Returning to the Office & Remembering Why We Left 7 | 18

Episode at a Glance: Returning to the Office 

Radical Candor Podcast Checklist: Returning to the Office

Radical Candor Podcast Resources: Returning to the Office

• Cockroaches And Working In A Closet: Inside Trump’s Return-To-Office Order | Reuters
• No Toilet Paper And No Privacy: Returning To The Office, Federal Workers Walk Into Chaos | The New York Times
• Return To Office. Not Sure What To Do, A Bit Stressed. : R/Fednews
• What Happened At Your Org After They Implemented Their Return To Work Policy? : R/Jobs
• The Official List Of Every Company’s Back-To-Office Strategy | Hubble
• Federal Workers Ordered Back To Office Find Shortages Of Desks, Wi-Fi And Toilet Paper
• Does Returning To The Office Support Your Company’s Strategy? | HBR
• How To Get Return To Office Right | McKinsey
• RTO Mandate Trends In 2025: Why Forcing Employees Back To The Office Hurts Business | Hub Staff
• New Research Suggests Remote Jobs Are Best For Company’s Bottom Line | Forbes
• The Strength Of Weak Ties | Stanford Report

The TLDR Radical Candor Podcast Transcript: Returning to the Office

[00:00:00] Jason Rosoff: Hello everybody and welcome to the Radical Candor Podcast. I’m Jason Rosoff. 

[00:00:07] Amy Sandler: I’m Amy Sandler. And today we’re talking about a topic that is on everyone’s mind, and for some people is becoming their nightmare, which is return to office policies. When do they work? When do they do more harm than good? So let’s, let’s dive in. And I wanted to bring a little bit of data before we start talking from our own perspectives. This is, there’s a recent McKinsey piece called How to Get Return to Office Right. And we’ll put that in the show notes. And what they noted, they did some surveys in 2023 and 2024, and the article noted that there was a significant increase in employees working mostly in person, from 35% in 2023 to 68% in 2024. And so just against that backdrop, we’ve also got lots of stories. And again, we’ll put some articles in the show notes. We’ve, we’ve heard stories, you know, I’m sure you’ve seen in the news, organizations where people are coming back to the office, uh, don’t have a desk for you or a meeting room or even, or even Wifi. Uh, they’re folks who are driving hours and they find that there is no, uh, toilet paper in their office. And so, just at a high level, Jason, this doesn’t seem like it’s super productive or profitable for, for companies in terms of setting people up for success. 

[00:01:28] Jason Rosoff: Here’s the thing, like I wanna say off the top, like I, I have a strong bias against forcing people to work together in an office. Radical Candor is founded as a fully remote company, has been remote from day one, and I feel like it has presents its own set of challenges. Uh, but there are challenges to working together in an office also, and I feel like the, the benefits greatly outweigh, uh, the costs of being able to, to, to work remotely. So I’m, I, I am biased. I, that, that is my, that is my perspective. Um, 

[00:02:04] Amy Sandler: Jason, I’m curious ’cause we’ll get into some specific examples, but just building on the Radical Candor example, how much of our ability, when you say founded as a remote company, like how much of that is, is size and complexity, um, part of the picture? So is there ever a number at which you might change your, your philosophy on being remote first? 

[00:02:27] Jason Rosoff: I don’t think so. And that’s because I tend to believe that talent is, is very evenly distributed geographically. And the uh, and that I have a combination of, of compassion and awareness that there are very good reasons why people might need to stay wherever they are. And so from my perspective, like, the, the reason would have to be incredibly compelling because it’s going to make it much harder for us to hire great people. So, and, and hiring is one of the most expensive things that any organization does. It’s extra expensive for small organizations because, you know, in a small organization you don’t have recruiters, you don’t have, uh, you, you know what I’m saying? Like, you don’t have all of these resources available to you in order to, you know, generate a pipeline of candidates, let alone interview them. 

[00:03:21] So when you spend your time doing that, it means you’re not doing something else. I think as you grow, there’s actually, it, it’s easier to envision the co-locating everybody in a physical, uh, space. And especially if you grow large enough that you could have multiple spaces where, you know, like you, you might have something in, in the Bay Area and you might have something in LA and you might have something in, uh, Toledo. Like, like there, there’s, I could imagine a world in which you have offices, uh, around the country and it’s easier to justify that. So, but that to me does not make it strategically valuable necessarily to force everybody into the office. ‘Cause there’s a bunch of things that come along with forcing people to work in the office. 

[00:04:09] And the biggest one is commuting time. And from my perspective, like in many cases, because the United States is designed around car travel and not around mass transit, that means you lose like one to two hours a day of productive time. Because you can’t do anything else beside drive your car. I mean, you can, I remember when I was commuting to work, uh, in New York when I was, when I lived there, um, and I was commuting down, uh, if anybody’s familiar, uh, down Route 9 and Route 9A, which is like, goes right down the Hudson River. So it’s actually quite beautiful. I remember like. I would look across at people commuting alongside me and there’d be, uh, 

[00:04:51] Amy Sandler: Is there, is there makeup being put on? 

[00:04:53] Jason Rosoff: Oh, yeah. Women, women putting, putting on like eyeliner and mascara and stuff like while driving. I remember seeing, uh, a guy with a newspaper spread fully out across his steering wheel. Um, I saw a person reading a novel, like one of those like 400 pagers, like had it held in his hand. Um, on the one hand it was like terrifying. And the other hand, after I did it for five years, I understood like it was like that this time feels so wasted that I’m, that I’m in the, that I’m between home and, and work. Like there’s no, there’s no benefit, uh, to be gained during that time. And, and I think like, and when you add, when you add to that the, like housing shortages that we have all over the, all over the country. Now you have like a real, like, you have like a, a massive logistical problem that essentially companies are saying, ah, you know, that our employees can suck it up. Like that’s, that’s a cost that they have to bear. We, we don’t care how they pay it. 

[00:05:50] Amy Sandler: It’s, I think it’s a great point, Jason, and, and mindful that we’ve got listeners around the world, some folks who might have great public transit systems or trains or actually bike to work. Um, I’m living in Los Angeles so that I am not putting myself in that category. Uh, a lot of individual, uh, and I, I and I had a job where I did actually have a very long commute, and not just the time of the commute, but actually like the, the, the, the physical toll and the energy of, of that drive, which was, you know, took, it definitely took a, a, some stress. So, so for the most part, net net that time is a negative. But just aware that for some folks, maybe it’s a 20 minute train ride and that’s their time when they catch up on the newspaper or it’s their bike and their, their exercise. So there’s a world where for some people, but I suspect to your point, like the majority, it’s, it’s a net negative. 

[00:06:41] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. Most of the arguments in favor of getting people to come to the office fall into one of two categories. One is, uh, people are more productive when they’re in the office than they are when, when they’re at home. And I do believe that there’s probably some data to support that somewhere. Like there, there’s some types of jobs where it’s very hard to, to, to stay productive, uh, at home. But I don’t believe that, that, that, that there is solid data that, that like translates into results. Uh, we were talking right before we started the recording and Brandi was saying like that we couldn’t locate anything that said, oh, companies who force people to work together in the office are somehow more profitable than their counterparts that allow people to, to to work remotely. So we don’t, we don’t have like, outcome data, um, for that. 

[00:07:38] Amy Sandler: Yeah. And there are some, some jobs, like in the McKinsey research, they noted that healthcare systems and services jumped to 73% in person, advanced industries like manufacturing, aerospace, and defense automakers, uh, we’re up from 42% to 73%. I mean, there’s, there’s certainly roles that for some folks manufacturing like you, you, you physically have to, to be there. 

[00:08:01] Jason Rosoff: Absolutely. And I, so, so like the productivity is, is, is like one, one angle. And then the other angle that I’ve heard quite a lot of people talk about is, uh, like innovation. Like it’s hard to like be creative and collaborate effectively. It’s not so much about efficiency of like the work getting done, but of, uh, but instead of, it’s, it’s an argument that’s being, that’s around creativity. Like creativity is something, is fostered by being together in person. And I think that that is, uh, there’s some truth to, you know, like energetically, like it’s different to collaborate or brainstorm in person. And so I don’t think that either of those reasons are necessarily bad, but if those are your reasons, then why would you send people to an office with no Wifi and no toilet paper? That it just, you know what I’m saying? Like it just doesn’t hold water for, you know, potentially dangerous, 

[00:09:04] Amy Sandler: Sorry, literally. Sorry. I couldn’t help myself. 

[00:09:10] Jason Rosoff: Uh, that’s the part that doesn’t make any sense. So like, if your goal is to foster innovation, like a big part of creating, uh, an environment that, uh, is generative that helps people to be more innovative is, is about meeting people, like, starts with meeting people’s basic needs. Like, you know, like, like food and, and, and sanitary needs and stuff like that. Like you can’t be creative if you’re like, I don’t know where I’m gonna go to the bathroom this afternoon. That, that is a, that is too stressful. Beyond that, you need to make them feel, uh, psychologically safe. 

[00:09:44] And I think that that’s the other side of this is like when you send someone into an office where you know, there’s, they’re not, they don’t have all the tools that they need to do their job. What are they supposed to take away from that? Like that to me seems to be a very strong signal that you, you are not important. Your success is not important. Um, and I, I have to imagine that that, uh, does nothing good for psychological safety. So like, innovation is sort of out the window. And then efficiency is also also out the window. You know, if you, if you can’t, you don’t have, you don’t have Wifi and you don’t have to like go down to the cafe around the corner to like do your email, like how is that possibly efficient? 

[00:10:27] Amy Sandler: Yeah. And sort of the unintended consequences. One of the things we were talking about before we started recording Jason was how, you know, we’re recording this April, 2025. So many companies have sort of asked and answered this question. They, they have already been implementing it and so one of the things that was on my mind was speaking to folks who may either be presented with a change, maybe their company has, uh, made a change in the last year or two, or they have been going day to day with this new change.

[00:11:00] And there might be some kind of bubbling resentment, uh, that has not been stated because of a decision that was made. They felt like they didn’t have a lot of control over. So I wanted to shift the conversation maybe into both some practical tactical tips for how people can have some of these conversations, either about a new change or about an existing change that we feel like we never really were heard or we’re not set up for success, et cetera. How, how does that sound as a, as a direction? 

[00:11:28] Jason Rosoff: Let’s do it. 

[00:11:29] Amy Sandler: Okay. So interestingly, uh, Brandi had the, the topic and I, uh, I think we all probably have various, uh, our own personal experience with this topic and I, I had recently had a conversation with a friend who was in a situation where they had been hired in a remote role and really loved the, like, that was a top priority for them, was actually having a remote role. That was one of the top reasons why they, they chose that job. They have a dog, you know, they really, uh, appreciate that, that, that benefit of working remote. And the, the company, they work for a larger company and learned that we are all going back to five days a week, no sort of ifs, ands, or buts. It’s five days a week.

[00:12:16] We’re all going back to an office, and I think there’s different locations and so there might be a bit more of a spread rollout, but I guess, what advice might you have first of all, for this person who, you know, I signed up for, for remote, now you’re, it’s a new job, but they really like the job, but then also like, what about for their manager who didn’t really have a say in the decision, but how can that manager best guide this person in a way that’s helpful given potentially their seeming lack of control over the change?

[00:12:49] Jason Rosoff: So I, I’ve thought about this because, uh, you know, we’re recording this in, in, in April, 2025. And, you know, there’s a lot of uncertainty in the world at, at the moment. Uh, and I, I’ve, I have thought about this from the context of like, you know, Radical Candor’s business, uh, could be, you know, really negatively affected, uh, in some way by, uh, you know, economic uncertainty or something like that. Um, and I was like, you know what, uh, what if, uh, and this is sort of my, you know, has sort of been my, my dream job. Like, I get to, you know, I’m getting to build this company and work with fabulous people. 

[00:13:32] Um, uh, and do this remotely. Like it has everything that I want. But I was like, you know, what if, what if, you know, what, what if Radical Candor did didn’t make it through, through this recession? Um, and what I realized for myself is like, so what I, what I hold steady and say remote is a must. Like I must have a remote gig in my next, uh, in my next job. And what I realized is like as much as I really value that, if things were that, things would have to be so bad for that to actually happen that I would be very squarely in survival mode and I’d be like, I would do what, what it took. 

[00:14:12] Amy Sandler: It’s almost like Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs. We’re like, okay, we’ve got, like, we’re paying the bills and life is pretty good. Now I can worry about sort of the net adds versus I need a, a paycheck if I’m hearing you right. 

[00:14:24] Jason Rosoff: Exactly. And so I, I was like, uh, and be because like we’re, you know, we’re, and just to be clear, like we’re optimistic, like we think there’s an opportunity for,

[00:14:38] Amy Sandler: Thank you for saying that. I was like, please just say, this is sort of just a wild scenario. 

[00:14:44] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. Uh, uh, like we, we believe there’s plenty of opportunity for Radical Candor, the company and the idea to continue to grow. Uh, even in the face of this uncertainty, in some ways Radical Candor becomes more important in the face of uncertainty. Uh, and so I, I, I don’t think this is going to happen, but what I was realizing, um, as, as I was looking, as I was preparing for this podcast is like, I think I was trying to like, put myself in this frame of mind. Like what would it take? And I do think it would take some shakeup that was, that really like put me or my family at risk to wanna go back to the office.

[00:15:23] So I really sympathize with, with this person of feeling like, you know, a rug has been pulled out from under them, because that’s not the case right now, right? It’s not like the company’s saying, look, we’re in dire financial straits and the, there’s some extra costs that we’re bearing because everybody’s remote, and then we need to bring everybody together. Um, it’s not like, uh, or, you know, we, we simply can’t, we’re too inefficient, and this is the only way we can imagine becoming more efficient. Like, it doesn’t sound like those are the arguments that are being made. It’s more of like a get your butts back into the office. 

[00:15:58] Amy Sandler: I think that’s part of it’s, yeah, there, I think had, had there been like a clear articulation of how we, sort of, the process by which we went through to arrive at this and these are the clear, you know, productivity gains that we’re expecting. Uh, but I don’t think that was as, as clearly communicated. 

[00:16:13] Jason Rosoff: Right. So I think this is like the, the, so, so like part of this is like, are you in survival mode or not? Because I think like if, if you’re in survival mode, I think you do what you have to do to meet the moment. And that doesn’t mean necessarily not looking for, uh, another remote job, but like from my perspective, if I was in this person’s position, I wouldn’t quit this job. Like I, if it was possible for me to go to the office, like I would be looking for another remote job starting today. Like that, that’s what I would be doing, is I, I would be job hunting starting right, right this minute. And for two reasons. One, because there it’s no longer a remote job. And that was very important to me.

[00:16:51] And two, because the way that this decision was made, I feel like is an ill omen for how this company is being, uh, is, is being run. Um, and so both of those things would make me wanna look for another job. But I wouldn’t give up the job that I have in order to do that. So I probably, if I was literally in their position, I’d be willing to like figure out a way to make the sacrifice to stay in that job until I could find something else. Uh, and as I’m looking for other things, I would prioritize remote work, but the process of looking for something else is also really useful ’cause sometimes you get a perspective that like, hey, the grass is actually greener.

[00:17:25] Amy Sandler: Oh hey, like, things, things are pretty good. 

[00:17:29] Jason Rosoff: So like that, that, that’s probably like step one, is if you believe that, you know, the remote work is, is important to you, even though if you’re frustrated, I would try to find a way to make it work and say, and then we can answer the question about how to talk to your manager about like what might make it work.

[00:17:52] Amy Sandler: And it sounds like step zero is actually even like, are we in sort of an existential moment, both for myself with my career and then sort of the more macro stuff which might feel uncertain, but is certainly important to look at in your, in your calculation. 

[00:18:08] Jason Rosoff: Yeah, ’cause I think if you get yourself into a situation where life feels unmanageable for any number of reasons, uh, it’s going to make even a good job, feel bad. You know, like even if it’s like objectively, like if I like the people that I’m working with and I’m making enough money, but like now life is unsustainable ’cause I’m commuting at two hours a day and it’s always stressful ’cause there’s no one to take care of my dog. And like, you know what I’m saying? Like, all these things can, can add up. So you, I think that’s the first thing is like, is it livable? Like is it, is it, uh, essential for my, for, for, for my, you know, base level of happiness? Uh, it, it, to be remote or could I try to, to be back in the office? Could I give myself the time, uh, assuming that, you know, I, I can’t afford to quit right now, which I don’t think most people can afford to quit their jobs at the moment. Um, can I give myself the time to like, explore other options that, that would be like my, my sort of step zero, step one.

[00:19:17] Amy Sandler: And Jason, you know, as you’re sharing that ,what’s coming up is, you know, people have been through so much the past few years with adjusting to the pandemic and the uncertainty there. And one of the pieces of, of research that they talked about in, in McKinsey was around, was around burnout. And this idea like, were there differences, burnout between remote and in-person workers? And interestingly that number was pretty similar between remote and in-person, and they were saying about a third of people feeling burned out, whereas hybrid workers, they said about a quarter felt burned out, which I thought was, was interesting. And what they were sharing in the article was that when you go physically back to the office, like your job isn’t just about your individual tasks in an office people might be more likely to stop by your office. 

[00:20:06] There might be, you know, more of those sort of spontaneous or serendipitous interaction, which could get to more productive outcomes, but also could be more work. Like you might just feel like if you’re someone, especially someone maybe who’s more introverted and actually part of why, why they like working from home is they’re like, I just, I just wanna do the work. I don’t really wanna do the office, uh, water cooler chat, which, Brandi, I won’t speak for you as our, uh, producer, but I think you’re in that category. Like, that feels like a net negative for someone versus someone else who might actually be like, oh, there, you know what, I, I, I, I don’t want the commute, but it actually would be kind of cool to have some more in-person time.

[00:20:45] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. I, so I, I think this is, uh, I heard this describe, I, I, I’ll, I’ll see if I can find a link to, to an article or something that describes this, but I heard, uh, I remember reading something maybe like last year, which is essentially about this idea of weak ties. Um, that human beings, like, we can’t have that many meaningful relationships. You know, there’s a handful of meaningful relationships that we can maintain at any given time, but that human beings require, like, there’s a need, an underlying need for most people to have these sort of like weak ties to a fair number of people. And, and there’s a, there’s correlation between, you know, more of these weak ties actually make people feel better about whatever it is that, that, that they’re, uh, that they’re doing. And the way that they described it is like, Amy, you, you always tell us about your barista at, uh, 

[00:21:37] Amy Sandler: I literally was thinking of Starbucks when you were saying that. 

[00:21:40] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. Yeah. But that’s, that’s a great example, which is like, you’re not friends, you’re not like hanging out on the, on the weekend or something like that. Um, but you, there’s a, there’s a connection there. Like you care about each other. You demonstrate that care in some, in some way. 

[00:21:55] Amy Sandler: They put little hearts on my, on my cup next to my name. 

[00:21:58] Jason Rosoff: They put little hearts on, on your cup. Um, uh, I, speaking of which, a slight detour, a friend of mine from Khan Academy days, his name is Bilal. Um, and as you might imagine, that is not a name that often gets written correctly on a Starbucks cup. And he took a pic, he posted a picture on Instagram of a cup that said Blob on it. They put BLOB as, as his name. And uh, he, he’s, he’s like such a chill dude. He was like, Hey, any, any name with a B and an L in it, I will accept on my, on my Starbucks cup. 

[00:22:36] Amy Sandler: Oh my, I don’t think I’m ever gonna look at my cup again. My cup overflows from that story. Thank you Jason. So the back to the weak ties before I derailed us with the blobs and hearts.

[00:22:47] Jason Rosoff: Yeah, so, so this idea of, you know, you see the same people when you’re walking your dog and you say hi to those people, um, that for some people, maybe you don’t have a dog and you don’t drink coffee, and now all of a sudden you’re living in a world that feels very isolated because you don’t have any of these sort of like weak ties. And, and for those people, even if you’re introverted, the value of someone stopping by your office to say like, hey, Jason, like, how you doing? You know what I’m saying? Like that, that sort of interaction is very important for like, for a healthy psyche. Um, and so the return to the office, I think can present, uh, a real opportunity. And I think that’s why, as much as there are many people who feel quite frustrated about return to the office, I think there is, I think there are some recognition that there’s an element of that, but it’s not about efficiency and it’s not about creativity. 

[00:23:41] Amy Sandler: Let’s call it what it actually is. 

[00:23:43] Jason Rosoff: Right. It’s about like, it’s about sort of like, it can help meet this very basic human need, which is like to, to know that other people like actually give a crap about you and you’re not alone, um, in, in, in the world. And I do think that there are other ways to accomplish that. And I, I think one of the things about remote work is because we rely so much on these casual interactions to provide these things, right? I’m literally walking past you on the street and I like, recognize your dog. And I’m like, hey, you’re, you know, you’re so and so’s mom. 

[00:24:13] Amy Sandler: Ched the beagle. 

[00:24:14] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. 

[00:24:15] Amy Sandler: I have a new friend. Hi Cheddar. 

[00:24:19] Jason Rosoff: Uh, like that that, that that’s quite important. And we didn’t really do enough to help foster those types of, um, those types of interactions in a remote world, it’s sort of a little bit more complicated to figure out how to do that. Um, and if you add on top of that, that people didn’t have good hygiene for one-on-one conversations, now it can feel like you’re sort of like literally alone. You know what I’m saying? And there’s, a subset of population,

[00:24:46] Amy Sandler: Wait, wait, can I just, can you clarify what you mean by hygiene? ‘Cause I think people are now thinking of like, were they not wearing, like they were wearing soft pants? Like just, you’re talking about like frequency, not literal hygiene.

[00:24:57] Jason Rosoff: Correct. Frequency of of, of like one-on-one conversations or like creating a space for social interactions on the team. As opposed to making everything about like, we gotta get through this, you know, agenda. And everything has to be like, because we weren’t used to that, for a lot of people, that transition felt incredibly difficult and sort of upsetting in, in some way. Like, um, uh, and so like there, there’s some good to be had from like the, the, the weak tie part of like being back, uh, in an office setting. But for me personally, like I, some of that is good, uh, but it’s also really hard for me to like get work done when I am, there are like moments when that interruption, there’s no, like the cost of the interruption is so much higher than the benefit of the social interaction, that it’s sort of like almost hard to justify ever allowing it to happen. Um, 

[00:26:04] Amy Sandler: Yeah, I, I have an idea of what you’re talking about. I’m assuming you’re like just knee deep into like some project and then some, oh, hey Jason. Like, where’d you get the sweater? Like, is there an example of when that’s, is it just pulling you out of your current thinking process? 

[00:26:19] Jason Rosoff: Yeah, like there, I, I, I could, I speak specifically about like, you know, maybe I’m writing a piece of code and like in my head I’ve like loaded up all this context, not of only like literally what I’m typing into the computer, but like how the system works and how what I’m doing is connected to something else. And like, I just read a piece of documentation that describes in detail like what I’m supposed to, the way I’m supposed to approach a particular problem. And someone pops their head in and was like, hey. And then I’m like, oh, like, and, and, and I’m not mad. 

[00:26:50] Like I, like, here’s the interesting thing for, for me, because I value like the, those, the connections with other people and I know how well intentioned what they’re doing actually is. Like, I don’t find myself getting mad, but I do, when I go back to it, it takes me 10 or 15 minutes of like paging back in the context to actually get started again. And so the real downside of that is like if then someone comes in 25 minutes later to say, hi, now I’m in this, like, state of, uh, distress because I’m like, I’m never gonna be able to finish this project. Like a, a one minute interruption every 30 minutes would mean I never get the project done. 

[00:27:31] Amy Sandler: I see Brandi nodding a lot, of just sort of around that like startup cost and, and then, and we’ve talked about the need for think time. I’m thinking, I’m thinking Jason, of like the, the virtual equivalent, which is like getting a Slack notification or something like that. But we can, we can manage that. We can turn that off. We can, you know, minimize the window. It’s hard to like minimize the human window a little bit without it. 

[00:27:54] Jason Rosoff: Well, you don’t want to, like, I, I think it’s like, I’ve seen a lot of organizations try to make it okay to sort of like nip those things in the bud and be like, you know, put a sign on your door that says like, I’m, like focused time. Please don’t interrupt, or something like that. But I feel like it seems really rude no matter how many ways you try to make it nice to, especially if someone, you know, knocks on your door, maybe you don’t have the sign up or something like that, and someone knocks on your door, I think it seems, it’s very hard to make it not seem rude to be like, hey, sorry. Like, could, could you come back later? ‘Cause like, I, if I don’t refocus on this in the next 10 seconds, it’s gonna cost me 20 minutes. 

[00:28:36] Amy Sandler: Lost forever. Yeah. 

[00:28:40] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. 

[00:28:41] Brandi Neal: Can I just add something? Um, I also think, well, a lot of people don’t have an office to close the door. So before the pandemic there was a huge focus on like hot desks and the open office and you just take your laptop and sit in an available space, or if you work in like a cubicle farm, so someone else’s distraction like distracts you. And I started wearing headphones when I worked at LL Bean because there was like hundreds of people in the cubes. And just if someone came to talk to the person next to me, then I’m taken out of what I’m doing. And you just have to learn to like tune everyone out, which is really hard. 

[00:29:25] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. Totally fair. And I, I think like, it further illustrates why the, the, the, like, the actual way that many people are forcing folks back to the office is so ill-conceived. Because, you know, like I was using when, when I, I, I, like, I can’t remember the last time I had an office. Like I have to go back, I, I think it’s like, I don’t even know. At least 15 years since I’ve had like a, an, an, like an actual, uh, an actual office in an office building. And to your point, if there are not enough desks and there’s no toilet paper, there’s no way they’re taking into consideration like how much, like how often you’re getting interrupted.

[00:30:10] Amy Sandler: Yeah. 

[00:30:11] Jason Rosoff: Yeah, exactly. Like, like, like we’re so far away from that in, in the way that a lot of this stuff is being implemented and to me the, those are real costs that are gonna be very hard to calculate, but will be born out. 

[00:30:22] Amy Sandler: Totally. And I think, you know, one of the things to go back to that McKinsey piece was they were talking about, um, the difference between, they were looking at like, um, generational differences. So baby boomers, you know, 80% satisfied for in-person work, gen X, 73%, millennial, 72, gen Z, 68%. So, you know, more for, for baby boomers, but not like a market difference. But what was interesting when they compared male and female workers about their satisfaction with different working models, um, there were similarities, but the biggest difference was that women reported lower scores and lower satisfaction for in person.

[00:30:59] And what the research found was that women rated different practices such as around, Jason, I think some of the things that you think are important in person, such as collaboration, skill development, mentorship, especially mentorship, women rated much lower than men. So I thought that was interesting of, you know, potentially the, oh, we’re gonna have more mentorship and more skill development and collaboration in person, women, especially compared to men rated that lower in person. And, and the reason I mentioned it was I was also thinking of Neurodivergence. 

[00:31:30] And for me, as someone who, it would be very hard for me to focus, even with headphones, even just visually seeing someone right next to me, like I haven’t had an, I had a, a physical office for 10 years, but before that, um, you know, I’ve worked virtually for 10 years, but I always had an actual office and so that would be a very big shift to your point of like, how much do you value X versus Y, for me to not just have to go to an office, but then to physically just be at a cubicle and not even have my own space, like that would be another very big change. And I think at least for the way my brain is wired, um, it would not be a productive change. 

[00:32:07] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. So I think this, this brings us very naturally to like the, the, to this question of like, how can you talk to your manager about what you need to, to like return to the office effectively. And I think that the, there are, you know, other than like, you know, a space to do your work and all the tools that you need to do your work being available to you.

[00:32:29] Amy Sandler: And toilet paper.

[00:32:29] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. And toilet paper, uh, all being available to you, uh, at, at the office. Like, I think once we get beyond that, it really does boil down to, especially if, if, you know, if you’re starting from scratch, like why not build good hygiene? Uh, well, I, why not build good processes around, uh, like the hygiene still is more important now than ever, uh, that we’ve returned to the office. Um, but why not build, uh, uh, good processes for, you know, how, how you deal with things like quiet focused work versus like, I can be interrupted, uh, type, type of, uh, work. How do you create, how, how do, like even in a cubicle farm. Even in a hot desks scenario, I could imagine there being like sections, uh, in, in the hot desk world where you say like, hey, if you really need to like be heads down and focused, like this whole row is like, you know, or two rows around, 

[00:33:26] Amy Sandler: This is the library.

[00:33:27] Jason Rosoff: Correct, no interruptions. Like, don’t come and talk to somebody over there. Like if you wanna have a conversation with ’em, like ping them on Slack and ask them to meet you in the, you know, kitchenette or what, whatever to talk to. And then I could imagine you have, uh, another one where it is like, hey, I’m, uh, uh, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m working, but, you know, uh, able to be interrupted or something like that. Uh, and then maybe you have like a more social area, um, where there’s like collaboration going on. Like there could be active conversations or collaboration going on. Um, uh, things like, uh, things like that. And I, I do like, none of these things are gonna be ideal. Uh, there’s always gonna be trade offs. But it does seem like if you’re gonna, you know, you’re gonna make the effort to like, get everybody to commute into the office again. At the very least, you could try to do the best with what you have. 

[00:34:21] Um, uh, and so thinking about that, uh, and I think for each person, like if I was there, if I was a manager in this situation, uh, I, I, the question I would be asking each of my direct reports is like, how can we make the most of this return to office? Like, how can we make this the best experience that it could possibly be? I understand that there’s gonna be downsides and there’s gonna be drawbacks, but the focus should really be on, uh, on finding, generating ideas for how to make it as good of an experience as possible. And so if, you know, if you’re like Brandi and you’re like, hey, like, I need noise canceling headphones. And like, ideally I need a desk that faces away, like, you know, that faces a wall or away from where everybody’s walking. So I’m not like constantly seeing people, you know, uh, walk by. Like, ask for those things now. It’s probably a little bit easier to get them while everything’s up in the air than it is to like wait till everything is settled, uh, and, and then request a change.

[00:35:21] Amy Sandler: Great tips. I’m wondering, uh, Jason, do you wanna get into our, our tips? 

[00:35:27] Jason Rosoff: Let’s do some tips. 

[00:35:29] Amy Sandler: So now it’s time for our Radical Candor checklist, and these are tips to start putting Radical Candor into practice right away. Tip number one, if you are implementing a return to office, uh, decision, or you’ve got the decision wherever you are in the process, start by soliciting feedback. And so if somebody gives you honest feedback about why they’re hesitant to return to the office, acknowledge it. Take visible steps to address their concerns. As Jason was just sharing, if you already have a decision that you can change, look at what might be some of the things that you could do to make the return to office as successful for each of your direct reports and the folks working with you.

[00:36:13] Jason Rosoff: Tip number two, if you’re being asked to return to the office and you’re not sure that you are, uh, you’re going to like it, take this an opportunity, uh, you know, make, make an evaluation for yourself. Decide if, is it, is it completely unmanageable to try return to the office? And if so, then, you know, it might be time to quit and start hunting for another job. But if you can, uh, if you can grind it out for a little while, one of two things could happen. One, one, you give yourself some time to look for another job. And two, maybe you like it more than you thought that, that you would. And at least you’ve given it an opportunity. And I’m thinking about your friend, Amy, and, and just hoping that, um, you know, they, uh, they find some way to continue working at the, this great job that they have, even though the, the context has changed. 

[00:37:02] Amy Sandler: Yeah. Building on that, I think there’s something about, in a time of change, how can we really, you know, maybe it’s not about throwing out the baby with the bath water. It’s what are the really good parts? What can I keep? At the same time that we feel like we are looking for other opportunities and acknowledging that we might be in a time where, you know, we’ve been really lucky to have sort of that great job or that perfect job hitting all of our needs. And maybe, you know, what’s, what, what are we willing to let go of and what’s, what’s a must, a must have? 

[00:37:33] And then finally, tip number three, if you are someone who is implementing the return to office, um, it’s really important to gauge how people are responding and be aware that, uh, if people are not showing up to the office or not being as productive, that it might be landing differently for different people. And so if, if you’re finding distress or resistance, that is valuable information. And again, part of it is soliciting feedback and part of it is making changes where you actually can make changes. And I’m curious, Jason, just your example with Brandi about the headphones. Like, what, what can a manager who might not be able to change the actual policy, what are some other examples of things they might be able to do to adjust accordingly?

[00:38:19] Jason Rosoff: Yeah, so let’s call it tip number four, which is if you’re implementing, meaning it’s not your decision, but you’re implementing a return to the office, uh, policy or, or, or approach, uh, I think it’s gonna be really, really helpful to, to use this moment to establish or reestablish your, the norms of how, of how you work together. Uh, you could use my example of like, you know, if you have a hot desk set up, uh, you know, make sure it’s clear. Like some of them are, uh, if people are sitting at them, they’re interruptible and if they’re, if they’re sitting at another set, maybe they can’t be interrupted at the moment. You don’t have to go back to exactly the way things were before. The, I think the tendency is to like, repeat what we were doing before. But this is actually an opportunity to establish a new set of norms. And so whether it’s about meeting etiquette, shared spaces, communication expectations, use this as a, as a moment to create fresh, uh, uh, uh, norms that will work better for the people who have to work together in the office.

[00:39:19] Amy Sandler: Summarizing, uh, again, just going back to that McKinsey piece, Jason, what you were saying. Bryan Hancock from McKinsey noted that what they found was that it doesn’t really matter where you ask somebody to be. What matters is what you do with them once they’re there, and that requires intentionality. And so I think that’s just building on, you know, being intentional. How does the space that we’re setting up reinforce our values, our culture, um, and be willing to try something new. 

[00:39:48] So with that, uh, head on over to RadicalCandor.com/podcast for the show notes. As we like to say, praise in public and criticize in private. So if you like what you hear, please do rate and review us wherever you’re listening. And if you’ve got feedback, we welcome it. Please do send it email podcast@RadicalCandor.com. That’s podcast@RadicalCandor.com. Bye for now. 

[00:40:14] Jason Rosoff: Take care. 

[00:40:15] Amy Sandler: The Radical Candor Podcast is based on the book Radical Candor: Be a Kick-Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity by Kim Scott. Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal, with script editing by me, Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff, and is hosted by me still, Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn, Radical Candor the company, and visit us at RadicalCandor.com.

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Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer.

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