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Radical Candor Podcast Episode: Holiday Communication With Your Family
Many of you are likely spending time with your families this holiday season. And while you love your family, let’s be frank, family togetherness during the holidays can be rife with stress. So much so that it’s become a trope that’s spawned dozens of holiday movies.
And the spiritual leader Ram Dass once said, “If you think you’re enlightened, spend a week with your family.”
That’s why we’re dedicating this podcast to practicing the principles of Radical Candor with your family members this holiday season so you can avoid defaulting to Obnoxious Aggression, Manipulative Insincerity or Ruinous Empathy.
To practice Radical Candor effectively in such a setting, it might be helpful to start small, set clear intentions and boundaries, and be mindful of the timing and context of conversations. It’s also important to approach conversations with empathy, understanding, and a willingness to listen, not just to speak.
Radical Candor Podcast Resources: Holiday Communication With Your Family
- Applying Radical Candor To Dysfunctional Family Dynamics
- 7 Ways Radical Candor Transforms Relationships, According To ChatGPT
- A Happy Marriage Of Growth And Stability | Radical Candor
- Radical Candor – Speaking Directly and Caring Personally – The Veterinary Idealist
- The Overton Window – Mackinac Center
- How to Use Radical Candor to Communicate Clearly With Your Family During the Holidays
Radical Candor Podcast TLDR Transcript
Radical Candor Ep50 | Home for the Holidays
[00:00:00] Amy Sandler: Hey everyone, it’s Amy, and we understand that being with family during the holidays can sometimes be challenging due to our emotional history. Maybe we’ve got some unresolved conflicts, some new conflicts, and maybe there’s some cultural or generational differences in how we communicate with each other. Sometimes we end up reverting back to our worst selves when we’re together for the holidays, even though we really don’t want to. So today is December 25th, 2024. If you are in need of a pep talk and if you’re celebrating Christmas, Merry Christmas. But for all of us, this episode, which we recorded last holiday season, can help you use the Radical Candor framework to navigate difficult family dynamics. Enjoy.
[00:00:50] Kim Scott: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Radical Candor Podcast. I’m Kim Scott.
[00:00:55] Jason Rosoff: I’m Jason Rosoff.
[00:00:56] Amy Sandler: And I’m Amy Sandler. And many of you are likely spending time with your families this holiday season, loved ones, family, friends. Today we’re focusing more about family time. And well, we know that you love your family. Let’s be frank, dare I say candid, family togetherness during the holidays can be rife with stress.
[00:01:21] Kim Scott: Some have described it as death by a thousand paper cuts.
[00:01:25] Amy Sandler: That was Kim Scott, in case you didn’t know. So much so, it’s actually become a trope, spawning dozens of holiday movies. Of course, my favorite quote about this comes from the spiritual leader, Ram Dass, who once said, quote, if you think you’re enlightened, spend a week with your family.
[00:01:43] And so that’s why we’re dedicating this podcast to practicing the principles of Radical Candor with your family. This is really, we talk about Radical Candor 2.0, Radical Candor 3 point. This is PhD level Radical Candor. Our goal is to help you, if not practice Radical Candor, maybe move away from defaulting to whatever your fancy might be in the holiday season, whether it’s obnoxious aggression, manipulative insincerity or ruinous empathy or all of the above. And I thought we could start this conversation by talking about why this is hard? And so I asked our advisor, uh, ChatGPT, uh, and I,
[00:02:28] Kim Scott: Did you ask the Radical Candor LLM, or just generic ChatGPT?
[00:02:33] Amy Sandler: I did not actually ask the bot. I just the straight up just generic ChatGPT. Um, we could put that in the show notes. We have our very own version of, actually Jason I’m, am I misstating? Is there like a, for the public chat bot?
[00:02:48] Jason Rosoff: Not quite but we can put the responses from the radically candid bot.
[00:02:53] Amy Sandler: Okay, we can add that in. So this was just good old fashioned, um, happy anniversary. I do believe at least as we’re recording, at ChatGPT. The question was, or the query was practicing Radical Candor with family over the holidays. Um, why is this hard? And there were several reasons that were identified. I’m just going to name sort of the big ticket items here and get your take on it, Kim, Jason. So one of them was emotional history and dynamics, that families often have complex emotional histories and dynamics. I know not on this group, but I’m just curious if that resonates, you know, emotional baggage, for example.
[00:03:30] Kim Scott: I like to think of it as in tech companies, we talk about technical debt. And I think with a lot of family members, we sometimes have feedback debt. There’s a lot of things that have gone unsaid for many, many years, and it can be really hard to clean that up.
[00:03:49] Amy Sandler: Such a good point. And I think these are, actually the other ones really relate to exactly what you’ve said. So not just these past conflicts, unresolved issues, fear of conflict or hurt feelings. Right? You know, where it’s a time
[00:04:01] Jason Rosoff: The recipe for ruinous empathy.
[00:04:02] Amy Sandler: Yeah. It is. Mix two parts fear of conflict with three parts hurt feelings, desire to maintain peace and avoid confrontation. Um, the third one that was referenced, cultural and generational differences. So in many families, generational cultural differences in communication styles and values. And older family members might not be accustomed to or comfortable with the directness that Radical Candor requires. I’m just quoting ChatGPT. I wonder if that distinction holds water.
[00:04:36] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. Well, when I saw this in there, I was appreciative of it because my family doesn’t have these like big significant generational or cultural differences. So it didn’t even, like a lot of the other things on the list occurred to me, but this one didn’t.
[00:04:50] And I think about, um, even though my family is relatively new to the United States, I’m a second generation immigrant. So like, there was a lot of, uh, homogenization that happened in like the cultural identity of my family. And I, it just got me thinking of like, it’s hard enough to really, you know, to relate to some of my family members, even though we have like so many shared cultural experiences. And like, imagine if you’re, you know, a teenager now with grandparents who like grew up in cold war, like, like era, Eastern Europe or something. You know what I’m saying? Like the frames of reference are so drastically different.
[00:05:32] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:05:32] Jason Rosoff: It’s hard to even. Anyway, I just, I appreciated that it mentioned this one.
[00:05:36] Kim Scott: And I think also what happens in families as, especially as over time, is people marry people from other cultures. And, uh, and sometimes that can create a lot of opportunity for conflict. It can also be wonderful, by the way.
[00:05:55] Jason Rosoff: Yes.
[00:05:55] Kim Scott: And, and, uh, in fact, I was just over the weekend at, uh, at my husband’s nibblings B’Nai Mitzvah. And, um, my husband grew up Episcopalian, and his brother married a woman who’s Jewish, and it was lovely. It was an absolutely wonderful, wonderful event. So, so it can, um, it can, it can be enriching as well as opportunity for conflict. And then the generational differences. Wow. Um, I was at a family gathering where I saw, uh, an older woman who disagreed vehemently with the political views of her grandchildren, and she referred to them as liberal fascists and stormed away from the table. Um, not what you expect granny to say at the, at a family gathering, you know? So there’s lots of, um, opportunities for, um, for cultural and generational differences to create unexpectedly difficult conflict.
[00:06:58] Amy Sandler: Yeah. And on kind of both sides of it, did you use the word nibblings or did I mishear you?
[00:07:04] Kim Scott: Nibbling is instead of niece or nephew for, it’s the gender neutral term for, uh, for nieces and nephews.
[00:07:12] Amy Sandler: Thank you for clarifying. I don’t know if I’ve heard that and that makes a lot of sense. So actually that gets us to our next one, which is role expectations. So family roles, parent child, sibling dynamics, there’s often expectations about behavior and communications. In fact, I am the youngest, and on a recent workshop, a train, the trainer session, I can’t recall how it sparked, but we got into a bit of a conversation of where people were in the birth order.
[00:07:44] And this was a group where primarily there were mostly oldest, and it led us actually to a rich conversation about diversity and birth order, and even some different expectations around that. I’m curious, Kim, as I’m saying that, does anything pop up for you around, uh, expectations, whether sibling dynamics or birth order in general?
[00:08:10] Kim Scott: I mean, I would say for me, I have a, when I, sometimes when I go home to Memphis, I have a reversion to my worst self. I become fourteen years old again, and, thirteen years old again. Um, and I’m sort of obnoxious and rebellious. Uh, so I don’t know if that is my expected role. Um, or if there’s some other psychological, once again, I need to speak with my therapist about why this might happen.
[00:08:39] Amy Sandler: You should really put them on like, on like straight, like dial.
[00:08:42] Kim Scott: Yeah. Speed dial for the podcast. But I would say that sometimes I am at my worst. Uh, I am, I don’t bring, I don’t always bring my, I guess that’s, I guess we get in the habit of that in childhood. Like you go to school and you’re trying to be on your best behavior and then you can let your guard down when you come home and be at your worst behavior ’cause it’s safe. I guess that’s why, I don’t know. But I think, I don’t know, I don’t know if other people are at their worst, behave their worst.
[00:09:13] Amy Sandler: Oh, we’re all, we’re all perfect. Kim, it’s just you.
[00:09:15] Kim Scott: It’s just me.
[00:09:16] Amy Sandler: Yeah. Uh huh.
[00:09:18] Jason Rosoff: I told, I told, uh, Kim, Kim recently that, uh, Jillian made an observation. I don’t know this is me being at my worst, but I definitely be, like, I have a set of behaviors that are specific for me with my family, which is, I have this sort of, um, it’s not that I’m disengaged precisely, but she, she describes it as like, when you’re around your family, you can tell, like she can tell that I’ve like turned the volume down on the ambient conversations that are happening around me. And so it’s, she’s like, I know you’re listening, but you’re not like,
[00:09:53] Amy Sandler: Jason, was there a story about, about, uh, being in a car and getting directions as an example.
[00:09:59] Kim Scott: We were talking about this on the podcast and I’m, I’m glad you brought it up again, though, Jason, because when you said that, I was like, how do, how can I learn to turn the noise down? Because I tend to turn the volume up. And I think, I think everybody would be better off if I could turn it down.
[00:10:19] Jason Rosoff: It’s very, it’s really, it’s really vexing. I, what I think a couple of years ago, maybe a decade ago now, I think I realized that one of the bad, the worst version of myself, if I go back to like my early late teens and early twenties. Because I was like an intellectual snob and I, I was always looking for, I loved get, like getting into like arguments about things. I just loved like debating things and getting into arguments about things. And I, I wanted, you know, I think partially because I just wanted to prove how smart I was. Um, and I like grew out of that professionally, but I struggled to leave it behind in my family, like it’s, it stuck with me much longer in my family dynamic than it’s, and what I realized was like, I, my family has a habit, like, they like to push buttons. Like, it’s a thing that they do. They like to like, they like to leave bait, like conversational argumentative bait in the discussion. Um, and so it’ll be like a totally normal conversation and then mom will throw in something about, you know, fetal heartbeats or something, you know what I’m saying? Like there’ll be, there’ll be like an offhand comment.
[00:11:36] Amy Sandler: Is this usually politically oriented or, or other forms of bait?
[00:11:41] Jason Rosoff: I, she doesn’t think of it that way, but it’s like, it, it feels like it’s intentionally designed to like create, create a disagreement. And what I realized is like, I was always taking it. Like I had this habit, like the worst version of myself as I was always taking the bait. I was always like latching on to each thing. And what, what I learned was that my family that, it’s not just my mom. I was giving an example of my mom, but like, my brother does this. Um, my dad does this to some degree or another, like, yeah. It’s clearly like a familial trait, like a culture of, a hyperlocal cultural tradition.
[00:12:18] Um, and I realized like it made everything really tense. Like it always because it like my, my family enjoys a, uh, an argument or a debate. And I realized that I was often the one who is escalating it. Meaning, like, if I let the comments slide, there wasn’t a lot of juice left in the, you know what I’m saying? It wasn’t, but if I picked it up, I think partially because I’m the oldest, like, my, maybe, like, family relationship stuff, if I picked it up, then, like, everybody would get involved to some degree or another. And I actually think I learned some of this from Nora, because, uh, my sister, because she is always so sort of level headed. And I noticed that like, even though we were having these sort of raucous arguments, Nora was like having a pretty good time and I was like, what is Nora’s secret? So I started to observe. And what I realized was that
[00:13:05] Amy Sandler: The question we all ask.
[00:13:06] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. I was like, she had this habit, um, of she engaged in the conversation, but she didn’t like take, she didn’t take the bait. And that’s sort of what I started to do. And as I, as I stopped being so triggered, for lack of a better word, by those bait things, what I realized is that a conversation, even as it ranged through topics, and even if those topics were sort of inflammatory, the whole of it was like a family knowing, just like being in community with each other, like knowing each other. And if you listened for thirty seconds instead of three seconds, it was often the case that, it, there was like an expression of care or love or something else that came along with it.
[00:13:48] And what I started to realize is like, I needed to widen the window of like data that I was gathering before I made a judgment about like, what the intent of that particular comment or something was. And I think sometimes that seems like, like Jillian describes it as sort of turning the volume down. But I, I experience it as giving people an opportunity to show me what they really mean. Um, because usually they don’t mean exactly what they said. So my example of this was we were in the car. Uh, we were driving from, uh, my family, uh, my, my parents house, which is just north of Dallas down into, uh, well, like right, right near Dallas. So it’s like a forty, forty-five minute drive. And from the moment we walked into the car to the moment we got out of the car on the other end, I was being offered instructions on the best ways to drive in and around Dallas.
[00:14:44] Amy Sandler: To be clear, not from Waze or Google Maps.
[00:14:46] Jason Rosoff: Correct. My parents were offering instructions. You know, my dad, um, he, he was telling, you know, his way of just telling me he’s feeling a little nervous is he’s like, this merge lane is very short. So just be, be really be aware that the merge lane is very short. And my mom is less subtle. She was like white knuckled gripping onto the back of my seat saying, I prefer a lot of distance between the cars when, when you’re driving. Jillian was like frustrated on my behalf, she’s like, it must be like, it’s hard because she doesn’t like it when I critique her driving. But what I heard was like my, if I go beyond the single comment and I think about, you know, the thirty seconds or a minute, it’s really my parents just trying to say like, hey, we’d like, we want to be safe, we want everybody to arrive there safely, you know, and we love you and we trust you. But we’re nervous. Like that’s what the, that’s what they meant, but it’s not what they said.
[00:15:46] Kim Scott: And how did you learn to like, I have two questions. Well, I have a million questions, but I’m going to focus on two of them, Jason. One is, how did you learn to turn down the volume in this way? And second of all, when you were talking about it at first, you sounded like it was a good thing and then you sounded like it was a bad thing and now I’m back to thinking it’s a good thing, this turning the volume down. So how do you feel about turning the volume down?
[00:16:14] Jason Rosoff: I feel like it’s an adaptive trait. I think it’s like, sometimes it’s bad because like, uh, maybe there are some things that are bad enough they should be addressed. But I’m sort of like, if I expand the Overton window far enough, that, that was the window that I was talking about, is like, if I expand the Overton window far enough, like there’s, this becomes understandable or acceptable. And we can put a link in the show notes for folks who want to know more about the Overton window.
[00:16:41] But basically it describes like, collectively what people think is okay. And over time typically the Overton window expands, right. Like because as we learn more, we’re like there’s more that we can accept. But what I realize is like when my window is very narrow it made me over reactive. But occasionally I think I do expand the window too much and there are some things that I probably should address, but I’m like, hey, look, in the fullness of time I really don’t think it’s that big of a deal to address that particular thing. And Jillian and I might disagree about that from time to time, but it can backfire.
[00:17:12] Kim Scott: So Jillian was kind of wishing you would tell them to stop backseat driving. Is that correct? And wondering why you weren’t doing it. And meanwhile, you’re thinking this is how I adapt.
[00:17:23] Jason Rosoff: Yes. Well, I think more she was like, if it was me, I would be very annoyed.
[00:17:28] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:17:29] Jason Rosoff: Um, that, that’s what I think she was thinking. So in this case, I think she was like, oh, that was like, it was good that you didn’t react to that. And in other cases, she was like, maybe you should have reacted to that.
[00:17:40] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s so hard to know. Like I, my version of your story, uh, where I did get it right, I think, or at least didn’t react like my worst. Um, so I was home, I had been working in Russia, so like I had, I was a full fledged adult and I was home for the, for the summer, right before I was going to business school. And I was gonna, I had to take a, um, uh, statistics class at Memphis State University because, or University of Memphis, it’s now called, because I had not taken any math in, um, in college.
[00:18:18] And I was going to ride my bike to, from, from my parents house where I was staying, to the university, which was, a mile and a half away. It was close. And I got up in the morning and I was eating breakfast and all of a sudden my father comes charging down the stairs. I mean, running full speed, like, like the house is on fire. I said, what is wrong? And he said, don’t forget to look both ways before you cross the street. See, now we can see it’s cute, but my first, my initial instinct, I remember at the time, was god damn it, I’ve been like all over the world, I am an independent person, like when will I stop being a child? And then I was able to say, oh, it’s sweet. Like this is, this is, he’s not trying to irritate me. It’s just because he, he cares and I’m back under his roof and he feels responsible again.
[00:19:13] Um, and, and so I think that’s an example of, of like, as you were talking, Jason, what was coming up for me is Martin Buber’s book, I Thou. And the, the idea is that when you have a relationship with someone, you want, you kind of want to open the window. What was it called? The over, the Overton window? You want to open the window up so that even though they’re, you know, they’re, they’re, if you think about, a relationship with a tree instead of a person. And let’s imagine there’s this big tree and, and you want to, you want to see the whole tree rather than noticing just the one branch on the tree that maybe is dead or needs pruning or, you know, classify there’s all kinds of different ways that. But, but at some point you want to sort of take a step back and like, allow yourself to experience the whole tree and all, it’s all the miracles of the whole tree. And all the things you can see and all the things you cannot see. Uh, and, and I think that is a really helpful way to think about family.
[00:20:20] Jason Rosoff: Yeah, one of the habits that my mom is in is, she like, she gives advice and I think maybe it’s being a teacher. I don’t, I don’t know, but she, she likes to give advice and for a long time, I found it very frustrating. Other people find it very frustrating. She received the criticism many times, like, you know, like we don’t want your advice. Um, uh, like don’t, don’t give it to us, uh, on various things. And she’ll, she’ll tell you like, uh, if you were to get into a conversation with her about it, but that, that she like, can’t, she really can’t help herself. She’s tried. It’s just not something that she can easily change about herself. And she does it because she cares.
[00:20:56] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:20:57] Jason Rosoff: I have learned those conversations, even though sometimes I like, disagree with what she’s saying. Like I always appreciate them now because I know this is like my mom taking the time to show me how much she cares about me by thinking about my problems. Now I have gotten better about being able to accept the like show of love without feeling obligated to follow the advice. Like I think that’s the hard part. If you have a dynamic with, especially with a parent where it’s like, not only am I giving you this advice, but if you don’t follow it, then I’m, there’s like some punitive measures that will be, that will be implemented.
[00:21:33] Uh, but that’s not, that’s definitely not, uh, uh, that’s not her. So I think, I think like, I know, and the upside of it is that if I do need advice, I know that I can always call my mom and ask her and she’ll like take me very seriously. And I don’t, and what I realized is that a lot of people don’t have that relationship with a parent. And it’s actually really nice, especially as you get older, because like, you know, life’s complicated and multiple perspectives are almost always helpful. And having someone that you know, you could sort of call day or night and they’ll pick up the phone and like have a real conversation with you is a gift. And so I take the good with the bad, you know, sometimes it’s frustrating to get the unsolicited version of that, but like to have the opportunity to solicit it and have a real conversation, um, with both my parents, I really value it.
[00:22:22] Kim Scott: I think that is, that is really important and so well said, because I think this, this often happens between parents and children. Is that the parents, because they love their children so much. I mean, and now I, you know, I’m on both sides of this. Like when my kids have a problem, I do leap into, I want to solve the problem. Because I can, and when my children are sad about something, it’s all it’s, it is really difficult for me to, to be present with their sorrow because I don’t want them to be sad, you know. And I think, uh, in fact, one of my favorite books of all time is called Everything is Illuminated. And, and that’s a big theme of that book is his parents cannot bear that he is sad and, uh, and there’s what to be sad about.
[00:23:14] And I think that is really, and, and I think if we go back to ChatGPTs assessment of emotional history, um, sorry, of generational differences. I’ve, I have found between generations, there it’s very hard for the older generation to see a younger generation in pain. And allow, and it’s also an older generation, the older generation tends to want to protect the younger generation from the pain they themselves experienced or from mistakes that they themselves have made. And I think that that can really get in the way of good communication.
[00:23:55] Um, but I think Jason, what you were saying about being able to accept this advice, even advice you have no intention of, of taking, but accepting it as a gift. Like thinking of it as you were, as you were talking, I was thinking of it, like, maybe it’s a sweater that, I mean, how many times does somebody get a sweater they’re not going to wear at the holidays, uh, or something. Uh, you know, you can say thank you, but that doesn’t mean you have to wear the sweater.
[00:24:23] Jason Rosoff: Yeah, you certainly don’t have to wear it every day. I think that that’s the hard part is like doing that and, and having some boundaries for yourself as to like how far you’re going to take it. Sorry, Amy, I interrupted you.
[00:24:37] Amy Sandler: Oh, that’s okay. I just feel like I’m right back at home. No, I’m just kidding. And I do think, you know, those dynamics and, and we were talking about birth order, um, just to, before I get into the gifts, I’ll just say so that we can get back to them with our friend, ChatGPT. There were, there were three other pieces about why this is hard. And, and so much of what you’ve shared talks about this too. That we don’t have practice, I mean, we always talk about Radical Candor takes practice. And often in our families that’s not something we’ve been practicing. And as a, as a corollary like we have limited time together. And do we want to spend that time if we’re only together, you know, this one week, do we want to spend it having these conversations, or sort of focus on harmony? Um, and to that point people might have different priorities of how they want to spend the time.
[00:25:28] One way that people spend time is certainly exchanging gifts. And so I went down a little bit of a rabbit hole, uh, on TikTok there was a, an area, Hating Christmas gifts had seven point five billion views. And then I got into another rabbit hole of Christmas gifts for people you don’t like, but you don’t want them to know you don’t like them. And somehow it ended up being an ad for body spray and body wash and other things of that, that note. Um, but there was, since we love a framework, there was a framework, um, called The Gift Rift, why certain gifts are great to give, but not to get. And the framework, um, authors, and we can put this in the show notes, to the givers primarily focus on the moment of exchange. Whereas recipients primarily focus on how valuable a gift will be once owned. So givers appraising aspects of a gift that might make it seem optimal, optimal when initially gifted. So for example, it’s surprise, it’s surprising, it’s desirable. Whereas recipients are focused on something that’s gonna make it better to own. It’s useful, it’s versatile.
[00:26:37] Kim Scott: And I, wait, wait a minute. So if I’m giving a gift, I’m focused on you being happy at the moment of giving it to, to you. Whereas if you’re receiving the gift, you’re thinking about how you’re going to, when am I going to use this?
[00:26:50] Amy Sandler: Like when am I going to use this macrame unicorn?
[00:26:52] Kim Scott: Yeah. Okay.
[00:26:55] Amy Sandler: And I thought that was interesting because we talk so much about Radical Candor measured not at my mouth as the sort of giver. Um, but really, you know, how is it landing for the other person? And apparently in this, uh, you know, social psychology research, there’s a lot about intentions and consequences. Like recipients become annoyed if a gift doesn’t match their preferences. So then the relationship is getting weaker, uh, at best, a poorly chosen gift will irritate the recipient, but it can drive the giver and recipient apart. And so I’m curious, have either of you ever had a time when either a gift you gave or received, uh, didn’t quite go the way that you had wanted to?
[00:27:35] Kim Scott: We had a whole, yes, you, you go first, Jason, tell, tell your story.
[00:27:42] Jason Rosoff: Well, I’ll tell a story that is part of my family lore, uh, first. Which is early on in my parents relationship, um, my, my dad, um, was looking for the perfect gift for my mom and she had been complaining about their vacuum cleaner, vacuum cleaner wasn’t working. It was so frustrating. Um, it’s no good. We’re going to throw this thing away. And so my dad thinking, what a thoughtful thing for my mom’s birthday. He will buy her like a very fancy vacuum cleaner. And of course, the thing about the vacuum cleaner is that it’s not for my mom, like it’s not like, it is a tool of the household. Um, so like in retrospect, it makes, it seems quite silly, but it, it caused a nearly un, unresolvable, uh, fight between my parents. Because my dad, practical loving, practical guy that he is, is like, but you use it all the time. He was like, if you got me a new saw, I would be so happy because my saw drives me crazy.
[00:28:54] Um, he, it took him a very long time to, to appreciate why that was such a bad gift. And I think it was fundamentally rooted, not in the usefulness, uh, ’cause like my mom didn’t argue with the utility of the gift, but that my mom did not identify with the vacuum cleaner. And so she felt like the gift was not for her. It was for the work that she was doing, you know, around the house and that that was not an appropriate birthday gift. I tend to agree. And at the same time, I am on the side of like, I’d love a very practical gift. Like I really enjoy a practical gift like that.
[00:29:35] Kim Scott: I will say, here’s why I was laughing when I heard the story, Jason, what, what jumped to mind, which may not be the case for your mother, but if I were, if I received a vacuum cleaner, the reason I would hate it is because I hate to vacuum. Like, don’t give me something that is going to help me do something I hate to do. Like pay for someone else to come vacuum, and I’ll be very happy, but do not give me an expensive vacuum cleaner.
[00:30:02] Jason Rosoff: I think that, I think that’s closer to the, that, that is, that is pretty accurate. I also think that it was like, again, not only was it helping my mom do something that she didn’t love to do. My mom just felt like my, my dad wasn’t thinking of her. Like, I think that’s really what it boils down to.
[00:30:20] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:30:21] Amy Sandler: Kim, I think you had a story.
[00:30:23] Kim Scott: Yeah, um, well, so I will, shortly after Andy and I got married for his birthday, a friend of mine and I were at the garden store, and Andy has exactly zero interest in, I mean, that is my domain, he does not want to be bothered with anything that has, anything outside is my job. And I decided, this was before I quite understood that, and we decided to get him an herb garden for his birthday. Uh, and he, uh, yeah, he was like, this is a gift for you. This is not a gift for me. Yeah. And he was, he was exactly right. So. Yes, I have, I have screwed up giving a gift. Luckily it didn’t destroy our marriage or anything, but, uh, but I learned, but, and I was glad that he told me that. Like, he didn’t, I mean, he wasn’t, he’s, he said, thank you, but he also told me how he really felt.
[00:31:18] And I think in the case of a really close, like in the case of a spouse, certainly it’s important to let the person know that you, that you didn’t like the gift. So I’m very glad he told me. Um, I will say in terms of what you were reading, Amy, what was coming to mind for me is when I was, when I was at Google instead of secret santa, after, after the holidays we had a, a party where everybody would bring from the holidays, uh, it was called, no it was not a white elephant. It was called the gift that was, gee, I wish you were a different person. And so everybody, and everybody would get something like this. And when they would show it, like everyone, and this is work. Like we didn’t know each other. We were you know, presumably their families know them better. But they were like, how can your family have given you this? We wish you were, gee I wish you were a different person. And this was very cathartic and there was always someone else on the team who was thrilled to get that.
[00:32:27] Amy Sandler: Who is that person.
[00:32:28] Kim Scott: You know, well, I mean, look, you know, like, like I would get something, some like frilly thing, uh, and everybody would laugh, but there was somebody on the, on the team who’s thrilled to, so you could nom, you could grab the gift, like, well, you’re not that person, but I am that person and I love that gift. And so it was a great swap, uh,
[00:32:50] Amy Sandler: And I love that. And I think I didn’t go through the, however many billion of, um, video content about, you know, gifts that people didn’t want, but I do think there’s some sense of not feeling seen or feeling like there’s some message. Like you should be some person who wants this frilly thing, or you should be this person who loves to garden, or you should be this person who’s vacuuming. And so there’s something about your intrinsic nature, not being seen or appreciated, um, which we got into in another podcast.
[00:33:30] Jason, were you wanting to say something more about that?
[00:33:33] Jason Rosoff: One thing that’s coming to mind is that at least the three of us have reasonably good relationships with our family. I think, you know, if your relationship with your family is very, is extraordinarily strained in some way, then gift giving becomes like a, an especially big minefield.
[00:33:49] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:33:49] Jason Rosoff: Um, because I, I think the, in an interesting way, the like giving, like what you give and when you give it often when relationships are strained, we like don’t interact. We were avoiding each other. We don’t interact as much. And so these moments have even more imbued meaning in them because it’s one of our few interactions that we, that we have.
[00:34:14] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:34:14] Jason Rosoff: So now you’ve taken a thing which is very difficult, which is like, you know, giving a, giving a good gift is difficult and you, you put all this extra pressure on it. I think that happens a lot at the holidays. Like one of the things as I was preparing for this episode and just sort of like thinking back on my experiences. One of the hardest parts about the holidays is not even so much about how you want to spend the time, but how few interactions you actually have with the people that you tend to see at these times of the year where, like, you know, extended family or people from this, like, slightly broader social circle are there.
[00:34:48] And when I was thinking about, you know, not just gift giving, I was thinking about, you know, sometimes you’d like to say, you know, Radical Candor can be a gift and it, and it could only be a gift when it is really, it’s offered in a, in the spirit of helpfulness. And that was like the big question for me is like, what is, what constitutes helpful, uh, in this situation? And, uh, Kim, the reason why your story with Andy, like to me is so heartwarming is because, I think his feedback was a gift. He said, look, you know, like it, it baked into it was, we’re in this for the long haul. I want, I’d like, I want,
[00:35:28] Kim Scott: I don’t want another herb garden when this one dies.
[00:35:32] Jason Rosoff: Correct. Uh, like there’s, there’s something really lovely about that, but if it’s your, you know, your aunt who you see literally once a year or once every other year or whatever. Like what is the best? You know what I’m saying? Like,
[00:35:47] Amy Sandler: Yeah, we were talking on the team call about like Jell O molds and casseroles. And if your aunt, you know, makes that special Jell O mold every year, is that ruinous empathy or is that gratitude?
[00:35:59] Kim Scott: Yeah. Here’s the thing. Here’s the thing. I have strong feelings about the Jell O mold. For me, it wasn’t, it wasn’t, it wasn’t a Jell O mold. It was spiced peaches. So I don’t love spiced peaches and also like I had eaten too much, you know. I had been the, the meal was beginning to feel, I was beginning to feel like I was a foie gras goose, not a guest at this meal, at this holiday meal. And yet I forced myself to eat them and then I had a terrible stomach ache, and then, she thought I loved them. So there were more, you know, so I think what I think it’s really important to be able to say I’m full. I’ve had enough, you know. Thank you so much for making this. I am sorry I haven’t done it justice. But I’m uncomfortably full. Like, I think, I think that’s important. I think it’s also important at the holidays and we’ve talked about this before, but like, if you don’t want to be kissed, you don’t have to kiss, hug and kiss, you know, like you don’t have to accept.
[00:37:07] Like I had this, I had this great, great, great aunt. And, and she would, man, she would come and she wouldn’t just kiss you. She would like lick your cheek, you know, like giant wet marks. And, and, you know, we were not, we were, I was lectured before family, it was always at Christmas too. I was lectured before Christmas. You cannot wipe, I’m allowed, that she has since passed on so I’m going to say her name. You cannot wipe aunt Coy’s, you know, spit off your cheek. Like so not only did you have to accept the spit on your cheek, like you weren’t allowed, you had to like tactfully go to the bathroom before you wipe it off. And this, this meant that I dreaded these family, these family gatherings because, and I, later to my, and like it wasn’t, it was not kind to aunt Coy not to tell her either. Like we, we, ’cause we all talked about it behind her back, you know, and laughed about it. Like that was not, that was not nice to aunt Coy. It was, it was truly ruinous empathy not to, you know, not to say, ah, you know, I’d, I’d rather just give you a hug or something, you know, or somebody could have pulled her aside and said, you know, when you kiss people, it leaves a wet mark on their cheek and they don’t like it.
[00:38:38] Like that’s not the, wouldn’t have been, but I remember speaking with my dad about this and my father was like known for saying whatever was on his mind all the time, anytime, not shy, not holding back. And he looked at me like with real fear in his eyes. And he said, I can’t imagine who would have had the courage to say that to aunt Coy. I mean, and aunt Coy was a ninety-two year old, you know, four foot eight woman that like, why was everybody so afraid to tell her? I don’t know.
[00:39:10] Jason Rosoff: Some, I think this is, it’s bringing me, it’s bringing me to this place where I’m like, who knows what?
[00:39:17] Amy Sandler: And that’s why I wrote the book Radical Candor.
[00:39:22] Jason Rosoff: Who knows what aunt Coy once was, but I was thinking about the gift of like what you give someone who you wish was a different person in the spirit of, you know, not measure not at your mouth, but at the other person’s ear. I think the hard part is in our heads, we have a perception of who that other person is. And, uh, and maybe that perception is frozen in time, meaning maybe we had lots of interactions with that person when they were younger, but we’ve had very few as they’ve gotten older, and so some of our perceptions of that person are sort of frozen in a, in a previous time, and even then, they weren’t very accurate. You know what I’m saying? Like, the data you have is old. It’s not very accurate. You’re basing a lot of assumptions on that, but where I was going was like, I think a lot of the problem with holidays is obligation. Um, and it goes both directions. I think gift giving would be a lot better if you gave the gift with the intent, with the hope that the person loved it, but with no, without obliging them to like it.
[00:40:22] Kim Scott: To love it. Yes. It’s like forced fun. It’s, it’s toxic positivity.
[00:40:27] Amy Sandler: It’s kind of like Kim, you saying you don’t like the word constructive because you’re implying that this is going to be constructive for you. Like it’s a gift. I’m sharing something, but whether it’s actually a helpful gift is really up to the other person.
[00:40:40] Jason Rosoff: And it helps on the receiving end too, to say I can receive this gift, but I don’t oblige the other person to have given me the perfect gift. You know what I’m saying? Like, I’m not creating an obligation on their part either. Um, and I do think that a lot of the problem with gift giving boils down to the fact that it does feel like an obligation. You don’t really know what to get the other person. And so you’re left with this sort of devil’s bargain where you’re like going out to try to find a gift for someone. But you don’t really know. You don’t know what they would like. And you know that there’s a chance that it’s like becomes a new, like a toxic waste dump of a family mess, you know, where you’ve created this horrible problem.
[00:41:19] Kim Scott: Yeah. No, it’s funny when we were, when I was getting together with, uh, with my husband and my husband’s brother and his wife. Both Andy’s brother, Tom, and I were saying that we just we hate buying gifts. We hate receiving gifts. We just wish there were no gifts And, and it turned out that both Tom’s wife, Lana, and, and Andy, my husband, the gift that they give us is they do all the gift buying. Like I don’t, I buy almost nothing for anybody at the holidays. And that is, that is, aside from doing all my paperwork, the best gift Andy Scott ever gave me.
[00:42:00] Like it’s, it’s ’cause now I can enjoy the holidays. I can show up and see people who I like to, but the, but for me, at least the stress of buying things, the stress of being grateful for things that were bought for me, that I didn’t really want, stress of writing thank you notes. Like I just, and one time my mother got this little Heron’s bunny, which she loved, it’s a little porcelain thing. And I broke the ear off it and I destroyed her gift that she loved. Like I have, I hate gifts. Um, uh, I’ll just confess that. Bah humbug. But I, but I know that other people love that. Like I would feel terrible if the gifts were not purchased. So, um, you know, number thing, number one million two hundred and fifty-five thousand that I’m grateful to Andy Scott for is dealing with buying most of the holiday gifts.
[00:42:57] Jason Rosoff: I really feel like there should be a sign up. You should say I’m a gift person. Like I want to give and receive a gift and then you should be able to tell someone, hey, these are the, like, here’s the kinds of things I’m interested in. Like, I believe that if we, if we wanted holiday gift giving to be the joyous thing that it’s meant to be, we, we wouldn’t shoot from the hips so much, you know what I’m saying? Like, uh, that’s, that’s, uh,
[00:43:22] Kim Scott: But can we also sign up to get nothing? Like there was a children’s book.
[00:43:25] Jason Rosoff: Yes, exactly.
[00:43:26] Kim Scott: There’s a children’s book.
[00:43:27] Jason Rosoff: The best gift for you.
[00:43:28] Kim Scott: Yes. Nothing. And also no obligation to buy anything for you either. I know that sounds horrible and maybe that’s like not, maybe I need to buy things for other people and, but I really don’t like to receive. Yeah. And then I forget to say thank you. And then I feel like a shitty person. I have all kinds of guilt, uh, associated with, with gifts.
[00:43:51] Amy Sandler: So just to bring this back with the goal of giving, if we can, a little bit of guidance apart from not buying anyone named Kim Scott gifts or having an expectation that Kim will provide gifts, which I think is a clear instruction for the Radical Candor team. Given when we are together with family, with loved ones over the holiday, if we are in fact together, uh, we have limited time together. There might be, as ChatGPT so eloquently defined, that we have different expectations and priorities. Some people might want to be escaping from work and stress of having these difficult conversations.
[00:44:28] Maybe we just want to relax. So given that, that we might only be together once a year, brief amount of time, Kim, how strongly do you encourage people to, to lean into Radical Candor or to let that thing slide in the spirit of, of harmony and limited time and different expectations?
[00:44:50] Kim Scott: You know, as always, there’s no absolute answer to that question, but here’s, here’s where I sort of come down. I think you, you want, you want to make sure that you’re going way high up on care personally with your family and that you’re taking the time to express your love for them. Focus on all the things that you appreciate about being with them. Focus on the good stuff, certainly when you’re, especially with family that you, you don’t get to see as often as you would like to see, it’s really important, you know, if, if you are comfortable hugging people, hug and they want to be hugged, don’t lick anybody’s cheek would be my advice.
[00:45:31] But, uh, but you know, physical affection to the extent that that is, uh, that that is welcomed, I think is great. So you want to go way, way high on care personally. But if someone says something to you that is going to like, send you, make it impossible for you to care personally, I think you’ve, you’ve got to say, you know, I really, you know how I feel about that, could we, could you please not, you know, you could just say to the person, could you please not say that.
[00:46:05] Amy Sandler: Kim, can I ask, I, and you don’t have to answer this, that is is a gift I will give to you, but I know this is a, this is a topic that you, you really wanted to talk about.
[00:46:17] Kim Scott: Yeah. You know, I, I think that, I think that I sometimes joke, you know, it was not okay to say no, it was not okay, uh to, to sit often to, to have a discussion about topics. And I think that ruinous empathy, uh, it’s, it can really pile up. Uh, and so I think if you want to begin to improve your relationships, I have found it’s really important to be able to say when some, when someone is doing something that is really bothering you, to say so. Uh, because it’s not going to improve your relationship, uh, in, in most cases, if you don’t, you don’t have to get into a long, you know, argument about a political topic, but you can say.
[00:47:08] Because I think what I mean, for me, what happens is there have been times when I’ve been, I feel like I’m forced to pretend to agree when I disagree and then I feel a lack of agency and I feel a sense of rage and then that does not improve the relationship or the, or the holidays, you know? So I think just saying, you know, I feel differently about it, but I love you. I’m here to be with you. I’m not here to solve X, Y, Z policy issue.
[00:47:38] Jason Rosoff: That, that’s great advice for tough topics. And then I think if someone says something to you, that is actually hurtful. Like I’ll, a friend of mine told me a story recently about how they returned. They had just come back from Thanksgiving with their in-laws and for technical reasons, they’re moving out of the country, and for technical reasons, they had to get married to their, um, their partner and so that they could apply for visas and other stuff. They already intended to get married next year. They said, please, you know, don’t tell anybody we want to, we want everybody to celebrate our wedding next year, but like they’re told their parents. And they get to Thanksgiving dinner and every person that they meet is like, congratulations, you guys on getting married, the whole, the whole family knew what happened.
[00:48:26] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:48:27] Jason Rosoff: My, my advice was one. I think it’d be helpful to understand why they decided to tell people, right? Because like, did they think it was unfair for you to keep it? Not because you’re going to accept that, but because I think it’s important to understand when someone hurt, like, especially if you have a long-term relationship, when someone does something that’s hurtful, it’s helpful to understand like where they were coming from.
[00:48:48] Um, but I think you also need to say like, that was really hurtful. Like that, that we, like I, I asked you to do a thing and I had my, I understand you had your reasons for doing it, but I had my reasons for asking. And I’m sad like that, that you chose to do that. I’m feeling hurt that you chose to do that. I think you can address the hurt without turning it into a debate about who’s right and who’s wrong, you know what I’m saying? Like, I don’t think you have to get into like the, like the why so much as you can say, you know, that, that hurt me and I wish you hadn’t, hadn’t done that.
[00:49:22] Amy Sandler: Well, and Jason, I think that example is a really good one of a specific thing that happened and a specific impact. And I think the kinds of things that, that Kim is talking about are these patterns where we may have very different beliefs or values from family members. And so that could devolve into, you always say this, or we’re sort of in this camp, or this other camp, and I think those feel like two different potential examples where one action happened that felt like went against what I had told you. Versus, you and I have very different beliefs and I love you and, you know how I feel about that. I don’t think we’re going to change each other’s minds.
[00:50:01] Jason Rosoff: Correct. So it’s about the, make it about the specific thing. Don’t make it into the, don’t, don’t try to have the, like, you always, like that, that conversation is never going to end in a, in a good place.
[00:50:12] Kim Scott: I think there’s another dynamic. I had a therapist who explained this to me and it was a real revelation. So I’ll share it with folks. Maybe it’ll help other people as well. But he said his, and he was talking about himself. He said his kids were home for the holidays and he adores his children. And he’s, he said, he realized that in the past, you know, if his kids were going to come home for a week at about day four, he was starting to dread the moment when they would leave. And so he would pick a fight with them. And I think that sometimes we do this, when, when we’re only getting together for a short amount of time. And this is true, so many families are scattered all over, not just the country, but the world. And then you get together just for a few days, you know, once or twice a year.
[00:51:01] And part of the reason why that time can feel so fraught is because it is so short. And so one of the things that I’ve tried to do is just to appreciate every day that I’ve got, you know, and, um, that to me was really helpful because I found that that was very true. The first few days of a visit were really good. And then the last three, we were fighting all the time. And I think we were fighting in part to like, make it okay to leave, like, and that’s, that doesn’t make any sense, but, and yet it does make all the sense in the, in the world at the same time.
[00:51:39] Jason Rosoff: Yeah, I, uh, this, this may be a little morbid for a, for a, uh, a holiday themed podcast, but I, I’ve done the math. Like I know how old my parents are.
[00:51:49] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:51:49] Jason Rosoff: I know how many times a year I see them, you know, my same thing with my family. Like I, I know that, you know, it’s, it’s highly likely that I might only be in person with my parents another twenty to forty times. That, that’s like high, that, there’s like a high probability of that. Um, and that doesn’t mean you don’t address issues, but I do think it helps keep things in perspective of like, if, if things don’t feel good, like let’s address the things that don’t feel good because as much as like we maybe don’t have the time to practice that we would like, we also don’t have time to waste.
[00:52:26] So like, let’s make it as good as we possibly can. I think if you go into it, that attitude, it helps you move up on care personally automatically. And it helps you figure out where that line is of like, can I address a thing? And sort of like, that’s, that’s likely to, to repeat or can I let a thing slide because it’s not that big of a deal.
[00:52:45] Amy Sandler: While we’re on that topic, Kim, I do want to share some gratitude for you and the Radical Candor framework. We are coming up on the third anniversary of my dad’s passing from Alzheimer’s and when we started going through that process as a family, and I share this, like Jason, what you just shared, if it’s helpful for people to have the shared language of Radical Candor of care personally and challenge directly, and even to be able to use some humor, like, oh, I know you think that’s Radical Candor, but that’s actually obnoxious impression, et cetera.
[00:53:18] Like we all had that as a shared language and, you know, when I was reflecting on this podcast, I was thinking, gosh, we ended up even closer as a family unit, siblings and mom and brothers in law and nibblings if I can take that on. And I think a lot of it was because we, we did nip any issues in the bud and not only in how we were talking with each other, but also with all of the different professionals that we had to talk to and healthcare and, uh, you know, hospitals and, and all of that.
[00:53:54] And to have that model, it just gave us this shared language during such a difficult time that was kind of like, uh, a life raft in many ways of like how to help navigate it. So, um, it was, you know, it doesn’t make the situation easier, but to have a model for how we can talk about it and how we can actually collaborate and work together, because, you know, usually a family isn’t necessarily on a project, but this in some ways was a project that was the most important project of our lives. And the fact that we came through it closer, um, I know my dad would have been proud. And so thank you, Kim.
[00:54:31] Kim Scott: Well, uh, your, the service, your father is an incredible man. And, uh, and, and the service was really, I got to go over Zoom and it was really, I admired the way your family, uh, came together. So I’m thrilled that Radical Candor was even a little part of that.
[00:54:51] Amy Sandler: It was a really a big part of it. So thank you. And, uh, oh, yeah. Gifts. It is our gift to you to give you the Radical Candor checklist and our intention is that you can use these tips to actually put it into practice. But if these tips don’t work and if it’s not helpful, you can exchange them. You can re-gift the podcast. You’re under no obligation whatsoever. Kim.
[00:55:18] Kim Scott: Uh, all right. Tip number one. Let the person, if you’re giving a gift, let the person that you gave the gift know that it’s really, really okay not to like it. They can exchange it, they can regift it like this is, you’re giving this to them because you care about them, not because you’re insisting that they love it. And if you receive a gift that maybe you don’t love, if you get a sweater that you don’t like. Don’t feel like you have to wear it or else you will get another one next year.
[00:55:49] Amy Sandler: And it might not be orange or purple. Tip number two. When it comes to time together with family over the holidays, focus on care. And feel empowered to say, let’s say you’re having a disagreement, especially about an area where you and your family members see things differently, feel empowered to say that you do love them. And you know that you see things differently. And we can agree to disagree.
[00:56:18] Kim Scott: Can I offer tip number two and a half?
[00:56:20] Amy Sandler: Please.
[00:56:20] Kim Scott: This one is going out there to all the folks who are not getting together with family at the holidays, which I know can also be hard in a different way. I remember when I was, when I was, I don’t know, I guess I was thirty-seven. And I was sort of bemoaning my single state to a friend of mine who was married. And she said, well, yeah, marriage is hard, too. And so if you’re feeling bereft, uh, at not getting together with your family for the holidays, we wish you lots of love and um, and, uh, and if it’s any small comfort, it’s hard to get together with the family at holidays as well
[00:57:00] Amy Sandler: Well, and I am in that boat for, for this coming holiday, Kim. So thank you for acknowledging that.
[00:57:08] Kim Scott: Um, well, you’re welcome to come here.
[00:57:10] Amy Sandler: Oh, well, I’m not going to get you a gift. That’s for sure.
[00:57:14] Kim Scott: Don’t bring a gift, but you’re welcome, your presence would be a present.
[00:57:18] Amy Sandler: Oh, thank you, Jason.
[00:57:22] Jason Rosoff: Tip number three. Remember time is short, think about how you can expand the Overton window of what might be acceptable so that you don’t wind up picking a fight just to make it easier to part ways.
[00:57:38] Kim Scott: Tip number four. This is tip number ChatGPT, which I don’t love, but I’m going to read it and then we’ll do a human versus machine on this. Okay, this is what the machine says. Instead of simply pointing out problems or grievances, work together with your family members to find solutions. First of all, I would say, no, don’t try to find solutions. Uh, show you care, share how you feel, but very often the problems that are arising are insoluble ones and you have to be present with them. At least, that’s my, I don’t know, what do you all think about solutions with family?
[00:58:20] Jason Rosoff: We’ve talked briefly in previous podcasts about this idea of solving it twice, where like the first solve is like the immediate fix, the band aid, and the second solve is the long term fix. The problem with the holidays is you only have time for the first one. So if you go into it trying to do the long term fix, the second solution, you’re going to be very disappointed. So I would agree with you.
[00:58:41] Amy Sandler: Yeah, well, let me add, Kim, ChatGPT also said, for instance, you might say, I’ve been thinking about how we can improve our communication.
[00:58:49] I’d love to hear your thoughts on how we can make things better for both of us. Yes, no, better, worse.
[00:58:57] Kim Scott: I’ve tried that and it did not work.
[00:59:01] Jason Rosoff: What I, what I would say, what I would say about that is like, I think it really depends on your relationship. If this is someone who you see, you see, or talk to on a regular basis outside of the holidays, I think something like that could work, but if it’s someone you’re not going to talk to again, um, for another year or whatever, then I think it’s, it’s a really hard sell.
[00:59:27] Kim Scott: I was told to be more polite when I asked a version of this question, which, which meant, which meant agree with me about everything. And that just wasn’t going to work for me. It didn’t. It was so I think, I think that what I’ve tried to, what I’ve tried to do anyway is when something is said that it upsets me or is offensive or, um, I say, look, I’m here because I love you. Uh, and, and this is not a topic where, we’re getting, you know, that’s going to be productive for us to talk about.
[01:00:01] Amy Sandler: For more tips, you can go to radicalcandor.com/resources. If you know someone who loves Radical Candor, and that someone might be you, go ahead, go to radicalcandor.com/shop, S H O P, for our selection of gifts. Kim, I do believe you have some radically candid, radically candid ornaments.
[01:00:22] Kim Scott: Yeah, if you have a Festivus pole or some sort of Christmas tree, that you want to hang an ornament on, there is a Radical Candor ornament. We’ll put some pictures of them.
[01:00:35] Jason Rosoff: Even if you just have a lonely coat hook in your house and you’re thinking, wouldn’t it be festive to put a Radical Candor ornament on it? It’s got the logo and the two by two right on there. Maybe you put it near the entrance to your house so that when people come over, they can see it.
[01:00:51] Kim Scott: Like mistletoe, you could put it right over the,
[01:00:53] Brandi Neal: There’s also lots of non ornament gifts.
[01:00:58] Kim Scott: Yes, there’s also, there’s, there’s hoodies, there’s t-shirts, there’s mugs.
[01:01:03] Jason Rosoff: Any, any way you like it.
[01:01:05] Amy Sandler: Show notes, go over to radicalcandor.com/podcast. Praise in public and private, and criticize in private. So if you like what you hear, please do rate and review us wherever you’re listening. That is a gift we all would appreciate. Kim is, can I speak for you as well? Would you appreciate that gift?
[01:01:26] Kim Scott: Yes. I love the gift of criticism. I really do genuinely love it.
[01:01:30] Amy Sandler: Oh I thought you were talking about the gift of praising on our podcast, but sure. We can get,
[01:01:33] Kim Scott: I thought you were going to criticize me in private. That’s what I really want is your criticism. Send it, send it on, podcast@radicalcandor.com.
[01:01:41] Amy Sandler: That is criticizing in private. Well, any final thoughts, uh, as we head into the holiday?
[01:01:49] Kim Scott: I wish everyone love and joy and, uh, and my own personal tip for the holidays is make sure that you have your own automobile and can drive away if you need a few minutes to take it.
[01:02:06] Amy Sandler: Or just an Uber or cab.
[01:02:08] Yes, whatever. It was very important for me. I always, yes.
[01:02:12] Brandi Neal: I also recommend staying in a hotel or an Airbnb. I never stay with my family.
[01:02:20] Kim Scott: Yeah, your own place. Yeah, a little, little bit of, uh, little bit of sort of care personally for yourself goes a long way at the holidays.
[01:02:29] Amy Sandler: Well, I will say before we close that this podcast is truly one of the greatest gifts of my day to day experience at Radical Candor. So thank you for being a part of it.
[01:02:40] And Nick, thank you for joining the team this year.
[01:02:44] Nick Carissimi: Thank you so much for having me. I absolutely love working on this show and working with you guys and getting to know you. Uh, it has absolutely been my pleasure and I look forward to next year and beyond. Thank you all.
[01:02:58] Kim Scott: Thank you all. I really, I was thinking the same thing, Amy. I was listening to the podcast and thinking how much I enjoyed these conversations. And thanks to all of you all who are listening.
[01:03:08] Amy Sandler: Yeah. Otherwise we’d just be talking amongst ourselves. All right.
[01:03:15] Brandi Neal: Goodbye.
[01:03:15] Amy Sandler: Well, bye for now. The Radical Candor podcast is based on the book Radical Candor, Be a Kick Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity by Kim Scott. Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by me, Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by me, still Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn, Radical Candor, the company, and visit us at radicalcandor.com.
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The Radical Candor Podcast is based on the book Radical Candor: Be A Kickass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity by Kim Scott.
Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer.
The Radical Candor Podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Order his book: The Reason For The Rhymes: Mastering the Seven Essential Skills of Innovation by Learning to Write Songs.
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