nepotism and workplace bullying

When the Nepo Baby is a Bully 6 | 42

We need to talk about nepotism and workplace bullying, because WHEW, does it ever mess with our ability to Care Personally and Challenge Directly! Here’s the real deal — when family ties eclipse talent, we’re not just hurting individual careers. We’re poisoning the well of psychological safety that teams need to thrive. How can you tell someone to “bring their whole self to work” when the rules aren’t the same for everyone? On this week’s episode, Kim, Jason, and Amy are diving into the complexities of nepotism, looking at how it gives unfair advantages and impacts the culture at work.

Listen to the episode:

Episode at a Glance: Nepotism and Workplace Bullying

 
 

Here’s what we’ve learned (often the hard way): avoiding these conversations doesn’t help anyone. Whether you’re dealing with the CEO’s daughter who’s actually crushing it, or the founder’s cousin who’s… not so much, you’ve got to stay rooted in those two key principles: Care Personally AND Challenge Directly.

Because yes, you CAN navigate this while keeping your soul intact! Let’s dig in and talk about how to build fair, kick-ass teams even when family dynamics are in play.

Remember, the goal isn’t to destroy relationships — it’s to build stronger ones based on trust and Radical Candor. And sometimes that means having those uncomfortable conversations about why your VP’s son might not be the best fit for that management role.

What situations have you encountered with nepotism? We’d love to hear your stories and strategies!

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Radical Candor Podcast Tips: Nepotism and Workplace Bullying

 

  1. If you’re the one being bullied, document things as soon as they happen on your personal device or in a notebook so you don’t feel gaslit. If you’re the upstander, your ability to document bad behavior can be an invaluable service to people harmed by bullying—whether because they want to report an episode (and third-party evidence helps) or simply because it is comforting to get a reality check that what happened to them was wrong. An upstander can take notes of what is happening during an incident in a way that the person harmed can’t.
  2. Build solidarity and find others in the organization who share your concerns. A collective voice can be more powerful than a single one, and it can also provide a support system for those affected by bullying. If the situation doesn’t improve, assess your personal and professional boundaries. It’s important to work in an environment where you feel respected and valued. If the culture remains toxic, you might need to consider whether this is the right place for you in the long term.
  3.  If you feel comfortable, cleanly escalate the situation to having a 3-way conversation with the bullying son and the CEO or their boss. If you can, it’s best to have direct conversations instead of over delegating to HR.

The TLDR Radical Candor Podcast Transcript

nepotism and workplace bullying

 

[00:00:00] Kim Scott: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Radical Candor podcast. I’m Kim Scott. 

[00:00:07] Jason Rosoff: I’m Jason Rosoff. 

[00:00:09] Amy Sandler: And I’m Amy Sandler. And before you listen to this episode, we have a big favor to ask. Please do like, follow and subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. It really does make a difference. Thank you in advance. 

[00:00:23] So today we’ve got a question from a listener about something that we haven’t talked about much, which is nepotism. And more specifically, how nepotism affects your ability to practice Radical Candor. 

[00:00:37] Before I go into the question, we have kind of the textbook definition of nepotism. But Kim, do you want to give your own definition of nepotism in the workplace? 

[00:00:48] Kim Scott: Yeah, I mean, I guess there’s two different definitions.

[00:00:52] Sometimes you have family business and there’s kind of, I guess what I would call expected nepotism or legitimate nepotism. Uh, and then there’s another definition of nepotism where you give unfair, uh, preference or advantages to people who either are in your family or for whatever reason, who are your quote unquote favorites. I don’t know, but let’s get the official definition. 

[00:01:23] Amy Sandler: So the definition, 

[00:01:25] Kim Scott: The nepo-tition, 

[00:01:26] Amy Sandler: The nepo-tition, 

[00:01:29] Kim Scott: The definition of nepotism.

[00:01:32] Amy Sandler: In the workplace is when someone in a position of power gives jobs, promotions or other opportunities to friends or family members instead of based on merit. Nepotism can be harmful to workplace culture and can lead to a number of negative consequences, which we’ll talk about.

[00:01:50] But at a high level, this includes things like lowered morale, decreased productivity, damaged trust increased turnover, and a whole host of other issues. And some of the ways in which nepotism shows up, overt job offers, more discreet forms of favoritism, um, folks get selected for certain top projects, preferred shifts, merit pay increases. And it’s not illegal in the private sector. It is unethical and can have consequences that are destructive. 

[00:02:22] And I think to Kim, your point that obviously in a family business, sometimes by default or by definition, um, that is part of program, uh, to much who is given, to much is asked, in terms of responsibilities from that. Um, and this is actually the situation that we’re going to see from our listeners.

[00:02:42] So they write, I recently heard Kim speak at an event. She said, it’s better to have a hole than an asshole. 

[00:02:50] Kim Scott: People love it when I say that. 

[00:02:52] Amy Sandler: They really do. Um, just, I’m going to go on a little bit to be clear about what they’re referring to. So this is not an NSFW podcast. What if the asshole is unfireable? As in my case now, where the bully in question is a twenty something CEO son of a large privately owned company. They joined our division last year and since taking a wrecking ball to many respected professionals in the department, including some of the executives, by humiliating them publicly and berating people openly. This person continues to write, while I am not on the receiving end of the abuse, it hurts me to see other people being mistreated this way, while everyone is silently standing by. I’ve tried to provide some feedback to this person directly, at the risk of being fired, but nothing changed. What can I do in this situation? 

[00:03:45] Kim Scott: This is a hard situation. 

[00:03:48] Amy Sandler: Yeah. 

[00:03:48] Kim Scott: So first of all, uh, I want to extend my compassion to the person who’s in this situation because you know, the next step is joint escalation, right? And, uh, or clean escalation. And that means going with this person, that this person’s father, I’m assuming. But, I don’t know if that was made, if the genders were made clear, but this person’s parent. Uh, and that’s real, that’s why nepotism can be a problem is because doing that is in general, giving feedback to your boss is uncomfortable.

[00:04:30] Uh, clean escalation to their boss is even more uncomfortable. And when, that person’s boss is also their parent, it feels, it can feel impossible. So it may not be possible to do what I’m going to recommend. But here’s, here are the things that I think one could do to prepare for this conversation. Uh, and we’ve talked about this before. But it’s like how to speak truth to power without blowing up your career. 

[00:05:03] The first thing I think to do is to document what’s happening. I just jot down quickly, and there’s going to be an episode coming up with Susan Rigetti about how to document, uh, these kinds of things. Note down what’s happening if, you should not write it down on a work computer, uh, you shouldn’t write it down on a work, um, you know, program. So write it down on some kind of private device, whether it’s a notebook with a pencil and a piece of paper, your own personal computer or personal phone. Uh, so just jot down, and document doesn’t have to mean like writing a novel. It can just mean, uh sort of sending an email to someone you trust saying this happened today. Can you believe it? Um, and if you document that way, you’re doing what’s called creating a contemporaneous record. Uh, the other thing that Susan Rigetti, uh, suggested, Susan Rigetti, uh, was Susan Fowler who wrote the Uber blog post about the way she was treated there.

[00:06:13] Is if abusive comments get made over email or on slack or whatever, take pictures with a personal phone of them, uh, and save them somewhere. So do you all, Jason or Amy, do you all have thoughts on documentation? Like, have you been in a situation where you had a document, what was happening and what is your advice on how to document?

[00:06:38] Jason Rosoff: I feel fortunate to say that I haven’t been in a situation where I’ve had to document. I’ve been on the other side of this where, 

[00:06:45] Kim Scott: You’ve received some documentation. 

[00:06:47] Jason Rosoff: Correct. And what I will say is, I think the documentation thing is important, uh, because it, mostly because it protects you from feeling like, the most important thing that it does is it helps you feel connected to reality. That this is, this stuff is in fact happening. Because in this particular, the reason why I say that is, because in this particular situation, it’s not clear that if the company slash, uh, CEO were to receive high quality documentation that they would do anything with it.

[00:07:20] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:07:21] Jason Rosoff: Uh, we don’t have, there’s no guarantee of that. So, but like one, one of the hard parts about being in and being bullied, especially because it’s often, in this case, it seems like it’s very obvious. But there may be subtler things that are going on that are happening that, that you have to document. And those could be sort of crazy making to feel like you’re being harassed or bullied and you don’t trust your own memory. So writing it down is like very, it’s very helpful for that. 

[00:07:48] Kim Scott: And I’m going to wave the purple flag and saying it can be sort of gaslight inducing rather crazy making, although I know what you mean. Uh, yes, uh, totally agree that, and I think that’s such an important point, Jason. That you want to make sure that you are not planning to bring this pile of documentation into a conversation. But that you remember that you’re doing this so that you don’t feel gaslit by the situation, so that you remember what has happened when. And because it is especially with bullying, I mean one of the one of the key tactics that bullies, uh, use is, oh, I was just kidding or it’s no big deal or why are you being oversensitive or any of those I’ve been on the receiving end of all of those at different points. And I’ve actually also been on the dishing out, I’ve been, I’ve said that to someone. Oh, it’s no big deal like and I’m ashamed to admit that but I have and I think.

[00:08:49] Amy Sandler: I think it’s helpful, Kim, that to name that because I think there’s this human tendency to kind of know what our intention is. But to, you know, potentially minimize the impact and actually I’m curious when you think of those, again, to the point that this might be helpful for our listeners. Like, those moments when that has happened for you, do you know why, like, what, was that just sort of a knee jerk response? Did you actually, like, what were you trying to do there? 

[00:09:18] Kim Scott: So what had happened was I had messed up. There was someone who referred to the women on his team as girls instead of women. And I hadn’t told him that that was a problem. And he had been doing it for a couple of months. And I kept telling myself, oh, I’m going to wait for a better moment, which usually means I’m never going to say this because it’s uncomfortable.

[00:09:44] And then he had a meeting with my boss, who was Sheryl Sandberg. And she did not, uh, remain silent when he sat down and referred to the girls on his team. That was all they talked about for the whole meeting. And he came into my office later, sort of with the, why didn’t you tell me? And I felt bad. Yeah. Like I felt guilty. 

[00:10:10] And very often when I feel guilty, and I don’t think I’m alone in this, when I feel guilty I try to dismiss what happened, pretend like it didn’t happen or pretend like it doesn’t matter. And so my first instinct was to make a joke of it. And I turned to the other two guys who were sitting in my office, who had worked with me for a longer time. And who, with whom I had this conversation about not referring to women as girls.

[00:10:36] And I mean, and to be fair to me, I was also really sick and tired of having this conversation. And, uh, and so I just looked at them and I said, well, you can thank me now, you know, because Sheryl didn’t jump down your throat because I told you. And the new guy on the team looked at me and he said that, why didn’t you tell me too? Like, why didn’t any of you all tell me? It was like, yet again, one of these moments.

[00:11:02] And I then felt bad and rather than acknowledging what I had done wrong, I said, oh, it’s no big deal. And, uh, and so why did I do that? I don’t, you know, I, you know, how some, there’s some things you do and you hear one of your parents on your shoulder. That’s my dad on my shoulder telling me don’t make such a big deal of it. Yeah, you know, uh, and, uh, who I love and respect, uh, and miss terribly. So I’m not trying to knock myself or my father. But this is like, this is human. 

[00:11:36] Amy Sandler: Yeah. 

[00:11:37] Kim Scott: We feel bad when we have done wrong and often we don’t respond well when we feel bad, 

[00:11:43] Amy Sandler: I really appreciate that, and then the nod to your father. Um, and I think it does help to humanize those responses. I think that’s, you know, you in writing Radical Respect, really looking at, not only the times when you have been harmed, um, but when you are the person doing harm. And I think that is such a valuable exercise for all of us to go through, especially when there is power involved, and I think it just helps give a little bit more space in our responses. One of the things I wanted to go into more detail on was that, Jason, when you were talking about the value of documenting so that, you know, we don’t feel gaslit and that we feel like we’re actually acknowledging what was happening. Where do you stand on not just documenting, but actually, uh, talking to other people in the organization?

[00:12:34] I know typically, you know, from a sort of manipulative insincerity, Radical Candor framework, where we don’t want to be talking about people, we want to be talking to them. But in this case, where it’s really about building solidarity, especially in this family business, where people are observing this behavior. What kind of guidance would you have, um, for this person writing in about how to talk to other people to potentially build in some solidarity? 

[00:13:02] Jason Rosoff: So great question. One point of clarification. I don’t think we know for sure that this is a family business. Like, we don’t know that it was handed down from generation to generation. What we do know is that the CEO decided to bring their child in, to hire their son. So as you were asking this question, there’s a couple of things coming to mind. I, one thing that’s not entirely clear is what position the person who wrote the note is in the organization. Because I think there’s one thing about building solidarity, which is you want to build solidarity like across and up. You don’t want to try to build solidarity down. Meaning you don’t want to like dump the burden of this on to a person in the organization who has even less power than you do. 

[00:13:43] Because one, they’re unlikely to be able to help you, uh, although, you know, maybe at a personal level, if your goal is to resolve, try to resolve the issue, they’re unlikely to be a point of leverage for you to resolve the issue. And two, I think it has, it could have the appearance of sort of, uh, backstabbing, right? Like where you’re trying to undermine this person by talking to people, uh, sort of further down the hierarchy of the organization, even than you. So that’s one thing that occurred to me that I’ve, I think people mostly have the instinct to do that, to like find a peer or a manager, someone that they trust in the organization to build solidarity with. Um, but I wanted to name that because I think it can get tricky.

[00:14:24] Um, personally, I think, especially given that this person shared, the person who wrote the note to us, shared that they tried to deliver some feedback and they failed. Uh, the thing that I would be looking for if I was them is like, you know, who’s someone who seems to have a reasonably good relationship? It sounds like this person is like a bull in a china shop, is like smashing everything in sight. But there’s got to be someone who seems to be able to get through to them from time to time, right? Maybe they’re not friends, um, and I would ask that person. And instead of sharing exactly what’s going on, I would ask that person for some advice to say like, hey, it seems like you can get through to so and so occasionally.

[00:15:04] I have some feedback that I’ve been meaning to deliver. Like, is there any guidance that you can share with me about, you know, what, what has worked? Um, and if that person doesn’t exist, then I think you do need to talk to your boss. Like who, whoever that is, and say, you know, I tried to resolve this on my own. I was unable, I was unsuccessful, and you know, this is affecting me. It’s affecting other people on the team. I think we need to raise this issue, I’d like your help doing that. Part of being a boss is to help cleanly escalate, uh, issues like that, that are complex like this. And so I think it’s a perfectly fine ask of your manager.

[00:15:44] Kim Scott: My assumption from reading this, but maybe I didn’t read it very carefully, is that the CEO’s son is the person, is this person’s boss. But maybe I’m wrong. So cleanly escalating is cleanly escalating to the person who’s a bully and then they’re gonna have to go to the CEO next. But maybe I’m wrong about that, I was, that’s a nightmare scenario, but. 

[00:16:07] Jason Rosoff: Yes, I read it slightly differently. But in that case, I think, if the CEO, if the CEO’s son has a peer, you could try that. 

[00:16:17] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:16:18] Jason Rosoff: Like a peer manager, someone at the same level of the organization before you went all the way to the CEO. Uh, and like, I, it’s not this person’s job to fix this situation. Like, I think that, that’s like the most important thing. Like, there’s one person’s job it is to fix this and that is the CEO. So everything that this person does, if they follow any of our recommendations, like they’re already going, from my perspective, going above and beyond to try to like help this person and the company do better. 

[00:16:46] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:16:46] Jason Rosoff: So I just want to say, I wanted to say that. Because I feel like it’s easy to hear all of this advice and feel like what we’re saying is it’s your job to fix this, but it’s not actually your job. 

[00:16:58] Kim Scott: Yeah, that’s a really important point. I think in terms of building solidarity, the thing that I would say about bullying is that, I’m thinking out loud here, so feel free to tell me I’m wrong. But I think it might be an exception to the challenge directly. Like, I think it’s okay. 

[00:17:22] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. 

[00:17:22] Kim Scott: If you notice one person bullying another person, I think it’s fine to go to the person who was bullied, the person who was harmed, and to be, in part of being an upstander, if you didn’t feel like you could challenge directly in the moment, you go to the person who is harmed, you say, I saw this happen to you. I’m sorry that it happened. I’m going to try to do something about it. And that’s a way of building solidarity because now you’re giving this person, you’re not telling this person what to think. You’re saying, 

[00:17:53] Jason Rosoff: Yeah.

[00:17:54] Kim Scott: This is what I saw. This is how it impacted me, how did it impact you? And if the person says, yeah, you’re right. You know, I really did feel bullied. Then that is, that’s good information. That’s a way of building solidarity. Uh, that is, I mean, you are talking about this person’s son behind their back. But I think sometimes you have to do that in order to figure out how to deal with someone who is in a position of power, who is a bully. So I think it’s, I think maybe this is an exception to challenge directly, kind of. What do you think? 

[00:18:30] Amy Sandler: I really appreciate that, Kim, because I feel like people, it gives people a next step to do. So if they don’t feel safe going directly to that person, whether it’s because of power or, uh, or otherwise. And by the way, just again, to giving kudos to the person who wrote in of how much they’ve already done. 

[00:18:50] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:18:50] Amy Sandler: They, just to reiterate. I’ve tried to provide some feedback to this person directly at the risk of being fired. 

[00:18:55] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:18:56] Amy Sandler: But nothing changed. Um, and that they feel, you know, it hurts them to see other people being mistreated this way. I think that, you know, to feel like this person, one next step is to actually go check in with those people who are being mistreated. I’m making an assumption, given how empathetic this person is, that they may have already done that. But if they haven’t, um, that seems like another fine recommendation. What you’re saying is actually check in and let them know that you observed that and you wanted to see how it landed for them. 

[00:19:25] Kim Scott: Yeah. And you’re sorry. And I think it’s important to do, to acknowledge. And I was in a situation recently in my personal life where this happened. Somebody really got badly, badly bullied and I could not fix it. All I could do was remain in solidarity with this person. And I mean, I tried, but I failed to fix it.

[00:19:49] And, uh, and I feel bad that I failed to fix it. But I would have felt worse if I hadn’t, sort of been in solidarity with the person who was being treated badly, um, along the way. So I think it’s important to do that for your own sake. Like if I notice somebody getting bullied and I do nothing, it wakes me up at three in the morning. And so both for their sake, but also for my own sake, it’s important to do something. 

[00:20:17] So that’s part of why building solidarity. So you’re documenting so that you don’t feel gaslit. Maybe also as you document, you try to have some inkling of compassion, even for the bully, because sometimes bullies don’t realize what they’re doing. Uh, then you’re building solidarity, you’re talking to the people who are harmed and showing them that you noticed what happened and that you care. And then the third thing I think to do, uh, is to locate the exit nearest you. Like make sure that you know what your best alternative to a negotiated agreement is before you go into another conversation where you’re gonna, where you’re going to escalate cleanly.

[00:20:58] Uh, and so it’s, because it’s so easy in a situation like this where bullying is happening to feel trapped. And when you feel trapped you give the bully a lot more power. And so, I think it’s important to know if, you know, how hard would it be for you to get another job if you did just walk away. Do you have savings or somebody’s couch you can sleep on, um, like what would you do if you did get fired? And that will help you, that will help guide the direct conversation that I’m going to recommend having next. Does that make sense? 

[00:21:37] Amy Sandler: It does. It’s a real plot twist. I’m like on the edge of my seat for the conversation.

[00:21:41] Brandi Neal: Can I? 

[00:21:41] Amy Sandler: Yes, Brandi. 

[00:21:42] Brandi Neal: I’m just thinking of like, there are people who could never leave, who could not, who would not have any options and that’s where the silence starts happening. I’m just thinking of like my mom when I was growing up, like she couldn’t leave that job. Um, what do those people do? 

[00:22:00] Amy Sandler: Yeah. And Brandi, just to add a very current example, you found also, in addition to that story, which has a direct relationship to you, there was a recent, uh, Reddit post. We’ll put it in the show notes where someone is having trouble with the CEO’s son and their boss explained the policy. And the reason I want to mention it is because Kim, one of the things that was there was that this person said, uh, they feel like applying somewhere else isn’t really in the cards for them. They were really lucky to land the job. They’re fresh out of university. They don’t have any real experience. They’ve been here three months, so haven’t really worked up enough experience to just change jobs. 

[00:22:40] Kim Scott: Uh, so I think that it is really important to know, uh, if you really can’t afford to change jobs, to quit, then you may not want to take the next step, you know, that I’m about to recommend. Like if you can quit then you, then it’s easier to take the next step. That’s why I say you should always do these three things, document what’s happening, build solidarity with others. And if you cannot quit, if you are well and truly stuck, which happens to all of us at certain points in our career, uh, and, uh, and so I want to acknowledge that often is the case.

[00:23:26] Then I, what I recommend is you buy Bob Sutton’s book, The Asshole Survival Guide, and you take his advice. Because I think you, it’s also important to recognize that having a bully at work can be very damaging to your mental and physical health. And so you want to figure out how you’re going to protect your, if you have to stay, how you’re going to stay and be protected.

[00:23:53] Amy Sandler: Is there one tip from Bob Sutton’s book that especially leaps out at you, Kim? 

[00:23:57] Kim Scott: I think that one of the most important things that he will say is go back to that building solidarity. Like being able to talk to other people who are noticing the same thing and, uh, and either, you know, laugh or cry with them, depending on what the situation is, is really important. Having someone who you do trust at work can help you feel, you know less despondent at work. I think that was some of, but he also, you know, continue documenting so that you recognize. There’s also this, yes, this person is doing this thing to me and it’s terrible. Like recognizing that sometimes we are the victim of something and that it’s not our fault. I think it’s really important like, and in Down Girl, Kate Manne talks about the importance of being able to do that. To acknowledge when you are, uh, when you are stuck in a situation and you’re being, you’re being bullied, you’re being, um, you know, treated terribly. You need to recognize that this is a bad thing that’s happened, that other, and the problem is that other person is bad, not, you know, you don’t want to internalize the badness. Does that make sense? 

[00:25:21] Amy Sandler: Yeah. 

[00:25:22] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. 

[00:25:23] Amy Sandler: Brandi, did that address your question? 

[00:25:25] Kim Scott: It’s not a satisfactory answer, I want to acknowledge that. 

[00:25:28] Brandi Neal: No, yes. I just want to make sure. I feel sometimes we over simplify things. And I’m just thinking of people I know from like lower middle class communities that there’s not another option. You have, you’re a single mom with kids and you need the insurance and you have bad credit and it’s not, there’s nothing you can do. So. 

[00:25:49] Kim Scott: Yeah. I think you’re right about that. And I think it’s also true that people do often feel more stuck than they actually are. So, yes, sometimes, and, more often probably than, we need to talk more about what to do.

[00:26:06] Brandi Neal: Right. But when you’re flying that low to the ground, it just takes one eviction, one, just takes one thing that can make it so hard for you to ever get back up. 

[00:26:17] Kim Scott: Yes. 

[00:26:18] Brandi Neal: So, I just want to acknowledge that. 

[00:26:21] Kim Scott: Yes, yes, absolutely. And if you can, if you can get another job, it’s especially important, I think, given, uh, given how dependent you are on an income. 

[00:26:34] Jason Rosoff: I think part of what Kim is saying is that sometimes the knowledge or fear that we’re sort of one bad thing away from, you know, disaster causes us not to examine what’s possible. Like, we’re so afraid that we don’t even try, like, you know what I’m saying, we lose the will to try to figure out if something, if there is another way. This is definitely, like, not blame, I’m not blaming the victim here, I’m just calling out that part of being sort of oppressed in some way or another is that you lose the hope for, like, some good outcome. And part of what Kim is saying is, like, it’s sort of an act of self compassion, like a revolutionary act of self compassion to like at least explore what the options might be.

[00:27:20] Because you’re pushing back against the sort of the weight of that oppression, whatever, whether it’s economic or racial, whatever it is, like, you’re pushing back against that oppression to say, you know, maybe a positive change is possible. And if you look at that with open eyes, like, you might find that there is a path for you. But you also might find that there isn’t. And I think what Kim is saying is like, if that is your assessment, then you should be very careful about taking further steps to try to address the issue and instead focus on trying to protect your well being. 

[00:27:51] Kim Scott: And I think there’s also times when you are so flat out busy. Like maybe you have two or three jobs, you know, and you just don’t have time to look for another job. And that happened. And the last thing I would want is for someone listening to this to feel guilty that they don’t have that extra time. Like, like sometimes you’re flat out and you don’t have time. And so then protect yourself. 

[00:28:15] Amy Sandler: Yeah. 

[00:28:16] Jason Rosoff: Yep. 

[00:28:16] Amy Sandler: I really appreciate you bringing this in Brandi, I think it’s so important and it’s reminding me, I can’t remember which episode we talked about this. Maybe you’ll be able to remember this one, but we were talking about the value of actually, uh, that it’s hard for people to ask for help sometimes, and that people would really want to help. Jason, I remember you were sharing about, you didn’t know that somebody needed help. And if they had asked, you would have been happy. It was like, oh, I don’t have a couch. But it’s like you actually, there, there could be couches that you’re not aware of. And so I think it just, to me, it’s almost like another part of the building solidarity is just checking that, that value of checking in with people and how are you doing and knowing that other people are observing it.

[00:29:01] Again, you may very intentionally choose to stay in that job because it’s your best economic decision. And maybe it becomes a little bit better knowing that your peers have got your back and they’re thinking of you and you know, there, there could be a support network that’s there. So again, just encouraging those who are there so that it’s not also just on the shoulders of our listener writing in, but for other people to broaden the upstanding and support.

[00:29:27] Brandi Neal: Yes, and I will say some of the best friend, work friendships I’ve made have been under those circumstances because everybody is feeling. It’s like, you know, friends you make in a war and you’ll always have that. Um, it does make it more tolerable. 

[00:29:44] Kim Scott: Yeah. And sometimes somebody you’ll, you say, oh, I noticed this thing happened. And this person will say, yep, um, uh, there’s so and so is hiring. I’m going to go there. Do you want to come too? Like, that’s another, there’s some building solidarity, there are very practical benefits to building solidarity. I mean, the time in my career, when I felt more trapped than I was, I mean, I was living in what was then the Soviet union.

[00:30:10] And, uh, so I was very far from home. I was dramatically underpaid. I was sexually assaulted twice at work. And it just, it never occurred to me that I could have gotten another job there. I just felt stuck. And, uh, and when I did wind up finally, um, getting another job as, just because somebody noticed what was happening and came to me and said here’s, what, go. Uh, so I was very lucky, uh, that that happened. Several other people came to me and said why didn’t you ask?

[00:30:44] Like why didn’t you ask? And so I just share that because sometimes if you ask around you’ll find. And asking is not begging, asking is soliciting an investment in your future because you are worth it. So, uh, ask with, uh, from a position of, uh, you know, I deserve this, not, I need help. So that’s part of building solidarity.

[00:31:17] Okay. So now, you know, uh, now this, now this listener has figured out like I could get another job or I couldn’t get another job. If you think you could get another job or you’d be okay, uh, now it’s time to have a direct conversation with this person and say, we, this is unacceptable and I’m going to escalate with you because I tried telling you once and it didn’t work.

[00:31:43] So I’m scheduling a meeting, uh, you know, and super awkward, maybe with your father. You, your father and I are going to sit down together. Um, and this is gonna, this is like, this is going to be rough, to go to this person and say that you’re doing this. But uh, you know, and maybe the CEO’s son doesn’t work for the CEO but works for someone else. Um, in that case, I would probably talk to the someone else before I go to the CEO’s son. 

[00:32:20] Amy Sandler: That was the question on my mind. I’m like, wow, that is, I’m getting very sweaty just thinking about going into that conversation with that person. Especially depending on where they are kind of hierarchically. 

[00:32:32] Kim Scott: I, my suspicion, my suspicion is that if the CEO knew that there’s, their child were behaving this way, uh, the CEO, if they have, if they’re worth their salt at all, would give their son some really serious feedback. Uh, I mean, but it’s not a good sign that the son doesn’t already know not to behave this way. 

[00:32:58] Jason Rosoff: It’s also not a great sign that the CEO doesn’t seem to be aware of it. I actually think that, 

[00:33:04] Kim Scott: It’s not surprising that the CEO is not aware of it because who’s gonna go tell the CEO that their child is behaving badly, that’s the problem with nepotism. Somehow this has to get to the CEO. 

[00:33:16] Jason Rosoff: Yes, I think that that is entirely fair. And it seems to me that there are many ways to make a CEO aware of something like this without actually criticizing their son. Meaning, like, you could say, you know, I’ve noticed that, you know, people in that department seem disgruntled, like, you know what I’m saying? I think there’s some indirect way there. And the fact that those indirect ways have not reached the CEO. Anyway, it indicates to me that yes, as much as it’s hard to like to address the source of the nepotism. I feel like if a leader is paying attention to what’s going on in their organization, there are probably signs that something is amiss with the team that their son is managing.

[00:34:08] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:34:09] Jason Rosoff: And it’s troubling to me that they’re completely unaware. Now you might be right, but it might be totally fair that, you know, maybe he works in one division. Um, the son works in one division and the CEO works somewhere completely different and they like don’t actually see each other very much. They don’t report, there’s no reporting relationship. And so therefore there’s just no visibility. It’s possible. But I have my doubts. 

[00:34:31] Kim Scott: I don’t know. I mean, it’s so hard to think that your child would behave this badly. I’m not, it’s just so hard. Uh, and so maybe I’m extending too much parental compassion to the CEO. But it’s impossible to believe that your child would behave this badly if this is, you know. So, and there are, I mean, 

[00:34:59] Jason Rosoff: But you’re assuming, I don’t, I’m not trying to throw anybody under the bus here, but you’re assuming that the CEO thinks this is bad behavior.

[00:35:07] Kim Scott: Yes, I am. I’m making a big assumption. I’m assuming, uh, but I mean, how could they not understand how, because their child looks weak and stupid to behave this way. Like who wants that? 

[00:35:27] Amy Sandler: Well, I’m so curious. I mean, based on that assumption, um, you know, that’s sort of one option. But Jason, when you were talking about, there’s other ways to get this information to the CEO. So I’m curious, like option A, CEO thinks this is a fine way to behave and culturally to berate executives in public. But let’s go with this person doesn’t know and this is antithetical to their culture. What are some specific tactics, um, these sort of more indirect ways that you feel like the information could get to the CEO if you’re this person writing in?

[00:35:59] Jason Rosoff: I mean, it sounds like it’s publicly visible. What’s like, what’s happening, right? Like that, that it is noticeable by other people, what is happening. 

[00:36:08] Amy Sandler: Yeah.

[00:36:08] Jason Rosoff: I feel like, I have been in a situation where I attend, let’s say, a cross functional meeting, or something like that. And I’m sitting there and I’m like, what is going, like, what is going on in here?

[00:36:21] And I notice that it’s a bunch of people on Kim’s team, for example, that seem really pissed about what’s, you know what I’m saying? They seem upset about what’s going on. And maybe I’m, you know, I feel like it’d be hard for me to approach Kim for some reason. Uh, or maybe I report directly to the CEO and I would say like, hey, I, like, I was in this meeting and I know there’s like some kind of tension going on this team. I don’t know exactly what it is, but something, something’s cooking over there. Like, 

[00:36:49] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:36:49] Jason Rosoff: Are you aware of anything that’s going on? Like I would check in, like if I were in a position to actually like talk to the CEO, I think there, there are a couple of ways to start to raise it. Because part of what I would want to know is like, how is this person, like, are they aware? You know what I’m saying? Like, I want a little bit of intel before I go dragging the son into a clean escalation meeting, which situation I’m walking into. Am I walking into a, that’s exactly what I’ve been telling him to do, because I think this team has been underperforming and we got to shake the, you know what I’m saying? Like, 

[00:37:21] Kim Scott: Yeah. You want to solicit a little feedback before you drop this bomb. So you would, so let me make sure I understand. So the advice is to go to the CEO and say, I’ve noticed there’s some tension on this meeting. Have you noticed it? 

[00:37:38] Jason Rosoff: Yeah, exactly. Like I’m curious, like a first step might be to be curious about it. I don’t know if this person has access to the CEO. Again, could be a huge company. Just because it’s privately held doesn’t mean it’s small. 

[00:37:51] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:37:51] Jason Rosoff: Um, uh, and so this might not be possible. Um, but the same thing if you were, if that’s the case, it might be true that the escalation wouldn’t go directly to CEO anyway, that this person might have, the CEO’s son might have a boss that’s not the CEO. And in that case, I might go to that person who I should probably have access to and say, like, you know, every staff meeting, 

[00:38:13] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:38:13] Jason Rosoff: Is like, there’s someone and it ends in tears for some, you know what I’m saying? 

[00:38:17] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:38:17] Jason Rosoff: Like there’s some observable behavior without naming, without blaming this person for it, to say, I’ve noticed this, are you aware? Or like, have you noticed it as well? 

[00:38:28] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:38:28] Jason Rosoff: Like, what do you think is going on there? 

[00:38:31] Kim Scott: Yeah. And then if the person says, yeah, well that’s the CEO’s son and the C, and the CEO thinks that’s, you should be in a meeting with the CEO. 

[00:38:41] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. 

[00:38:42] Kim Scott: Then you’ve gotta either start doing some serious self protection or polish up the old resume even to a finer sheen and get out of there. 

[00:38:53] Jason Rosoff: Yeah.

[00:38:53] Amy Sandler: Kim, the age old question on this point, and, oh, Jason, maybe, or, which is about HR, but we can pause that if, Jason, you want to go in a different direction. 

[00:39:02] Jason Rosoff: I think part of this is, if you’re in a functional organization, the, there should be a policy for exactly how to resolve these kinds of conflicts. Meaning there should be a documented pathway.

[00:39:13] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:39:13] Jason Rosoff: Like, Kim, Kim’s advice is really good when either the documented pathway has failed or there is no documented pathway. But in theory, bullying should be against the code of conduct in your organization. 

[00:39:29] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:39:30] Jason Rosoff: And if bullying is occurring, there should be some, there should be some pathway that HR has laid out, um, to help resolve those kinds of conflicts.

[00:39:38] Kim Scott: But my advice before you go to HR. Because I think one of the mistakes that people make is they over delegate to HR. So if you notice the behavior, I would try, I would figure out, am I going to talk to the CEO’s son’s boss? Am I going to talk to the CEO? Am I going to talk to the CEO’s son again? Those are kind of your choices of direct conversations to have. 

[00:40:05] I would, in theory, in theory, what I think would work best is to go to the CEO’s son again and say, look, I’ve noticed this behavior the following five times. Like this kind of bullying behavior, I think it’s hurting your ability to be effective and it’s hurting people who I care about.

[00:40:27] I’ve talked to you about it once. It didn’t change. I’ve got to escalate in some way. How, what would you like me to do? Do you want to, you know, do you want to go to your boss together? Do you want to go to your, to the CEO together? Do you want to go to HR together? But I would try the clean escalation path.

[00:40:47] Because it could be that this, the CEO’s son feels, you know, has a chip on his shoulder and feels like he’s been put into an impossible position. Like you want to give this, the CEO’s son an opportunity to do the right thing. Maybe one more opportunity and say, if it doesn’t change, I’m going to escalate in some way. So in theory, that’s the right.

[00:41:13] And if from the CEO’s son’s point of view, he’d much rather you go to him again and say, I’m going to set up this meeting. Because if he hear, if what happens next is that the CEO’s son hears that you’ve talked to his father or his boss without him in the room, like, you’re never going to have a relationship with that person. Or it’s going to be very difficult because this person feels like you’ve gone behind their back.

[00:41:39] Jason Rosoff: So I guess what was in my head is like, that should be exactly what HR is helping you accomplish. I don’t think you should have to figure all that stuff out on your own. So, like, the role of HR, I, like, in a good way, is not, like, the point is not to delegate the conversation or resolving the conflict to them. The point is to give them the tools to help you figure out, you know, 

[00:42:03] Kim Scott: What to do next.

[00:42:05] Jason Rosoff: And like what to say, like, are you, would they recommend that like this gets escalated to like, if it has to be escalated, are they going to say, we should escalate to the CEO or are they going to say we should, you know what I’m saying?

[00:42:16] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:42:16] Jason Rosoff: Like, HR should be offering you guidance. I’m not saying they should take over. 

[00:42:20] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:42:20] Jason Rosoff: A part of the problem is that because many workplace policies don’t address bullying effectively, you don’t even know that you can go to HR to get guidance. Like you don’t, you know what I’m saying?

[00:42:32] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:42:33] Jason Rosoff: Like, you don’t know what the process would be or what they would recommend. And many people have had the experience of, you go to HR and they say, we’re going to launch an investigation. And they basically get like cut out of the whole process in a weird way. 

[00:42:44] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:42:44] Jason Rosoff: And it feels like, uh, it becomes an inevitability that you have no relationship with that person ever again. 

[00:42:50] Kim Scott: Yes. And that certainly is what happened to Susan Rigetti at Uber, for example. 

[00:42:55] Jason Rosoff: Yup.

[00:42:55] Kim Scott: And yet she said it’s important to report to HR because that’s how you know what’s going on. Like, is this a systemic problem or is this a one person problem? And unfortunately she learned it was a systemic problem there, not just a one, one person. So I think that the question is, are we recommending to this person that they go directly to the CEO’s son again. And, uh, sort of say the next step is clean escalation, or are we saying go to HR? So, and I think you, that’s, there’s no absolute , uh, there’s no absolute rule there, uh, but that’s a decision to make. Are you going to try going to this person directly again or are you going to try doing something else? 

[00:43:57] Jason Rosoff: And I think that in my mind, the question I would be asking myself to help me discern like which of those options is better, is do you think that going to HR is going, it means that you will completely lose control over what happens next. Because if that is your belief, then I would recommend, I would strongly consider going to the person directly. Because that means going to HR is an option of last resort. 

[00:44:21] Kim Scott: So in general, I say it’s better to have a direct conversation and if that goes badly, then go to HR. That’s my generic recommendation. But that’s generic, then you’re in a specific situation, so.

[00:44:37] Jason Rosoff: It just makes me sad that that’s the generic advice. Is like that HR is so poorly tooled to deal with these types of issues that, like, you can’t, like, you, the person is sort of like has to go out on a limb and take that risk entirely on their own. If the purpose of HR, 

[00:44:52] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:44:52] Jason Rosoff: Is to help you figure out, is to help employees resolve issues that they have at work. Then shouldn’t HR’s role be to coach this person for, like, to be a support for them as they go into that conversation? 

[00:45:05] Kim Scott: Maybe, I don’t know. I mean, the other side of that is, is I feel like we, so often people use a, they try to delegate their relationships to HR. And that’s like, asking your assistant to go to the dentist for you. Like you got to go to the dentist your own damn self. ‘Cause they’re you’re, like, yes, maybe you need help. But I think as a general rule, people tend to think that HR can then fix the relationship. And I think if you have a, if you’re, if you have a relationship problem, only you can fix that with that other person. I mean, yes, you could get help and advice. But, uh, so, yes, go to HR for help and advice, but don’t over delegate to HR, is what I would say. 

[00:45:53] Jason Rosoff: Yeah, I guess my question is, like, why isn’t HR a good target for building solidarity in this case? And I think your answer would be, is because HR is, may be obligated to, like, do something on your behalf, which damages your relationship.

[00:46:07] Kim Scott: Yeah, I think that often when you go to HR, they have a whole set of obligations to take action that, and you wind up getting sucked into a process that turns up a lot of your time and the other person’s time. Whereas a quick conversation with that person might have eliminated the situation altogether.

[00:46:31] I mean, look. If you’re, if you need a marriage counselor go to a marriage counselor. But hopefully you talk to your spouse first, a bunch before you go to it. You know what I mean? That’s kind of my view about HR, is you go after you’ve tried to have a couple of direct conversations. As a general rule, obviously, if you’re getting bullied or sexually harassed, you may not feel like you can go straight to that person, so exceptions to every rule.

[00:47:01] Jason Rosoff: I don’t think that individuals knowing how to do this is a solution to the problem of addressing bullying and harassment at work. 

[00:47:12] Kim Scott: Fair enough, fair enough. 

[00:47:14] Jason Rosoff: So I feel like, I’m, I feel sad is what I feel. I feel sad that HR, and it’s not like the necessarily the individual’s fault. But I feel sad that companies don’t think of it as like an important enough function to have someone who can confidentially guide you to help, in helping resolve relationship issues. Because people barely, you know, a lot of the people who find themselves in this situation, like, the Reddit thread with the person who’s like just out of school. Like they don’t know how to resolve a relationship problem. 

[00:47:49] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.

[00:47:49] Jason Rosoff: They’re like, you know what I’m saying? Like they’re like,

[00:47:53] Kim Scott: Yeah, it’s hard. 

[00:47:53] Jason Rosoff: They’re just barely getting by like showing up to work on time and figuring out where everything goes. Like, yeah. 

[00:47:59] Kim Scott: Yeah. That’s why some organizations have an employee Ombudsperson who’s not in HR who you can go and talk to for advice. 

[00:48:07] Jason Rosoff: Yep. 

[00:48:07] Kim Scott: In fact, that’s why we’re building the candor coach. So you can go to the candor coach and ask advice. 

[00:48:13] Jason Rosoff: That would be great. 

[00:48:15] Kim Scott: Yes. Yes, it would be. Uh, so the theoretical advice is after you have done the first three things, which is to document, to build solidarity and to locate the exit nearest you. Then you have a direct conversation with the CEO’s son to say, you’re going to escalate cleanly. But that with acknowledgement that that advice may sound like, what world are you living in Kim, right? Uh, and so if that feels totally wrong, then you can go to HR I think. 

[00:48:51] Jason Rosoff: Yeah, I think that’s what we’re saying. Yeah, just to reinforce it, it’s like HR is the backstop. If that fails, 

[00:48:58] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:48:59] Jason Rosoff: In some way or another, then HR is your next stop. 

[00:49:03] Kim Scott: Is next, is a next stop. But not the last resort because, 

[00:49:06] Jason Rosoff: Yep. 

[00:49:06] Kim Scott: You can also hire a lawyer. Uh, and you may want to hire a lawyer before you have either a conversation with the CEO’s son or HR. Uh, so there’s not always one order of operations here. But I think that talking to a lawyer to understand, you know, what your choices are is, will often help you feel like you have some new ideas about how to handle the situation. So as a general rule, I think, uh, a lawyer is a good idea. 

[00:49:43] Amy Sandler: I just want to name before we wrap, just to Jason’s previous point about, you know, someone new in a role or not having the knowledge, just naming that there’s a lot we’re putting on the individual here as an upstander to correct for an unjust system, in terms of this, uh, this issue, right? Like we’re also saying, you as an upstander, it may be helpful for you to have a lawyer, um, for your own support. But this person is already having to do a lot of emotional labor, a lot of financial labor potentially. So I just want to just name that. 

[00:50:19] Kim Scott: Yes, that’s all true. I think that that is why so often the advice given is, oh, just ignore it. 

[00:50:29] Amy Sandler: Yeah. 

[00:50:29] Kim Scott: But I think if you ignore it, then the behavior escalates and gets worse. If you ignore it, at least when I have been in situations where I’ve ignored it, it had a physical and emotional, it took a physical and emotional toll on me to ignore it. Like you can’t really ignore it. I think it’s not realistic advice. 

[00:50:52] Amy Sandler: Right. I’m not saying to ignore it. I’m just saying like the cost is falling on the people, that it.

[00:50:59] Kim Scott: Yes.

[00:50:59] Amy Sandler: Like on the upstander and the person being harmed. 

[00:51:03] Jason Rosoff: I will say one tactical thing is if the company is big enough, they may have, uh, an E A P, Employee Assistance Program. And EAP’s often will connect you to lawyers. So they, like, they’ll have a way to connect you to a, uh, and often at low or no cost. Now that may not be, if you have the means to hire a great lawyer. 

[00:51:26] Kim Scott: Yes, I’ve never heard of a company who will pay for your lawyer to sue the company. 

[00:51:32] Jason Rosoff: That, they won’t pay for you to sue the company. So, like, basically, it’s like, very low level advice. The EAP is run by another, it’s not run by the company. So EAP is like a thing that the company pays for. And what the program does is it’s sort of like a hotline that can connect you to other resources. That’s the way to think about it. 

[00:51:53] Kim Scott: Okay. 

[00:51:53] Jason Rosoff: And in many cases they will, they do have like employment lawyer type resources and stuff like that. So it’s not actually the company’s not, doesn’t pay for the lawyer. You want you wind up paying for it, but it’s often at a reduced cost. 

[00:52:08] Kim Scott: I think I would find my own lawyer myself, but maybe that’s paranoid. 

[00:52:13] Jason Rosoff: I don’t think it’s paranoid. I’m just calling it out as like another pathway to explore. 

[00:52:17] Kim Scott: But I think remember that you don’t have to necessarily pay a lawyer to talk to a lawyer. Like, you can say this is happening. 

[00:52:25] Jason Rosoff: Many will talk to you for free. Especiall y employment lawyers, yep. 

[00:52:27] Kim Scott: Yes. Yes. Uh, because if you do wind up suing, they get paid if they win. What do you call that? There’s a word for it. 

[00:52:36] Brandi Neal: Contingency. 

[00:52:37] Kim Scott: Contingency. 

[00:52:37] Jason Rosoff: Contingency. 

[00:52:38] Kim Scott: Yes. That’s what it is. 

[00:52:39] Jason Rosoff: I wanted to say on spec, but that’s what builders do. 

[00:52:43] Amy Sandler: I will build this house. Uh, now it’s time for our Radical Candor checklist so you can start putting Radical Candor into practice.

[00:52:53] Tip number one. If you’re the one being bullied, document things as soon as they’re happening on your personal device, in a notebook, wherever you prefer, so you don’t feel gaslit. And if you’re the upstander, the conversation that we’ve just been having, your ability to document bad behavior can be an invaluable service to people harmed by bullying. Whether, because they want to report an episode, and having that third party evidence helps, or simply because it’s comforting to get a reality check that what happened to them was wrong. You as an upstander can take notes about what’s happening during an incident in a way that the person harmed can’t. And it can also help you not feel gaslit as well. 

[00:53:35] Kim Scott: Tip number two. Build solidarity and find others in the organization who share your concerns. A collective voice can be more powerful than a single one, and it can also provide a support system for those who are affected by bullying. If the situation doesn’t improve, assess your personal and professional boundaries. It’s important to work in an environment where you feel respected and valued. If the culture remains toxic, you might need to consider whether this is the right place for you in the long term, but you definitely need a friend in the short term to help you endure it. So, chat with others, build solidarity, and part of that is being an upstander, actually. 

[00:54:20] Jason Rosoff: Tip number three. If you feel comfortable, cleanly escalate the situation to having a three way conversation with the bullying son and the CEO or the bullying son’s boss. If you can, it’s best to have direct conversations instead of over delegating to HR. But if these steps fail, like if you try to do the clean escalation and it doesn’t work out, uh, HR can be your next stop. 

[00:54:44] Amy Sandler: For more tips, check out our YouTube channel where you can not only listen to this podcast, but also watch dozens of other Radical Candor videos. Show notes for this episode are at RadicalCandor.com/podcast. Praise in public, criticize in private. So if you like what you hear, please do rate and review us wherever you’re listening to your podcasts. And if you’ve got criticism, please email it to us, podcast@RadicalCandor.com. We read and appreciate everyone. Bye for now. 

[00:55:15] Kim Scott: Take care, everybody.

[00:55:17] Jason Rosoff: Bye bye. 

[00:55:17] Amy Sandler: The Radical Candor podcast is based on the book, Radical Candor: Be a Kick Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity by Kim Scott. Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by me, Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co founders, Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff, and is hosted by me, still Amy Sandler.

[00:55:38] Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn, Radical Candor, the company, and visit us at RadicalCandor.com.

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The Radical Candor Podcast is based on the book Radical Candor: Be A Kickass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity by Kim Scott.

Radical Candor podcast

Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer.

The Radical Candor Podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Order his book: The Reason For The Rhymes: Mastering the Seven Essential Skills of Innovation by Learning to Write Songs.

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