Dealing with a direct report who questions everything, isolates their team, and actively undermines leadership? Kim and Amy tackle the tricky reality of managing someone who refuses to engage, blames leadership for team turnover, and resists every attempt at coaching.
Listen to the episode:
Episode at a Glance: Resistant Direct Reports
Radical Candor Podcast Resources: Resistant Direct Reports
- Creating Consequences For Bullying At Work | Radical Candor Podcast 5 | Bonus
- Performance Improvement Plans | Radical Candor Podcast 5 | 20
- How To Gauge Your Feedback | Radical Candor
- 4 Things To Do When Firing Someone | Radical Candor
- What Does Managing Out Mean? | Radical Candor Podcast 6 | 6
- The Go-To Question | Radical Candor Podcast 2 | 8
- Listen, Challenge, Commit | Radical Candor Podcast 6 | 17
- How To Care Personally When You Don’t Care | Radical Candor Podcast 6 | 48
Radical Candor Checklist: Resistant Direct Reports
- Tip number one. Get it before you give it. Remember to not skip the first step of Radical Candor and start by soliciting feedback, even if you feel like you’ve done this already, it’s always important to check in.
- Tip number two. Don’t be too fast to hit the bozo bit. It is really hard to be a manager and to feel like you are a projection screen for everyone’s unresolved authority issues. Try to remember that that is part of the job. It’s a hard part of the job, but take a deep breath, allow people to challenge you, encourage people to challenge you. And be prepared to be the emotional shock absorber. Don’t go in demanding that people love you and respect you. That’s not going to work.
- Tip number three. Building on the first two tips, encourage your direct report to listen, challenge, and commit to creating a culture where we listen. We have our direct reports challenge us, and then we also commit after we have challenged. In fact, you have a right to ask your director for it, to commit, to get on board at some point. You don’t have to argue endlessly.
- Tip number four. If you have decided that this situation is just not going to work out – you’ve given so much feedback, you’ve solicited so much feedback, and you’re moving towards a PIP – make sure that in the next couple of conversations you have with this person, you challenge even more directly so that there is no ambiguity about what you’re saying, and that you document what is happening and write down exactly what needs to change and by when.
The TLDR Radical Candor Podcast Transcript: Resistant Direct Reports
[00:00:00] Kim Scott: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Radical Candor podcast. I’m Kim Scott.
[00:00:07] Amy Sandler: I’m Amy Sandler. And before we jump into today’s episode, I do want to remind you all, if you are not aware, we now have an ad free podcast as part of our new Radical Candor community. So go on over to radicalcandor.com/community. Join now. When you join the community, you’ll get a seven day free trial to the Radical Candor community. And you’ll also get access to Radical Candor courses, including a new twelve months of Radical Candor course. This all comes free with your membership, including this podcast that you’re listening to right now, you’ll get it early and ad free. You’ll also get real time learning opportunities, interaction with Radical Candor experts, including you, Kim Scott, and so much more. So if you have ever struggled with communication at work, this is your community.
[00:01:06] For today, Kim and I are going to explore a listener question about how to challenge someone who’s actively undermining their boss and bullying others. So I’m going to read the question and I start now. Quote, I love your book and podcast, I always recommend it when people need a little management help. I’ve got a team of forty people and I’ve done all the usual things to engage my team. Weekly one on ones, praise publicly, challenge privately. I’ve been approachable, arranged team events, given people opportunities to step up, provide feedback. And I encourage the team to give me feedback and most of the team love it. I get fantastic engagement scores.
[00:01:53] But one of my managers is a young manager in their early thirties and they will just not engage. And as a result, their team is siloed. I have tried talking to this person, providing gentle coaching and very direct feedback, and they will not listen. And they actively undermine me and other members of the management team. I have offered mentors, training, including this person in decisions, and leaving them be. I’ve given them direct instructions, which they question in detail quote, just so they understand. This person is intelligent, they certainly understand exactly what they’re doing. This manager that reports to me blames me for two of their team members leaving. One of whom was good, but didn’t want to do the job and had a tantrum when they didn’t get the promotion they thought they were entitled to. And the other person, we had many complaints about. I honestly don’t know what to do. This manager is like a cancer and I know it will make my life an absolute misery if I try to put them on a performance plan. Please help. I am at my wits end.
[00:03:08] Kim Scott: You know, one bit of advice that I have for this listener is to listen to our podcast, how to care personally when you really can’t stand that person. Because it sounds like maybe that’s part of what’s going on here. Such a hard situation. Uh, when you have someone who is reporting directly to you, who clearly doesn’t respect you, it’s really hard, um, to know what to do about it. And so I have a lot of passion for this manager. Um, and I appreciate all the Radical Candor love. And I also understand what it’s like. This, let’s call the boss Alex and the direct report Sam.
[00:03:55] Amy Sandler: Okay.
[00:03:56] Kim Scott: So, and neither one of these, uh, people have a gender ’cause it doesn’t matter. So Alex, uh, let’s say, uh, is probably was responsible.
[00:04:09] Amy Sandler: Hey, Kim, can I just pause you on that?
[00:04:11] Kim Scott: Sure.
[00:04:11] Amy Sandler: When you said it doesn’t matter, it’s interesting. Like it does matter.
[00:04:16] Kim Scott: It does matter.
[00:04:17] Amy Sandler: You don’t want, your
[00:04:17] Kim Scott: Right.
[00:04:17] Amy Sandler: People to, uh, be derailed by potential, uh, gender issues,
[00:04:24] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:04:24] Amy Sandler: With that.
[00:04:24] Kim Scott: Yes, yes. Gender obviously matters, but for the purposes of the advice we’re giving, uh, it would be true no matter which gender that, uh, is, that, it doesn’t seem like this issue is gendered. So to that extent, uh, we’re not going to identify the gender of either the boss or the employee. Does that make sense?
[00:04:46] Amy Sandler: Totally makes sense. And one thing I also want to throw in the mix is the person writing in about, uh, a young manager in their early thirties. So there may be, if not a gender thing, a generational thing, going on.
[00:05:00] Kim Scott: Yes. And I think, you know, one of the, one of the generational things that may be going on, at least, I have twins who are fifteen, so I’m very aware of this, and even much younger generation, is that they are not afraid to challenge authority. They are eager to challenge authority. And I think that this is true, not only for people in their teens and people in their twenties and people in their thirties, like, I think it’s, I’ve said this before, but it’s worth repeating. It has always been the younger generation’s job to tell the older generation why they’ve screwed everything up. That’s how we move forward as humanity. But it is never especially fun to hear about all the things you guys screw up. So there may be some of that going on. The, uh, a young person skepticism of an older manager. I’m assuming that, uh, Alex, the boss is maybe in their forties or fifties, but who knows? I don’t know. That’s an assumption I’m making that maybe totally incorrect. What do you think, Amy?
[00:06:10] Amy Sandler: Yeah, I think just from the read, you know, as you called out this person, you know, acknowledging the passion for Radical Candor, all the things they have done. The frustration and I did read it that they, that there was a age or generational difference when they said young manager.
[00:06:28] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:06:28] Amy Sandler: Early thirties and will just not engage. Uh, it’s maybe a little bit between the lines, but I think it’s probably safe to make that conclusion. You said something, Kim, before we get into some practical tips and maybe even a role play, uh, but just that the person isn’t respecting that, uh, Sam, the direct report was not respecting the boss. And I’m curious, were there certain signals in there for you about, uh, a disrespect happening there?
[00:06:57] Kim Scott: Yes, uh, so , what Alex said, if I look at the note from Alex, uh, that Sam will just not engage, and as a result, their team is siloed. And that sometimes happens when a manager has a boss who they don’t respect, they talk badly about that boss to their direct reports. And then the team kind of gets siloed. The team doesn’t feel like they’re part of the broader organization because they feel like the leader of the broader organization is a jerk or something. Um, so that was one thing that Alex said. And then, uh, and then the other thing that Alex said is that when Alex offers instructions, they’re kind of questioned a lot. They question, uh, instructions, they question in detailed quote, just so they understand. Uh, and so it’s clear that Alex thinks that Sam’s questions are not asked in good faith.
[00:08:04] And that’s, that is, um, a sign of disrespect, you know. And then the other thing that Alex said is that, uh, the, the, that Sam blamed Alex for two team members leaving. And this can be hard because sometimes you want to, somebody wants a promotion and you as the boss’s boss and their manager, it, just tends to want to promote that person. Uh, maybe because they’re closer to the person, maybe because they are, um, that they don’t want to deal with having the hard conversation of saying, no, you’re not going to get a promotion. So it becomes the boss’s boss, it becomes, in this case, Alex’s job to say, no, you can’t promote this person. And then sometimes that person quits and that’s hard for the, now Sam has to hire that person’s replacement. And that’s a hard situation for everybody. Uh, and then it sounds like, uh, Alex also believed that another person on Sam’s team had to be managed out, wasn’t doing a good job. So, you know, what’s traditionally called non regretted attrition. This person left, but you’re glad because otherwise they wouldn’t.
[00:09:19] Amy Sandler: I don’t think I’ve ever heard that. Can you say that again? Non regretted attrition?
[00:09:24] Kim Scott: Non regretted attrition. So when, if, in, in
[00:09:28] Amy Sandler: Is that like corporate speak for, kind of worked out okay.
[00:09:31] Kim Scott: I’m glad that, I’m glad they’re gone. Um, so, you know, this is when you take a look at, uh, people who quit, uh, you sort of want to analyze, of those who quit, uh, which ones are you sort of think they quit for good reason because they weren’t, you know, they weren’t good at the job, they, you know, whatever. They weren’t working well with others, so you’re sort of glad they left, that’s quote unquote non regretted attrition. And then there’s regretted attrition, which are the people who quit but they were great at their job, and you wish they hadn’t.
[00:10:09] And often there’s some disagreement about who’s regretted and not regretted. It sounds like Sam was sad the person left, and Alex is glad. So they have a difference of opinion about people on Sam’s team, and that’s hard. Um, that’s hard for Sam, and it’s also hard for Alex. Um, I mean, the other reason why I’m saying that, uh, that maybe Alex is feeling disrespect, is that this manager is like a cancer.
[00:10:37] Uh, and also Alex seems to want to put this person on a performance improvement plan. Which is a way of managing someone out, you know, encouraging them to quit, uh, and also making sure that you are communicating clearly about what’s wrong so that the person can either fix it and not have to leave. Or they can’t fix it and then you can fire them without as much legal risk. So that’s what’s going on. That, do you agree with that?
[00:11:11] Amy Sandler: Yeah, I do and something else that was popping up for me with some of the language around you know, how much effort this writer, this manager, Alex, has put in to the overall team, to the practice of Radical Candor. And then there was a shift in the writing and just kind of naming, what you said around, you know, this manager is like a cancer and somebody had a tantrum and then complaints and entitled. And I just want to name that I think when we feel so frustrated, we might start making assumptions about intentions.
[00:11:48] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:11:48] Amy Sandler: And so there’s kind of this layering in of what’s happened plus this sense of frustration that this letter writers is sharing with us.
[00:11:57] Kim Scott: Yeah. I mean, the other thing that Alex said is that Sam undermines Alex, undermines me and other members of the management. So I’m going to have, there’s one of two things, I mean, a mil, one of a million things could be going on here, but I’m going to boil it down to two.
[00:12:18] Amy Sandler: Yeah.
[00:12:18] Kim Scott: So let’s kind of play it out.
[00:12:20] Amy Sandler: Yeah.
[00:12:20] Kim Scott: And tell me what do you think? One thing that could be going on is that Sam has some criticism for Alex and the leadership of this company, and that that criticism might be worth hearing. Right? So that’s one possibility. Another possibility is that Sam just has this sort of, uh, authority, issues with authority that have, that are unresolved. And now Alex and the rest, and any other manager at the company are sort of the projection screens for Sam’s unresolved authority issues. Um, and so both of these things can happen, and neither of them ought, need to be disasters. In either one of those cases, uh, Sam could be salvaged, potentially.
[00:13:16] Uh, and, and this could work out, you know, or there’s a possibility that Sam is just a big jerk and bullies other people on the team and should be fired. And at which point putting Sam on a performance improvement plan is the right thing to do, because even though, uh, even though Alex says you know, Sam is like a cancer and I know will make my life an absolute misery if I try to put them on a performance plan. But Sam’s already making this person’s life a misery. So that may be the right thing to do, but Sam, but I’m not convinced based on my script. So let’s kind of, let’s maybe play out what it could be like to solicit some feedback. I think that’s the place to start, is to lay it, tell Sam exactly.
[00:14:06] Amy Sandler: Have Sam tell Alex what’s happening. So Alex is the boss, solicit feedback from Sam. See if we can salvage Sam.
[00:14:13] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:14:13] Amy Sandler: So I was thinking that could be a good title for this episode.
[00:14:15] Kim Scott: Salvaging Sam.
[00:14:16] Amy Sandler: Salvaging Sam.
[00:14:18] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:14:18] Amy Sandler: So Kim, would you like to play the role of Alex and see if they can be salvaged?
[00:14:23] Kim Scott: Yeah. Absolutely.
[00:14:24] Amy Sandler: All right. So you painted a picture of a couple of possible options. Let’s start with the option you painted where, uh, me as Sam, I’ve got a problem and a legitimate gripe with you as my manager. But also since to your point about the management team, just how this company is being run.
[00:14:45] Kim Scott: Yeah. Okay. You ready?
[00:14:48] Amy Sandler: I’m ready. Let’s do it.
[00:14:50] Kim Scott: Sam, thanks so much for having this conversation today.
[00:14:54] Amy Sandler: Yeah, thanks for, thanks for making the time.
[00:14:58] Kim Scott: Listen, I really want to have a conversation that maybe is going to be a little bit awkward. Is now a good time to do that?
[00:15:10] Amy Sandler: I mean, awkward for who?
[00:15:12] Kim Scott: For both of us. It’s going to be a hard conversation.
[00:15:15] Amy Sandler: All right. Well, you know, I feel like we’ve got some problems going on. So yeah, let’s do it.
[00:15:22] Kim Scott: Well, already I feel better about this conversation because I agree we have some problems and I want to, I really want to better understand what those problems are. Um, I will, I’m going to just, I’m going to make myself a little vulnerable here and tell you how I feel. Uh, which is, it’s not your fault. I feel the way I feel, but I want to make sure that we’re on the same page because I really, I feel like you don’t respect me and you don’t respect the other managers at this company. And it’s really hard, it’s hard to move forward. I feel like this sense of disdain that I get when we’re talking is making it hard for us to work well together.
[00:16:08] And so what I really, I want to know what I have done to earn this and maybe I’m wrong, but to the extent that you feel that I’m doing something wrong, I want to know what it is that I’m doing wrong. And either I’ll agree with you and I can fix it or I’ll disagree with you and we can have a conversation because, and I don’t feel like it’s just me. I feel like the whole leadership team, uh, you, I just feel like you don’t like what we’re doing, but I don’t know what it is we’re doing wrong. And I really, I do want to understand that. And, uh, and I cannot promise that I will agree with you, but I can promise you that I will, the more candid you can be with me, the more I will reward that candor.
[00:17:01] Amy Sandler: So just so I understand, you think I have disdain for you and the management team.
[00:17:07] Kim Scott: Yeah, that’s the sense I’m getting.
[00:17:11] Amy Sandler: Yeah. I mean, look, it’s not personal. It’s, I just, I’m not impressed with how this organization manages people. I have two folks on my team who have left and someone who, you know, could have been a really top leader and they weren’t given a promotion. And, you know, I just feel like I’m not being supported as a manager. I feel like I’m being left on my own out to dry because I’m doing stuff, you know, looking at my numbers, I’m getting good results, but I’m not being supported by you or by the management.
[00:17:49] Kim Scott: Yeah, so let’s, I’m really glad you raised a specific issue and I want to talk about that specifically. And then I also want to open it up and see if there are other, because you said something that was really broad, like I don’t, that you don’t like the way this organization is managed. And so I don’t want to skip past that, but let’s talk about the specific thing you raised first, which are these two folks on your team, uh, who left in part as a result of the fact that you and I had different assessment of these individuals. So I want to talk a little bit more about that. And, um, and first of all, understand your perspective and if you’re open to it, share a little bit more about my perspective.
[00:18:36] So let’s start first, um, with Cory, who didn’t get a promotion. So Cory didn’t get a promotion, uh, in part because as I, this is my memory, so correct me if I’m wrong. But as I looked across the organization and we calibrated who should and shouldn’t get a promotion, it seemed like Cory wasn’t hitting the right metrics to get a promotion. And also Cory was about eighteen months, Cory would have gotten a promotion eighteen months faster than anyone else that we’ve ever promoted. And that didn’t feel, especially given that Cory wasn’t hitting certain key metrics.
[00:19:22] Amy Sandler: Well, this is news to me. I mean, this is the first I’m hearing about, this is faster. I mean, Cory was doing the job and in terms of, you know, how I am measuring what the job was, Cory hit those targets. And you know, it’s not, it’s really frustrating when there’s not, it feels like there’s willy nilly, uh, instructions on who gets promoted. And it just feels like it’s kind of you and your friends. And for new folks who are trying to, you know, who are meeting the numbers, it’s not clear on how to get promoted.
[00:19:53] Kim Scott: Yeah, that’s really a, um, that’s a helpful perspective and I’m glad you shared it because I thought I had been clear, and clear, and evidently I was not clear enough. I think maybe one thing that would help is to share a little bit more about the calibration process that we do, uh, as an organization, because we really take quite a lot of time making sure that, that all of the managers, uh, in the whole company are promoting people for, uh, sort of similar levels of accomplishment and rough. I mean, if somebody blows past something, it’s not like this is the post office and it’s time based promotion. But no knock on the post office, by the way.
[00:20:43] Amy Sandler: My dad works at the post office. So I,
[00:20:45] Kim Scott: I’m really sorry.
[00:20:46] Amy Sandler: Yeah.
[00:20:47] Kim Scott: Uh, I should not have, uh, I should not have. It’s not like this is a time based promotion. It’s based on accomplishments.
[00:20:55] Amy Sandler: You’ve been there for twenty years. So, you know, what did you do to get promoted? ‘Cause I, you know, I’d love to know how you got to your role.
[00:21:03] Kim Scott: Yeah. I’m happy, I’m happy to talk about that. I also want to say that, uh, that the way you said that is sounded very, very, like very much to me like you were attacking. Like what did you do? Uh, and so,
[00:21:18] Amy Sandler: I mean if, look, if you’re like being a manager, you know, I would think you’d have thicker skin than that.
[00:21:24] Kim Scott: So I think that one of the things we want to do, is we want to treat each other respectfully and I don’t mind if you challenge me. Uh, but I also want you to know that if you’re going to speak that way to people, that you’re going to, you’re going to get an emotional reaction out of them. And uh,
[00:21:44] Amy Sandler: I mean, look, I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree. I feel like you do all this, you know, asking and talking and chatting and I’m just here to do a job. I just want to get the numbers in. And so like, that feels like that’s what we’re measuring on is the numbers. And you know, Cory hit the numbers and didn’t get the promotion.
[00:22:02] Kim Scott: So as you know, we don’t give people a promotion for hitting the numbers. We give people a promotion for consistently exceeding numbers and, uh, having a track record of exceeding the numbers over time. You don’t get a promotion for showing up. You get a promotion for doing more than is expected of you. Uh, and that’s by the way, how I have gotten my promotions, uh, over the last twenty years is, uh, is really building a business that grew, uh, at a hundred percent every three years, uh, consistently, uh, uh, over the past twenty years. So that’s, part of the reason the company is as big as it is, is because, uh, the teams that I have led hit the numbers. I’m not saying I did it by myself, I did it with, uh, with the team.
[00:22:59] And also because, uh, I consistently had really high engagement on my team members. That people were reporting that they really enjoyed the job. It wasn’t only that they were putting up great numbers, but they were happy at work. So I think those are the two reasons why over the past twenty years, I have gotten the promotion. So I think in the case, uh, of your employee who didn’t get promoted, the reason is that they hadn’t built that track record of exceeding, uh, expectations quarter over quarter over quarter.
[00:23:49] Amy Sandler: I would love to, I don’t know, Brandi, Nick, as our, uh, advisors, any blink reactions on how that conversation was going?
[00:23:57] Kim Scott: You can use the Radical Candor framework and say, where was I? Was I obnoxious?
[00:24:03] Amy Sandler: I started off as being collaborative and then I think I went into against authority.
[00:24:08] Brandi Neal: Yes, you went into very against authority. Um.
[00:24:12] Kim Scott: You just didn’t like me.
[00:24:13] Amy Sandler: That I didn’t like you.
[00:24:14] Kim Scott: That was the thing.
[00:24:16] Amy Sandler: Yeah, I don’t like you.
[00:24:17] Kim Scott: And it’s, it, I think you wouldn’t like any manager you had. It actually.
[00:24:21] Amy Sandler: I sort of veered from like this was about a specific thing and then it just turned into.
[00:24:25] Kim Scott: Yeah. Why are you?
[00:24:26] Brandi Neal: Right? Yes. And I feel like you’re just both going to keep going back and forth in this situation. So like, when does somebody say this isn’t productive? Here’s what needs to happen for this role.
[00:24:40] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:24:40] Brandi Neal: And how can we work together better? Like, is there a point where you can move forward?
[00:24:47] Amy Sandler: Like, I feel like I put Kim on the spot of like her having to, you know, defend her resume, but Brandi, what you’re saying is like, how does,
[00:24:55] Brandi Neal: Who’s Sam and who’s Alex again?
[00:24:57] Amy Sandler: I’m Sam.
[00:24:58] Brandi Neal: Yeah, so I feel like Sam has put Alex on a spot where they feel like they need to defend their resume. And that kind of like, um, Alex is taking the bait versus.
[00:25:12] Kim Scott: Yeah, so here’s what was going on in my mind because I totally agree that the, and I had this debate, should I explain it or should I not? And here’s what was going on in my mind is, first of all, I stopped and I said, it sounded, this is what I mean by sounding disrespectful.
[00:25:31] Amy Sandler: Yeah.
[00:25:32] Kim Scott: And, uh, and then when Sam said, or Amy playing Sam said, you know, oh, you know, shouldn’t you have thicker skin than that? I was like, that’s when, that is when I hit the bozo bit. And I was like, all right, uh, this person has got to go. Uh, this person is just being a jerk and, uh, is not willing to. But then I started explaining it because I started thinking, all right, I’ve got to build, I got to start working on the performance and improvement plan.
[00:26:11] Amy Sandler: So in your head, just to kind of name what was happening.
[00:26:14] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:26:14] Amy Sandler: I started off as like, I have a problem. Then as we’re having the conversation, I’m kind of veering more into like, I may, there may be a problem.
[00:26:21] Kim Scott: But what really is you.
[00:26:23] Amy Sandler: And I am the problem, is Sam, like the problem is like, I don’t respect you. And I don’t, and I am probably not bought into the care personally part of Radical Candor. That was what I was trying to get into was some of my, you know, we’re just hitting the numbers, etcetera.
[00:26:38] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:26:38] Amy Sandler: And so then in your mind, what I hear you saying, Kim, is that now you’re like, okay, where we are at is like the only way to salvage this Sam is a PIP, a performance improvement plan.
[00:26:50] Kim Scott: Yeah. So, and so if this is the way the conversation went. In my mind, I’ve decided. All right. It’s, I’ve tried. I’ve tried. I’ve tried. It’s time to move this person to performance improvement plan. I don’t want to work with this person.
[00:27:03] Brandi Neal: And are you going to say that to?
[00:27:08] Kim Scott: No. So what I would do in this case is I would end the conversation quickly. And then I would pick up the, if I’m at a big company, I’d pick up the phone and call HR and say, I need some help. We need to start moving this person to a performance improvement plan.
[00:27:28] Brandi Neal: So, sorry to interrupt Kim, but is that not radically candid though to not tell Sam, like?
[00:27:35] Kim Scott: So once you, once you’re going down the path of performance improvement plan you are officially in legal cover your ass territory. Which is not, you’re, you can still be radically candid, but you need to start.
[00:27:50] Brandi Neal: But you’re not gonna say I feel like this is not productive. I’m going to create a, you’re not telling Sam, I’m going to put you on a performance improvement plan.
[00:27:59] Kim Scott: What I would have done at the end of that conversation is said, Sam, this is an example of what I mean by disrespect. It’s really hard to work with someone who’s this disrespectful. And so if we can’t get, back on track, we’re going to have to make some changes. That’s kind of the extent of what I would say. Uh, I would never ever tell someone, I’m going to put you on a performance improvement plan, if I’m at a big company where there’s an HR process, without going through the right steps. If it is a little company and I felt like, all right, this is not working out, I would just say, look, uh, you know, look, Sam, the way you’re treating me is not okay. And my concern is that if you’re treating me this way, you’re treating other people even worse. And, uh, and that’s not okay. It’s not how we’re going to, that’s not how we’re, so what’s going to happen from your perspective.
[00:29:02] Amy Sandler: Kim, can I ask, like, as I was getting more and more into my, like, anti authoritary, uh, anti authority, were you experiencing any emotion kind of on behalf of this manager, Alex? What was coming up?
[00:29:16] Kim Scott: Oh yeah. I mean, I’ve been there.
[00:29:19] Amy Sandler: Yeah.
[00:29:19] Kim Scott: Um, I will say though, that like some of the people who I’m still really close with. In fact, it was, uh, there was an, um, there was a guy who worked on the Adsense team at Google, who is very much an anti authoritarian. Was really, challenged me, or there were three people in particular, who really challenged me very hard. And I’m still close with all three of those people. I just took a walk with one. I just went and gave a presentation at another one’s company. And this other person helped me write Radical Candor. And so it’s possible to work with the anti authoritarian if you’re open to being challenged and if they will play ball. But if they’re like, you and everyone who’s a manager is an asshole who I don’t like or respect, like that you can’t work with.
[00:30:17] Amy Sandler: Yeah.
[00:30:18] Kim Scott: You know, so you’ve got to get started with soliciting feedback.
[00:30:21] Amy Sandler: Yeah well, I think it’s a really important distinction because you can be skeptical of authority and there is that like common human decency and respect. And I think there’s a difference if I, you know, I started off by saying you know, it’s not clear how promotions are being delivered at this company or the metrics, like that is a legitimate concern.
[00:30:43] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:30:43] Amy Sandler: And I think just to your point, for folks, even when we do in our workshops, these kinds of role play conversations that tend to kind of escalate into, well, you’re terrible and you’re getting fired.
[00:30:54] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:30:54] Amy Sandler: And so I think it’s important, A, we’ve, you and I have had this conversation several times before. So you’re not putting me on the PIP just from this first conversation.
[00:31:03] Kim Scott: Of course.
[00:31:04] Amy Sandler: Right? So I just kind of want to be explicit about that. And then the other thing that I think is my sense, and I’m curious what you think, but there’s, there is often still a kernel of truth in there. So it’s true that this organization perhaps were not as clear about how do we promote people. And perhaps we’ve been doing things a certain way and somebody coming in new, you know, might be able to notice like, oh, why are we promoting these people and why have people been there? So I think the other thing I just want to name, is that as Alex writing in as the manager, while you might be dealing with someone who does need to be put on the PIP, if it goes the way that we went. But there still is perhaps something to look at, what are we doing and contributing here to this problem?
[00:31:48] Kim Scott: Yeah. And it could be that Sam was just having a bad day, you know? So you want to leave some room for that as well. Uh, but I would say like, there’s, we used to do this role play, uh, at one company where I worked. And in the role, we hired these actors and we, one of the lines that, and we had just done this whole session about how to solicit feedback, how to give praise, how to give criticism, how to gauge how it’s landing. So we’ve done all this work with these managers at this company. And then we present them with this, it’s kind of a role play but there’s an actor playing playing the role of the direct report.
[00:32:39] And we would ask the actor at one point in the conversation to say to their boss, the fish stinks from the head down. So pretty, uh, pretty, and we would watch how the, and the feedback that the manager was supposed to give the, this person was that they can say things harshly. Uh, you know, and, and so the people who won the role play would say, this is an example of saying something in a way that’s incredibly harsh . However, it’s clear that you have some feedback for me. So why don’t you try it again and say it with, you know, say it, let me know what’s wrong, but don’t just insult, you know? And that’s what, I would encourage.
[00:33:30] Amy Sandler: Yeah.
[00:33:30] Kim Scott: Alex, the person who wrote in, to try to do too. You don’t want to, you know, if, ’cause if you demand that a person, that your direct report, be respectful of you, uh, then you’re going to silence them. So you want to encourage them to say it, and even if they say it in kind of a messy way, it’s okay. But if they show you, if they show you unremitting kind of disdain, then you can’t work with them. And it’s hard to know where that line is.
[00:34:03] Amy Sandler: Yeah, well, it’s interesting. And I can’t remember exactly how you said it, maybe you can remember Kim? When you first started the conversation and you said it was going to be awkward. And I said, for who? I recall, and let me know if I’m misremembering, that you spoke a bit about your own feelings of how it felt, how I was communicating with you.
[00:34:25] Kim Scott: Yeah, I said it’s going to be hard for both of us, but I want to start by making myself vulnerable and telling you how I feel. I think I said something like that.
[00:34:32] Amy Sandler: Yeah. So I’m just curious.
[00:34:33] Kim Scott: And how did you, sorry to interrupt, but how did you, playing Sam, think about that? What, how did that make you respond?
[00:34:41] Amy Sandler: Well, that’s kind of where I was going, which is, and I’m kind of channeling Jason a little bit, who’s traveling. I recall Jason saying that he had, I can’t remember if it was a, I think it was a boss or a peer who, uh, feelings were not important to this person. And so it would be more meaningful to point to, you know, a project that we’re not delivering on or a metric that we’re not delivering on. So that’s kind of where I was bringing it up for Sam, who, you know, the way that I’m reading this role is it’s less about the impact on your feelings and more about my job.
[00:35:19] Kim Scott: Yes. I would say though, when I have worked with employees who say, you know, I don’t care about other people’s feelings. I mean, my answer is you have to care about other people’s feelings. Like, if you’re going to communicate with people, you’re communicating on an intellectual plane and on an emotional plane at the same time. And if you ignore other people’s emotions, then you’re just not going to communicate very well, if you dismiss them as unimportant.
[00:35:47] Amy Sandler: I hundred percent agree. I mean, it’s, as Amy and not Sam, it’s so important to me. What I’m wondering from a more effective sort of perspective, if you are working with someone who is maybe not as dialed in on the feelings, would it be more effective to start by, this relationship, I am your manager and I want to see you succeed. And for you to succeed, we need to have a healthy, effective working relationship. So less about your feelings. Um, I’m just curious, like, have you been in a situation where, uh, anchoring on how you felt as the manager was not as effective? Do you know what I’m saying? Does that make sense?
[00:36:33] Kim Scott: Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, I think I told the story before, but it’s worth repeating. There was a guy who was on my team, and it was at a startup, and we were trying to figure out when to meet. And there was one time that worked for everybody except him. And he said to the whole team, well, that’s when I take my run and my run is more important to me than you all. So it was like the worst possible way to say it. And so I was giving him some feedback that, you know, you have got to figure out how to communicate better. And from his perspective, he’s like, I was just being honest. And I said, I know your run is really important to you. And I care, you know, I want you to have your run every day. I’m not trying to get between you and your run, but when you’re working with other people, sometimes you have to adjust a little bit. And not only , you have to adjust the way you’re saying, because if you say it in the harshest possible way, you’re gonna elicit a negative emotion.
[00:37:43] Amy Sandler: That’s where I’m going.
[00:37:44] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:37:44] Amy Sandler: Which is like about effectiveness, because I could, you know, in the role of Sam, I could imagine saying, this person is my boss. It’s not my job to worry about their feelings.
[00:37:54] Kim Scott: Yeah. But it’s always, if you have a human relationship, always. Yeah, I think that might have worked better, but I didn’t know that about you when I.
[00:38:03] Amy Sandler: I didn’t either, it was really, uh, I was really getting into the character.
[00:38:06] Kim Scott: Yeah. So I think, you know, we both learned something important about Sam and that conversation. Um, I think also, Sam, I mean, I think the thing is, Sam actively undermines their boss and the other members of the management team. And one of the things that is hard, so I’m going to offer some compassion for Sam here. Sam disagrees with some of the decisions that the management team is making. And this often happens. This is the difficulty of being a middle manager, is that you often have to implement decisions that other people have made that you disagree with. And so what I would advise, Sam, in this case, whether I am playing the role of Sam’s boss or Sam’s coach, is that even when you disagree with the decision that your boss has made or a leadership structure has made, it’s your job to listen, challenge, commit.
[00:39:16] So you want to listen, you want to take the time to understand that decision well enough that you can explain the reasons for the decision to others, even if you disagree with the decision, number one. Number two, you want to challenge the decision directly with the boss. So when you were playing Sam, Amy, and you were saying, you didn’t tell me that, you know, well, you didn’t ask me, you know, so you have, it’s your job, if you disagree with something to challenge the boss.
[00:39:47] It’s the boss’s job then to be open to that challenge. And then at a certain point you have to commit. And if you’ve done those things, if you understand the rationale for the decision, even a decision you disagree with, well enough that you can articulate it to others, then you’re not in this awkward situation with your team of saying, well, you know, Alex says we have to do this. I think that’s stupid. But let’s go ahead and do it because Alex is the boss. Like that’s not a great way to lead a team. You undermine yourself, and Alex, and you make everybody feel demoralized.
[00:40:20] Uh, what you want to be able to do is to say, here’s what Alex wants us to do. Here’s the decision. Here are the reasons for the decision. So this is what we’re going to do. And if somebody on your team asks you, do you agree or disagree? I think it’s okay to say, I disagree, but I’m not the decider in this case. And so let’s do, let’s implement this decision in the way that works best for everybody. And again, here are the reasons for the decision. I think that the TLDR here is what I would recommend this listener to do, is to take the time to solicit feedback from your direct report. And understand, is this, does this direct report have some legitimate criticism for you?
[00:41:08] And if so, hooray! You know, you’re going to learn something and you’re going to improve. Does this direct report just have kind of an anti authoritarian, I hate all bosses, uh, kind of attitude and if so, can you get past it. Because I think that one of the least comfortable things about being a manager is that you do become kind of a projection screen for everybody’s unresolved authority issues. And so the more you can like figure out a way to get that screen down and really have a real human relationship, this is part of why it’s important to try to get on a level playing field. You know, okay, can you talk to me as a human being? And you know, and what can I do to lay my power down so we can get on the same page and really have a conversation? Try that.
[00:42:01] And if this person, you know, it’s just an asshole. It’s better to have a hole than an asshole, uh, and get going on that PIP. But don’t go into this conversation having already decided that this person is an asshole. Go into this trying to figure out what’s going on. This may be a manager, look yourself in the mirror, kind of situation where maybe you’ve done something that has contributed to this person’s frustration. Uh, maybe this person is a young rebel who’s going to be an awesome employee, but you need to figure out how to be a rebel leader and not, um, you know, not, not fall into this role of, you’ve gotta, you gotta, you know, kick up kinda situation, uh, and maybe this person’s just a jerk. You just don’t know.
[00:42:53] Brandi Neal: Yeah. So Kim, I was wondering what is the next step for Alex after soliciting feedback from Sam and nothing has changed? Before you want to put that person on a performance improvement plan, do you need to give them some sort of very concrete specific chance to improve their behavior and how do you let them know about that?
[00:43:17] Kim Scott: Yeah, that’s a great question So, what do you do if you have solicited feedback and you’ve decided the problem is number three. That, that Sam is just toxic. Uh, so, and you don’t want to decide that yourself. You want to make sure that you talk to HR and that you talk to other people who engage with Sam. And, because it’s always possible that, that you and Sam just, like you’re oil and water. And so you want to make sure that you’re soliciting feedback from others in an appropriate way, from your boss, etcetera. So, but let’s say you’ve done all those things. You’ve talked to HR and you’ve talked to other people who work with Sam and everybody that you’ve spoken with agrees that it’s time for Sam to go. That Sam has just done too much damage to too many different people.
[00:44:16] So the first thing you want to do, is you want to make sure you get your ducks in a row. So you want to make sure that you are, that when you put someone on a performance improvement plan, it’s not just the euphemism, you really are, you really do have to give them an opportunity to improve their performance and salvage the situation. And sometimes people really will salvage the situation. Sometimes you’ve given someone feedback that their behavior is a problem or that their performance is a problem and they have kind of heard it. But they don’t think it matters until they get this performance improvement plan. And sometimes it’s just the kind of kick in the pants that the person needs.
[00:45:00] So you want to go in, uh, you want to write this thing in a way that if Sam turns their behavior around a hundred and eighty degrees, they can keep the job, right? That it’s not a foregone conclusion that you’re gonna fire them. Uh, and you also don’t want to write a performance improvement plan that is so, like, oh if you show up at work every day, then you can keep your job, you know. You want to make sure that it really clearly addresses the behavioral problems that you’ve seen. And so the key is that this is sort of like a formalization of the last fifteen or twenty or thirty conversations you’ve had, feedback conversations, so, with Sam.
[00:45:50] So let’s assume that Alex is, has given Sam this feedback, behavior hasn’t improved. In fact, it’s gotten worse, and it’s clear that it’s not just a Sam Alex problem, but that it’s a Sam problem. And it, and Sam needs to go. So you sit down and you say, uh, that, one of the things, like in this case, Sam needs to, uh, bring up questions about decisions that Alex has made and that other managers have made, directly with that manager, rather than talk, talking bad about those managers behind those managers backs. That they need to challenge directly, not, uh, not kind of stir the pot, um, politically, which is what it seems like Sam was doing.
[00:46:44] That’s, I think, the big problem that, uh, that Alex had with Sam, is that Sam was actively undermining other members of the management team. And you need to give examples of Sam having done that in the past. And say that this kind of behavior, if it continues, is going to be a problem. So, Sam needs to stop doing that. Uh, and you need to say, like, if there’s any more, uh, examples of this, Sam does not pass the plan, right? That’s number one. It seems like, let’s imagine that Sam, uh, was sort of behaved in a bullying manner, not only to Alex, but to other people. So you want to say bullying behavior, um, is, uh, is grounds for termination.
[00:47:34] And you want to give examples, not just of Sam bullying Alex, but other examples of bullying behavior. You want to put those in the PIP and say any, this behavior must stop. And if other similar, uh, examples happen, then blah, blah, blah. Um, and then you probably want to say something about listen, challenge, commit to decisions about who gets promoted. Uh, and what the expectations are for Sam’s direct reports, because Sam doesn’t seem to be participating in the calibration meetings around promotion. So say something about Sam managing their team and, uh, and understanding the broader perspective. I’m now making stuff up, but those are the kinds of things that you would want to put it in the PIP, uh, I think. So what do you all think about that? Does that make sense?
[00:48:29] Brandi Neal: Yeah, that makes sense to me. Um, but the one question I had just so everything is crystal clear to Sam. So as far as, so they’re on the PIP.
[00:48:39] Kim Scott: Well, okay, so you got to have a conversation. You can’t just put Sam on the PIP.
[00:48:42] Brandi Neal: You’re gonna have a conversation. Things don’t improve, then they get on the PIP. Do you tell Sam up front, like part of this PIP is if you don’t do X by Y you will not be included in the bonus pool or does that come as some surprise at the end of the PIP, like, oh, because you weren’t a PIP, you don’t get a bonus? Like, how do you be as clear as possible about everything that’s gonna happen?
[00:49:08] Kim Scott: So if someone bullies others, and if someone is only bullying you, their manager, this doesn’t hold. But this is if, so I’m assuming for the purposes of answering your conversation, that Sam has bullied Sam’s peers. Sam has been kind of a bully to their direct reports. So it’s up, down, and sideways, Sam’s bullying. You want to create conversational consequences. So you want to shut it down in the moment. And that was sort of what I tried to do in the conversation.
[00:49:35] Brandi Neal: Right.
[00:49:36] Kim Scott: You also want to create compensation consequences, and this should be understood as part of the compensation system. That if you bully others, you are not eligible for a bonus, um, and so, if you’re giving someone feedback, sort of impromptu two minute Radical Candor conversation. And you say you bullied others and this person seems to blow it off. You might say, as a reminder, our bonus program, uh, is such that anyone who bullies others is not eligible for a bonus. Uh, and then the third thing are career consequences. And the idea of career consequences is that you don’t promote a jerk. So I, so Alex is clearly not going to promote Sam. But the worst thing Alex could do is say, maybe Sam will get off my back if I promote them. Like, that’s not going to work out well. So you don’t promote a bully. Because there comes a moment on too many teams history when the jerks begin to win. And that’s the moment when, uh, when the culture begins to lose.
[00:50:45] Brandi Neal: Yeah.
[00:50:45] Kim Scott: Uh, and so instead you want to give the person feedback, which Alex seems to have done with Sam, that this kind of behavior is kind of bullying behavior. And now, by the way, like, I think in our roleplay it did move into bullying, but I’m not sure, I’m not sure from either the question that the listener asked or from the roleplay that I would characterize Sam’s behavior as bullying. But let’s say, for the purposes of answering your question, that it was bullying. Uh, then what I would say is, you’ve got to give this person feedback, because sometimes people are bullies and they don’t realize it. Like, in my description of the guy on my team who said, ah, you know, I care more about my run than you people.
[00:51:31] Uh, he really was not actually trying to be a jerk. I mean, it sounds so obnoxious. But he really had some, he, you know, he had some questions about human behavior and once I explained it to him, he was quite lovely, he got it. I really like this person. Uh, but that moment was not that person’s most likable moment. So you want to make sure that you’re not too quick to assign a label to this person. Uh, and you want to give them feedback, you want to work with them. And then if you decide their behavior is just unacceptable, you’ve got to fire them. And very often, someone who is sort of hard charging and, uh, and bullying, not all people who are hard charging are bullying, but someone who refuses to change their bullying behavior, they do sometimes get results.
[00:52:23] And very often people will say to me, uh, you know, I can’t possibly fire that person because they get such great results. And what I say to that is, it’s better to have a hole than an asshole. You gotta get rid of, and there’s enormous amounts of research. Uh, Bob Sutton has, who wrote the No Asshole Rule and the Asshole Survival Guide, has written a lot, uh, has done a lot of research that shows when you remove someone who tends to bully others on the team, then the whole results of the team, even someone who’s getting good results, but the collective results are hurt by that person’s behavior. And when you remove that person, the results of the team actually improve. They don’t, they aren’t hurt by it. So those are some thoughts on creating consequences for bullying. Uh, that I think are worth going into, although again, from this question, I’m not sure I’m prepared to say that Sam is a bully.
[00:53:22] Amy Sandler: Now it’s time for our Radical Candor checklist, tips to start putting Radical Candor into practice. Tip number one, get it before you give it. So for our letter writer, we’re calling Alex, remember to not skip the first step of Radical Candor and start by soliciting feedback. Even if you feel like you’ve done this already, it’s always important to check in. And Kim has shared a very helpful tip, uh, a question that she got from a manager. It seems like you hate my guts. Might be a good place to start.
[00:53:57] Kim Scott: That really changed my behavior because I’m a little like Sam. I’m a little bit of a rebel.
[00:54:02] Amy Sandler: That’s why I played the, uh, the role for you today.
[00:54:04] Kim Scott: All right. Tip number two, don’t be too fast to hit the bozo bit. It is really hard to be a manager and to feel like you are a projection screen for everyone’s unresolved authority issues. Try to remember that that is part of the job. It’s a hard part of the job, but take a deep breath, allow people to challenge you, encourage people to challenge you. And be prepared to be the emotional shock absorber. Don’t go in demanding that people love you and respect you. That’s not going to work.
[00:54:40] Amy Sandler: Tip number three, building on the first two tips for our manager, encourage your direct report to listen, challenge, commit. Creating a culture where we listen, we have our direct reports challenge us, and then we also commit after we have challenged.
[00:55:01] Kim Scott: In fact, you have a right to ask your director for it, to commit, to get on board at some point. You don’t have to argue endlessly. Alright, tip number four. If you have decided that this situation is just not going to work out. You’ve given so much feedback, you’ve solicited so much feedback, and you’re moving towards a PIP. Make sure that in the next couple of conversations you have with this person you challenge even more directly so that there is no ambiguity and what you’re saying. And that you document what has happened. That, that you are ready to write down exactly what needs to change and by when.
[00:55:43] Amy Sandler: For more tips, to see the show notes for this episode go on over to radicalcandor.com/podcasts. Praise in public, criticize in private. And if you like what you hear, please do rate and review us wherever you’re listening. If you’ve got criticism, or if you have a question that you’d like to hear discussed on the podcast, like our friend Alex did, thank you so much, we read every email. Please do email us podcast@radicalcandor.com. Bye for now.
[00:56:15] Kim Scott: Take care, everyone.
[00:56:16] Amy Sandler: The Radical Candor podcast is based on the book Radical Candor: Be a Kick Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity by Kim Scott. Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal, with script editing by me, Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by me, still Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn, Radical Candor, the company, and visit us at radicalcandor.com.
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Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer.
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