A Leader’s Guide to Managing Post-Election 2024 Tension at Work With Denise Hamilton 6 | 43

Episode at a Glance: Managing Post-Election 2024 Tension

Radical Candor Podcast Resources: Managing Post-Election 2024 Tension

• Navigating Political Discussions At Work | Radical Candor Podcast S6, Ep. 34
• Denise Hamilton / Indivisible: How to Forge Our Differences Into a Stronger Future
• Radical Respect — Indivisible
• WatchHerWork
• Denise Hamilton
• How Leaders Can Navigate Election 2024 Anxiety | Radical Candor
• DebunkBot
•  How Leaders Can Manage Post-Election 2024 Tension at Work

Radical Candor Podcast Tips: Managing Post-Election 2024 Tension 

1. Remember, all human beings deserve baseline respect, regardless of their views or background. Only by starting from this position of fundamental respect can we create the psychological safety needed for authentic dialogue and mutual comprehension.
   
2. In polarized times, leaders cannot take a passive approach and hope divisions will naturally heal. This is not a passive time. Leaders have to actively have a plan. This includes being thoughtful about timing and workload around potentially triggering events like elections; creating appropriate space for processing emotions and grief; facilitating intentional reconnection across team differences; and counteracting the forces of division that employees face outside work.
   
3. Move beyond surface engagement. Social media and modern communication often reduce complex issues to soundbites and oversimplified positions. Leaders need to encourage deeper dialogue that moves beyond binary positions to explore nuance; verifies shared facts and information sources; focuses on relationship-building rather than “winning” arguments; and creates space for longer, more thoughtful discussions.

The TLDR Radical Candor Podcast Transcript

[00:00:00] Kim Scott: Hello, everybody, welcome to the Radical Candor podcast. I’m Kim Scott. 

[00:00:07] Amy Sandler: I’m Amy Sandler and today we are so excited to welcome Denise Hamilton. Denise is an author, speaker and consultant with twenty-five years of executive experience with Fortune 500 organizations. Denise has been featured by the New York Times, Harvard Business Review, MSNBC’s Morning Joe, MIT Sloan Management, NBC Newsweek, Fox, CBS, so many other outlets. And most exciting, at least to me, wonderful book, uh, recently published called Indivisible: How to Forge Our Differences into a Stronger Future. 

[00:00:41] And Denise, you have described yourself as an irrationally optimistic believer in our ability to solve problems rather than just name them. Uh, your superpower is the ability to discuss challenging topics and come out the other side with positive direction and solutions. And I want to locate you all in the timing, we are recording this podcast a few weeks before the US presidential election on November 5th. And this podcast is due to be published soon after, if not the actual day after. So naming that uncertainty that we’re in right now, we are giving you a very warm welcome to you, Denise.

[00:01:25] We do need this superpower more than ever. We’re going to be talking about how to manage polarization at work. And I just wanted to reconnect you and Kim because you actually have chatted with Kim and Wesley Faulkner on the Radical Respect podcast previously, we’ll put that in the show notes if you haven’t heard it. Fantastic conversation. 

[00:01:45] But how did you meet Kim, Denise? What brought you into the Kim Scott orbit and the Kim Scott orbit into the Denise Hamilton orbit? How did it all start? 

[00:01:54] Denise Hamilton: Well, I believe that um genius It’s just, it glows, like it could be buried under a pile of rocks and you would find it. It would just appear, right? Like, I mean, I think that our conversation on, um, Radical Respect was so powerful.

[00:02:12] You know, when you write a book, you do a lot of pod, you do a lot of podcasts. You talk to a lot of people, you don’t talk to a lot of people, you know what I mean. Like real people who are thoughtful and deep and really, um, concerned and considered about what you’ve written, um, and so I, out of the slew of things that I did, I mean, Kim’s, um, our conversation just stood out, um, because, I could feel that she really cared, right?

[00:02:43] And I think it’s really funny that we’re talking about this subject. Um, because I think that’s kind of what’s missing a lot, is do we really care about other people and what their thoughts are? And what got them to their thoughts, which I think is really important as well. 

[00:03:02] Kim Scott: I totally agree. It was such a great conversation that we had, you and Wesley, uh, and me. And then we reconnected, we were recently both giving talks, uh, and that was fun to, we sat and had a nice dinner. 

[00:03:16] Denise Hamilton: It was so fun. It was like the cool kids table. It was so fun. We were like the wise sage grownups in the room of sixteen hundred young people, like age twenty-five to thirty-five, and us. It was fantastic. It was great. 

[00:03:31] Kim Scott: Yeah. It was really great. 

[00:03:32] Amy Sandler: Awesome. Well, I’m so excited to see if we can channel some of this wisdom and sage advice because I feel like we all need it, we all want it. Uh, Jason Rosoff, Kim and I did an earlier episode on this idea of talking about politics at work, Denise. And in that podcast, and we’ll put that one in the show notes as well.

[00:03:57] But I wanted to get your perspective on some of the data that we shared on that podcast. There was a 2024 survey from Resume Help. And I think the upshot is talking about politics at work is a topic that makes people pretty uncomfortable. Uh, and I want to layer in this idea of care personally that you have already spoken about.

[00:04:18] Um, so let me share a few stats and get your take on this. First of all, more than half of workers, fifty-one percent say they never or rarely discuss politics at work. fourty-five percent, so almost half, have regretted having political discussions at work. Twenty-five percent have left or wanted to leave their job because of their boss’s political beliefs. And fifty-one percent believe workplace political discussions hurt the work environment.

[00:04:46] It’s interesting you mentioned about young folks that you were in that event with and so things, you know, across generational lines might be a little bit different. But what is your take on the state of people’s appetite to talk about these things at work? And is it even a good idea? 

[00:05:01] Denise Hamilton: Oh, it’s so complicated. Um, it’s complicated because we have all of these different messages that are really deeply contradicting each other. Um, first of all, I have to give a disclaimer, like I have a foundational belief that, um, in a lot of ways we have defanged government. Right? And what’s the impact of that? It means if you break it, you buy it. 

[00:05:28] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:05:29] Denise Hamilton: So a lot of corporations have inherited problems that I don’t necessarily think they are appropriate in that venue in that environment. But because we have changed, we’ve so, um, unfortunately, so altered the efficacy of our legislative systems and our, that, that it’s almost impossible to find another venue to discuss some of these issues.

[00:05:56] So it’s weird, it’s like we venue shopped in a really inappropriate way. So here we are in this space, in this, you know, vessel that we’ve all got to operate in and interrelate in. And the truth is we’re coming to these conversations with totally different backstories. And almost totally different fact patterns, which is really, really the problem.

[00:06:25] We’re not even disagreeing about the same thing. I think it’s purple and you think it’s light blue and just yelling past each other. Then, um, we also have kind of entered this social media environment where everything is gamified. So like hostility and resentment and disrespect actually gets you more points than, you know, cooperation and compromise and reconnection.

[00:06:51] And so how do you stop that from creeping in to the workforce, right? Into the workplace. Then the next piece of it is, we’ve had years of telling people, bring your authentic self to work, bring your full self. Oh, wait, wait, wait, but not that part, right? Like, it’s really, it’s a complicated stew of all of these competing, um, narratives that we’re gonna have to spend a little time untangling. 

[00:07:19] Kim Scott: Yes.

[00:07:19] Denise Hamilton: It’s kind of a mess. 

[00:07:22] Kim Scott: And I think, I mean, I want to give you a specific example of, uh, and tell me what you think. Uh, get your, well, I already did it. But you can tell, you can give me some Radical Candor on whether I did the right thing or the wrong thing. So, uh, I recently published an op ed in the New York Times and, uh, and I did not hold back in what I thought of, who I’m voting for and why.

[00:07:49] And, you know, when I did that, I really thought about it. Because there was, gosh, this was a long time ago, this was probably like, I don’t know, in 2004. So long ago and far away, but I remember that I had mentioned in a staff meeting who I was voting for and why. I mean, just ’cause like it’s, it was important to me.

[00:08:15] And there was a guy on my team who was not voting the same way I was. And he really was unhappy, he was angry with me for saying who I was voting for and why. Because he felt like that was silencing him. And so, and I can understand that. I have more power than he did. And so I wanted to be sensitive to that.

[00:08:42] So I talked to people on the team before I did it. I said, look, I am not saying, I am not telling you who to vote for, but this election feels very consequential to me. And so I really want to make sure that I’m doing everything I can to share what I think and why. And, um, and I think I did the right thing, but what are your thoughts on a leader of an organization, a co founder sort of sharing those kinds of thoughts. 

[00:09:15] Denise Hamilton: So here’s the problem with your question. Your question is about a moment in time. So there’s no right or wrong answer to the question. 

[00:09:25] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:09:26] Denise Hamilton: The question is about the relationship and the culture you’ve built among your team. Does your team believe that they are free to disagree? Does their team believe that you have a desire to superimpose your will on theirs? I think when we talk about these subjects, we really tend to discuss them in isolation and they’re never in isolation, right? It’s all about organizational culture. I think about when I was in, um, a very, very, uh, super, uh, I’m not, how do I say this? Okay. I think about when I was in an environment that voted very differently than I do. 

[00:10:06] Kim Scott: Yes. 

[00:10:06] Denise Hamilton: Um, I literally knew that if I had said a word or stepped a toe out of line, it would have damaged my career. Like I, not a question, one hundred percent sure, right? So, to me, 

[00:10:22] Kim Scott: And that seems not okay. 

[00:10:24] Denise Hamilton: That is not okay. And I think that’s the thing. Like we talk about like talking about politics, but it’s really about what is the culture? What is the environment you’ve created in the organization that you lead, right? What are the boundaries that you’ve set? What are what are the rules and the mores and the norm across the board? And then this is, this should be a stress test of those.

[00:10:48] You should not be inventing those right now for the purposes of dealing with politics. If that’s where you are, you’re too late.

[00:10:55] Kim Scott: I think it is, I’m going to, I’m going to go out on a limb here and say, I think it is actually important to feel free to talk about politics at work. Because I think so many of us have so many emotions. Like a friend of mine who studies insomnia has evidence that a lot of people have what she calls electo insomnia, electosomnia. Like the election has people so stressed out, they’re not sleeping well. And, you know, uh, if something is happening that is upsetting to me, I need to process it with the people who I’m around. I don’t know. What do you think about that? 

[00:11:40] Denise Hamilton: So again, my answer to everything, it’s complicated. Um, so I think that, again, I’m gonna, I’m gonna always pan back because I think that really helps us in the conversation, right? We have a loneliness epidemic. 

[00:11:56] Kim Scott: Yes. 

[00:11:56] Denise Hamilton: Most people do not live close to their families geographically. 

[00:12:00] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:12:00] Denise Hamilton: Most people do not attend any kind of religious service regularly. Their friends are the people they work with. The people that they interact with are the people they work with. So when you say, this big, huge thing in my life, that is like so animating and so motivating for me that I cannot talk about that. It feels muzzling, it feels unrealistic, it feels, um, uh, reinforcing of kind of how much you commit to this job. And now it’s really not the family they keep telling us that it is. 

[00:12:35] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:12:35] Denise Hamilton: So, it’s important to be able to communicate around difficult conversations and topics successfully, no matter what the topic is. That’s the skill that we don’t have. 

[00:12:48] Kim Scott: Yes. 

[00:12:48] Denise Hamilton: This just shines a big spotlight on that. You know, and when I say that, like what I mean, and this example is going to blow your mind, get ready for this. 

[00:12:58] Kim Scott: I’m ready. 

[00:12:59] Denise Hamilton: Um, you know, I have a section in my book where I talk about this idea of respect and how we have put forth a mythology around understanding that leads to respect, right? And, you know, walk a mile in somebody else’s shoes and that kind of thing. And I actually think it’s the reverse. I think you respect someone and that helps you to better understand them. 

[00:13:28] Kim Scott: Yes.

[00:13:28] Denise Hamilton: I think respect is the baseline. And the example I use in the book is when I moved to Texas and, you know, the teacher is calling for college, and the teacher is calling a roll call. And she’s like, you know, uh, John, um, Smith, what do you go by? And the guy says, Jim Bob. And I was like, Jim Bob, where did that come from? She goes through everybody in the room, and there’s like out of forty something people in the room, twenty people go by a nickname or a middle name or something like that. And coming from the Northeast, that’s not a thing.

[00:14:00] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:14:00] Denise Hamilton: Your name is your name, and we’re definitely not going to call you your nickname in class. 

[00:14:05] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:14:05] Denise Hamilton: But I’m in Texas, when in Rome, right? Do the thing. And so I asked them afterwards, I said, like, you know, what does your mom call you? Oh, she calls me Jim Bob. Well, why didn’t she name you Jim Bob? The whole phenomenon completely fascinated me, right?

[00:14:20] And to this day, I have to tell you, I still don’t really understand it. But you know, if you tell me your name is Jim Bob, I’m going to call you Jim Bob, right? And so we have, I think this reverse is required. You have to give people a baseline of respect. And then work from that to try to understand their position.

[00:14:44] So are we trying to win and defeat somebody or are we really trying to understand, hey, how do you look at this differently than I look at this? If you don’t have the power to do that, then you don’t have the power to have these conversations at work. I mean, that’s really it. It’s a toolkit, it’s a skillset that you have to have that, um, that you are really able to listen, right? And the example that I always keep in the back of my head, this keeps me humble, is how would I respect a flat earther? 

[00:15:15] Kim Scott: Yes. 

[00:15:16] Denise Hamilton: Right? I mean, hard. Really, really, really, really hard. First, I have to be honest. When you tell me that you believe in the flat earth, that the earth is flat, what does that tell me about you? How does it change how I think about you? See you, feel about like, how does it change our interaction? How much I trust you? How does that change? If I can get a handle on that and then get curious, when did you start believing there’s a flat earth? How, what information sources are you, you see, like the conversation is totally different.

[00:15:50] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:15:50] Denise Hamilton: That’s really hard. And if you can’t do it in a way that’s really honestly respectful and curious, then you are proselytizing, you’re not having a conversation and that’s not appropriate at work. 

[00:16:03] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. And that, I think that is really important, like not to proselytize at work. Uh, not to, ’cause you, we’ve got to be, we’ve got to be respectful of people. By the way, somebody who is a mathematician, who I really respect, said that the flat earth math is right, actually. They’re like, he said, it’s very, so that’s like, that was interesting that, that blew my mind. I was like what? And so he said, I mean, I’m sure at some point, I assume at some point, it becomes wrong, but he said that the flat earth math is quite sophisticated and interesting. So there you go. 

[00:16:42] Amy Sandler: And I love that you brought that up, Denise, obviously with Kim’s newest book, Radical Respect, we’ve talked a lot about how having that kind of foundational respect is really a precursor to practice Radical Candor, that we can’t care about someone without that, that respect. And in fact, I pulled that out as a quote that I love. So I’m just going to read some of your words, if that’s okay. 

[00:17:02] You wrote, one mistake we have made in our quest for tolerance is centering our understanding of someone else’s experience as a precursor for offering them our respect. This is a costly mistake, all human beings are worthy of respect. Instead of thinking that the more you understand someone, the more worthy they are of respect, you should lead with respect. That is the only way to get to understanding. Um, and then you go on talking about some of the things that you were just chatting about, you know, that your familiarity with the concept isn’t required to respect the humanity of another person, that your job is to be actively on your learning journey, to listen, to be curious. And to courageously examine my beliefs, to see where opportunities for growth lie.

[00:17:45] And that really did leap out at me. Because I would love to see like, how can we encourage folks this, at least, you know, in the US the day after the presidential election around the world. What are some of the actual practical skills that you have put into place for yourself and with the orgs you work with, to actually like build the muscle of examining and expanding our capacity to hold different beliefs?

[00:18:10] Denise Hamilton: Well, um, I think the first thing is you didn’t die, you’re still here, you’re still standing. One of the challenges that we have is that, um, sometimes it’s difficult to see, um, societal change across an arc of time. Again, this like focusing on one moment as either the maker or the breaker of the entire American experiment is probably not the way to think about this. I think that the challenge is to see ourselves as owners of an ongoing asset, of a developing, growing, maturing, ever changing. And this is just an episode. This is a season in it. 

[00:19:00] Kim Scott: Yes. 

[00:19:00] Denise Hamilton: And I think staying engaged with the changes that you want to see, the policies that you want to enact. I love the passion. What I don’t like is the fatalism. 

[00:19:11] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:19:11] Denise Hamilton: Like it’s, the catastrophizing, right? The reality is that we are incredible people. We sent somebody to the Moon in a tin can using computers, not as sophisticated as the phones we have in our pockets right now. We are people that can do incredibly hard things.

[00:19:34] And right now might feel hard depending on how the election ended up. It might feel really hard for you. But this is not the first time it’s been hard and you are more than capable. You are more than equipped to keep the work going. Um, and I think that’s important. You mentioned in the intro, like I walk around the world with an inappropriate level of optimism. And that’s true. Like I do. I think that the only people that change the world are the ones that think they can. So if you get knocked down, if you’re out of the, you know, I hear people say, I’ll never vote again. I’m moving. I’m did it. And I want to say, oh, okay, owner, are you an owner? Or are you a renter, right?

[00:20:15] Like, come on, like, this is our thing and it’s going to have ebbs and flows and ups and downs. And I have to regulate my own kind of emotions around that. And, um, if you can do that, then you can live to fight another day, right? You can live to, um, for us to evolve in other ways. Like this is multifaceted experiment and we’re just, we’re like in phase three. It’s not even six or seven yet. 

[00:20:42] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s so wise. And I think no matter what happens in the election, some people on your team are going to be happy and other people on your team are going to be sad. And I think like holding space for people’s emotions, uh, is really, is really important.

[00:20:59] And caring about each other as human beings. ‘Cause I think that one of the things that I keep coming back to that leaves, that helps fuel my optimism is that I read the paper and I feel, I have a pit in my stomach. And I feel like not that positive about humanity, but everybody I interact with is actually fantastic and like how the gulf between my real human interactions, which are all wonderful. Uh, and what I read about is huge. Like, I don’t know how to explain it, but people are, people are pretty decent people. 

[00:21:39] Denise Hamilton: A hundred percent. And this is why I’m really encouraging all the leaders I work with to be intentional, right? This is not a passive time, right? 

[00:21:52] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:21:52] Denise Hamilton: The reality is we are, somebody stuck in IV in your arm and is force feeding you like negativity and hostility and doomsday scrolling. Like that, it’s just the truth. Like there are thousands of psychologists and psychiatrists sitting right now trying to figure out how to make you stay on that feed and watch the horrible videos of how terrible people are. 

[00:22:13] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:22:14] Denise Hamilton: Leaders have to counteract that. 

[00:22:16] Kim Scott: Yes. 

[00:22:16] Denise Hamilton: Leaders have to actively have a plan. What are you going to do to bring your teams back together? Are you going to honor people’s literal grief? 

[00:22:24] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:22:25] Denise Hamilton: People have actual grief around this. 

[00:22:28] Kim Scott: Yes. 

[00:22:28] Denise Hamilton: Are you going to give space, manage the workload for the week of the election? What do you have everybody doing? Maybe a all team meeting. It’s not a good idea. Let’s let some dust settle, right? Are you, um, thoughtful about how you are working across teams and facilitating reconnection.

[00:22:46] You’re going to have to be intentional and deliberate about it. The way we have been intentionally and deliberately separated, we’re going to have to do the work in the opposite direction. And I know leaders don’t want to hear that. They’re like one more thing we have to do. Yes. One more thing you have to do. 

[00:23:00] Kim Scott: That’s why you get paid the big bucks.

[00:23:02] Denise Hamilton: ‘Cause these, yeah, this is why you make the big bucks. 

[00:23:05] Kim Scott: But this is why you’re a leader. 

[00:23:09] Denise Hamilton: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it’s a critical skill and you know, I think that when we think about grief, right, um, in this context, I think it’s really important to just remember, again, you, you don’t have to understand. You might think it’s ridiculous. Like, how can this person be so upset? I have so many friends that are taking the day off. I’m working with schools, that are closing school, the day after the election in anticipation of this kind of angst. So, I guess I want to say, let’s raise the threat level to DEFCON two or three, and understand that you’re going to need a little bit more care then you might normally have. Don’t ignore it. Don’t just la, la, la, la, la, and hope that everybody’s going to get over it. You know, just like be intentional. 

[00:24:03] Kim Scott: Yeah. I think it’s really important. It’s interesting. So this guy from my business school class has been sending to all of the section, his thoughts on who should win, which are not my thoughts. And so I sent something, he snarked and I made the, I took the bait and I snarked back reply. I did all the things you’re not supposed to do. And then we got on an email thread and he was like, well, do you believe in the Constitution? 

[00:24:36] Yes. I believe in the Constitution. And, like, there were all these things that we both really cared about. I mean, I think we should do X, he thinks we should do Y. But it was useful to, like, take a step back and say, we both love our country, we both care, we both think the Constitution was, you know, it’s important to have checks and balances in a government. Uh, and we both think the economy has gotten out of whack and the rich are getting too rich. And so I don’t like, like, it was very helpful actually to just like, remember, and I thought of you, what is in, what are we, what, where, what’s the area of indivisibility? 

[00:25:18] Denise Hamilton: And brevity is the enemy. Brevity can be the enemy of that, right? Like, I don’t know that you’re supposed to like, wax philosophical about the deepest beliefs of your heart in like a hundred and forty characters.

[00:25:30] I think you need a few more, you need a few more characters, um, to accurately communicate. And I think we have reduced, there’s so many super important conversations that we’re having in ways that are too short and are really absent of relationship, right? I do think difficult conversations require a little bit of skin in the game. 

[00:25:53] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:25:53] Denise Hamilton: They require a little bit of connection. And I think when you’re, when you have an actual relationship, you, um, are more invested in preserving that. If you can set that forth as the goal, then, you know, it’s not so much about winning as much as understanding and hearing each other. 

[00:26:11] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:26:11] Denise Hamilton: So I’ve had, when you do the work I do, weird people talk to you about weird things. So I’ve had numerous people come up to me and say, I cursed out my uncle Joe at Thanksgiving. Or I never spoke to my grandma again. And I want to say, I’m so sorry. What about me makes you think that that’s what I want you to do? Like, I want you to stay in relationship. Going back to my flat earther example, right?

[00:26:37] If we decide we’re going to stop talking to the flat earthers, the only people they have left to talk to are other flat earthers. So that super imposes and reinforces the concepts in a circle, and you’re never going to penetrate or get any kind of connection, reconnection with that person. We have to stay in relationship. That being said, honey, you don’t have a relationship with the fifty-thousand people that follow you on social media, like, those are not relationships. 

[00:27:07] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:27:07] Denise Hamilton: Those aren’t, and so getting energy drained by people you don’t know, don’t care about, that are thirty percent, fifty percent of them are bots. Where, why are we doing that? Why are we doing that? Let’s get offline and into the real world, having real conversations with real people. 

[00:27:25] Kim Scott: Yes. 

[00:27:26] Denise Hamilton: Common ground. Remember when compromise was a good word. Like collaboration, like all these crazy outdated concepts. We bring them back when we like focus on the relationship and the seriousness and the value of that.

[00:27:50] Amy Sandler: You know, I was thinking as you answered some of the questions, what I’ve observed, which I love as an approach and I just want to name it for the audience and see how this lands for you in terms of a couple of tips and almost like a mindset an indivisible mindset if I can. The way that you’ve answered some of the questions so far is like, you said I’m going to pan out a little bit. And so just really trying to take a broader view. And not just looking at them whether it’s the moment in time. But even just this one conversation or this one point of disagreement.

[00:28:21] So taking a broader view. And also saying it’s complicated. And, you know, by definition, if something is more complicated, we’re not going to be able to figure it out in a hundred words. And by the way, the only hundred words I can probably focus on are the ones that are going, to your, the way you talked to the beginning, is going to be gamified.

[00:28:39] It’s going to be those areas where we are actually disagreeing. So I think even just that idea of can we pan out, can we understand that these things are complicated? And then, I’m really curious, we think about these almost like a roadmap or path for conversations that I might have with someone like Kim was just sharing with a business school classmate.

[00:29:00] Like how might you advise, whether it’s somebody in a school or in a small business, locating them in that moment, knowing that we might see something differently. We do a lot of role plays on this podcast. And so I’m curious, like, what are some of the tips that you might have of how to approach that conversation? Obviously you want to be listening and curious, but are there certain, are there phrases or ways into that conversation that you found helpful? 

[00:29:25] Denise Hamilton: Yeah, I think the first thing is before the conversation. Why am I saying this? You know, I have a four question rubric. Um, does it have to be said? Does it have to be said by me? Does it have to be said right now? Does it have to be said this way? And I can tell you, I get pulled into a lot of conflicts and organizations. And if people had gone through those four steps before they spoke, I think ninety percent of them wouldn’t have happened, right? There’s, um, a deep responsibility that I think we need to take back about the impact of our words and the intent of our heart when we go into these conversations. What are you trying to do? Are you trying to, um, understand the other person, convert the other person, um, shame the other person, embarrass the other person, or defeat the other, like, what are you actually trying to do? Why do you think this is the time for you to have that conversation, right?

[00:30:28] Just a simple thing of, do I say it in front of everyone or do I pull them to the side, right? And there’s, right, sometimes it’s time to do either one, either or, like, it’s not a hundred percent. It’s that you’ve gone through some process of interrogating yourself. We’re very clear that the other person is difficult, right?

[00:30:48] But what we need to do is understand that we’re difficult too. We are as entrenched and committed to our belief structure as they are, right? And so with that in mind, what is your goal? What are you trying to do here? I think that people try to win arguments instead of solidify and build out relationship. And so as they approach a difficult conversation, if I don’t care what happens to this relationship, the chances of this conversation going any way that’s productive are pretty low. 

[00:31:23] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:31:24] Denise Hamilton: So I think the first thing you have to do is check in with yourself, right? And I, this is going to shock you. I think probably seventy percent of the comments wouldn’t be made. I would go that far. I think it’s that high of a number. Because I think, you know, uh, Kim knows this about me. I’ve always struggled with the term authentic because I don’t think everybody gets to be authentic and I authentically want to be in my pajamas. 

[00:31:51] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:31:52] Denise Hamilton: Right? I don’t know what authentic means, right? So my word is really effective, right? What is the most effective way that I could interact with this person? Does this person have the power to change or alter what I’m even presenting to them, right? Like, are they going to be at the negotiation, negotiating table at The Hague, are they in charge of HR policy? Are they like, sometimes we’re like, it’s we have made argument and debate as entertainment, and that is an addiction that we have to break. So why are you saying anything? Now, sometimes there are things that need to be said, but are you saying it in such a way that the other person can hear you? Are you asking questions or are you making statements?

[00:32:42] Are you confirming? And this is a big one in today’s time. Do you even have the same information? I am shocked. I said earlier that brevity is not your friend. You know what else isn’t your friend? Curation. Curation is, I don’t think you’re supposed to have curated news. 

[00:33:03] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:33:03] Denise Hamilton: I think so. I don’t think that’s how that’s supposed to be. So we have people that are having conversations. They literally do not know the whole story, and they’re arguing different parts of the story. I remember I was working with a, um, a CEO that was getting ready to do a town hall, twelve thousand employees, and it was following the murder of George Floyd. And we were doing a mock, just like a rehearsal.

[00:33:31] And the question that was put to him was, what is the most personally impactful part of this whole incident of George Floyd being murdered? And he said, the fact that no one tried to help. Everybody just pulled out their phones and filmed. And I stopped the session. I cleared the room and I said, where did you get that from? And I had to go and pull all the backs, the, um, the, uh, the bystander footage, I had to go and pull all the bystander footage. And I had to, um, show him all the people that were screaming and begging. 

[00:34:07] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:34:08] Denise Hamilton: He was absolutely mortified. But what I always take as very significant from this story is he was one hundred percent sure about how the events had gone. 

[00:34:21] Kim Scott: Yes.

[00:34:21] Denise Hamilton: And when, once I showed him the rest of it, he would literally, it was like his brain broke for a second. 

[00:34:28] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:34:28] Denise Hamilton: Because he only had a piece of the information and I challenged him. I said, if you were opening a branch in China or in London, you would do research, you would make sure you were getting your information from multiple sources, you would have all kinds of, why aren’t we doing that here?

[00:34:47] And that is, that’s one of the most challenging, difficult pieces of this right now. Because the people that you disagree with vehemently are interacting with a piece of the story. You are interacting with a totally different piece of the story and you hate each other because you don’t know the story. So one of the things that I really try to do is figure out what happened, not my recollection, not my, what happened, um, what do you know? What do I know? And how do we blend the facts together so we can fight terribly to get to the truth? 

[00:35:32] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah. And that is what makes us indivisible. Is if we can share what we both know respectfully, we’re gonna get closer to the truth. 

[00:35:43] Amy Sandler: Denise, I’m so curious as you share that really powerful story, I mean, there’s so many great um, and illuminating stories in your book. You talked at the top about how a lot of things that government maybe used to do, have sort of been outsourced to the business world. And as you’re talking, it makes me wonder, like, are leaders in some way now responsible for misinformation in a way. To really rectify, like, know this is, we want to make sure as a leader, it is my responsibility to be aware of looking at multiple viewpoints. Like, I’m curious, just this whole issue of misinformation that we’re seeing, which, you know, I suspect will only get worse. Like, what is a leader’s role in all of that? 

[00:36:29] Denise Hamilton: I mean, it’s, I think that’s the most challenging piece of all of this. 

[00:36:33] Amy Sandler: Yeah. 

[00:36:33] Denise Hamilton: I’m really struck by the response to Hurricane Helene. I was really shaken by it because, you know, some of this is just sport, right? Argument and debate as entertainment, right? Argutainment, as I’ve heard it called, I think it’s hilarious. Um, but like the problem with it is, we have lost our ability to lock arms and face a common goal. 

[00:37:02] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:37:03] Denise Hamilton: That’s serious. We do not have the ability to say, hey, there’s a storm coming. How can we help each other? What do we need to do? How do we deploy the resources? Like we’re to a point where, you know, and it’s so strange coming out of an experience like COVID to not have fortified that skill. But instead to have that skill kind of decompose right before our eyes, right? 

[00:37:28] Um, and so as leaders, I think it’s really important to have a really deep understanding of mis and disinformation. Um, in a way that I don’t see how your business cannot be impacted or affected by the fact that we have so much, um, misunderstanding. And that the capacity of that misunderstanding to create divisions in your organization right? Now, what do you do about it? You know, do you put out a newsletter that this is what really happens? You make a statement on every single issue. I think it gets muddy there in terms of like, how much should you be talking?

[00:38:10] How much should you be? I think the bigger challenge is like, no one’s talking, like no one is trusted. There is no trusted institution in our society right now. What are we going to do about that? How do we reverse that? And, um, as much as people really, um, hate the passion and the division and the, you know, the kind of energy on both sides, I kind of secretly love it. Because I hope that people care after the election and they’re leaning in and they’re like, wait a minute, who’s on my school board. 

[00:38:47] Wait a minute, you know, these ninbies are stopping people from building low income housing or mixed income housing. Wait a minute. Are we just building and building and we don’t care about like the drainage and are we contributing to flood patterns in different cities? Like I want people to care about these things. And there’s kind of a, uh, um, a malaise and an apathy that we really can’t afford as a society that’s really facing so many big challenges. I need us to be ready for AI. I don’t think we’re ready ladies. 

[00:39:21] Kim Scott: I agree.

[00:39:23] Amy Sandler: I just, as you’re talking, I’m like, oh my gosh. Like how can I, it was so interesting because it’s like there’s that panning out right? And at the same time really, really being in it, and that passion. And how can we harness that, that collective passion. It’s kind of like what Kim said that, it might seem like when you look at the news that we don’t care, but we actually do care so much. And you talk about this idea of being an owner versus a renter in Indivisible. And it feels like, can you just explain that idea and how maybe that can give us some of that irrational optimism that I think we all want to feel?

[00:40:02] Denise Hamilton: Yeah. I think about like our generation, like it’s our responsibility. It’s our generation’s turn, right? To write the next chapter of this great story. I think of America as a great big house that we’ve inherited, right? And it’s our generation’s turn to remodel the kitchen and update the bathroom, right? Because we care about it. We’re invested in it as a long term asset, right? We understand that we inherit both the assets and the liabilities. And we understand that, you know, we have to take care of the stuff nobody sees like the electrical panel and the foundation crack, right? But renters use peel and stick tile, right? Their, their, it’s about temporary extraction of the value of that resource, right? And we are overrun with extractors. It used to be noble to plant trees that you would never sit under. Now people pull up trees that other people planted. 

[00:41:07] Kim Scott: Yes. 

[00:41:07] Denise Hamilton: What are we doing right now? And it’s like shameless extraction upon extraction upon extraction. And I just, I think we need a shift back to, you know, hey, these schools in my neighborhood, they’re not great schools. Um, I’m going to move and put my school, my child in an independent school. Okay. But can you still maybe grab forty of your amazing, wonderful friends and support that local failing school instead of just solving your problem?

[00:41:37] Do you have any interest in solving the broader problems? The broader issues? Like, I think that’s what we need to do. In the book I call it the five foot rule. Like, what are you doing in the five feet around you? And you should be able to list a couple of things in the five feet or not the geopolitical, not the national, what’s happening down the street from your house. Do you know?

[00:42:01] I was sitting with a group of friends, uh, and I asked them, like everybody, everybody, you know, richy rich group of women and they all had housekeepers. And I said, you know, do you know if your housekeeper has children? And, the table froze, nobody knew. Let alone how old they were or how many they had or whatever. And I was like, how long has she been in your house for? Seven years, five years. I was like, what? That’s what I mean. Like, you know everything that’s happening on the news and you don’t know what’s happening literally under the roof of your very own house. 

[00:42:40] So it’s like, how do you take this passion, and right now, it’s kind of, there’s like a little bit of a masturbatory energy of it. It’s just kind of like out in the world and doing nothing. But if you can reroute that to actually create change in your everyday life with intentionality? That would be incredible. And so everybody that is fired up and emotional about the election, do you have a plan of what you’re going to do now that the election’s over? What are you going to do with all that passion? Does it just dissipate down the drain? Or are we going to do something? 

[00:43:18] Kim Scott: Make things better. I love it. That, I can’t think of a better way to send people off with. Like, what are we going to do to make the area right around us just a little better. I love that. It is always so inspiring to talk to you, Denise. Thank you. 

[00:43:36] Denise Hamilton: I just adore you. I think you’re a genius. And Amy, now that I know you too, you’re a genius adjacent. 

[00:43:42] Amy Sandler: Genius adjacent. I’ll take it. If I could be five feet to genius, that’s gonna be, um, but that’s where we cultivate it. Denise, uh, how can people find you? 

[00:43:53] Denise Hamilton: Uh, yeah, I can there’s a woman that’s another writer. Her name is Denise Hamilton and she’s got DeniseHamilton.com.

[00:43:59] Amy Sandler: DeniseHamilton.com 

[00:44:01] Denise Hamilton: I’m at DeniseHamilton.co 

[00:44:04] Amy Sandler: DeniseHamilton.co. 

[00:44:05] Denise Hamilton: Dot co. Yes. 

[00:44:06] Amy Sandler: Okay, and your book is Indivisible. And Denise before we go, because you have such an inspiring energy. Can you paint a picture for me of the world that you’re imagining, you might not be here, but since you’re someone who’s planting those seeds, um, what’s the future that you’d like to co create?

[00:44:30] Denise Hamilton: The future I’d like to co create is one that relies on actual relationship. I think as technology changes us, I think we have to have a stronger hand to make sure it doesn’t change our humanity and doesn’t, um, ever cause us to give up the most valuable, incredible, beautiful parts of ourselves. Um, my future has people talking to each other, not necessarily through devices, but actually going outside. Eye contact, hugs. Remember hugs? 

[00:45:10] I just want us to remember that we have so much more in common than we disagree on. And to be careful that our opinions of other people are really formed by our interaction with them, not by the labels that they wear or what we’ve been told they’re like. Um, so yeah. Basically now without the news and social media 

[00:45:37] Amy Sandler: It’s a beautiful vision, I would love to be in person and get those hugs and eye contact. And as you were saying about interaction, I heard a sense of both an inner action that we need to do, so that when we are interacting, we can do so from a place of caring and connectivity and relationship. So thank you for sharing your wisdom. 

[00:45:58] Denise Hamilton: Thank you so much for having me. 

[00:46:00] Kim Scott: Thank you so much. Love, every conversation with you is a pleasure. 

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