When the PIP Feels Disingenuous: The Ethics of Managing Out 7 | 11

Episode at a Glance: PIPs & Managing Out

Radical Candor Podcast Resources: PIPs & Managing Out

• The Radical Candor Order of Operations | Radical Candor
• Managing Challenging Conversations At Work | Radical Candor
• What Does Managing Out Mean? | Radical Candor Podcast 6 | 6
• Performance Improvement Plans | Radical Candor Podcast 5 | 20
• The Measurement Problem | Radical Candor Podcast 3 | 7
• How To Gauge Your Feedback | Radical Candor
• Are You ‘Helping’ or Micromanaging? | Radical Candor Podcast 5 | 2
• Is Your Employee In The Wrong Job? Don’t Let Ruinous Empathy Ruin Your Team
• Absentee Management vs. Quiet Firing | Radical Candor Podcast 5 | 3

The TLDR Radical Candor Podcast Transcript

[00:00:00] Kim Scott: Hello everybody and welcome to the Radical Candor podcast. I’m Kim Scott. 

[00:00:07] Jason Rosoff: I’m Jason Rosoff. 

[00:00:09] Amy Sandler: And I’m Amy Sandler. Today we are answering a listener’s question about a challenging situation that touches on several important aspects of Radical Candor. So we’ll jump right in. This person writes quote, hello, I’m a middle manager on a small team and I have one report. My manager, who is the director of our department, had my role previously. So my report used to report to my manager. My manager asked me to put my report on a performance improvement plan, PIP. I met with the HR director individually and along with my manager, and we began the informal stage of the PIP in order to give my report the opportunity to meet the expectations for the role while documenting everything to provide to central HR for formal PIP approval. After three months of my report, continuing to not meet role expectations, our HR director filed for the formal PIP, which we expect to eventually lead to my report’s termination if they do not leave on their own accord before termination. I’m going to turn it over to Jason. 

[00:01:23] Jason Rosoff: It’s a long one. 

[00:01:24] Amy Sandler: It’s a long one.

[00:01:25] Jason Rosoff: The PIP process that my, they continue, the PIP process that my company follows feels a bit like managing out to me. And I’m struggling to find the best way to lean into the Radical Candor values while complying with HR direct. At this stage, my manager, our HR director, and I agree that my report is not the right fit for the role, but I have to wait until formal PIP conversation to express it. Every interaction, I have with my report, leading up to that conversation, feels disingenuous. Also following HR directives around resetting role expectations from my report and providing ongoing feedback and support in meeting those expectations led to high conflict between my report and me, resulting in loss of trust and unpleasant work environment. My report has reacted very poorly to my increased management and often challenges and pushes back, resulting in emotional fatigue and work inefficiency. I wonder if there’s a better way to manage the informal stage of the PIP process or if PIP is, or if the PIP is doing exactly what it’s intended to do, manage my report out. Sincerely, frustrated. 

[00:02:28] Amy Sandler: Very sincerely frustrated and we have recorded separate episodes on managing out on PIPs, the connection between performance development and management. We’ll put all those in the show notes, but our listener is sincerely frustrated and in quite a pickle. There’s a lot going on here. And Kim, I’d love for you to just start whatever’s leaping out at you first. 

[00:02:50] Kim Scott: So the first thing I want to say is I’m sorry for this person for being in this situation. And I think that that this person’s manager really did not do the right thing. This person’s manager should have managed this person out rather than passing them on and then say, manage this person out. That is lousy, a lousy, lousy, especially if this is this person’s first management experience, this is really, that’s kind of, um, kind of obnoxious to do to someone.

[00:03:24] Amy Sandler: Can, can I ask? So like it, that’s really interesting. Just tactically if, are you saying that before the, this person’s manager became the director, they should have started the PIP rather than sort of saying, congratulations, you’re in this job. Like take it on. 

[00:03:39] Kim Scott: Yeah, I wouldn’t, I would never promote someone to management, give them a direct report and then say, fire them. Especially if I had been managing that person previously. This person is passing on a really hard job to a first time manager. And that doesn’t feel right to me. 

[00:03:56] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. 

[00:03:57] Amy Sandler: Is it right for that person two layers above to manage the PIP? Like they should, even if there was, they had hired this new person and said, because you’re new here, I’m going to manage this process. Is that what you’re recommending? 

[00:04:10] Kim Scott: No, what I would say is let’s say I have an employee, Bob, who I think should be managed out. And then I promote, um, James over Bob. Like that’s the wrong thing to do. I can promote James, but not give James Bob to manage out. I would manage Bob out myself. I would 

[00:04:30] Amy Sandler: That’s what I was saying. So even though they’re like another layer below , you still would have owned it. Jason sounds like you have some.

[00:04:36] Kim Scott: No, I just wouldn’t have given them a direct report that I knew should be fired in the first place. 

[00:04:40] Jason Rosoff: Correct. You’re, uh, Amy, assuming that it has to be the, I don’t know that you’re assuming this. But the way you’re asking the question assumes that all the direct reports had to automatically report to this person.

[00:04:52] Amy Sandler: Gotcha. 

[00:04:52] Jason Rosoff: But that’s not usually the case, right? I can decide who the team is that this person is going to manage, that I’m promoting into management. I just didn’t have to put this person on that team. Um, and Kim, it’s funny that you say that because I have been, uh, the manager in this particular situation and I did exactly what you described. Which is, I basically said, I’m going to continue to manage this person until either things turn around or I, uh, I fire them essentially.

[00:05:21] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, that’s not the situation. That’s what should have happened. That’s not what, life is never ideal. So let’s deal with the situation this person is in and answer their question. But I just want to give them a little bit of sympathy for being in a situation they shouldn’t be in. 

[00:05:39] Amy Sandler: Well, and I want to, and we’ll get into where, the situation they’re in. But I wonder if there is a time for a radically candid conversation between our letter writer and their boss for having put them in this situation.

[00:05:52] Kim Scott: Well, let’s talk about that later. 

[00:05:55] Amy Sandler: Okay. 

[00:05:56] Kim Scott: Uh, it’s a good question. Um, I don’t think I would lead with that, uh, frankly. Given that the boss did that, they got boss clearly thought it was fine. And there, there may be more to the story that I don’t know. There may be a good reason for the boss having done that. So go ahead, Jason. 

[00:06:15] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. I was just going to say, it seems like the central theme of the question is, is, am I being manipulative by following through with this process? That’s like. 

[00:06:28] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. Yes.

[00:06:29] Jason Rosoff: The thesis, uh, the core tenant of the question. My, there’s something else, which is the results of going through the informal PIP were not great. 

[00:06:43] Kim Scott: Yes.

[00:06:43] Jason Rosoff: So like that was at the end, that basically said like this person got really upset when we started to, it sounds like, uh, really sort of focus in on their performance and give them a lot of feedback about how they were not meeting expectations. Like unsurprisingly, that led to a tense relationship between this new manager and their new direct report.

[00:07:05] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah. And so this person is not doing any, the fact that the situation is tense is unsurprising. Uh, in fact, it’s inevitable, uh, that the situation is tense. It doesn’t mean that this, that, uh, the person who wrote to us is doing anything wrong. And what I would say sort of to answer the core question, which is is this a disingenuous thing? I would answer no. I think what this person needs to do is to be crystal clear about what’s wrong and where the PIP is headed. So that this person can decide, do I want to resign or do I want to be fired? I mean, that’s basically the choice that, that the employee has at this point, uh, because they didn’t meet the PIP.

[00:07:56] Um, the only thing that would be disingenuous is if the, this person’s direct report does begin to meet the terms of the PIP and they fire them anyway, like that’s not fair. Um, that’s managing out in a way that’s unfair. But if you tell a person what the expectations are, the person doesn’t meet the expectations and then you formalize it with a writ, with a more formal PIP and they’re still not meeting expectations, the job is just to tell them that in every single, in every single one on one. Which is going to be unpleasant. It’s going to be unpleasant for the employee. It’s going to be unpleasant for the manager. There is nothing, um, there is nothing pleasant about this, but this is where kind is clear. 

[00:08:45] Amy Sandler: And just to be really clear. And obviously, we’re not exactly in this situation, but Kim what, what’s leaping out for me is the writer shared the stage that they’re in. Quote, my manager, our HR director and I agree that my report is not right for the role. But I have to wait until the formal PIP conversation to express it. And they’re saying it feels disingenuous because every interaction they have leading up to that conversation feels disingenuous.

[00:09:15] Kim Scott: Yes.

[00:09:15] Amy Sandler: So it’s not clear. They can be clear. 

[00:09:19] Kim Scott: No, I think that they can be clear. They can say in every single meeting, you’re not meeting expectations. That’s just no fun. You know, uh, you’re not meeting the PIP. I think that’s basically the conversation that they have to have over and over again. I think if I read between the lines is what this person is saying is, can’t we just fire them already? It doesn’t seem very nice to go through the performance improvement plan. But the law, in many instances, demands that you formalize, that you give a person to, um, an opportunity to fix the problem. Uh, and even if the law doesn’t demand it, I think fairness demands it. Because if you don’t have a formal performance improvement plan, what happens is that some managers think they’ve been clear, but they haven’t been clear, and then the employee is surprised when they get fired. So the idea of our performance improvement plan is to prevent that from happening. 

[00:10:19] Jason Rosoff: Yeah, to provide a formal check on the potential lack of clarity that an employee has about how they’re doing, uh, as compared to what’s expected of them. I think there’s another thing here, which is sometimes rigidly following a process that is well and, that is intended to like, follow the law, uh, can actually create a situation that is uh, open to legal scrutiny.

[00:10:49] So, like, I have seen things go wrong in PIPs that are too rigidly followed where the person starts to feel bullied or harassed because they feel like they’re constantly being told that they’re doing something wrong, and there’s all this. And so I just want to empathize for a moment, there’s an intuition that this manager has, which is like, if we really had a brass tax conversation with this person and said, you know, we don’t think this is, uh, this is going well, to your point, Kim, not that you can’t possibly improve, but we don’t think this is going well.

[00:11:24] They’ve already imagined that they’re going to pay this person for the rest of the PIP process. Like, what if they could just offer them to say, another alternative here is for us, we’ll pay you through the end of the PIP. But we’re, we’ll reduce your responsibilities to essentially like off the, you know, turning over the keys to somebody else, to give you time to look for, uh, another job, if you want. If you want to continue to try to meet expectations, we will work earnestly with you in order to do that. 

[00:11:55] Kim Scott: And most PIPs give the person that option. You could quit now and you’ll be paid out throughout the period of the PIP or you could keep trying. And then you’ll get two week severance or something like that. 

[00:12:09] Jason Rosoff: Correct, but it’s it doesn’t sound like that’s on the table. It seems like this person would have, given the amount of detail that they gave, it seems like they would have mentioned it. And I just wanted to call that out because I do think that if that’s not an option, then I better understand why it feels a bit like Damocles sword is hanging over. 

[00:12:27] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.

[00:12:27] Jason Rosoff: Like, hanging over their collective heads. Um, uh, and why it feels like you, there, there’s no way to have sort of a real conversation, uh, about it. I guess I’ll say, like, I one hundred percent agree with you, Kim, that, like, this is going to be tense, there’s no way for this to be, like, good vibes for everybody involved in this situation. 

[00:12:51] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:12:51] Jason Rosoff: Um, uh, and that stinks, like, that the manager is in this position, and I actually think that that discomfort is, like, it is appropriate in a situation like this, because like some set of failures has led to a situation where like a person is very likely to lose their job. I don’t think that should feel easy breezy for everybody. 

[00:13:13] Kim Scott: Yeah. No, it shouldn’t. 

[00:13:15] Jason Rosoff: Involved. So I think that, but accepting that this is going to be tense and maybe even giving voice to that to say, you know, they, because it sounds like they have quite a short relationship to say, I know we haven’t been working together very long and I know this is a difficult situation. And my goal is not to, to paper over the difficult work and emotions that we’re going to experience going through this and just know that, you know, I’m here, like I’m open to understanding when you’re frustrated or upset by the process. That might provide some relief. 

[00:13:50] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:13:51] Jason Rosoff: It might not. 

[00:13:51] Kim Scott: Yeah. No, I think it probably will. I mean, sometimes caring personally is about acknowledging the negative emotions that are in the room and not pretending that they’re otherwise. Um, I think that another thing this person could do to sort of move up on the care personally dimension in this very difficult situation, is to try to imagine a job that this person would be very good at. Like this person is their employee, is probably not terrible at everything that, you know, they’re not a bad person. They’re not a bad employee. They’re just bad at this particular job. And so figuring, thinking about what kind of job would this person excel at, uh, and noticing the traits that are really helpful, uh, to, that you really admire in the person, and say look, you’re really good at X, uh, but that’s not what is required in this role.

[00:14:56] There’s another job where, you know, where this talent that you have would be really welcome. Like for example, I had a, an employee who was really detail oriented and very into process. But we were at a startup and there was, nobody wanted any process. We didn’t need any process. And as I was in the process of telling him, a quick process, a non process process, uh, of explaining to him why this wasn’t working out, I acknowledge. Like you have some really wonderful skills. And the problem is that we don’t need those skills right now. Those skills are actually hurting you right now, but there are plenty of places where they would be a tremendous asset, but here they’re a liability.

[00:15:51] Amy Sandler: Yeah, I think that’s a really helpful frame. I mean, just going back to the emotion, acknowledging it, that’s extra sort of emotional effort for our letter writer. But it might have some real value in resetting the relationship. I wanted to also acknowledge, I want to get as clear as we can on this idea of kind of informal PIP conversation and formal PIP conversation. Because it felt to me that part of the feeling of disingenuous was a matter of where they were in the stage and they had to actually follow this process of informal versus formal. And Jason, I’m curious if you can just share for our listeners, like as frustrating as that might be for our letter writer, what is the value of that? Like why is that actually a beneficial thing kind of at a high level? 

[00:16:43] Jason Rosoff: Without understanding exactly what the process looks like, I’m going to make a couple of guesses here. But one, one benefit of the informal PIP process is one, you, let’s imagine this was, there was no manager switch. This was just like a, the person had been reporting this person for a long time. The informal PIP process requires consent from other people to say, we have evaluated your evaluation of this person, we actually agree that they are not meeting expectations. So, like, the person doesn’t just start winging it and say, like, Kim and I don’t get along, so I’m going to put Kim on an informal PIP process. Um, so that’s one advantage of the informal PIP process, is it requires you to like reach out to people and say, I need to get some explicit feedback from you about my assessment of this person. 

[00:17:32] The second thing that it does is it makes you accountable to your boss and your HR manager to give this person very clear feedback about where they’re not meeting expectations. And for you to document that, at least to some degree, so that, uh, your effort can be evaluated, your effort to communicate the problem can be evaluated. And to do all of that without creating explicit consequences, uh, without saying, like, at the end of this, something is going to happen to this person’s job, like the, that informal process, I think, could be really important, uh, because, the reason why PIPs feel so bad is like most people perform worse under scrutiny when they know they’re being evaluated, uh, that they start to, I mean, I experienced this all the time, you know, I can probably type a hundred and ten words a minute when I’m not typing in a, uh, a Zoom meeting. As soon as you put my screen up and I start typing in a Zoom meeting and it’s like, I’m back to Mavis Beacon, like seventh grade, uh, uh, that was a, 

[00:18:38] Kim Scott: I don’t know that reference, but I’m going along with it. 

[00:18:41] Jason Rosoff: Yeah, there is a program to teach people to type called Mavis Beacon teaches typing. I was like, I remember. 

[00:18:47] Amy Sandler: Is it like Amelia Bedelia drawing the curtains or is that a different, was it a real thing? 

[00:18:51] Jason Rosoff: Slightly different, but same kind of vein. So like, I actually think there’s a bunch of value in that informal PIP process, both to make sure that the manager is doing their job, and to hold them accountable to doing their job. And to create an opportunity for a person to respond to performance issues without a threat of some sort of consequence hanging over their head.

[00:19:14] So I don’t think it’s, uh, the hard part is when you get to the end of that process, and you’re like, this has not gone well. We have, we’ve seen no improvement. Um, it’s hard to hold out hope that formalizing it and saying, hey, we’re putting you on notice, like, this is now an official thing, HR is involved. We either need to see some performance improvement or you’re going to be terminated, essentially, at the end of, at the end of this process.

[00:19:44] Uh, and as Kim said, in, in some places, the law literally requires that people have that clear of an opportunity, uh, to address their performance. Um, but it feels really bad to have gone through the first part. Uh, and all I can say, the only thing I can offer that might help a little bit is the acknowledgement that, for the person on the receiving end of the informal process, there is some benefit to not having that consequence at the end. It actually increases, slightly increases the likelihood that they would be able to respond positively to the feedback. 

[00:20:16] Kim Scott: I think that as a manager, one of the reasons why people, I mean, everybody hates PIPs, let’s, uh, let’s just put that on the table. And I think a PIP is really, I think it’s a good process. Uh, and the reason is that. 

[00:20:32] Amy Sandler: That is high praise from someone who’s not such a fan of process. 

[00:20:35] Kim Scott: Yes, a process. Yes. I’m not a fan of process and at a startup, I wouldn’t do a PIP. But at a big company, I would, um, put PIPs in place. And the reason is that, uh, as we have said many times on this podcast, the biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has happened. And so often what’ll happen is a manager will be saying something, giving some feedback to the direct report and the direct report won’t have heard it. And usually the manager then has decided, okay. I need to fire this person. And what these two, the informal and the formal processes do, is they put some checks and balances on this, on the situation, which is always good if you have power, it’s good to have checks and balances on your power. 

[00:21:27] And so the informal one is a way of making sure that other people agree with your assessment. And it should help you be more clear. Uh, however, no matter how clear you are, there’s still going to be some people who won’t have heard it. And that’s why, not only do you say it, you start writing it down and documenting. So that, uh, so that it is, uh, indubitably clear to this, to this direct report. And sometimes that feels like a legal C. Y. A. thing. But, and sometimes it is, I want to acknowledge that. But I think there’s really good, there are good reasons for this.

[00:22:17] Amy Sandler: Kind of building on that, Kim, I wonder if you have specific tips on what our listener could actually say. The point where they say my report has reacted very poorly to my increased management and often challenges and pushes back. Like phrases that they could say to kind of demonstrate why they’re saying what they’re saying. Like, obviously, it’s an uncomfortable thing. But what did you find worked as well as it could have in a difficult situation of trying to build that rapport with the person? 

[00:22:50] Kim Scott: There was one time when I was firing someone and, because there was a pattern of problems. And this had all been documented, and this person was extremely defensive. And so every time I would give an example, I couldn’t even get to the second example. Because they would go so far down the rabbit hole on why that wasn’t really a problem. And finally, I said, you know, time out. I want you to notice the same pattern that I am noticing. I’m going to give you five examples of this problem. And I do not want to be interrupted until I get to the fifth. I promise you at the end, I will give you an opportunity to spend as much time on each one as you want. But I want you to notice the same pattern I’m noticing.

[00:23:38] And by the time I got to the fifth, this part that like, this person understood it was time to go and quit arguing. So sometimes go, and this is part of the value of writing it all down in the performance improvement plan too. Um, but just saying to the person, look, I promise I’m going to listen, but I want you to understand the same thing I’m understanding. Uh, and making it clear, I think also to this person that they cannot argue their way out of this situation. That they can, they could perform their way out of this situation, but they cannot argue their way out of this situation. 

[00:24:23] Amy Sandler: Jason, any adds? 

[00:24:25] Jason Rosoff: That’s so helpful. 

[00:24:26] Amy Sandler: Yeah. 

[00:24:26] Jason Rosoff: Like the, I’m feeling a lot of empathy for the person in this situation, especially if they’re relatively new to management. Like all the things that Kim and I have been describing, these are the things that we did after we made all the mistakes. Like, uh, there, there’s just, I just, I feel this like well up of emotion for this person because it’s so hard, like, like, and you do feel caught between like, as a manager, especially if you haven’t been through this process before, you’ve never seen it done particularly well. You do sort of feel like you’re following orders without necessarily fully understanding why you’re being asked to do it.

[00:25:11] So that’s why I’m hopeful that the explanation of like why this is useful might be helpful to this person. Is to say, understand like why what you’re being asked to do might actually be helpful. But like some of it is really subtle in like how you approach these individual conversations with this person. You haven’t had a long time to develop a great relationship or even any relationship with this person before you’re sort of thrown into this. And I think it can be, it can feel like you’re walking around in a minefield, essentially, like that, that’s, I’m guessing what his day to day feels like anytime there’s an interaction or their day to day looks like anytime there’s an interaction, uh, with this person on their calendar, right, which is like, uh, I better, you know, get my dancing shoes on because I’m going to be tip toeing through the tulips here.

[00:26:04] Kim Scott: Yeah, I think, I think here’s some maybe helpful hints or maybe not helpful, you all can tell me if you think they’re helpful or not, for going into the one on ones with this direct report. Because it’s, uh, you got to feel, you got to wake up on the days when you have a one on one with a pit in your stomach.

[00:26:20] Amy Sandler: I have a pit for the PIP already. 

[00:26:22] Kim Scott: Yeah. So, I think what, one thing that has helped me in this situation is for me, before I go in, to think of two things. First of all, to think of a job that I suck at. I know I don’t suck, but I did suck at that job. And, uh, and then, because I think that one of the mistakes that, that one can make in this situation is to decide you feel bad, at least here’s what has happened to me mentally. I feel terrible that I have to fire this person. And in order to sort of overcome these feelings of guilt and these awful feelings that I have. I decide that I have to fire this person because they’re a worthless human being, and that is not the case. That is not why you are firing this person. So I think managing your own feelings of guilt and discomfort with the situation and reminding yourself this person is going to be great at some job.

[00:27:21] This person is a wonderful human being as all human beings are. But this is not the right job for this person and part of your job as a manager is to be crystal clear with people when they’re in the wrong job so that they can go find the right job. It’s not an act of kindness to allow a person to continue to do a job that they’re not good at. So remind yourself that it’s not mean and that kind as clear as you go in. So that’s number one, number two. And this was suggested to me by a leader who I really admire. He said, when he has to fire someone, before he goes in to have the conversation or when he’s in the process of conducting a PIP, before he walks into the room, he imagines the face of someone he loves. And that puts him in this different kind of mindset. Uh, when he goes into the room to remind himself, this is a person, this is a human being who I need to treat this human being with respect, even though this is a really hard situation.

[00:28:28] Amy Sandler: I think those are great tips. Um, this might be a little devil’s advocate, Kim, but on the first one around, you know, especially thinking about things this person could be good at or other roles. I’m just aware, even from my own experience that on the disingenuous side, if this person can’t explicitly say because they’re still in the informal period, they can’t say you’re out of a job. What they can say is, you know, you’re not meeting expectations. You’re not meeting expectations. I wonder if it may land disingenuous or what aren’t you telling me if you’re saying, but Amy, what would you really like to be doing instead? Or what’s something else? Like, is there, how can that inquiry be from a place of actually trying to be helpful rather than it coming from, well, because I can’t tell you you’re going to be fired. I’m now asking you this other line of inquiry. 

[00:29:20] Kim Scott: I didn’t say ask the person what else they, think about skills that they have and point out those skills. Like you can still give praise. You can say, you know, I noticed in that meeting that, uh, that you told a really funny joke and you’re funny. And I love that about you. Unfortunately, It doesn’t always, you know, humor was not the right thing in that kind of meeting or something like that. Like let the person know, you don’t want to give person praise thinking, oh, I do more of that and I’ll keep this job. But you can still point out to the person that they have these other skills that you do notice and that you do appreciate and that are worthwhile. They’re just not relevant to this job. 

[00:30:05] Amy Sandler: Really helpful. 

[00:30:06] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. This person could be exactly right about everything that they’ve said or there’s the potential that there’s some misunderstanding. So one of the things that I’m leaving with, like, meta, but not just in one on ones. I think an interesting question to go back to the HR person and their boss with is what can, like, what am I being restricted from saying in these conversations and what am I allowed to say? Because here’s what I’d like to say. I would like to say the following things to this person. Because I think it’s actually going to help us resolve this situation faster and with less animosity. 

[00:30:45] Kim Scott: Yes. 

[00:30:46] Jason Rosoff: Because that’s what they want, right? They want to resolve the situation as smoothly as possible. And so by offering them a pathway, so I think that might be a worthwhile conversation is just to lay on the table, like the thing that’s in their head, because maybe they think they’re being prohibited from saying it, but they might be wrong. Like maybe they go to their manager and the HR person, they say, Oh, actually, it’s okay for you to say that. We’re not saying don’t say that. 

[00:31:11] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:31:13] Jason Rosoff: But at least then they would know. 

[00:31:14] Kim Scott: Yeah. Another thing this person could do is they could ask either their manager or HR to go into these meetings with them. Sometimes it’s useful to have two people and to give them feedback. I will say there was one time when I had someone who was working for me, who was a first time manager and they had to fire someone on their team. And I didn’t go to the meeting with them because I thought, ah, you know, I don’t want to undermine them. I know, you know, I don’t want to micromanage. And this person just made a hash of it. And I regret, I felt so bad later. I was like, I did not set this person up for success. I should have gone to the meeting with them. And if things started going sideways, I could grab the steering, you know. 

[00:32:04] So I think that when it comes time to have the final conversation, if the person who wrote in has never fired anyone, it’s perfectly reasonable to ask your boss or HR to go in for that conversation with you. And to give you feedback afterwards about how it went and also sort of, I’m teaching my children to drive right now. So to grab, and occasionally one has to grab the steering wheel, uh, and it’s good, you know, I wouldn’t let them drive alone, uh, nor would it be legal to, but I think for the same reason, it might be good to have someone else in the room, um, with them when they have to have the last conversation. 

[00:32:45] Jason Rosoff: I feel like we’ve had lots of, uh, we’ve shared lots of ideas for ways that this person could think about this, uh, potential things that they could try. I wonder if you want to wrap up with a couple of tips. 

[00:32:59] Amy Sandler: I think tips sound great. And then I’ll, after the tips, I’d love to get one final recommendation for what and when the letter writer can say to their boss about, you know, having been put in this position at the top. So I’m giving you a little time to, to noodle on that as we head into our Radical Candor checklist, which are tips so that you can start putting Radical Candor into practice.

[00:33:27] Jason Rosoff: Tip number one. While PIPs can feel like they’re just leading to termination, they can also offer a real opportunity for growth if approached with Radical Candor. As you move into the sort of more formal stage of the process, keep the compassionate and clear communication going. Make sure your report knows that the PIPs goal is not just about meeting current role expectations, but also about them finding a place where they can really shine if you’re allowed to. Uh, and even if that means eventually transitioning out of the team, I think finding a way to communicate that this is, uh, might be the end of this role, but not, uh, a judgment about them as a person is really important. Uh, if you stay open and sincere, you can help your report see the bigger picture and make better choices for their career.

[00:34:15] Amy Sandler: Tip number two. If you feel like the PIP is being used primarily to manage someone out rather than allowing them an opportunity to improve, it may be worth discussing with your HR representative and your manager if there are alternative roles or paths for your report that align better with their strengths and using some of these conversations as an opportunity to highlight your direct reports strengths. If you’re not clear on what you can and can’t say, you certainly can, you know, can check in with your HR team member, as well as your manager. 

[00:34:52] Kim Scott: Tip number three. Don’t lead the person on. Acknowledge the gap in performance and acknowledge the fact that it may not be fixable. Help them to take ownership of their next steps. Try framing it in the following kind of ways. I want to be honest with you. We’ve been working on these performance expectations for a while, and I know this prostrate, this process has been frustrating for us both. At this point it’s clear that the role isn’t aligning with your strengths, and I want to support you in figuring out what’s next.

[00:35:25] Uh, if your HR person says, don’t say that, I want to be clear that this is not headed in the right direction, you could also say. Uh, you could also ask this person, you know, what kind of work makes you feel energized or you could point out when you notice that they’ve been doing work that makes them feel energized, point it out and say this, you were really good at this. Uh, unfortunately that’s not the job, but you are good at this thing. Uh, you could, uh, you could ask the person, where do you think your skills are best applied and ask the person, how can I help you explore other opportunities that might be a better fit? Although again, ask HR, uh, before you ask that question.

[00:36:05] Amy Sandler: All right. And before we close Jason or Kim, any tips on what should our letter writer say to their manager? 

[00:36:13] Kim Scott: So don’t say Kim Scott said you’re a terrible manager. That’s my first bit of advice. Um, I, because again, I do have compassion for this manager. I’ve made this mistake before. I think what I would do is say, why did you decide to, uh, have me manage this PIP instead of, uh, managing it, instead of firing the person before I became a manager, like I felt, you could say, if you felt this way, I felt like I was a little bit thrown into the deep end of management. My very first management role. 

[00:36:49] Jason Rosoff: Yeah, I think that the point of trying to understand the, why the situation is the way it is really valuable. And I think it would be, it seems to me that it would be pretty useful, at some point, to do some kind of post mortem on this whole process and say, like, what have we learned from this process that we can take forward to avoid making mistakes or to like do, you know, repeat some of the things that worked, uh, that, that worked out well. 

[00:37:25] Amy Sandler: All right. Well, thank you both. And for more tips, check out our YouTube channel where you can not only listen to this podcast, but also watch dozens of other Radical Candor videos. You can get this podcast early and ad free when you join our community at Radical Candor.com/community. And the show notes for this episode are at Radical Candor.com/podcast. As we like to say praise in public, criticize in private. So if you like what you hear, we hope you do please do follow, rate, and review us wherever you listen to your podcast. It really does help. And we also appreciate getting your criticism. Please email that to podcast@RadicalCandor.com as well as challenges and questions. Thank you again for our listener writing in and we are with you and hoping for the best possible outcome. Bye for now. 

[00:38:21] Kim Scott: Take care everybody.

[00:38:22] Amy Sandler: The Radical Candor podcast is based on the book, Radical Candor: Be a Kick Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity by Kim Scott. Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by me, Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by me, still Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn, Radical Candor, the company and visit us at RadicalCandor.com.

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Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer.

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