Navigating Feedback Disagreements at Work 6 | 40

Episode at a Glance: Navigating Disagreements

Radical Candor Podcast Resources

• How to Respond to Negative Feedback at Work That You Disagree With | Radical Candor
• Listen, Challenge, Commit | Radical Candor Podcast 6 | 17
• Radical Candor Community
• 6 Tips For How To Receive Feedback Well | Radical Candor
• Follow These 4 Steps to Create Psychological Safety in Your Teams | Fast Company
• Tell Me Why I’m Wrong: Resolving Disagreements with Your Direct Reports | LinkedIn
• The Power Of Rituals At Work | Radical Candor Podcast 6 | 16
• How To Get Stuff Done | Radical Candor Podcast 4 | 2
• How To Give Candid Feedback Using The CORE Method | Radical Candor
• How To Encourage Feedback Between Others In The Workplace | Radical Candor
• Alan Mullaly of Ford at Stanford Graduate School of Business | YouTube

Radical Candor Podcast Tips

• Listen and confirm. When you get impromptu feedback, repeat back what you heard to ensure you understood the feedback. Next, take your time to process the feedback. It’s perfectly acceptable to ask for time to reflect before responding, especially if you feel defensive. Acknowledge the feedback in the moment and let them know you will follow up soon. When you’re ready, schedule a meeting.
• Identify what you want to say. Find the 5-10% of the feedback you do agree with then be specific about what you disagree with. Make note of both of these things and practice your conversation with a friend or mentor beforehand. Identify your best alternative to a negotiated agreement.
• Commit to a course of action. Even if you don’t agree with all the feedback, work together to find a path forward that addresses the concerns raised. This collaborative approach not only resolves the current issue but also strengthens your relationship with the person providing feedback.

The TLDR Radical Candor Podcast Transcript

[00:00:00] Jason Rosoff: Hello, everybody. And welcome to the Radical Candor podcast. I’m Jason Rosoff. 

[00:00:08] Amy Sandler: I’m Amy Sandler. And today we are doing something very exciting we’ve never done before. We are streaming this episode live to the Radical Candor community. This is our new home for experienced and aspiring leaders from around the world. Just like you who want to use Radical Candor so you can build better relationships, get more done at work. If you are not yet a member, you can join at community.radicalcandor.com. 

[00:00:39] We will soon be offering an ad free version of this very podcast. You also can download the app and Jason, before we jump in, can you explain to folks joining us live in the community how to interact with us and tell people a little bit more about these live episodes. 

[00:00:57] Jason Rosoff: Absolutely. So the live episode is a special bonus offering to people who join the community and want to have a chance to get a peek behind the scenes and see how the sausage is made. And I will warn you, it is not pretty. Um, but we, we’re doing this because so many of our best podcast episodes start with a listener question.

[00:01:23] Just like today’s podcast episode, we’ll start with a listener question. And so we thought it would be fantastic to actually get the listeners involved in the podcast process. And so for today, there’s a couple of ways that folks can interact with us. One, you can drop a note into the live stream chat. Uh, we will see those as, uh, as we go along. I’ll be keeping an eye on the live stream chat. So if you drop something in there, uh, I’ll try to make note of it.

[00:01:46] And then the second way that we’ll be interacting is we’ll take a break about forty-five minutes from now, once we finish the core content of the episode, and look over chat and see what questions people might have had, uh, and try to answer them before we wrap up the episode. So after the Q&A break, we’ll come back and we will record our tips, uh, and we’ll record the show closing at that time. So we’re looking forward to hopping into today’s conversation. We look forward to seeing your notes in chat as we go. And, uh, we will talk to all the live stream members again in about forty-five minutes.

[00:02:23] Amy Sandler: All right. Well, welcome. We’re so glad to have you join us. And today we’ve got a question from a listener about how to address feedback that they don’t agree with. So they write, quote, I would be grateful if you can give me some tips to understand how to deal with impromptu criticism that I don’t agree with. I’m a middle manager at a large company.

[00:02:44] I received a two out of five rating last cycle. So I partially agreed with the reason for not meeting the benchmarks. I accepted that I don’t always communicate clearly, but I wasn’t able to fully accept the feedback about not picking the right things to work on. This person continues, they write, I’ve usually considered criticism as a gift and welcomed it with open ears, irrespective of whether I agree or disagree with it.

[00:03:12] However, I’m now realizing that by not questioning the impromptu feedback or explaining the context behind my decisions, I ended up in a situation where it impacted my ratings. I want to understand how to deal with the situation. I don’t want to kill the messenger, but at the same time I don’t want to be penalized for something I don’t agree with. Look forward to your guidance. 

[00:03:35] Well, thank you for this one. Jason, it sounded like you wanted to jump in already of just some feeling your pain. 

[00:03:42] Jason Rosoff: Yeah, gentle listener. Uh, I would like to start by saying that this is really tough. And it’s a tough lesson to learn, and it’s especially tough to pay sort of a high cost, like getting a low rating in order to learn it. But I would say there are many reasons, not just the potential for a low rating, why disagreeing with feedback is important and the ability to disagree with feedback is important. 

[00:04:11] One of the things that Kim shared with us recently is that, one of the things she hates most in the world is what she calls a pocket veto. And that is where someone silently disagrees with her and then goes and does something contrary to a piece of advice or guidance that she’s given. You know, what she told us, uh, on a team call was like, my love language is disagreement. So if you really care about me, you’re going to tell me that you disagree with me.

[00:04:37] So not only could this hurt your rating, but it can, the failure to disagree with something can actually hurt your relationship with the other person. And it sort of makes sense, right? If you’re, you put yourself in your manager’s shoes, you know, they might believe that you agreed with this feedback and chose not to do anything about it. Which would be harmful to your relationship with them, right?

[00:04:58] Because if I was giving you the feedback and perceived that you agreed with it and then you failed to do anything about it, I would be questioning, like, why aren’t you taking me seriously? Why don’t you believe that the feedback that I’m giving you is important? And that’s not the story, that’s not what really is happening. But in the absence of knowing the truth, which is that you disagree, my brain makes up a story. It fills in the blanks as to like why the behavior is continuing. 

[00:05:27] Amy Sandler: Yeah. I think it’s such a helpful point and appreciate you bringing in Kim’s love language into the conversation. Um, one of the things that we often talk about is how these radically candid, feedback conversations are really focused on development.

[00:05:43] So what this person writes about the sort of impromptu feedback. So I thought it might be helpful to think about, you know, what could they have done differently maybe in the moment in that first, or those first kind of more informal conversations. Um, how they might’ve been able to challenge the feedback more effectively. And then what advice we might have for this person sort of now, now that they’ve gotten this, uh, this, uh, two out of five, you know, how can they follow up?

[00:06:08] So if we could, is there a sound effect of like turning back the wheels of time, like into that moment, you know, this person, so Jason, I’m going to give you some feedback that, uh, you know, you don’t always communicate clearly, um, and you’re not picking the right things to work on. Um, those are sort of the two buckets that was the feedback that it sounds like this person received. 

[00:06:33] So I’d love to get your take on, you know, how do you feel like this person could have responded in the moment more effectively with those couple pieces of feedback? 

[00:06:41] Jason Rosoff: One thing that this person has going for them is that they do agree with part of the feedback. So one of the, one of the things that we find ourselves saying a lot is, in order to avoid the appearance that you’re killing the messenger, it is really helpful actually to identify the parts of the feedback that you agree with and give voice to that agreement and show appreciation for them bringing the feedback to you.

[00:07:04] So I think this person could start by saying, you know, I really do appreciate that you, uh, you’re pointing out this failure to communicate in these situations. It’s certainly not my intent to do that. But now that I have the feedback, I can actually think about how I can approach that differently in the future.

[00:07:20] So, but you, you’ve got that part of the feedback that you agree with. And I think the, there’s a benefit to either in the moment disagreeing and saying, you know, I, if you are prepared, you might say like, and I perceive, my decision making a little bit differently, and let me tell you why I perceive it differently. But often we’re not prepared 

[00:07:42] Amy Sandler: Yeah.

[00:07:42] Jason Rosoff: To receive feedback that we disagree with. And so I just, I wanna give permission to do a couple of different things that I think could be helpful. One would you could give voice to your, to, to the reaction. You could say, you know, I’m having a reaction to this other piece of feedback. You know, I’m not sure I entirely agree with it. Um, I’d like to think about it. 

[00:08:05] But maybe you that’s too uncomfortable or you don’t feel totally safe disagreeing with your boss who’s giving you the feedback. And so another thing that you could do for yourself is instead of disagreeing in the moment you could say, you’ve given me a lot to think about with the decision, on the decisions about what to work on. Would it be okay if I took a couple of days to think about it and got back to you. And what I will say is every time that I have done that in my career, I have been rewarded for doing it.

[00:08:33] And not necessarily, not only when I’ve gotten feedback that I don’t necessarily agree with from my boss. But the same thing from people who work for me or from my peers. I think we’re often afraid to not react exactly right in the moment. And we’re worried that if we ask for more time, someone’s going to think we’re, uh, we’re like, we are doing the pocket veto. We’re sort of brushing them off. But what I’ve found is like when you actually follow up when you say you will, um, people are very happy to give you the time. 

[00:09:00] So that, those are my, those are like three different ways that you could handle the situation. One is to like talk about it in the moment. Another one is to give voice to the disagreement and ask for some more time. And the last one is to just ask for some additional time to think about what they’ve said. What do you think about that? 

[00:09:17] Amy Sandler: Yeah, I think that’s great. And all of them are pointing to the fact that in the moment you’re having this reaction, you likely disagree or you may, you might not even know whether you agree or disagree. You might need to clarify it first for yourself. But not only are you giving yourself time and space to clarify your own thinking, you’re also acknowledging in that moment to the other person that there is not full alignment. 

[00:09:42] So in some way, kind of silence might be interpreted as agreement in this conversation. So I think that’s a really important valuable signal for that other person to hear. 

[00:09:53] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. And by saying, I’d like to take time to think about it, I actually think you’re, that is another way of showing appreciation for the effort that the person put into it. Because my guess is like, it’s so clear from the way that the person wrote this note that they have the right intent. You know, like their intention is good. 

[00:10:12] Amy Sandler: Yeah.

[00:10:12] Jason Rosoff: And they’re trying to do the right thing. Um, my guess is like, and they don’t give voice to anything to the contrary, so I would tend to believe that their boss is also trying to do the right thing. And so just by saying, you know that’s interesting feedback, I hadn’t thought about it that way before, I’d like to take some time to think about it. That’s a way of acknowledging the effort that your boss put into it.

[00:10:34] And because the thing that I think is hard for everybody who offers criticism to another person is when they feel like the person immediately sort of either brushes it off or gets super defensive and tries to dismiss the feedback. Because as they say in their note, they try to treat feedback like a gift. Um, and I think acknowledging and showing appreciation for the thought and effort that went into the gift is really helpful. 

[00:11:02] Amy Sandler: Yeah. And if we can go a bit further on this one, Jason, because, you know, Kim will often say if you give someone a challenge, expect a challenge back. So if I were to, if you and I were having this conversation and you gave me some feedback and, you know, there was the part that I could focus on and agree on and this other part I’m not sure about. Or I do likely disagree, but I want to get my thoughts together.

[00:11:29] And I share with you, you know, hey Jason, I hear you on this first thing, I’m not sure about the second one. What would you say to me that would show me that you actually welcome it? In other words, what I’m trying to get to is like, for Kim’s concerns about the pocket veto, if there is a power dynamic. What is it that the receiver, in this case, the boss, could do to show that, um, that they’re actually welcoming that in the moment, uh, version of a challenge.

[00:11:58] Jason Rosoff: I think I would say, I want to understand why you perceive this differently than I do. I feel like we’ve had these kinds of con, 

[00:12:07] Amy Sandler: Yeah. 

[00:12:07] Jason Rosoff: You and I have actually had these kinds of conversations where we’re like, hey, we have very different perspectives on this situation. Like, let’s explore why we might have those different perceptions. And I think the if someone told me, like, I want more time, I would, my only response would be like, just let me know when you want to follow up. I’d like, I do want to continue the conversation. I would, I want to get your perspective because my goal in giving you this feedback is to make sure that, uh, that you’re successful.

[00:12:37] And right now I have this perception that what you’re doing is making you less successful. So getting your perspective on it is only going to help me figure out how to either adjust my thinking or adjust my guidance to you so that it’s something you can more easily agree with and that we can work together to do something about.

[00:12:57] Amy Sandler: I think that is so helpful to be explicit on because I think sometimes in these conversations, you know, we’re so often convinced that we are right, or that the goal of the conversation is that, you know, if this manager goes into it thinking that this person is not picking the right things to work on, right?

[00:13:13] Like, if my goal in that conversation is, Amy, you are not picking the right things to work on, rather than it feels like what you’re saying is my goal is, you know, from my perspective, it feels like it would be more helpful for you to be spending your time on project A. You’re spending your time on project B, help me understand why you’re spending your time on project B, right? Like there, to me, it feels like the curiosity is, and connection is job one from what you’re saying. 

[00:13:38] Jason Rosoff: In the impromptu, yeah, I think one thing that I realized that as you started to talk as well, I didn’t distinguish between the difference, I didn’t create a distinction between the impromptu feedback and the review rating feedback. I think you’re exactly right about the impromptu feedback. I think one of the best ways to show that you care about the other person’s perspective when you’re giving them impromptu feedback is to create the explicit opening to the possibility that you are wrong. And so I think what you just said is basically perfect, which is like, this is how I perceive what’s going on.

[00:14:17] I observe that you’re working on A and I think you should be working on B. My guess is there’s a reason why you’re working on B. I’m curious what that reason is and I’d like to have a conversation about it. I think that’s exactly the right way to have that impromptu conversation. 

[00:14:33] Jason Rosoff: I do think that if we look at this particular example, it seems like a person created multiple openings. Now, maybe they didn’t show that they were open to being proven wrong. That’s a possibility, that their boss didn’t show they were open to being proven wrong. Um, and they could have done better in the exact way that you did. Uh, and I would say, like, it doesn’t, it, the way that the note reads, it sounds like they tried multiple times to have the conversation with them, um, and they didn’t hear different or they didn’t say anything to the contrary. Um, and so I think that’s another way that you can show that you’re really interested is to say, hey, you know, I tried to give you this feedback in the past. 

[00:15:17] Maybe this is the second conversation. Um, and, but, and I noticed that it, you continued to work on A when I thought you should be working on B. Um, uh, I’m, like, help me understand what’s going, like, what’s going on there. I think that curiosity remains important. And I think even if you didn’t remember to ask the question, bringing it back up and saying, I think we had this conversation before. Maybe you had another way to do it if you didn’t have the, if you didn’t think it was, you didn’t think it was, another helpful thing to try would be to say, I’m not sure, like, what was it about my feedback that was ineffective. 

[00:15:58] I’ve given you feedback before about other things and you responded really, you know, really well to it. Like, what did I do, what could I do differently in this situation, um, that would make it easier to respond to my feedback?

[00:16:10] Amy Sandler: Yeah. ‘Cause it’s like, I think sharing with someone like, hey, I know you’ve been so responsive on, you know, on your communication style and you did that course or etcetera, etcetera. 

[00:16:18] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. 

[00:16:19] Amy Sandler: For this one, I recommended that you focus on A, still focusing on B. So it sounds like there’s still that, like on the second conversation, maybe checking in. And then at some point, you know, Kim talks a lot about listen, challenge, commit. So do you want to share how that might apply in this, we’ve had a couple of conversations, impromptu conversations on this. 

[00:16:38] Jason Rosoff: Yeah, and I’ll go back to the original, the original note, which we have modified to protect the innocent. Uh, so it might be paraphrasing here, um, uh, that, uh, they say, I don’t want to be penalized for something that I don’t agree with. And I think this is the place where there may be a real disconnect, actually. Like, they may, their perception and their boss’s perception about what should be worked on may, in fact, be different.

[00:17:10] And then the question is, like, whose judgment wins in that situation? Uh, like, I think that they would, the person who wrote the note would be in the position of having to convince their boss that they are, that their boss is wrong. And that they should be working on something different than what the boss thinks that they should be working on. But I think that’s a pretty tough road to hoe, so to speak. Like, I think if your boss is like, convinced that you should be doing something other than what you are doing, like, it’s gonna be hard to convince them otherwise. And they may have really good reasons. that they haven’t explained to you yet.

[00:17:48] So, what I would say to them is like, remain open to the possibility that when you actually get into the disagreement your boss convinces you that you are in fact working on the wrong thing. Uh, that you should be doing something different, uh, than what you’re doing. And that’s the listen, challenge, commit, part of this from, my perspective, is that at some point it is the boss’s responsibility to make sure that the quote unquote right work is happening on the team, like people are working on the right things.

[00:18:21] And if you and your boss have a fundamental disagreement about what the right work is and you can’t convince your boss that you’re correct and they are wrong, part of the boss’s job is to make those calls. And so the boss is going to have to make a call, which is either they agree with you, or they disagree with you. And if they disagree with you and you disagree with them, you are now in the position where you have to commit. 

[00:18:43] You have to, you’ve listened to their point of view, you’ve challenged their perspective. And now you have to make a choice, which is, can I commit to wholeheartedly focusing on the thing that my boss is asking me to do? Or do I feel so strongly about this that I don’t feel like I, this is the right fit for me anymore? Like, I don’t think I can work on a team where my boss would ask me to do this thing that I disagree with. And that’s tough. Uh, that, that’s a tough position to be in. 

[00:19:10] Amy Sandler: Have you ever been in a situation like that, Jason? Just as you’re sharing, I’m curious. 

[00:19:16] Jason Rosoff: Yes, I have. I have to rewind the clock quite, quite a while. Um, but, uh, in the early two thousands, uh, I was in a similar situation that turned out okay. I was able to convince my boss that, um, that they were in fact asking me to work on the wrong thing. But essentially there, there was this, I was working for a company that had been around for quite a while, and there was sort of a way that things were done at that company. Uh, and I was frustrated by that because I saw it as very inefficient. There were things that they were doing that were like, to my mind, were like very obviously inefficient. 

[00:19:52] Now, I was partial, partially this was arrogance on my part. Like, you know, I was young, I was looking at this, like, in a particular way, uh, and so I didn’t approach the situation in the best way possible. And I sort of, I did kind of pocket veto this, because I was like, this is dumb, like, this is stupid, they’re asking me to do something in a stupid way, I’m just gonna do it in the better way. My way, which is obviously the better way. 

[00:20:19] Amy Sandler: Always the better way. I think Frank Sinatra had a song about that. 

[00:20:25] Jason Rosoff: Yes, I think that’s right. And so, I made two mistakes in that moment. One of them was hubris, but the other one was a failure to communicate what was going on. And I also, like, I failed the test of curiosity as to, like, why they would do things in such an inefficient way. And it turns out that while my way was better, there were some edge cases that it didn’t handle. Like, the process that I was using to do the same work that they had been doing. 

[00:20:54] So this was like a bookmaking factory, essentially. The process that I was using, when certain errors occurred, meaning certain mistakes were made, my process didn’t gracefully handle, like, those errors. So I sort of had this assumption in my head that most of the time things go right. And in fact, like five to ten percent of the time, a book would go through the machine and it would be damaged and it would have to be reprinted, so it would have to go all the way back to the beginning of the process.

[00:21:22] And this was just a fact of using these big, heavy machines that could sometimes mangle the paper inside them. Um, and so my boss said, you have to do it this less efficient, less efficient way, in air quotes. Um, because that way when something goes wrong, it’s really easy to like bring the whole process back to the start, you know exactly what’s going on, there’s like, uh, so, anyway, I got into an argument with them. And because I had failed this test of curiosity and I hadn’t learned this thing, I wound up looking foolish that I wasn’t doing things in the way that they had prescribed.

[00:22:00] Um, but I didn’t give up. What I did in that moment was I said, okay, I need to go back and rethink the way that I’m approaching this and see if I can integrate this new knowledge. Because they made a valid point, which was like, the way I was doing it didn’t account for these errors. And I found a way to deal with that and make the process more efficient. Meaning like, I found a way to take a whole bunch of work out of the system. It no longer was the case that a single person had to work the order from beginning to end. Uh, like we could actually have people assigned to specific stations, which allowed them to do, it was so wild, like how much time it took just walking from machine to machine. Like just having the person be able to work at that machine, they felt like I could get so much more work done in a day. So like the people working the line liked my method better, except when there was a problem. 

[00:22:53] Uh, but I was able to, I was able to adjust that. I created, I added a barcode, um, to each of the orders that was sent and I bought scanners for each of the stations and you could like scan the barcode so that anytime there was an error it’s really easy to actually like scan the barcode of the thing and put it back at the beginning of the process. So anybody at any station could now do this as opposed to having to like literally walk it back to the beginning with a piece of paper attached to it. 

[00:23:19] Amy Sandler: But wait a sec, so Jason, did you, so you absorbed the feedback that you disagreed with, you identified the problem. And then rather than going with your original idea and rather than going with theirs, did you create a third new way of doing things with the barcodes?

[00:23:31] Jason Rosoff: I created a third way. Yes Yes. And I went back to my boss and I said you were right, that, like, there was a problem with the way that I was doing this, and I apologize for not being curious enough, for not acknowledging that, um, uh, I said, but I’m also right. That there, there is a better way to do this, and let me show you, let me show you how it could work. Um, and as soon as I showed them how it could work, this third way, how the third way could work, there, they got excited about the possibility. Like the, some of the possibilities that it opened up. Um, and there was a path forward.

[00:24:09] But I think without the disagreement, meaning, like I have one thing that I really, it was hard to receive the feedback that I was doing things the wrong way. I was very defensive when I received it. I sort of ignored the learning. I did all the things, um, but I disagreed publicly. I didn’t privately disagree and keep doing things the way that I, they didn’t want me to. Um, uh, and in fact, I actually went back to doing things the way they asked me to until I figured out a new way to address the concern that they had raised with me. 

[00:24:47] And then I went back to them and said, you know, let me show you my work. What do you think of this? Like, here’s how it can work. I’ll show you with a couple of stations as an example, and they got excited about it. 

[00:24:57] Amy Sandler: Well, Jason, what I love about that story also that you did commit to doing their thing and you committed to getting an even better outcome. So I’m really curious, like, if you can, what was your motivation as you were scheming up that QR code? Like, were you like, I’m going to show them or you’re like, I know there’s a better way. I mean, it sounds like you really just wanted to get to the best outcome. 

[00:25:24] Jason Rosoff: I will admit like that twenty-five year old me was pretty, it was still like arrogance was not an unimportant part of my motivation that I could, I can do this better. Um, so I don’t want to give myself a complete pass. But what I was really motivated by was how frustrated people were, like the people who actually had to do the work were with how efficient, inefficient the process could be. 

[00:25:51] Um, and it was my job, like, uh, I was like an operations manager for this plant. It was part of my job was to like make their lives easier and better. Um, uh, and so I, it’s like partially solved a problem with my first system. Um, and then with my second system, I completely solved a problem. Uh, and honestly, like, other than hubris, I feel like I just enjoy solving puzzles.

[00:26:21] Like, I think I, like, I enjoyed the challenge. Once I understood why I was wrong, like, it sort of reinvigorated my curiosity. And I was like, okay, so I’m wrong about this and until I come up with a better solution, I’m gonna have to do it the way that I disagreed with. and, and that was the arrogance part of it. Uh, and it was like, a combination of those two things. 

[00:26:44] Amy Sandler: But you still committed, you still,

[00:26:47] Jason Rosoff: I did. I absolutely did. And I think if I hadn’t, if I wasn’t willing to do that, um, I think it would’ve been very, I think it would have been very hard for my boss to hear my new idea. I think if I had sort of like, pushed back with no willingness, without a recog. I feel like the commit, committing to doing it the way that we knew worked in all situations, until I found a better solution, was necessary for my boss to hear me when I came back to them with a new solution. Because it demonstrated to them that I was willing to change my mind about something, uh, until I’ve, uh, really came up with like a better idea. I was willing to take their guidance and take their advice until I could show, provably show that there was a better way to do it.

[00:27:51] Amy Sandler: I think it’s such an illustrative story. Um, I know we’re going to get into Q&A in a little bit. I want to just speak now to the, this meeting, this follow up, you got the two out of five, um, and partially to some extent because you hadn’t really been pushing back. I’m speaking to our listener who wrote in with the challenge.

[00:28:13] So what guidance would we want to offer this person to how to follow up now, now that it’s, that it is in a more formal place. You talked about the curiosity and the developmental conversation. Now we’re in the more formal performance cycle. Now what? 

[00:28:29] Jason Rosoff: I think if it was me, my approach would probably start with an apology, which is, I should have come to you with this earlier, um, but I did not. Uh, and it’s really bothering me that I got this low rating because I disagree with a, uh, like an important part of the feedback that’s in here and I want to explain why I disagree.

[00:28:52] Um, that’s how I’m, like, in setting up the conversation, I think you need to take some accountability for that. But before you even get to that point, I think you want to play forward, uh, you want to do better than twenty-six year old me. Uh, and you want to like play this forward a couple of steps and say, what happens if my boss is simply not open to my perspective on this?

[00:29:16] Like what do I do if I get to the, get to the other end of this conversation and I realize that they’re not going to change their mind? So question one is, am I open to changing my mind? Like, could I commit to doing this, doing the thing that they’re asking me to do. 

[00:29:34] Amy Sandler: And so just to be clear for the listener who got a piece of feedback about their decision making process. If my boss says, Amy, work on A versus B, am I really willing to work on A, that sort of thing one. 

[00:29:45] Jason Rosoff: Correct. Yeah. You need to know if you’re willing to make a concess, what would feel to you like a concession about that? Because if the answer to that is no, that you’re unwilling to make a concession there, you’re unwilling to follow their guidance or their perspective on the situation. Then I think you need to be prepared for the fact that this could become like an irreconcilable difference.

[00:30:09] And might mean that you’re looking for another job. And so there’s a couple of things that we often recommend. Um, you know, some people are in big companies, and it’s relatively easy to change jobs. And so you might want to be aware of like, what are the other roles that are available to me, um, in my company if this were not to work out? Or outside the company, maybe you’re looking for, so I came up with, what does she say, find your nearest exit, identify the nearest exit. 

[00:30:36] Amy Sandler: Yes. And also I think like the sort of negotiation version of that is your BATNA, right? Your best alternative to a negotiated agreement, right? So kind of what are your other options, whether internally or externally?

[00:30:48] Jason Rosoff: Correct. Um, you know, maybe to put a finer point on it, maybe you are willing to commit for a period of time to doing the thing that they’re asking you to do. But you’re not willing to commit to it forever. And so that gives you a timeline to work on, uh, right? ‘Cause you say, look, I can do it for three months. Like I can, you know, I can behave in a different way for three months or six months, but that’s it. Then I’m going to be so frustrated that, you know, I’m at, I’m, I don’t want to leave on a sour note. I’d much, you know what I’m saying? Like, I’d much rather leave, um, uh, on the note of like, I have good relationships with my co workers, you know, I’m not miserable and sort of like, dragging down team morale.

[00:31:25] Um, ’cause those are all things that can happen. If you really can’t commit, if you, and you sort of like, grind yourself into dust trying to do a thing that you fundamentally disagree with, there’s a high probability, it’s not a guarantee. But you wind up with a high probability of harming the relationships that you have, not just with your boss, but with the other people on the team. And that makes it much harder to find the next role within the company or, or outside the company. 

[00:31:46] Amy Sandler: Yeah. Great advice. And one thing I could add is also, and we always talk about, you know, if there is a trusted person, colleague at work to maybe practice having that conversation beforehand, right? Some emotion might come up, you want to feel like you’re really clear on what it is that you’re trying to say. So always helpful to get some practice, um, some reps in. So you feel like you’re going into that conversation, um, from a more kind of calm perspective. 

[00:32:14] Jason Rosoff: Yup. And the important thing to remember based on the way that they’ve described this situation is that it seems like your boss is trying to do, it seems like you’re both well intentioned. And so it’s important to like go into it in that spirit, like, hey, like, can we collaborate on a solution? Um, because I think while, like, identifying your exit and having your BATNA prepared and all the other stuff is important to do because you don’t know how it’s going to go. I also don’t think you want to walk into the meeting with, like, you know, it, you know, it’s my way or the highway. Like, either you change your mind about this boss or I’m going to quit, I think that’s unlikely to get you what you want also.

[00:32:53] Um, so just, like, finding, that’s one of the valuable parts of practice is that you can work through, because you might be feeling that level of frustration. I just want to acknowledge like, uh, in my story, when my boss told me you have to do it this way, like I was, you know, I went home that day and I was like, what an idiot. I’m going to quit. 

[00:33:16] Amy Sandler: Yeah. 

[00:33:17] Jason Rosoff: You know what I’m saying? Like, I I had it in my head. Um, uh, but I, uh, I had like just enough self awareness to like have the thought, like, maybe I’m wrong. Like just quietly in the back of my mind. What if you’re wrong about this? Uh, it wasn’t much, but it was there. And I think I, in this situation, I kind of lucked out that I, like, listened to that voice enough that I was able to go back into the conversation with, uh, to think about like an alternative and go back to the conversation with some degree of humility. So I would just encourage this person to do that. It sounds like they would anyway. 

[00:33:55] Amy Sandler: Yeah.

[00:33:55] Jason Rosoff: I think if you’re in a more frustrating situation and you’re not sure that your boss is well intentioned, it’s still valuable to go into that conversation open to the possibility that you’re wrong, even if you think you’re right.

[00:34:09] Amy Sandler: I think that is so, so helpful. And just hearing your story, just to anchor back on that, that you got to this other idea that would not have happened if you had not had that conversation. You know, your boss wouldn’t have thought of it, you wouldn’t have thought of it. Something even better came from this.

[00:34:25] So I think if, you know, both people are good intentioned that there is this other possibility, multiple possibilities, what could be possible? We’ve been talking about A and B, but maybe there’s a C or D that won’t happen unless we come to this conversation in that spirit of curiosity. 

[00:34:42] Jason Rosoff: Yep, I think that’s well said.

[00:34:52] Amy Sandler: Well, in the spirit of curiosity, we would love to, to hear what’s on people’s minds. 

[00:34:57] Jason Rosoff: Yes. 

[00:34:58] Amy Sandler: Have we gotten any, uh, any questions in? I guess I can ask, uh, since it’s Tuesday in Tasmania, I’m curious how Tuesday is looking? Uh, yes. Hello. So this is a question that’s near and dear to our heart, Jason, about the link between psychological safety, the term coined by Amy Edmondson and Radical Candor. Do you want to take a first crack at it? 

[00:35:27] Jason Rosoff: Uh, well first I will say that Amy and, uh, Kim wrote a great piece about this exact thing. And we’ll make sure, um, to share that, uh, with you all. But my, here’s my quick summary, which is a lot of people think that in order, one of the crucial components of psychological safety is trust, is the belief that the people around you have your back.

[00:35:58] Um, um, Brandi’s on top of it and has linked to the, uh, psychological safety article that they co wrote together. The, and there’s a perception that Radical Candor also requires trust, but Amy and Kim make the argument in that piece and have made the argument, uh, many times, uh, to us that Radical Candor is an essential element of trust. Like, in some ways, there’s no way out but through, like you have to be able to be radically candid, uh, you, in order to build trust, you must be radically candid with each other. And this becomes a little bit more obvious when you think about the Radical Candor framework, which is if you’re either in Radical Candor or one of the other quadrants, uh, obnoxious aggression, manipulative insincerity, or ruinous empathy, which of the three other quadrants is it better to be in to build trust?

[00:36:50] And I think a lot of people say, well, can’t ruin us empathy work. Can’t care without challenge work. And I think, um, from channeling Kim, she would say, maybe for a short amount of time it could work but something’s going to go wrong. And the, not challenging the thing that is going wrong is going to lead to resentment, which fundamentally erodes trust. Like, it’s very hard to trust someone you resent. 

[00:37:16] Uh, so I think the linkage is that we need to take small risks with, to be radically candid in order to establish trust. And so the way that I think about that is like often when people are thinking about well doesn’t Radical Candor require trust, they’re thinking about some bad, really bad thing or difficult thing that has come up in either a relationship or at work. Same reason, like, I’m gonna coach you the same way that my batting coach coached me when I played baseball. Which is like, you can’t try for, you can’t swing for a home run every time you get up to bat. Like, you got, like, the best baseball players know how to get a base hit.

[00:37:57] So that’s my recommendation to you. Don’t swing for the fences, don’t pick the hardest thing that you can possibly imagine. The risk you want to take to help build trust in Radical Candor is smaller at first. And so a great way to break the ice is actually to solicit feedback from the other person, right? To get, to solicit Radical Candor from them, um, to remember that Radical Candor, radically candid feedback, uh, or guidance is both praise and criticism. So you can offer some radically candid praise. You can challenge someone to do more of something that they’re already good at. And if you’re going to give criticism, like don’t start with the hardest conversation that you can think about.

[00:38:36] Amy Sandler: Yeah. I love that. And again, just to be clear, Amy Edmondson, Kim Scott, uh, Brandi wrote the piece on Fast Company in the chat and we’ll put it in our show notes. Um, one story that I like to share, uh, speaking of those kind of small deposits in the relationship bank or in the trust bank. I often will say I teach Radical Candor because it holds me accountable to do the thing that really matters to me.

[00:39:02] My tendency would be to fall in ruinous empathy, but because I do care, I do want to tell this person what’s on my mind to be helpful. And, um, we were doing a partnership with Second City, the improvisation group, and, uh, we were working with some improvisers, I was doing a keynote speech, and an improviser, uh, had just come back from the men’s room, and his fly was down. And my first reaction was to kind of look around, and, you know, who’s gonna tell this guy that his fly is down, we’re just about to go on stage. And it’s like, you, you are the one person between him and the audience, A, B, you’re teaching Radical Candor. So I pulled him to the side and, you know, did this privately, which is one way to be more radically candid.

[00:39:48] And I told him, he was an improviser, um, so of course he, he used it as a, in a funny way. But the reason why I love that story is because even before we do this podcast, before we go on stage, we like to say, got your back. And the idea of that is that if you’re doing improv, you’ve got to trust that this other person, if you mess up, or if you say something, they’re going to take the ball.

[00:40:08] If you start talking about aliens in the moon practicing Radical Candor, all of a sudden they’re going to follow that train of thought with you, right? So, um, this idea of got your back, that to me is that psychological safety that I can trust that if I say something, maybe I make a mistake, Jason will sort of gently get me back on track. Um, that we’re going to look out for, we’re going to look out for each other, and for me, that is why, uh, psychological safety and Radical Candor go so much hand in hand.

[00:40:35] Jason Rosoff: Yeah, James asked a good question, is like, is Radical Candor the only model you would use to build psychological safety? And I would say no, I think there are other important things like, uh, like self awareness and emotional intelligence, that are important elements, both to Radical Candor and psychological safety. And so if I was thinking about, you know, I wanna build a psychologically safe organization, um, what are all the pieces that I need? I think Radical Candor is a component. It’s not the on, it’s not the only thing that I would teach. Um, Amy, I don’t know, what do you think? 

[00:41:11] Amy Sandler: Yeah, I mean, the example that’s coming to mind, if it’s Radical Candor or more just about leadership, um, in general, the Alan Mullaly at Ford and really wanting to encourage, um, encourage debate and dissent. Which is talked about in the book Radical Candor, so to be clear we’re talking about feedback in the book by Kim Scott. There’s two other really big pieces, one is, um, you know, how do I develop, uh, more of a culture of Radical Candor through getting stuff done, the get stuff done wheel? How do I make decisions? And another one is how do I grow people, right? Sort of performance, uh, management. How do I get, um, get teams, um, in a way that we’ve got folks that might have high growth potential? How do we support them? People that are more steady growth potential. 

[00:42:03] So I think, so I don’t know, Jason, if you want to build on that idea, if, or if you want to share, you know, the Ford story I’m talking about? 

[00:42:10] Jason Rosoff: Yeah.

[00:42:10] Amy Sandler: Um, of how do we create those kinds of cultures, not just through feedback, but actually organization wide?

[00:42:17] Jason Rosoff: Yeah, to me, like, the crux of this question is exactly right, which is, or like, what’s underneath this question is exactly right, which is what are the components? You know, I think it’s framed as Radical Candor and psychological safety. But like, what are the components to build the kind of culture that you want, and like, how do you actually accomplish that? Like, uh, and I think, uh, it, makes me think of another podcast topic around rituals that we had recently. 

[00:42:45] Amy Sandler: Yeah.

[00:42:45] Jason Rosoff: ‘Cause it, there, there’s like, there, there’s sort of the principles of the organization. And I think Radical Candor is a really valuable principle to have. Which is like, this is how we’re going to treat each other in discussion. So the framework is sort of a guide, uh, to how to treat one another. Um, you might have another principle, uh, you know, depending on the type of company that you are, um, like it’s often really valuable to have a principle around sort of like ethical and equitable treatment, right?

[00:43:13] So Radical Candor is how you talk about it, but like there’s a base, a bedrock principle of respect, um, for one another. Uh, but then you need process that reflects that. So what you’re talking about, Amy, which is like the, uh, Kim’s, uh, getting stuff done wheel is a process that embodies those principles to help the work of the organization get done.

[00:43:36] And then the last thing I think you need are sort of like rituals or habits that reinforce the principles, uh, on a regular basis. I actually was just writing a LinkedIn post, uh, about one of the rituals that we used at Khan Academy, because one of our, one of our values was sort of keep learning, like we had, we said anyone can learn anything. It was like one of the values of the organization. 

[00:44:00] One of the rituals that we had was, when we had teams, uh, talk about what they had done, we had them not only talk about the success that they had. But explicitly asked every team to talk about what were the most important things you learned while doing this project. And that meant that even a project that failed, there was a reason for them to present in front of the company and a reason to take pride in what they’d done. Because the goal, like in that failed project, they failed to achieve the initial objective of the project. But they learned something valuable along the way, and the ritual was to share that learning.

[00:44:34] It was less about celebrating the success, that was important and valuable, but that wasn’t essential. What was essential was learning. Um, and so that’s like a small, it wasn’t so much a formal process. But it was a ritual that we repeated over and over and over again, which is like teams talked about what they learned. And so those things matter. 

[00:44:54] We had a fun version of that also, which is we had an annual talent show and we encourage people to showcase new talents. Um, so something that you had learned specifically for the talent show. Uh, and so people, like, would come and, like, showcase their, you know, their three months of ukulele lessons. Um, uh, and we would cheer, like, everybody would cheer them on because it was like, the point was not to be, you know, the best, the best ukulele player, but to, like, actually try something new and learn something new. 

[00:45:22] Amy Sandler: Yeah.

[00:45:22] Jason Rosoff: So those are two ways that we sort of ritualized this, the principle of, uh, you know, keep learning or everyone can learn, anyone can learn anything. 

[00:45:29] Amy Sandler: Well, I love that and I think it really dovetails with the psychological safety conversation, right? What was on my mind with the Alan Mullaly, and I’ll bring it in if I miss, misquoted a little bit. But he was a new CEO at Ford and would be running meetings with his leadership team. And they would keep, be bringing in this dashboard and everyone was hitting their numbers and everything was green and everything looked so rosy. And then I think he said something like, you know, I need to, this cannot be the picture, why are we losing money? 

[00:45:58] And so it was really about showing like, challenging everyone to bring in a dashboard where there were some losses there, some oranges instead of green. Um, and that was really this culture, you know, and we talk about that with Radical Candor, the mistakes that we’ve made as individuals. Or I can imagine after three months of practicing the ukulele, I would still not be a great ukulele player.

[00:46:21] So I think just that ritual of being willing to, um, kind of name publicly our mistakes and learn from them, especially if we have some power there. Um, metaphors, uh, James, thank you. And well, James is asking about metaphors for Radical Candor. I also want to just acknowledge a note that Rick had for Jason of loving the example of the, that the resistance feedback in private versus public. So we will often talk about criticize, um, in private, praise in public, uh, to show folks what good looks like. Also praise, um, in private to build the relationship.

[00:46:57] But one metaphor, um, James, that I like to use is that praise is like putting your foot on the gas and criticism is like putting your foot on the brake. And we’re not going to go very far if our foot is on the brake very often. And I think it’s hard, you know especially when we’re smart or we’re in a role where it’s all about kind of being, um, critical thinking that we will often look at what’s not working well rather than what is working well. So I like that sort of, uh, gas, uh, break and accelerator metaphor. Any other ones pop to mind, Jason? 

[00:47:34] Jason Rosoff: Uh, the one that pops to mind is the one that Kim uses all the time, which is like radically candid, uh, guidance or feedback is like brushing and flossing. It’s this thing that you do all the time so that you avoid the root canal. The, uh, you avoid dental surgery by practicing Radical Candor. The whole idea of like, address small things because, before they become big things, um, like it matters for both things that are going well and things that could be better. Um, like pointing out, it’s much easier, because I remember like, uh, you know, many organizations, even ones where I was a part of the leadership of that organization, I could often focus on like, you know, big wins. And it’s sort of, it’s actually kind of hard to take the big win and turn that into a future success.

[00:48:22] What I found so much more helpful is like when people would point out specific things. Smaller things that I had done inside the big win that act that they felt particularly useful or effective. Um, so it wasn’t so much like, you know, you manage that project, you know, really effectively and we got the result that we wanted, even though that sort of follows context, observation, result. It was more like, um, you know, the system you set up to track small issues on that project made a big difference in the quality of the out, of the software that we released. And we’d love to see that continue in the future. Could you teach other teams how to use, you know, uh, that tool? 

[00:49:02] Amy Sandler: Yes, and I think that goes along really well with the feedback we had for the listener question, which is that if there had been, you know, more of that back and forth brushing and flossing, um, that maybe we could have potentially, um, you know, gotten ahead of that rating.

[00:49:17] Jason Rosoff: Yep. 

[00:49:17] Amy Sandler: And then there’s a question and then we’ll probably wrap up for tips. The question is, do, uh, do we find that people fall into, um, one quadrant or another more frequently? Uh, I have found, Kim has talked about this and I think at least the data that we see in the workshops that we run, when we ask people the mistake that people typically make. Um, the most often mistake that we find is ruinous empathy, you know, that sort of high care, low challenge. 

[00:49:46] What’s really interesting is that there’s a couple other ways to ask that question. One way to ask that question is, what mistake do you make when you’re feeling really stressed or under a deadline, etcetera, because I’m going to answer that question differently. I’m going to land more likely in obnoxious aggression, um, that sort of high challenge, low care, uh, if I’m feeling under, under pressure, um, different people will answer it differently. Um, but the reason why I think this question is so interesting is because we will then ask folks, what mistake quadrant do people typically experience at work?

[00:50:19] So not what the mistake that you make, but what are you experiencing? And again, these are all subjective perspectives. Um, but I’m going to, um, invite people to just think about it. What do you think the top answer would be? And typically, we’ll still see some ruinous empathy, but we will see far more manipulative insincerity. That’s where people, they’re not caring, they’re not challenging. It’s kind of the meeting after the meeting, um, talking about people, not to them. And, uh, I’ll often ask people why they think this might be the case. So I’ll turn it over to you, Jason, um, to, uh, to share, you know, why we think that happened. 

[00:50:55] Jason Rosoff: I’m an eternal optimist and I tend to believe that it’s not because they’re wrong and there is actually more manipulative insincerity. It’s because we tend to judge other people’s actions based on our sort of like worst fears about what they’re doing. Um, and our own actions based on the best possible interpretation of our motives. Um, I think that’s a huge contributing factor. 

[00:51:18] So someone’s silence, because ruinous empathy often translates into inaction. Someone’s silence is very easy, I think, to imagine that they’re doing that because they don’t like you. Even though the thing that motivated them might actually be their deep care for you, because they were afraid to have that conversation with you. Because they were worried about how it was going to, about harming you, negatively affecting you.

[00:51:43] But it’s really easy to see why on the receiving end, I don’t know, what does that silence mean? What does the fact that you didn’t tell me about my fly being down mean about how you feel about me? I think it’s easy to interpret that as a manipulative insincerity. On the darker side of things, I do think that, you can go back millennia. This is not new behavior, human beings love to gossip. It is like an essential part of like human relationship. Uh, we love to gossip and gossip falls into the manipulative insincerity bucket. And so if you’re gossiping about people, right? If you’re, you know, venting about someone after a meeting is over, you just assume that everybody else is doing it. And so that, I think that also leads to the perception that there’s, you know, more manipulative insincerity going on. 

[00:52:33] Amy Sandler: Yeah. So well said, you know, for those of us who are into fancy terms, that sort of fundamental attribution error, right? Like I know I’m not saying it ’cause I’m so nice, but this person isn’t doing it because of X, Y, Z.

[00:52:46] You know, the other reason why I think it’s really helpful, and to note that we all make these mistakes all the time, is because if I am not, very often, when I think about my motivations for something. This is why self awareness, emotional awareness, why these things are so important for practice. Maybe I’m not saying something because I don’t want to hurt Jason’s feelings, that would be ruinous empathy. But maybe I’m not saying something because I’m worried about what he’s going to say back to me. 

[00:53:15] Or I don’t want conflict, or I don’t want to be the bad guy or the people pleasing part of me, or I just don’t have the energy, etcetera. And that might be the manipulative insincerity part of it. So I think what’s so fascinating and why I think this framework is so, um, helpful is because both of those things can be happening at the same time. And I think it, it really does force us to look at kind of what’s underneath the surface, um, in that conversation, Jason, that you had with your boss and sort of all of those thought bubbles that are happening. 

[00:53:44] And with our listener question, like what was on the boss’s mind, what was, you know, for the listener, why didn’t they push back? Did they feel safe to push back in the moment? Are they feeling maybe, um, the hubris around the decision making process. Or maybe they feel nervous. Like maybe I’m not as good at this, you know, we don’t really know. And so again, I think just that, that kind of grace for each of us on our journey of Radical Candor. 

[00:54:06] Jason Rosoff: I love that. Is it time for our tips? 

[00:54:09] Amy Sandler: I think it’s time for our tips. So this is our Radical Candor checklist, and we’ve got some tips that you can use to start putting Radical Candor into practice right now. Jason, you want to kick us off? 

[00:54:23] Jason Rosoff: Sure. Tip number one. Tip the first. Listen and confirm. When you get impromptu feedback, repeat back what you’ve heard to ensure you understand. So this is going back to like, if you respond in the moment. 

[00:54:36] Next, give yourself some time to process the feedback. It’s perfectly okay to ask someone to reflect before responding, especially if you feel defensive or you start to think that you disagree with what they’re saying. Giving yourself some time to process it and find the parts that you agree with is really, really helpful so that you can disagree more effectively. You want to acknowledge the feedback in the moment and let them know that you will follow up soon. And when you’re ready, schedule a meeting. I think that’s one of the best things that you can do.

[00:55:04] If you get feedback that you disagree with and you say you’re going to follow up, I would ping the person like right after that conversation or very soon after to actually schedule a time, like get on their calendar, show your commitment to following up. 

[00:55:16] Amy Sandler: Tip number two. Identify what you want to say in this meeting that you’ve scheduled. So first of all, if you have not expressed a challenge that you had, as Jason shared, apologize for not being fully candid. Um, acknowledging what the person shared that you appreciate their, uh, they’re sharing their feedback with you and really being explicit about that five to ten percent that you do agree with.

[00:55:43] So for example, I hear you on my ability to communicate more succinctly, I’ve been working on it X, Y, Z. And I’m sorry that I didn’t in that moment share with you, uh, a dis, a disagreement or a different perspective that I had on the decision making part. So really making a note of what you want to say.

[00:56:02] And I strongly encourage if you’re someone like me, who it’s very helpful to write down what you want to say, to practice what you want to say. So you really can get very clear and be as succinct, um, as possible in that conversation so that, you know, in any conversation, it’s so often we think that we are being clear, how is what you’re saying landing and try that out with someone else to see if what you’re intending to communicate is really landing that way.

[00:56:27] Jason Rosoff: And tip number three. Commit to a course of action. So either you come to some kind of agreement about the feedback, even if you don’t come to a complete agreement, that you don’t see sort of like, uh, you’re not perfectly lockstep, you come to some kind of agreement. And you identify a path forward, how you are going to work to address the concerns that, um, your boss has raised, uh, or your colleague has raised.

[00:56:53] Um, taking that sort of collaborative approach, uh, not only resolves the current issue, but can really strengthen the relationship. And, uh, like finding that, the sort of third way, maybe it’s not exactly what they thought or exactly what you thought, but finding that third way, uh, can really help to strengthen the relationship with the person who has provided you the feedback.

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Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer.

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