Kim and Jacob Morgan, author of Leading with Vulnerability, discuss the power of vulnerability in leadership and its role in building trust and driving performance. They explore the common misconceptions about vulnerability, the balance between competence and connection, and how to navigate the fine line between strength and openness.
Listen to the episode:
Episode at a Glance: Vulnerability in Leadership
Jacob shares stories of successful and failed leadership, emphasizing the importance of choosing the right moments to be vulnerable. The conversation also touches on how to foster psychological safety, deal with workplace bullies, and follow with vulnerability in challenging environments.
Listen now to Discover the risks, rewards, and real-world examples of leaders who embraced vulnerability to foster trust and inspire their teams.
Key Takeaways:
- Vulnerability is essential for building trust and driving performance, but it’s important to be strategic about when and with whom you share.
- Confronting those who misuse vulnerability is crucial for setting boundaries and maintaining healthy relationships.
- Following with vulnerability can empower employees to speak up and contribute more effectively.
- Remembering the fundamental attribution error can help us approach challenging situations with more empathy and understanding.
- Psychological safety is essential, but it shouldn’t come at the expense of accountability.
- Leaders who lead with vulnerability create a culture where everyone can thrive.
Radical Candor Podcast Resources
- Denial: Why Business Leaders Fail to Look Facts in the Face—and What to Do About It | Richard Tedlow
- Leading with Vulnerability: Unlock Your Greatest Superpower to Transform Yourself, Your Team, and Your Organization | Jacob Morgan
- Performance Improvement Plans | Radical Candor Podcast 5 | 20
- What Does Managing Out Mean? | Radical Candor Podcast 6 | 6
- Beware The Fundamental Attribution Error | Radical Candor Podcast 5 | 8
- How To Give Candid Feedback Using The CORE Method | Radical Candor
- 5 Proven Ways Checks And Balances In Management Bolster Teams | Radical Candor
- Follow these 4 steps to create psychological safety in your teams | Fast Company
- Shrill | Lindy West
- The Vulnerable Leader Equation: A critical leadership development model for successful change management | HRD
- Jacob Morgan
- Fortune lists tough bosses | UPI Archives
- Can Workplaces Have Too Much Psychological Safety? | HBR
The TLDR Radical Candor Podcast Transcript
[00:00:00] Amy Sandler: Hello, and welcome to the Radical Candor podcast. I’m Amy Sandler. And today we’ve got Kim Scott with Jacob Morgan. Jacob is the author of Leading with Vulnerability. And Kim and Jacob have a candid conversation about how leaders can embrace vulnerability to create more trust, unlock potential, drive business performance, and lead through change.
[00:00:24] So listen and learn how you too can develop your very own vulnerable leader equation to transform yourself, your team and your organization.
[00:00:38] Kim Scott: Jacob Morgan is the author of Lead with Vulnerability. Uh, and Jacob, you know, you and I were just chatting about what it’s like to have a book whose title is often misinterpreted. Radical Candor is often, uh, misunderstood as an excuse to act like a jerk. So, Jacob, talk to me about Lead with Vulnerability and what you really intended by this title and how sometimes people misinterpret it.
[00:01:11] Jacob Morgan: Yeah, you know, I also struggled with the book title. I wish I could remember what some of the other titles were. But it was a challenge because the whole idea of, and by the way, before we even get into that, the whole message of the book is don’t be vulnerable at work.
[00:01:26] Kim Scott: Yes, which is surprising.
[00:01:28] Jacob Morgan: Yes, which sounds a little counterintuitive to the title, which is Leading with Vulnerability.
[00:01:32] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:01:32] Jacob Morgan: But the way that we can think about it is vulnerability is about exposing a gap that you have. It could be a gap in intelligence, competence, wisdom, experience, whatever it might be. Leading with vulnerability is about exposing that gap that you have, but then demonstrating what you’re trying to do to close the gap.
[00:01:48] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:01:49] Jacob Morgan: And in the context of work, this makes a big difference. Because you have customers, you have employees, leaders, projects, deadlines, and you’re being paid a salary. And so simply just expressing your discomfort, talking about your challenges, sharing all the areas where you’re struggling. That’s not necessarily a good thing when you have so many people looking to you to do a job
[00:02:11] Kim Scott: To solve that.
[00:02:11] Jacob Morgan: To do a job that you’re being paid to do. So that’s really what the idea of Leading with Vulnerability is about. How do you bring together competence and connection, leadership and vulnerability?
[00:02:21] Kim Scott: Yeah, it’s sort of like my son’s baseball coach. One day I was watching practice, baseball practice. And they were doing a drill where they had to run and touch all the bases, run the bases. And one kid kept missing the base as he was running around. And the coach was really sort of making it very clear to him that he had not hit the base. And the kid got up, you know, little tears, they were young at this point. And the coach said to him, look, you can’t do right if you don’t know what you’re doing wrong. And it’s my job to tell you what you’re doing wrong. I’m not trying to be mean. I’m trying to help you be a better player.
[00:03:04] Jacob Morgan: Yeah.
[00:03:04] Kim Scott: And I think a lot of times the vulnerability is the willingness to acknowledge that you didn’t hit the base. And then to talk about what you’re doing to make sure you hit the base next time. ‘Cause you’re right. We can’t do right if we don’t know what we’re doing wrong.
[00:03:23] Jacob Morgan: Yeah, I mean, a very classic example is when you talk about a mistake. You know, it’s one thing to show up to work and admit to your boss, hey, I made a mistake, I’m really sorry. It’s another thing to say, I made a mistake. Here’s what I learned from that mistake and here’s what I’m going to do in the future to make sure that mistake doesn’t happen again.
[00:03:37] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:03:39] Jacob Morgan: Uh, and that’s what we need to do a better job of doing.
[00:03:42] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:03:42] Jacob Morgan: Vulnerability is okay, but bring the leadership to the vulnerability.
[00:03:45] Kim Scott: Yes. You know, it seems to me like to a certain extent, what you’re writing is about is making sure as a leader that you don’t go into denial. Richard Tedlow wrote a really interesting book called Denial about how frequently leaders, uh, when they make a mistake or when they don’t know how to solve a problem, go into denial about it. Why do leaders do, why is denial such a problem for leaders?
[00:04:14] Jacob Morgan: Well, it’s funny. Uh, so I interviewed a hundred CEOs for this book and pretty much all of them said that growing up, um, and not growing up when they were younger, but growing up kind of in the business world. They were all told when they worked for companies, when they went to get their MBAs, leaders do not apologize, leaders do not admit to mistakes, leaders do not show emotion. Some of these people worked with people like Jack Welch.
[00:04:38] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:04:38] Jacob Morgan: So this is kind of like.
[00:04:40] Kim Scott: The man who broke capitalism.
[00:04:42] Jacob Morgan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I interviewed him on my podcast too. And, you know, Jack Welch was a very authentic leader, like you knew his emotions. He didn’t hide anything, but he was not a very vulnerable leader.
[00:04:51] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:04:51] Jacob Morgan: And so it’s not that I think a lot of leaders today are bad, but that’s just how they were taught.
[00:04:56] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:04:56] Jacob Morgan: That’s just what they experienced. And um, you know, it’s not the right way to lead, but at the time that was acceptable. That was the standard. I don’t know if you remember, uh, I think it was Fortune magazine. They used to publish an annual, uh, America’s toughest bosses. And I think it was in the 80s, the 90s, maybe even in the 70s. And it was a badge of honor to be on the cover of that magazine. And it was a badge of honor to work for one of those types of leaders.
[00:05:23] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:05:23] Jacob Morgan: And they would share all sorts of crazy stories. This boss is so tough. And you know, you work for him and he does this.
[00:05:29] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:05:30] Jacob Morgan: And it was like, I can’t imagine something like that happening today.
[00:05:35] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:05:35] Jacob Morgan: Which is wild. But a lot of leaders do it because that’s what they were taught. The vulnerability is scary, it’s uncomfortable, it’s unpleasant. And the number one thing when we ask fourteen thousand employees, why aren’t you vulnerable at work? Is they say, we don’t want to be perceived as being weak or incompetent.
[00:05:53] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:05:53] Jacob Morgan: So we associate vulnerability with incompetence.
[00:05:57] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:05:57] Jacob Morgan: Yeah. And the way that you get over that is you add competence to the vulnerability.
[00:06:03] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:06:04] Jacob Morgan: I made a mistake, but here’s what I learned. I need help, but here’s what I’m going to do to solve my problem in the future.
[00:06:10] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:06:10] Jacob Morgan: Like a very classic example is if you’re a first time leader. And oftentimes new leaders, they talk to their employees and they say, hey, you know, I’m new here. I’m really nervous. I’ve never done this before, but you know, we’re going to do a great job, like go team.
[00:06:21] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:06:22] Jacob Morgan: Vulnerable.
[00:06:23] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:06:24] Jacob Morgan: Bad message.
[00:06:25] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:06:26] Jacob Morgan: Adding the leadership piece. I’m a first time leader, I’ve never done this before, I’m super nervous. But to help make sure I’m the best leader you’ve ever had, I’m getting coaching and mentoring, uh, from Sally who works in marketing. I have an executive coach. Here are three books that I’m reading. And my door’s always open for your feedback. Vulnerable added the leadership piece.
[00:06:45] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.
[00:06:45] Jacob Morgan: It’s a different way, right? It’s a, you get perceived differently.
[00:06:48] Kim Scott: Yeah. What is your favorite story of a strong leader who expressed their strength through vulnerability? You interviewed so many great leaders. You have so many great stories in this book. What’s, I mean, you don’t have to say it. What’s one you wanna tell us now? I’m not gonna make you pick favorites.
[00:07:07] Jacob Morgan: Yeah, there’s a few. I mean, I can give you like a, um, a bad story of what happened to a leader and then I can give you kind of a positive one.
[00:07:16] Kim Scott: Let’s do that.
[00:07:17] Jacob Morgan: Yeah. So this CEO that I interviewed after she told me this story and I put it in the book, she then told me she didn’t want to be identified.
[00:07:24] Kim Scott: Okay.
[00:07:25] Jacob Morgan: Oh, I changed her name, but she’s the CEO of a large telecommunications company, uh, in Europe. So I’ll leave it at that. And um, she told me this story where early on in her career, she wasn’t the CEO at the time. She was an executive working for a different organization, also a large company.
[00:07:41] And uh, she was working for another, uh, a lady, a CEO at the time. And, and she was vulnerable with the CEO and she’s like, you know, I, um, I don’t have a lot of confidence. I didn’t come up through the ranks and the kind of the traditional, uh, educational background. I didn’t go to college. And she, and this was over time, not like one session, she just unburdened herself.
[00:08:02] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:08:03] Jacob Morgan: But you know, she was comfortable sharing who she was and what she cared about and what she valued and about her family with her CEO at the time. And over time, she would notice just like weird things happening. So one day she went on vacation and she came back from vacation and she noticed that her office used to be next door to the CEO and all of a sudden it got moved three doors down.
[00:08:21] Kim Scott: Weird. While she was on vacation.
[00:08:24] Jacob Morgan: Yep, while she was on vacation. She would notice that employees on her team, like her high performers, would all of a sudden get moved to other teams without her being notified.
[00:08:34] Kim Scott: Oh my gosh.
[00:08:35] Jacob Morgan: She would be in meetings and the CEO would kind of poke jabs at her and make fun of her, um, for certain things that she was doing. Uh, finally their CEO said, you know what? We need to hire you an executive coach because you’re struggling in these areas. And she’s like, okay, fine. So she gets this executive coach and she finds out later that this executive coach is reporting everything that she’s sharing with her back to the CEO.
[00:08:58] Kim Scott: Oh my gosh. What kind of executive coach, uh, does that? Like,
[00:09:02] Jacob Morgan: This was, it was like a spy novel.
[00:09:05] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:09:06] Jacob Morgan: It’s like, it’s crazy. And finally, the CEO’s like, look. We got to put you on our performing improvement plan. You’re not doing a good job here. And this lady’s like, I’m done.
[00:09:16] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:09:16] Jacob Morgan: I’m out of here.
[00:09:17] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:09:18] Jacob Morgan: And, uh, and I asked her afterwards, I said, you know, you were vulnerable with the CEO and she clearly used what you shared with her against you.
[00:09:27] Kim Scott: Against you. Yeah.
[00:09:29] Jacob Morgan: Are you ever going to be vulnerable with anybody else ever again? And she’s like, absolutely. And I said, how could you say that, you were vulnerable. This woman tried to destroy your career.
[00:09:37] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:09:37] Jacob Morgan: And like, you know, end you. Why would you ever be vulnerable with anybody else? And she said, because what it did is it taught me that I need to do a better job of being vulnerable and leading with vulnerability with people that are looking out for me.
[00:09:53] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:09:54] Jacob Morgan: With organizations that align to my values and have my best interest at heart.
[00:09:57] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:09:58] Jacob Morgan: And she said that what she did after that situation is she really just took a step back and said, what did I learn about myself? What did I learn about the other person, the company, the culture, and how can I apply these things going forward to make sure that I have better experiences?
[00:10:11] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:10:11] Jacob Morgan: And I thought that was a really powerful and important lesson that she shared. So that’s kind of a, um, a bad story.
[00:10:17] Kim Scott: Yeah. So I think that’s, uh, so let’s, before we go to the good story, let’s double click on the bad story. ‘Cause I think you said some, a bunch of things that were really important. One is that just because someone took advantage of your vulnerability doesn’t mean that you never should be vulnerable again.
[00:10:35] Jacob Morgan: Yeah.
[00:10:35] Kim Scott: Because vulnerability is essential to forming good relationships.
[00:10:41] Jacob Morgan: Yep.
[00:10:41] Kim Scott: And if someone shows you that you can’t have a good relationship with them because they take advantage of your vulnerability, that’s a shame, but shame on them. Not shame on you for showing your vulnerability. Uh, you, you can’t, Lindy West talks about this, uh, in her writings, uh, and one of my favorite books, Shrill, is you’ve got to, even though sometimes people will take advantage of your vulnerability.
[00:11:09] If you want to become the person you want to be and you want to have the relationships that you want to have, you’ve got to continue to allow yourself to be vulnerable. But not once you recognize that someone is going to take advantage of your vulnerability, stop. Stop.
[00:11:25] Jacob Morgan: Yes. Yeah.
[00:11:27] Kim Scott: Absolutely.
[00:11:27] Jacob Morgan: Yeah. And the one promise that I can make to anybody listening and watching is that at some point in your life, vulnerability will be used against you.
[00:11:36] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:11:37] Jacob Morgan: But the good news is it’s not going to happen nearly as often as you think. It will happen, but it’s not going to happen all the time.
[00:11:43] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:11:43] Jacob Morgan: And this is why, so one of the things that I talk about in the book are these eight attributes of vulnerable leaders, and one of them is self compassion.
[00:11:49] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:11:49] Jacob Morgan: And self compassion is basically this idea of how you talk to yourself. Um, giving yourself a safe place to land, so to speak. And the reason why this is important is because if you don’t have self compassion, then in these situations that go against you, you’re going to beat yourself up to the point where you’re going to say, you’re such an idiot, you’re such a moron, how could you do this? I’m never going to be vulnerable again.
[00:12:09] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:12:10] Jacob Morgan: If you have self compassion, you’re going to say, hey, you know what? It’s okay. Um, you can, you know, take what you’ve learned, apply it somewhere else. Don’t beat yourself up. Life goes on. You’re going to be okay. And it gives you that kind of safety net so that you can be vulnerable again in the future.
[00:12:27] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:12:28] Jacob Morgan: You know, I interviewed a psychologist named Sim Sitkin. He’s at the Fuqua School of Business. And he said that in academic literature, there are twenty-two different definitions of trust. And every single one of them have to do with vulnerability.
[00:12:40] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:12:40] Jacob Morgan: Meaning that you cannot have trust without vulnerability.
[00:12:43] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. You can’t have a relationship without vulnerability.
[00:12:46] Jacob Morgan: Exactly. And there is a right and a wrong way to approach vulnerability. And the, and you just kind of alluded to it. And that is that if you don’t know who you’re, I have this framework. It’s called the vulnerability wheel. And there are five components in there and I won’t go through all of them, but kind of at the center of this is intention. So why are you being vulnerable? If you don’t know the why, don’t do it. Simple as that. But one of the other elements of that wheel are, who are you being vulnerable with?. If you’re being vulnerable with somebody who you don’t know, you don’t know if they have your best intentions in mind, you know, maybe they’re out to get you. If you don’t know that, or if you kind of get a bad sense from them, don’t be vulnerable with them.
[00:13:24] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:13:24] Jacob Morgan: Uh, and too often we don’t think through these different elements of why, who?
[00:13:30] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:13:30] Jacob Morgan: The situation, we just kind of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and that doesn’t go well.
[00:13:34] Kim Scott: So I think, I sort of feel like, and this may be like a function of privilege, but I feel like for me, I feel pretty safe being vulnerable with, I mean, as soon as someone demonstrates to me that they’re going to take advantage of it, then I’ll shut it down.
[00:13:52] But I, but it’s pretty easy for me to be vulnerable with a wide variety of people. But that may not be, and that’s like how privilege compounds, right? So, the fact that it’s safe for me to take risks with a wide variety of people means that it’s easier for me to build relationships with a wide variety of people. Whereas a bunch of people who I’ve, who I talked to, especially as I was writing Radical Respect, said they, they have to assume that it’s not safe for them to be vulnerable.
[00:14:25] So how do we break through this, uh, this situation where there’s such an advantage to assuming good intent? But a lot of people have a lot of data that shows that it’s not safe for them to assume good intent.
[00:14:43] Jacob Morgan: Well, I don’t think you should ever assume anything. Uh, I mean, I don’t feel safe a lot of times to be vulnerable because I’m very uncomfortable with vulnerability. I uh, I went pretty much my entire adult working life not being vulnerable because that’s what I was taught. I was raised by two immigrant parents who came from the former USSR. And growing up, my dad always said, don’t share emotion. Don’t talk about your feelings.
[00:15:06] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:15:06] Jacob Morgan: Nobody cares about your problems.
[00:15:07] Kim Scott: And it wasn’t safe in the USSR? May not.
[00:15:10] Jacob Morgan: No. No. And vulnerability for me is super uncomfortable. Like even with friends and family, like I do not like vulnerability. And it’s funny because I interviewed some CEOs who are more comfortable with vulnerability and others who are not. And, you know, so many different reasons why you might be comfortable, why you might not, where you’re raised, how you grew up, your experiences.
[00:15:29] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:15:30] Jacob Morgan: I mean, the list can go on and on and on for why people are more comfortable with it and why they’re not. Uh, but I don’t think you can ever assume, but you can’t assume anything about anything. So for example, when you ask for a promotion, when you ask for a raise, if you ask somebody out on a date for the first time, you can never make assumptions. It’s one of those things where you have to do it.
[00:15:51] Kim Scott: And see what happens.
[00:15:52] Jacob Morgan: And see what happens.
[00:15:54] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:15:54] Jacob Morgan: You know, but there are smart ways that you can do it. There are good ways that you can approach it. So for example, uh, you’re not just going to go up to somebody you don’t know inside your company and like, oh, my family this, and I have my dad, they’re like,
[00:16:07] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:16:08] Jacob Morgan: That’s not smart.
[00:16:09] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:16:09] Jacob Morgan: But paying attention to your intention. Like what’s the goal? Like, I have something that I want to share with this person. Why do I want to share this? What is the outcome that I’m hoping to achieve? Who’s the person that I’m sharing it with? They have my best intentions in mind. Um, the timing. Is now a good time to be sharing this vulnerability? Like, what’s going on in my life, the person’s life, the business?
[00:16:29] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:16:29] Jacob Morgan: Um, you know, where? Like, are we sitting in some sort of a crowded bar or are we in a, in an office where we can have that conversation? Professionalism makes it different.
[00:16:38] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:16:39] Jacob Morgan: Um, so for example, if you go to a doctor and like you don’t want your doctor to look at you and say, oh my God, I’ve never seen this before.
[00:16:47] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:16:47] Jacob Morgan: And they’re like crying and freaking out and they’re being so vulnerable. I don’t know. Oh my God. Get in here, you guys got to see that. Like you don’t want that.
[00:16:54] Kim Scott: Yeah. I have seen a time when a doctor didn’t know and they pulled out a book to look it up. And I was like, I’m glad they’re pulling it, like I’m glad they’re looking it up. But I wasn’t like, what do you think about that as a doctor showing vulnerability?
[00:17:12] Jacob Morgan: Oh, man. I would feel weird if I was in a doctor’s office and the doctor was like, hang on a second, I gotta look this up, whoa…. I need a second and a third opinion after talking to you.
[00:17:23] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.
[00:17:25] Jacob Morgan: So yeah, I mean, but professionalism there matters. Like, even though the doctor comes in there and they see something terrible, they’re going to be professional.
[00:17:33] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:17:33] Jacob Morgan: Similarly, if you’re a leader inside of an organization and let’s say an employee is giving a talk for the first time. You as a leader are not going to say, who the hell hired you? That was the worst thing I’ve ever heard. Like, who let you into the building? Get out of here.
[00:17:46] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:17:46] Jacob Morgan: That’s not professional.
[00:17:48] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:17:48] Jacob Morgan: Right? So professionalism also makes a difference. So the, that’s the wheel basically that I walk people through.
[00:17:54] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:17:54] Jacob Morgan: So walk through those five things. Uh, the intention, uh, who am I being vulnerable with? Uh, you know, where am I being vulnerable? You know, the timing, the professionalism, all that stuff matters. And if you can walk through that wheel and you kind of check all those things off, I have the intention. Now’s the good time. Yes, I can be professional. Yes, this person has my best interest in mind. Yes, now is the right timing. Go for it.
[00:18:17] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:18:17] Jacob Morgan: Um, and then if it doesn’t go your way, that’s where the self compassion comes into play. But you can’t, you’re never going to predict, you’re never going to know what the outcome is. But that’s why vulnerability is vulnerability.
[00:18:28] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:18:29] Jacob Morgan: Because it makes you uncomfortable and it’s weird and it’s, you know, it makes everybody feel, you know, unpleasant.
[00:18:36] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. So let’s go back to your story, the story of vulnerability, not working out. I think that this leader that you were describing had a re, she, she didn’t know for sure whether her boss had her best, uh, you know, had her back. But it should have been the case that her boss had her back.
[00:19:02] So it wasn’t unreasonable to make herself a little bit vulnerable with this leader. Um, I mean, once she learned that her boss did not have her back, then shut down the ball. But how do you know when is, uh, when someone has your back or, you know, has your best interest at heart? And doesn’t. And I would argue that one of the best ways to know is to try and to pay attention to the response, but that’s taking a risk with your vulnerability.
[00:19:36] Jacob Morgan: Risk is a part of it. There’s no way to eliminate risk from the equation.
[00:19:38] Kim Scott: Yeah, Yeah.
[00:19:39] Jacob Morgan: But you can kind of tell by people’s behavior and their actions.
[00:19:41] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:19:42] Jacob Morgan: So, you know, in a work context, is this the type of person who, when you need help, they come to help you?
[00:19:47] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:19:47] Jacob Morgan: Is it the type of person where in a meeting, if you make a mistake, they defend you?
[00:19:53] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:19:53] Jacob Morgan: Um, is this the type of person when you’re not around, they’re speaking highly of you.
[00:19:57] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:19:58] Jacob Morgan: Um, this is the type of person that wants to spend time with you.
[00:20:01] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:20:01] Jacob Morgan: At work or outside of work. I mean, you can kind of tell.
[00:20:04] Kim Scott: You get a sense. Yeah.
[00:20:05] Jacob Morgan: Yeah. You can get a sense. And this is kind of being, part of being a human.
[00:20:11] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:20:11] Jacob Morgan: And this is kind of on a side note. This is why I think it’s so dangerous for I think a lot of younger people to be stuck on phones and glued on their computer screens.
[00:20:19] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:20:19] Jacob Morgan: Because when you do that you, you lose this ability.
[00:20:22] Kim Scott: To get a sense of whether.
[00:20:24] Jacob Morgan: Yeah, you kind of eliminate this part of your brain that is a kind of a human indicator if you, only way that you’re able to interact and engage is through a screen and through a phone and through like a whole side point.
[00:20:36] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:20:38] Jacob Morgan: But so we’re really good as human beings of internally just inherently possessing that. And you can kind of get a sense when somebody has your best interest in mind and when they don’t. And you also get a pretty good sense of like, I don’t know about that person.
[00:20:53] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:20:54] Jacob Morgan: And if you get one of those like, I don’t know.
[00:20:56] Kim Scott: Pay attention to it. Yeah.
[00:20:57] Jacob Morgan: And you know, maybe they can prove themselves and maybe they do have your best interest in mind. But if you don’t know.
[00:21:02] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:21:03] Jacob Morgan: You know.
[00:21:04] Kim Scott: Proceed with caution.
[00:21:05] Jacob Morgan: Go slow.
[00:21:06] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:21:06] Jacob Morgan: You can, you know, go slowly and proceed with things before you just jump kind of into the big things.
[00:21:11] Kim Scott: Yeah. I think that’s good advice. All right. So let’s tell, let’s talk about the good story. Vulnerability working out. Good leadership with vulnerability.
[00:21:28] Jacob Morgan: Yes. So this was a story from Fleetwood Grobler. He’s the former CEO of Sasol. I think he might actually be the chairman now and they’re a South African energy company. I think they have around thirty-five thousand employees. Um, you know, he was put into a CEO role, uh, during the pandemic. He was never CEO before. He wasn’t really sure what he was doing. And the company was thirteen billion in debt and the banks were about to come in and repossess the business.
[00:21:52] Kim Scott: Wow.
[00:21:53] Jacob Morgan: And, uh, his executive board is like, hey, uh, you’re the CEO now. Yeah, you’re the CEO, do an all hands meeting, introduce yourself. And hopefully you can get this stuff sorted. And so he went in front of his entire company and he gave a message where he started off with vulnerability. And he’s like, look, I know the company’s going through a tough time and I know the cards are stacked against us. And I don’t even know exactly what we’re going to do to get out of this mess.
[00:22:20] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:22:20] Jacob Morgan: But, I do know that we have a really talented group of people. And I know that if we come together, we can rebuild trust in the eyes of our customers and in our employees. And if you come with me on this journey, and if you help me figure out different ideas and solutions, that I know that we can turn around this business. And that’s exactly what the company did.
[00:22:39] Kim Scott: Wow.
[00:22:40] Jacob Morgan: So he was vulnerable, but he also added that leadership piece in there.
[00:22:43] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:22:43] Jacob Morgan: Of course, he gave a much longer speech and then there were actions behind it and this and that, but that was kind of the gist of the idea is like,
[00:22:48] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:22:48] Jacob Morgan: I know we’re struggling, but I know we can turn things around with your help and here’s how we can do it.
[00:22:53] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:22:53] Jacob Morgan: And I always contrast this with a story from Hollis Harris, who used to be the former CEO of Continental Airlines. You know, he passed away a few years ago.
[00:23:00] Kim Scott: Yeah, I was just thinking about this story and was going to ask you.
[00:23:04] Jacob Morgan: Yeah, and this was in the, uh, late 80s, early 90s, the airline was going through a tough time. And he had a similar situation where his board was like, okay, you gotta send out a memo to the entire company. And his memo also talks about the challenges and the struggles and this and that. And then he ends his memo by saying, the best thing that you can do is pray for the future of the company. And you know, the next day he was fired.
[00:23:28] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:23:29] Jacob Morgan: And that’s a message that’s purely based on vulnerability. There was no leadership, there was no action, there was no anything. And too often I think leaders get stuck in that, uh, in that space. So add the leadership to the vulnerability when you can.
[00:23:43] Kim Scott: Yeah. There’s another airline story. I forgot which airline or which leader, this is the one I was thinking of. Where they were I mean, six days away from bankruptcy, like imminent bankruptcy. And he walked into his team and he said, we’re six days away from bankruptcy. I don’t know what to do. You all figure it out and then he walked out of the room.
[00:24:08] So what is that about? In the end, the team did figure it out. Uh, so, it was an, maybe an extreme version of, we have the right people around the table, we can figure this out to, well, you all can figure this out. But he sort of took an extreme view, which is, I don’t have the answers, you have the answers, and he literally walked out of the room. I mean, I would say it’s better to stay in the room and help them figure it out, but maybe, I don’t know, uh, I don’t know why he decided the right thing to do.
[00:24:44] Jacob Morgan: Yeah. I would love to know. Yeah. I was trying to like,
[00:24:46] Kim Scott: I’ll dig it up. Yeah, you can. You’re not gonna find it. I know who knows. I’ll get you the story.
[00:24:51] Jacob Morgan: Yeah. But I also don’t think that’s a good message. I think that was just pure luck.
[00:24:54] Kim Scott: Yes. Well and it was abdication really of responsibility.
[00:24:58] Jacob Morgan: Yeah. That’s also not good because I mean, as a leader, you’re, you don’t just, we have a problem. Go figure it out.
[00:25:04] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:25:05] Jacob Morgan: You know, leave me out.
[00:25:06] Kim Scott: I don’t know what to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:25:08] Jacob Morgan: That’s also not leadership. And that’s not vulnerability, that’s just
[00:25:12] Kim Scott: Abdication.
[00:25:13] Jacob Morgan: Yeah. That’s not very effective, I think, in any regard. But, uh, to your point, you said they figured it out, so I’m sure now he’s looking back and he’s saying, I just trusted my team and I knew they were going to figure something out and this and that, but
[00:25:26] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.
[00:25:26] Jacob Morgan: It’s not, that’s not an effective approach.
[00:25:28] Kim Scott: Yeah. No, I agree. Not as a general rule. Um, so, one of the things that I was thinking about as you were talking about figuring out who you can trust and who you can’t trust is something my daughter told me. She was in third grade and she was getting bullied, uh, at school and, as kids often are. And I was encouraging her to show vulnerability. It was stupid in retrospect. I was like, tell this child, I feel sad when you blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[00:26:02] And she banged her fist on the table and she said, mom, they are trying to make me feel sad. Why would I tell them they succeeded? I think that was wisdom from her. But why do we do that so often? When someone is clearly bullying someone else and then we encourage that person to say how they’re feeling. Like that is not a good way to demonstrate vulnerability. That’s, I think that’s what you mean when you say don’t be vulnerable at work. Like why do we give people that advice so often?
[00:26:34] Jacob Morgan: Yeah, uh, it’s funny. My daughter goes through similar situations as well. And, uh,
[00:26:39] Kim Scott: I’m sorry.
[00:26:40] Jacob Morgan: Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes it’s with friends, right?
[00:26:43] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:26:43] Jacob Morgan: And she has friends, but you know, my daughter, she’s very sensitive. She’s turning eight years old. She’s more, she’ll let it affect her and she, you know, she might cry. She might get very upset, but she will never say anything.
[00:26:55] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:26:55] Jacob Morgan: And so one of the things that we’ve been working on is I say, look, if you have a friend that does that to you, um, you can assertively say, hey, I don’t like that you did that. Like she has a friend, for example, where when they get in a little argument, her friend will say, our friendship is dead.
[00:27:09] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:27:10] Jacob Morgan: And she’ll say like these dramatic things. And it really upsets my daughter because they’re very, they’re good friends, they’re best friends. And so I told my daughter, I said, look, next time that happens, you know, there are a couple of things that you can do. One is just say, is our friendship really dead?
[00:27:24] Kim Scott: Yeah. Ask a question. Yeah.
[00:27:27] Jacob Morgan: Yeah. And it’s just one thing. And the second thing I tell her is you can confront her and say, you know that I don’t appreciate that you’re saying that.
[00:27:33] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:27:33] Jacob Morgan: Or maybe she’ll do something, she’ll like, her friend will hit her or something. I’ll say, Naomi, you can tell her that’s not okay.
[00:27:39] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:27:39] Jacob Morgan: And friends don’t hit friends.
[00:27:40] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:27:41] Jacob Morgan: And tell her that that upset you and ask the other person to apologize. In other words, you take that kind of that power back and you say, okay, you did this to me, you apologize.
[00:27:50] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. And I think that’s the point, like, that you apologize, you did this to me, uh.
[00:27:56] Jacob Morgan: Yeah.
[00:27:56] Kim Scott: You, you, you, uh, is really important in those moments. Not I, I, I, like, I feel sad, but you can’t talk to me like that.
[00:28:07] Jacob Morgan: Yeah, exactly. Like, that, that’s not okay, this and that, and you kind of, and, but it’s been working very well for her and her friend.
[00:28:13] Kim Scott: Good.
[00:28:13] Jacob Morgan: I talked to her friend about it, and they’re getting really good at apologizing to each other and not, you know, saying these dramatic statements like our friendship, you know, when you’re six and seven and eight years old,
[00:28:22] Kim Scott: It feels like the end of the world.
[00:28:24] Jacob Morgan: Everything is over. Um, but yeah, in the context of work, we’re always taught to kind of shield that. Um, and it’s funny, like even in, with friends, like we’ve had friends in the past where we would hang out with them and they would always be on their phone, non stop.
[00:28:40] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:28:41] Jacob Morgan: To the point where like, you would have a conversation.
[00:28:42] Kim Scott: What’s the point of getting together?
[00:28:44] Jacob Morgan: Yeah. And finally, you know, my wife made a comment to one of them and she’s like, hey, you know, get, like, you’re at our house. We’re having dinner together. Get off your phone.
[00:28:53] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:28:53] Jacob Morgan: And this other lady made a snarky comment. She’s like, I’m not your child. Long story short, we’re not friends anymore.
[00:29:01] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:29:01] Jacob Morgan: But you know what? Then that’s okay.
[00:29:04] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:29:04] Jacob Morgan: Right? If you can’t be with someone and give them the gift of your attention and not stare at your screen in front of your phone.
[00:29:12] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:29:12] Jacob Morgan: I don’t want to be friends with you.
[00:29:13] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. There’s no, it’s a waste of time, right?
[00:29:16] Jacob Morgan: It is.
[00:29:17] Kim Scott: If we’re going to get together, then let’s be together.
[00:29:20] Jacob Morgan: Yeah. So I think it’s okay to speak up, um, and not like, oh, you know, you hurt me or no, this and that. But it’s okay to speak up and say, look, I don’t know if anybody’s ever told you this, but when you come to somebody else’s house, and if you’re just on your phone all the time, you know, A, it doesn’t make us feel great because we’re having you over for dinner. We’re putting time and effort, we’re cooking, we’re cleaning.
[00:29:39] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:29:39] Jacob Morgan: We’d love to be able to have a conversation with you. And we can’t do that if you’re on your phone.
[00:29:42] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:29:43] Jacob Morgan: If the other person’s going to freak out and get upset by that, it’s all good. We’re probably just not meant to be friends.
[00:29:48] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. You’re, you’re wasting my time.
[00:29:51] Jacob Morgan: Yeah. So how you deliver that message is important.
[00:29:54] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:29:54] Jacob Morgan: Same thing at work and same thing if you’re a child.
[00:29:56] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:29:58] Jacob Morgan: You deliver it in a professional way. So if somebody’s putting you down at work, if somebody’s doing what, you know, whatever it might be for you. Um, it’s okay to go to them and say, hey, you know, we were in that meeting and I’ve got to be honest with you. I really didn’t like the way that you talked to me.
[00:30:10] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:30:10] Jacob Morgan: I don’t know if you realize that and maybe it wasn’t intentional, but you kind of threw me under the bus in front of our entire team.
[00:30:15] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:30:16] Jacob Morgan: That’s not cool. And I just wanted you to know. Um, and from there you can tell the other person might say, oh my god, I’m so sorry. I didn’t mean to do that. Or
[00:30:25] Kim Scott: They get defensive.
[00:30:27] Jacob Morgan: Or they’re gonna say, I didn’t do that, or you had it coming.
[00:30:30] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:30:30] Jacob Morgan: And at that point you know that that is not someone that you need to be near.
[00:30:34] Kim Scott: And I think it’s really important to be able to slice and dice. To know, like, and that’s, and I think sometimes part of the reason that we don’t confront people who respond badly when we make ourselves vulnerable is that we’re afraid that the net result is that we’re not going to be able to be close to them. But you’re not going to be close, you know, so I think just being realistic about it is important.
[00:31:01] Jacob Morgan: But I think, and confronting I think is actually very effective. And not confronting you know, like I’m going to beat you up like any kinda way.
[00:31:08] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:31:08] Jacob Morgan: But just you know, letting the other person know.
[00:31:11] Kim Scott: That the impact of their behavior.
[00:31:14] Jacob Morgan: Yeah, yeah, and sometimes you can even do it in a joking way. Like uh, you know I have another friend who’s frequently on his phone, like he’s working on it and getting better. But whenever he pulls out his phone when we’re talking I’ll mess with him a little bit.
[00:31:24] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:31:25] Jacob Morgan: And I’ll say, you I’ll say, what are you doing? Are you texting me over there? What are you doing?
[00:31:28] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:31:29] Jacob Morgan: Like, I’ll play around with it or. So, you know, you can do it in a very direct and confrontational way or you can kind of just, you know use humor
[00:31:39] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:31:39] Jacob Morgan: And use other techniques to just let the other person know and they’ll be like, oh, I’m sorry. I was just distracted. And I’m like, okay, cool.
[00:31:45] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. So somebody, uh, just wrote when you did X, it made me feel Y, I’m asking you don’t do a Z in the future. And I think that can work when the person is unaware of what they did wrong.
[00:32:00] Jacob Morgan: Yeah.
[00:32:00] Kim Scott: However, there are times, as my daughter was, that’s what I was sort of encouraging my daughter. You know, when you knock my sandwich on the floor, it made me feel sad. And she was like, the reason why they knocked my sandwich on the floor is because they wanted to make me feel sad. And so in that case, I think that formula doesn’t work as well. You need, uh, you need, uh, you know, you did this to me.
[00:32:24] Jacob Morgan: Yeah.
[00:32:24] Kim Scott: Uh, and it had this impact and here’s the consequences. You need to make the other person aware that their behavior has bad consequences for them. Because they don’t care how you feel.
[00:32:37] Jacob Morgan: Yeah. And it also depends on if this is somebody that you care about. If so, this is somebody that you want to have in your friendship circle. And if this is somebody that you want to spend time with.
[00:32:46] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:32:46] Jacob Morgan: I mean, there’ve been lots of situations where I’ve had unpleasant encounters as I’m sure you have. And so has everybody else. We’re just kind of like, this isn’t worth my time.
[00:32:54] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:32:54] Jacob Morgan: I’m not going to talk to you again. I’m not going to invite you over again. Like I, you know, we’re good. I don’t need to make a thing out of it because I’m deleting you.
[00:33:01] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:33:02] Jacob Morgan: And that’s also okay.
[00:33:03] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, so can we talk about following with vulnerability? I think there’s so much written about leadership. But I think being a strong follower is just as important part of a career as being a strong leader.
[00:33:20] Jacob Morgan: Yeah.
[00:33:20] Kim Scott: So how, can we follow with vulnerability? Like how can we make sure that, uh, that if let’s say for example, we have a boss. I have a boss and my boss is bullying me. Like, how can I respond, or maybe not bullying me, but my boss is, tends to yell at me, uh, and just tends to yell, period. And maybe my boss is, not even aware. I don’t know. Like, why is my boss yelling all the time? Like, how do I follow with vulnerability in that kind of situation?
[00:33:59] Jacob Morgan: Yeah, it’s funny that you mention that because I’m working on this with my kids as well. You know, sometimes I’ll, like, I have a four year old, my four year old son, and he still talks in his very little tiny baby voice. And, uh, you know, sometimes I’ll do things that annoy him or upset him or maybe emotionally hurt him by saying something.
[00:34:16] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:34:16] Jacob Morgan: And sometimes he’ll literally walk, like if you’ve seen those memes where the guy’s like walking with his head down, like he literally walks like that and goes, and I like, it’s heartbreaking. But I always have to tell him, I say, Noah, what did I do?
[00:34:32] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:34:33] Jacob Morgan: And he’ll say, I’ll say, no, no, no. Look at me and speak up and tell me what I did to upset you.
[00:34:38] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:34:38] Jacob Morgan: And so he’s getting much better now when I do something to say, Daddy, I didn’t like that you did that. Please stop. I’m like, whoa.
[00:34:45] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:34:45] Jacob Morgan: All right.
[00:34:46] Kim Scott: That’s good.
[00:34:46] Jacob Morgan: Where did that come from? So, I mean, this is kind of on the parenting side. You know, in a word context, I think you can apply some similar things there. You can also let people know how you want to be treated.
[00:35:00] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:35:00] Jacob Morgan: I mean, there’s somebody screaming and yelling at you.
[00:35:02] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:35:03] Jacob Morgan: It is vulnerable to go to that leader and say, hey, I just gotta be honest with you. You’re screaming and yelling at me a lot. And, uh, it doesn’t feel great. Like, is there maybe a different way that you can give me that feedback? Because when you’re yelling at me, I just don’t hear anything and I just get upset.
[00:35:19] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:35:20] Jacob Morgan: And I want to do a good job.
[00:35:22] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:35:23] Jacob Morgan: Yeah. And I, you know, I want to do a good job and I want to be a member of this team. But I just, I can’t absorb the information when you’re screaming it at me.
[00:35:30] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:35:30] Jacob Morgan: So can you just talk to me in a normal way? And I think from that regard, so kind of what I like about that approach is, you’re not just confronting the other person and telling them what they’re doing. But you’re also letting them know how it’s impacting your ability to do the work that you need to do for them.
[00:35:46] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:35:47] Jacob Morgan: So it’s not just, hey, you’re yelling at me and that upsets me. It’s actually keeping me from doing the work that you’re asking me to do, and I’m trying to do a good job for you.
[00:35:56] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:35:56] Jacob Morgan: And I think if we can bring that piece into it, then it feels, because nobody wants to feel like they’re attacked, nobody feels, nobody wants to feel like they’re being criticized or critiqued.
[00:36:04] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:36:04] Jacob Morgan: And leaders especially get very, very sensitive in that regard.
[00:36:07] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:36:08] Jacob Morgan: So if you can make it, um, put in some of that angle about the work, I think that’s very helpful. Um, and that’ll allow the leader to say, oh, wow, yeah, well, I do want you to do a good job.
[00:36:18] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:36:18] Jacob Morgan: This project is important. Maybe I should change. As opposed to there’s something wrong with me as a leader, as a person.
[00:36:25] Kim Scott: So I’m, I don’t go to my boss who’s yelling at me and say you’re a bully. I say, you know, when you yell, I literally cannot hear what you’re saying. And I want to hear what you’re saying, but I just can’t, I can’t absorb information that delivered this way.
[00:36:42] Jacob Morgan: Yeah. Exactly.
[00:36:43] Kim Scott: So Jim Wilson, who by the way, listened to your book and loved it, says he really loves the point that if the other person does not respond with the same vulnerability, then maybe you don’t want to be around them. If you think they can come around, it may be worth some effort to continue, but until then it’s not. So I think that that’s a really good point. You want, to have the expectation that your vulnerability is matched with some of their vulnerability. That they also respond in kind.
[00:37:18] Jacob Morgan: Yeah, and I also believe in second chance, second chances. You know, there’s this concept in psychology called fundamental attribution error.
[00:37:24] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:37:25] Jacob Morgan: Which basically states, and I’m sure you, yeah, are familiar with it.
[00:37:28] Kim Scott: Explain it to folks who may not be familiar with it.
[00:37:31] Jacob Morgan: Yeah, it’s this idea that oftentimes when things don’t go the right way, we attribute why things don’t go the right way to the person’s behavior and attitude and who they are, as opposed to the situation.
[00:37:42] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:37:42] Jacob Morgan: So for example, you go to a restaurant and you have a waiter who’s maybe a little bit rude. Maybe they spilled water on you and they have some attitude and you’re just kind of like, wow, that person is such a jerk. I’m going to get him fired.
[00:37:53] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.
[00:37:53] Jacob Morgan: Why are they doing working here? And so you assume that that person is just flawed as a human being, and that’s just their character, and you want to get them.
[00:38:02] Kim Scott: Yeah, it’s like a fundamental personality attribute that they have that causes them.
[00:38:06] Jacob Morgan: Exactly.
[00:38:07] Kim Scott: It’s a judgment. It’s a very fixed mindset judgment.
[00:38:10] Jacob Morgan: Yep, but rarely ever do we take a step back and say, hmm, maybe that person just got yelled at by their boss.
[00:38:17] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:38:17] Jacob Morgan: Maybe their boyfriend or girlfriend left them. Maybe they’re having a bad day. Maybe they have a sick relative.
[00:38:21] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:38:22] Jacob Morgan: Like, we never think about the situation. Similarly, like, if you’re in traffic or, you know, you’re driving and somebody cuts you off.
[00:38:27] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:38:27] Jacob Morgan: You just think, oh, that person’s such a jerk. Blah, blah, blah. Yeah. You don’t think, oh, maybe that person’s on their way to the hospital, they have an emergency.
[00:38:33] Kim Scott: Right. Right.
[00:38:34] Jacob Morgan: And a lot of the research shows is that most of the time, how a person behaves and acts is a result of the situation, not as a result of who the person is as a human being.
[00:38:45] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:38:46] Jacob Morgan: And this is important when we think about vulnerability because oftentimes if something doesn’t go your way, vulnerability gets used against you, it very well could be that it’s the situation.
[00:38:55] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:38:55] Jacob Morgan: That person is scared. That person is being beaten down by their boss.
[00:39:00] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:39:00] Jacob Morgan: And so I am a big believer in second and sometimes even third chances, depending on what the circumstance and situation is. But that comes down to a personal choice. Is this somebody that I want to build a relationship with, that I want in my life, either personally or professionally?
[00:39:15] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And is it like we all have a finite amount of time and energy and is this, relationship at this moment, something that I want to make the investment in . And, you know, often it’s not like I’m making some, I’m condemning that other person.
[00:39:36] But I had these other people in my life who it’s a, it’s more important for me to invest in. I often have thought that if I answered every email that I got, that I would neglect my children. And so it’s more important for me to not neglect my children and miss some emails, you know.
[00:39:55] Jacob Morgan: Yeah.
[00:39:56] Kim Scott: Uh, and it’s hard trade off because sometimes I miss emails from people I really care about and I really like and I piss them off, but it’s gotta be okay.
[00:40:06] I think it’s so important, the fundamental attribution error is so important because it’s so satisfying for some reason to condemn another person as evil .And to say that’s the problem is that person is evil. And I’m not saying there aren’t evil people in the world, there are, but that is rarely the problem. The problem is often that person is in a situation or even there’s that person is in a system that causes them to behave badly. And, uh, and so what can we do to change the system so that the person doesn’t have all these incentives to create, behave badly.
[00:40:50] Jacob Morgan: Well, there are probably a few things that you can do. I mean, leading by example is always a big one.
[00:40:55] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:40:55] Jacob Morgan: Um, so, you know, be the leader that you wish you had and that your organization and that your team needs. Like, you don’t need anybody’s permission to lead with vulnerability. You don’t need anybody’s permission to be empathetic. You don’t need anybody’s permission to be competent. You don’t need anybody’s permission to do any of these things.
[00:41:11] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:41:12] Jacob Morgan: And so you can be the type of leader that ultimately that you need and want to be.
[00:41:16] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:41:17] Jacob Morgan: Uh, but I mean, the truth is that there are always going to be some corporate cultures which are not great and some corporate cultures which are great. And you need to decide on the trade offs that you want for yourself.
[00:41:28] So for example, if you go work for Elon Musk at one of his companies, you can probably be assured that you’re going to work crazy hours, you’ll be paid well. You’re going to work on some really complex problems and challenges. But is there going to be a lot of conversation there about like empathy or well being or emotional intelligence or some of those things? Probably not, I mean maybe, but you know that Elon Musk is very much a different type of leader.
[00:41:52] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:41:53] Jacob Morgan: If you go work at a company like Microsoft, where you have Satya Nadella as the CEO. Yeah, I mean, you know that in that kind of environment, you’re going to have a little bit more balance, a little bit more conversations about well being and emotional intelligence and, uh, fixed first growth mindset. It’s a different environment. Um, you might not work on as big, complex problems and challenges. You might not be doing some of the crazy cool stuff that Elon is doing, but everything in life is a trade off.
[00:42:17] Kim Scott: Or you might be working on even cooler stuff. You never know.
[00:42:21] Jacob Morgan: Yeah, you might be.
[00:42:23] Kim Scott: And I think the important thing when you’re looking at companies is not only to look at the leaders of those companies, but also to look at their management systems. And because great leaders design great management systems, uh, that, that include checks and balances at every stage of the employee lifecycle. And that look for biased results at every stage of the employee lifecycle. And when you can find not only great leaders, but leaders who have developed great management systems that are designed to have fair and reasonable outcomes, then you’re less likely to have the kind, the worst kinds of behavior. What I call in Radical Respect, the brutal incompetence, which does happen all too often.
[00:43:11] Jacob Morgan: Yeah. That’s, um, that’s never a good situation. Brutal incompetence. That sounds quite, quite terrible, honestly.
[00:43:19] Kim Scott: And yet it happens. all too often.
[00:43:22] Jacob Morgan: Quite a bit. Yeah, um, so, you know, we need to be able to have open conversations, open debate, uh, we need to be able to talk about these types of things inside of organizations. And that’s where this theme of psychological safety comes into play.
[00:43:35] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:43:35] Jacob Morgan: So if you’re part of a team or an organization where you don’t have that psychological safety, chances are it’s probably not a good team for you to be a part of. And similarly, as a leader, part of your job is to create that psychological safety.
[00:43:47] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:43:48] Jacob Morgan: Um, and now what’s really interesting about that, and there was some recent research that came out from, um, uh, Peter Cappelli at Wharton, I believe, where he talked about too much psychological safety, which is also true.
[00:44:01] And his argument was that, you know, you just need to create some psychological safety. You don’t need to go crazy with it. Because his argument was that if you create a place where anybody can say anything, and there’s no such thing as a bad idea, then what tends to happen is that people take advantage, performance goes down, and you kind of get this diminishing rate of return. So as a leader, you don’t need to create this like, overly psychological safe place where, you know, you like to,
[00:44:29] Kim Scott: Yeah, and I think, I think that Amy Edmondson would say that’s not, what you’re describing is not psychological safety. What that is, anything goes. And true psychological safety is about holding people accountable for their mistakes, for saying something that maybe hurt someone else.
[00:44:46] Jacob Morgan: Yeah.
[00:44:46] Kim Scott: Uh, but doing it in a way that shows them respect, core respect, unconditional respect, and, and that lets them know that this is a place where if you learn from your mistakes, uh, it’s safe to make a mistake, but it, that doesn’t mean not holding someone accountable for their mistakes.
[00:45:10] Jacob Morgan: Yes. Yes. And that I think is a very, very important thing for a lot of leaders to remember.
[00:45:14] Kim Scott: Yes, absolutely. I think that’s an excellent note to end on. So vulnerability is important, but often misunderstood. Psychological safety is important, but often misunderstood as is Radical Candor. So these ideas, it’s important for people to wrestle with them.
[00:45:31] And I think you helped us do that today, Jacob. So thank you so much.
[00:45:35] Jacob Morgan: Well, thank you for having me.
[00:45:36] Kim Scott: Take care, everyone.
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Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer.
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