We’re celebrating Pride Month, and to kick us off, Amy and Brandi get real about the unfiltered, often uncomfortable truth of being LGBTQ+ in the workplace—where invisibility can feel safer than honesty, and “inclusion” doesn’t always include you. Together with Kim, they unpack the messy layers of LGBTQ+ identity at work—from pronoun politics and people-pleasing to being “the only one” in the room. If you’ve ever felt unseen at work—or want to ensure your team doesn’t have to—this one’s for you. Showing up matters more than getting it perfect.
Listen to the episode:
Episode at a Glance: Pride
This week on the Radical Candor podcast, Amy Sandler gets candid about the emotional labor of being out at work—and what happens when “inclusive culture” ends at cupcakes and a Slack emoji.
She’s joined by Kim and Brandi for an honest, funny, and much-needed check-in on how workplaces can do better—without waiting for Pride Month. to try.
Radical Candor Podcast Tips: Pride
- Give the folks you work with who do want to share their stories a chance to share their stories to amplify their voices the way Jason said he’s happy to support sharing Amy’s blog posts far and wide sharing this podcast far and wide. Give people a chance and amplify unheard voices.
- Part of caring personally is respecting people’s boundaries. Don’t ask people questions that they may be uncomfortable answering and don’t assume that because you would be comfortable answering a question another person is comfortable answering that question
- Be inclusive and acknowledge and promote visibility. Please don’t put people in boxes, whether it’s about identity attributes or imposing different vocabulary on them. Let each person decide for themselves, how they want to define and introduce themselves.
Radical Candor Podcast Resources: Pride
- Transcript
- Radically Candid Pride: Coming Out at Work
- Coming Out – Human Rights Campaign
- 7 Myths About Coming Out at Work
- Coming Out at Work
- Pride Month Shows Employers Have a Long Way to Go
- Supporting LGBTQ+ Workers’ Mental Health
- Beyond rainbow washing: Supporting LGBTQ+ at work and beyond
- How to support the LGBTQ+ community at work and beyond
- What Not To Say to Someone Who Has Come Out As Bisexual
- Coming out at work: transgender scientists share their stories
- Nearly half of LGBTQ employees in the US think being “out” at work is a bad career move
- Why Bisexual Adults Report Higher Rates of Mental Distress – The New York Times
- The 10 Most Groundbreaking Bisexual Characters of All Time
- Your Guide to the Best Online LGBTQ+ Counseling Options in 2023
- Read the ‘Yep, I’m Gay’ Ellen DeGeneres Interview From 1997
- Attitude: As Bisexual Awareness Week approaches, four bisexuals tell us if they feel accepted in 2023
The TLDR Radical Candor Podcast Transcript: Pride
[00:00:12] Amy Sandler: I’m Amy Sandler, your host for the Radical Candor podcast, and today’s a very special day.
[00:00:27] Amy Sandler: Kim and I are gonna do something very special today. Kim, you are gonna be taking on the hosting role and we’re gonna be having a conversation about being out in the workplace.
[00:01:42] Amy Sandler: It felt really important for me to speak up about being out at work and I tend to be a more private person. Uh, but I felt given recent headlines, and I, I, I got an email recently from HR Dive and I’ll just quote a couple of the statistics from HR Dive. It said nearly half of the employees surveyed in a recent Glassdoor poll feared being out at work would harm their careers, and either they would lose their job, be skipped over for a promotion, or not be chosen for a project. There was some other data, uh, from the Society for Human Resource Management, SHRM, 40% of LGBTQ+ workers haven’t shared their identity at work. One in five said they thought doing so would affect their chances of being promoted. And I realized that I have the ability, um, to maybe help with that. And so I, I really wanna focus on how, to anyone listening, if me sharing my story can help you or help someone you’re working with, then that’s what matters most to me. So that’s really my intention for, for this session, Kim.
[00:02:57] Kim Scott: I think it’s also really important, like I, that is really eyeopening for me, those statistics. That I, I just sort of, and I think this is often true when we’re coming from a position of privilege, we assume, or at least I assume, that everybody would feel comfortable in today’s world. Uh, especially, uh, you know, maybe not everywhere in the country, but especially here in California, um, uh, being out at work and that’s clearly not the case. So I think it’s really, I’m glad we’re talking about this and I wanna hear your story because, you know, we, we were at the same place at the same time, uh, in the mid 1990s.
[00:03:40] Amy Sandler: We were, it’s amazing how we could be late twenties then, and still late twenties now. And time just seems to have stopped. Um, so yeah, if we can do, I don’t know if we can put in some, a sound of time travel as, as like those pieces of the calendar fall off and they’re sort of the, we’re going back to the mid, back in time. To be clear, this is the 1990s. Like, let’s not, you know, let’s not,
[00:04:04] Kim Scott: Let’s not exaggerate.
[00:04:06] Amy Sandler: But nonetheless, it was a different century, uh, when Kim and I were at Harvard Business School together. And I, I wanna frame this conversation from a couple of places. One is that, and there’s a, a piece, uh, from Harvard Business Review that we’ll put in the show notes. But there was a quote that really resonated with me, which is that the LGBTQ+ community is endlessly diverse and intersectional in nature, but many members share a unifying experience of being othered, particularly in workplace settings. And I share that because I, I really am gonna share from my own perspective. I know Kim, you’re a big believer in storytelling.
[00:04:43] We’ll put in some research in the show notes, but this conversation, I am speaking for myself from my own experience, mindful that each person is very much gonna have their own experience. And not only might my experience be different from a generational perspective from the mid 1990s, but also acknowledging the privilege that I, I did have in many ways of being at Harvard Business School, the educational opportunity, the sort of socioeconomic opportunity and many other opportunities that many folks in this community have not had. So I, I feel like that’s important to name. And Kim, just from all the work you’ve done with Just Work, is there anything more you wanna add to that?
[00:05:22] Kim Scott: You know, I think that there’s, uh, people really long for one word, they want to know what is the quote unquote right thing to say. And in fact, Amy and Brandi, you, we were all in a training together and the person who led the training was saying what the right, you know, quote unquote right words to, to use, referring to, to people who are not straight. And I, I remember having this kind of wincing feeling because I, I would’ve preferred that this person, rather than saying what the right words are, ask you how you prefer to be identified, each of you. Because, for example, a, a totally different topic, but I really hate to be called a girl. I am, I am an adult and I am not, I am not a child. And therefore, but not all women feel that way. And so I don’t speak for all women. And so I think it’s really important to remember as we’re having these conversations and sort of to your point Amy, like you don’t speak for everyone. Uh, and you’ll notice I’m saying not straight. So we’ll get into the vocabulary and, and I’m ashamed to say like I. I think you prefer to be called gay, but I’m not even sure that I know the right word for you. So I’m gonna do this live, like, what should I say?
[00:06:40] Amy Sandler: I really struggle with pronouns for myself, specifically. And I had an example where in doing a training, it was important to the organizers that facilitators put their pronouns in parentheses, um, to, and, and the intention was a great one, which is that they wanted to model inclusion and safety. And I shared with the organizers that I didn’t feel comfortable with that. And, and I’ll tell you why I didn’t feel comfortable. I’ll tell you what I did do, I was doing a, um, a training where I was actually a participant. It was a, it was a, uh, workshop design, uh, session, and there was a moment where folks were asked to put their pronouns into the chat. And I don’t feel comfortable with that because, and I know it’s ironic because I’m having this conversation in a public podcast, but that is for me, my story to tell and the way that I want to tell it. And to put it sort of on a slide in parentheses, for me kind of puts me in a box and I don’t wanna be in a box.
[00:07:54] And for me, the words actually are, feel very limiting to me and don’t really describe my identity. I would say if I were younger I would probably identify as non-binary. But I didn’t even learn what non-binary was until about, I think, seven years ago from my nephew, you know. Like, it’s like, oh, here’s a word. And this is like probably how I’ve lived my life. But that word doesn’t so much relate to me because I spent most of my life not having a word. So what I did in the pronouns was I, I didn’t wanna feel wedged in with, with words. And so I put in emojis, and I think the emojis I chose were like a heart, and a rainbow, and like stars. And that feels like, that feels much more like me than, than, they, she, you know. And so again, it’s very individual, but for me it’s a conversation that I wanna have in my own terms, rather than sort of a forced conversation at the start of, for example, a workshop on a slide.
[00:09:00] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. I think that is so important to, to talk about because I, for very different reasons, I also don’t love putting my pronouns. Um, and I do identify as she / her, I guess. But I just don’t want that to be the first thing about, like, I would like to live in a world where that’s not the first thing that people notice. Where they notice me as an individual. Um, and you know, and probably, you know, who knows how I might identify if I grew up now instead of, but anyway, Anne Libera, uh, who is, who we know, who is a professor of comedy. She, she taught a class last year called Fuck the Binary. And so for a while I was tempted to put that, and then I was like, oh, that maybe, so maybe down with the binary is what I’m gonna put in my.
[00:09:52] Amy Sandler: Yeah. Well, I, I love that. And that’s, that’s completely how I, I live my life. And I think, you know, again, for folks who do have privilege, to the extent that we can, um, make people comfortable. Uh, and so I think the pronoun thing is complex, and I’ll just share from my own perspective how that, how that lands. Uh, and I think it actually speaks to this broader question of how much do we focus on making other people comfortable and being comfortable ourselves? And for me, my own journey of this was over-indexing on everyone else’s comfort and not my own comfort. And so maybe we’ll, we’ll go back in time to the 1990s and I realized that I was attracted to women. And this was quite a surprise. And so one of the things that happened was I started going out to date and what was available to me at the time were, um, bars and nightclubs, which like wasn’t something I had done, but I was like going alone.
[00:10:59] And so I was kind of living this double life as a, like, I felt like this sort of closeted, like I’d go out and then I’d come back to the school in the, in the morning and there would be these stories of regaling around, um, all of the hijinks that had been going on amongst the, you know, mainstream population. And I was sitting there like, oh my gosh, if they only knew what I was doing or, you know, but I felt, so there was this sense of difference, um, in a fine way, but also a sense of being out of, certainly out of the mainstream. And I did joke, um, I don’t know if this will resonate. There was just a piece recently in the Wall Street Journal about how the H-bomb may not be as effective as it once was. Do you know, do you know the story about the H-bomb, Kim?
[00:11:43] Kim Scott: Yes. You, you never say,
[00:11:45] Amy Sandler: Do you wanna define it?
[00:11:46] Kim Scott: So, so the H-bomb is what happens when you say that you went to Harvard and, uh, you create a blast radius around you of, you, you, I mean, my interpretation anyway, I don’t know if this is yours, is that, as soon as you say that people assume you’re an asshole and, um, a whole variety of other things about you. Uh, and, and so you try hard not to, not to say it.
[00:12:13] Amy Sandler: That’s hilarious. Well, my interpretation of it, from a dating perspective, was that straight men would quote, drop the H-bomb and women would fall at their feet. Like that was sort of the dating perception.
[00:12:26] Kim Scott: My experience as a straight woman is I would say that, and men would run.
[00:12:30] Amy Sandler: Yes. Well, by the way, women would also, so that was very upsetting for me because I was taught that if you just say the H-bomb women will just run towards you. But that also,
[00:12:39] Kim Scott: That didn’t work for you.
[00:12:39] Amy Sandler: Not happening in my community either. So we have more in common.
[00:12:43] Kim Scott: Neither one of us. But yeah, it was, it created a blast radius as opposed to an attraction.
[00:12:48] Amy Sandler: Exactly. So maybe we had more in common than, than we think.
[00:12:53] Kim Scott: So, uh, the first thing that I thought is, why was there no one for you to date at HBS? And, and then I started going through like, I must, and I actually can’t think of who you should have dated from hBS. So maybe,
[00:13:06] Amy Sandler: Well, one of the things we learned at business school, which I was not good at, was, uh, macroeconomics. I actually had to take a course ’cause I’d been an English major and so, uh, there’s a thing called supply and demand. There was a rather limited supply. I knew of one lesbian and she had a girlfriend. That was my one, that was, that was it. That was, that was it.
[00:13:31] Kim Scott: Like, that’s surprising, that there were so few lesbians.
[00:13:34] Amy Sandler: Well, that’s, I mean, and I think that goes to also even some of what you were saying about like, oh, it’s surprising that it would be, um, hard to come out. Like, there, there, like, first of all, how do you, how do you know? Like the, the, the sort of norm, right, is that everyone is straight and cisgender. And phrases that we didn’t have then, then. Um, so first of all, and then there was some sort of club. It was very nascent and it was, there were, as usual, there were more gay men. So there was,
[00:14:04] Kim Scott: Well there were just more men, period.
[00:14:05] Amy Sandler: There were more men. So sort of,
[00:14:07] Kim Scott: Like, 70% men, 30% women.
[00:14:09] Amy Sandler: That’s right.
[00:14:10] Kim Scott: Or people who identified as.
[00:14:13] Amy Sandler: Yeah. That’s right.
[00:14:16] Kim Scott: I can’t think of any non-binary classmates, but as, as you said, maybe there were, but we didn’t even have the word then.
[00:14:22] Amy Sandler: Right? I mean, I guess there was me, but I certainly wasn’t then. Um, in my second year, uh, when I went out, I, and I had, I went out alone a bunch of times because that was sort of the only option and there was no internet dating or anything at the time. And, uh, lo and behold, this guy that I had met a few times in the first year was at this, um, gay bar. And so I was just like, oh my gosh, it’s so amazing. And we became best friends. And that friendship was so meaningful for me because first of all, he’s a wonderful person. But also until that point, I had not met anyone really where I felt like, oh, I can see myself living the life that I thought I was gonna have going to business school. Like I, there was no examples of what was possible. So here’s this person, and he’s brilliant and he’s successful and he’s kind. And it’s like, oh, okay. Like, something may be possible more than, you know, sort of my limited view. And so from my perspective, just, that’s why I think visibility is so important. And it might be very hard now in an era where companies have all of these, you know, ERGs and Pride activities and all of that. You know, there really was none of that when we were, uh, going to business school.
[00:15:39] Kim Scott: There really was not. Yeah. And that it’s, it’s surprising and sort of awful. ‘Cause this was like not that long ago, 1990. So it was like, in 1996 we graduated. Like in the second half of the 1990s. You know, the, the other thing that’s coming up for me here, Amy, is that I think we had a different but parallel experience in another way. Because at business school I was dating a man who was much older. He was 38 years older, and this was something that both he and I wanted to keep a secret. I was terrified that if it came out, people would sort of make all the usual assumptions about me. And, uh, and so I was sneaking off to New York to be with this guy kind of every weekend or every other weekend. And the, the, the men in my section, and I should say in my section, two, there were two men who were gay. So excepting those two guys. But there was a, there was a rumor about me that since I wasn’t dating any of them, I must be a lesbian. And I proudly, uh, accepted that. I thought, this is great. This is, keep saying that. Um, so,
[00:16:50] Amy Sandler: Well, I never heard the rumor. I would’ve doubled my, my number.
[00:16:55] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we didn’t know each other sadly.
[00:16:57] Amy Sandler: I know. Could’ve all been,
[00:16:58] Kim Scott: I would’ve, I would’ve trusted you enough to tell you the truth, but almost nobody, I think I told only one other person at business school, um, in the early days, that, that, what I was doing. And by the way, like this is a total aside, but one of the many weird ways in which Harvard gives you unfair privileges, when it finally did come out, I was terrified. Like, oh, everybody’s gonna say she’s the blonde gold digger. And instead they said, wow, that guy must be really good in bed. She went to Harvard. I was like, what? Anyway, um, the world is unjust and unpredictable in weird ways.
[00:17:37] Amy Sandler: Yes. Yes it is. And I, you know, as you share that story, I, again, first of all, I wish we had known each other, but I find it very poignant that we were both going through an experience holding these secrets. Um, I am a very, for me, authenticity, living in integrity is so important. And the, I think the pain of not being able to be fully aligned in your life is a big one. So I wanna really acknowledge that for both of us. I also, uh, was, was closeted about my spiritual practice and if there’s one thing that I am so grateful for with this coming out process was that it really encouraged me, inspired me, almost propelled me into spiritual practices in the, in the 90’s that I, I never would’ve been really aware of. But because I was starting to question, you know, who am I?
[00:18:31] And if I’m sort of going off the path of the mainstream sort of success path, it really brought me into, into a spiritual path, which is really the most important thing for me. And by the way, interestingly, until really the last couple years, I think with the pandemic, that was something I actually felt needing to be closeted about as well. Like it’s like, okay, well I can now come out as, um, and we could talk about the word gay versus lesbian, in other words, but me being, uh, into crystals and, uh, walking on fire and breath work and Qigong and all these things I’ve done for decades, was also something I was pretty closeted about until recently. So, here we are.
[00:19:13] Kim Scott: Here we, well, I’m glad, I’m glad you are now talking openly because I think, I think it’s so, I mean, it is really, it’s a terrible thing to have to hide who you do love. I think it’s even harder if you have to hide who you want to love. Because how in the world are you supposed to find the person if you are not able to talk openly about it and to be open about it?
[00:19:37] Amy Sandler: Yeah, and as I was thinking about us chatting about this, I was reflecting on that burden and being at a company, uh, in sort of maybe 20, 20 plus years ago where I, I was actually penalized for being gay. And then I went to another company where I had a very traditional boss. This was the one who marveled at my typing skills. And, uh, I literally, for two years, did not once mention anything remotely about my personal life. It was as if I, I truly, you, we talk a lot about like, don’t be a robot at work. And I really was. And the toll that that took on my psyche and just the, um, the sort of heaviness was something that, that really, it took a toll. And I am aware, especially when people have feedback, conversations just how often we have this baggage from other jobs that we’re bringing with us to our current job or other experiences that people don’t necessarily know that we’re bringing with us.
[00:20:46] Kim Scott: Yeah. And if you can’t, if you have to hide who you are, it really is impossible to do your very best work. Um, it’s like this sort of thing in the back of your mind that is occupying space that should otherwise be occupied by what you’re trying to get done.
[00:21:02] Amy Sandler: Absolutely.
[00:21:04] Kim Scott: So when did you finally feel free to come out at work? When were you, or maybe you never felt free, when were you able to?
[00:21:13] Amy Sandler: Yeah. Well, it’s a great question. I think in some of the articles that we’ll share, it’s, it’s not really like a one and done, it was very much an evolutionary process. And you, you mentioned how there was maybe one person that you felt comfortable sharing your own, um, secret quote unquote with. Similar for me in, in business school, there were a couple people I shared it with. I would start to share it, um, sort of here and there and selectively with friends. Um, in the workplace, I might be out to one person, but not to other people. And so it was sort of an ongoing practice, even, uh, about 10 or 15 years ago when I worked at a company where my manager, it was a, a gay man, there was a lot of um, uh, LGBTQ folks in the organization, I still felt not fully comfortable being out. And honestly, it, it has not been until Radical Candor where I feel like I can fully be myself. And the best way to notice that is by following my hair.
[00:22:24] Kim Scott: Okay, so let’s talk about your hair. Let’s talk about your hair. Um, but, and let’s also talk about, before we get to the hair, you have a very good hair story, but before we talk about your hair,
[00:22:36] Amy Sandler: I thought you were just gonna say good, is the story good or is the hair good?
[00:22:39] Kim Scott: The hair is lovely. In all its forms, the hair is fantastic. But the question that I have for you is, before we tell that story, is what could earlier peers and managers have done to make it easier for you?
[00:22:59] Amy Sandler: It’s, it’s such a great question and it’s hard to, I think, go back in time to the context in which we were living, right? I have some ideas about what people can do now, um, you know, and, and, and the support that I’ve received now. Actually, can I phone a friend?
[00:23:20] Kim Scott: Yes, please.
[00:23:21] Amy Sandler: Okay. Brandi, is there something, I know you wanted to share a little bit about your own experience. Is there something from your perspective that you would’ve appreciated someone say to you? For me, it’s hard to like put myself back in, you know, 2000.
[00:23:38] Brandi Neal: No, I feel similarly. I think that, you know, I’m 10 years younger than Amy and Kim, and I still feel like it was that different. And I’m, my experience of now is working at Radical Candor and before that I worked at a women’s website, so I felt like I could be myself. But in the experiences before that, I think it has a lot to do with how society and culture was at the time toward my identity. So I am bisexual, which is really challenging in the workplace because people don’t understand, um, bisexuals are often marginalized more from the LGBTQ community than they are from the straight community.
[00:24:29] People ask very inappropriate questions, even in work settings. And you constantly have to explain your relationships about, especially if you start dating someone of a different gender than the previous relationship had been. So I felt like it opened me up to significantly more sexual harassment and I didn’t feel like I could report that. Um, and I still, to a very large degree, I think, I don’t think we’ve made that much progress for bisexuals. Um, I know people who are in relationships with same sex partners whose partners don’t even know that they identify as bisexual, it’s that stigmatized in the LGBTQ community.
[00:25:15] Kim Scott: That is really hard and you, you explained that to me when, when my child was sort of wrestling with their sexuality. And I warned Mars about that. I said, you know, you’re young and you may change your mind, and that’s okay. And that’s gotta be okay. And they pointed out to me a couple of times at school that people were doing that. Were saying, you can’t change your mind, and of course you can, of course you can. Of course you can. Um, so I think you’re right. I mean, even in, in, Mars is a much younger, you know, still a teenager. Much younger generation.
[00:25:56] Brandi Neal: Yes. Um, I have a, a friend of mine, she identifies as queer, but she had been identified as a lesbian publicly. And then when she married a man, Twitter came for her. The community came for her. She lost all of her friends in the LGBTQ community. And it, it made me afraid in a lot of instances to publicly identify.
[00:26:23] Kim Scott: Yeah. Uh, understandably.
[00:26:25] Brandi Neal: And it’s really not anyone’s business because, uh, it would make me feel ostracized on one hand and unsafe on the other hand.
[00:26:31] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:26:31] Brandi Neal: Because you get inappropriate requests from people, especially on dating sites.
[00:26:37] Kim Scott: Ugh. That is really hard. And to what extent can your coworkers and your manager help you deal with that difficulty when you come into the workplace? Create at least, I mean, there’s nothing, I don’t think, that your coworkers and your manager can do about online dating sites. But, um, but what can, what, you know, work can be a respite, work can be the place where you go, uh, where, where you’re, where, where you’re more free to be yourself and where you’re not experiencing those things. But how, how can things be better, at least at work?
[00:27:14] Brandi Neal: For me, it’s felt like there’s been a different way that I have been talked to by certain people because they have, I don’t wanna say fetishized, but that’s almost what I think it is. Is like, so it’s inappropriate, but people don’t see it, that they think they have a right to ask you these questions. So, you know, just don’t do that. That would, would’ve been helpful to me, um, you know, like two, two jobs ago where that was happening. And I didn’t really know how to answer those questions. You know, like just gonna like tell people who are like, senior to me to fuck off.
[00:27:48] Kim Scott: Yeah. Or that it’s none of their business. I think that, I think you’re raising a really important point. Like part of caring personally is respecting other people’s boundaries and having the sensitivity to understand when you’re beginning to trot on territory that this person just doesn’t wanna go. Um, and I think that, I think sometimes people feel like they have a right to know things that they, that are just none of their business.
[00:28:15] Brandi Neal: Yes.
[00:28:15] Amy Sandler: Yeah, I, I think the conversation you’re having with Brandi is really important, and for me, it goes back to building one-on-one relationships at work, and understanding what is a boundary for someone. But as Brandi says, it’s a function of both, kind of time and, and context. So I wanted to talk about the, the, the words and the names. You know, originally I did identify as gay. And again, this was in the, in the mid nineties. Uh, and I think this was very much a function of my own inner misogyny and inner homophobia. Um, and there was a sense that gay felt like a more powerful term than lesbian. And lesbian had this connotation, at least at the time, at least in the context that I was in, of you know, sort of a gym coach saying, hustle up ladies. And, and by the way, I would’ve probably been happier being a gym coach saying, hustle up ladies and not to mention in a lot better shape than I am now.
[00:29:19] Um, but you know, that was sort of my, like your own inner one’s, own inner homophobia, the sea that we’re swimming in. And so it’s still hard for me to say the word lesbian, like all these years later. Um, let alone the word queer, which feels sort of edgy and like, um, you, you know, sort of more of a rebel than I am. Although I do feel like a rebel. You know, there’s a lot of baggage around these words, um, let alone when you start labeling yourself that way, and then thinking about how other people are seeing you. So I think for folks to have a little bit of grace around that for other people, knowing that even just a word or a label, like what you said about girl, you know, all of these other connotations in all of the sea that we’ve been swimming and that we’ve absorbed.
[00:30:12] Kim Scott: And I think going back to the point that you started with, like you’re not speaking for everybody. You’re telling, you’re being unbelievably honest and making yourself vulnerable about why you choose the words you choose. And I think the only response is to respect the words you choose, like you get to choose what, you know, how you refer to yourself, and how you prefer that others refer to you.
[00:30:35] Amy Sandler: Yeah, and I think it’s important, you know, I wanna share something from my own experience that may or may not be, um, either universal or even people can relate to, which is that I even, whether it’s non-binary or lesbian or these other things around gender and sexuality, like these are not the primary way through which I move in the world. And I’ve done a lot of work on myself so that those are not, to your point, about is this the first thing people are meeting me with. So I don’t need those as sort of my, as adjectives on a first introduction. Because that’s not the primary thing. Now it was a primary thing for me a few decades ago when I was like working through it. But I say that because I think in this era that we’re in where there’s so much friction around words and labels and naming, it’s so important to name and have visibility for groups that are underrepresented. And so even if I don’t necessarily need to lead with that because of my own work and process, I really wanna amplify how important it is that those, that, that there’s the visibility for each of those groups and, and beyond. That feels important.
[00:31:55] Kim Scott: And different people are gonna feel differently. I mean, I, I, you know, I will go back to my reluctance to put she / her, there’s probably some internalized sexism there. I’ve struggled so much in my career with, uh, with being a woman. Like, I don’t, maybe that’s the reason why I don’t wanna lead that. I don’t know. So I think you’re exactly right. Like people don’t necessarily wanna lead with, with these things, even though they’re core to who they are and they’re not denying it, but they don’t wanna say it straight, you know, first, first thing.
[00:32:28] Amy Sandler: So to speak.
[00:32:29] Kim Scott: It’s not the most, you are Amy. You are Amy. That is what is important about you. You are Brandi.
[00:32:37] Brandi Neal: Yes. I was looking up earlier, I was thinking about, you know, representation in books, TV, film, um, for bisexuals and I got, Amy, can you imagine who I’m thinking of?
[00:32:50] Amy Sandler: Kalinda?
[00:32:51] Um, Archie Panjabi from the Good Wife, Kalinda Sharma. Um, because she was, the story was not about her coming out. She was already out in the workplace and it was fine, and I had never seen that plot point on television before where it wasn’t about, we’re making fun of this bisexual person. We’re making some kind of commentary about bisexuality. It was like, this is just who this person is and we’re not gonna talk about it. Like it’s just her life. And that felt very freeing to me to have it be made a non-issue. But it was, it was part of her storyline because she had relationships, but it wasn’t anyone’s focus at her job. She felt comfortable with who she was and still one of my favorite characters to this day.
[00:33:34] Kim Scott: Something new to watch. And, and I think you’re right. It’s really important, new for me, I should say. Uh, ’cause I haven’t, haven’t, so now, now I have some good ideas, um, for some stuff to watch with Mars. I mean, Mars and I were watching Grey’s Anatomy during COVID, and we watched all 19 seasons of Grey’s Anatomy. So we watched a lot of, and Mars was got very angry at one point. All the couples who aren’t straight, they won’t show the sex scenes. I wouldn’t have noticed if, if they hadn’t pointed it out. And so I think like there’s, there’s a lot in just in, in the ether that is coming at us, you know?
[00:34:15] Amy Sandler: And I think just to go back to quote coming out, it seems like, well, why does this need to happen? But when this sort of, the sea you’re swimming in is showing all of these things and you don’t have these other examples like what Brandi just mentioned. I will say, you know, after business school, I went to film school, which I’ve always described as kind of an income minimizing choice. Um, but you know, and at the time the model of, uh, of a great story was boy meets girl, boy gets girl, boy loses girl. And so I was like, well gosh, if that’s the hero’s journey, then I guess I’ll just have to be the boy meeting the girl.
[00:34:50] You know? It just, there weren’t really a lot of choices there. And then you also had to write a screenplay that 13-year-old boys would like. It was very complicated. Luckily at the time, I felt a little bit like a 13-year-old boy. But nonetheless, you know, when it comes to these stories, for me, the big moment was when Ellen DeGeneres came out on her television show. That was a huge news. It was a huge moment in the culture and I’m sure a large number of our, you know, listeners might have no idea what I’m talking about, but it was, it was baffling and befuddling and a huge moment to have a lesbian kiss.
[00:35:28] Brandi Neal: And she came out on her, not on the talk show, but she had a sitcom.
[00:35:34] Amy Sandler: Yeah, yeah.
[00:35:35] Brandi Neal: Just for listeners who don’t know about the sitcom.
[00:35:38] Amy Sandler: She was a comedian. She had a, a eponymous, uh, sitcom. And, and actually, if I’m not mistaken, I haven’t looked, but I do believe the cover of the Time or the Newsweek or whatever said I’m gay. Which just again, going back to the, um, the time. We’ll have to check that. But just to go back to sort of visibility like this was, this was a huge deal. And then often when you look at old shows from that era, just how the gay or lesbian or the, you know, again, limited bisexual, let alone LGBTQ, like full spectrum, how this character often was like the friend or the, you know, they didn’t get to have the real romantic life, or they were, you know, the serial killer. You know, it wasn’t like a lot of, lot of good options, So, um, shall we, shall we talk about hair now, Kim? Where do you wanna go?
[00:36:26] Kim Scott: Yeah, let’s talk, so, so I, I, you have a great story, Amy. And I wanna, I wanna ask you a question because you, the first time I heard the story was when I had asked you to take a look at Just Work and to make sure that I wasn’t sort of missing, uh, and, and so I wanna ask you, was that, how did you feel about, uh, I have never asked you this, but how did you feel about that request for me? Was that, um, was that, uh, an unfair request of me to have made?
[00:37:01] Amy Sandler: You mean to review Just Work?
[00:37:03] Kim Scott: Just work especially from the lens of being gay or a lesbian or bisexual. I asked both Amy, you and Brandi to take a look at it.
[00:37:12] Amy Sandler: I, I really appreciated it. I mean, I am, I love your desire to get feedback. I love your desire to get inclusive, and I felt very validated by that ask. Now maybe someone else might have thought like, oh, it’s extra work. Or, you know, that’s not like, I feel very differently. I feel like you have such a, you’re such a great thinker that you asking for my perspective on that meant a lot. I will say I can’t remember the specifics. I do think there was an example where I had shared something private in a comment with you, but then it was like in a more public document and I was aware, like in an asynchronous document, me sharing something that like I would wanna share for you. And then all of a sudden there’s like all these people’s names and I’m like, what’s going on here? So, you know, I think that’s, um, the only kind of caveat, and again, that’s my own privacy of like, there’s things that I would feel comfortable saying to you. I don’t know who else is hearing that in the document, et cetera.
[00:38:14] Kim Scott: Yeah. Brandi, what did you, how did you feel about that?
[00:38:19] Brandi Neal: I felt fine about it. Happy to do it. Um, and I think that I had talked to you about having different readers for, or like an inclusion reading to, you know, make sure that communities that you’re not a part of are correctly represented. Um, it feels like so long ago.
[00:38:38] Kim Scott: It does feel so long ago.
[00:38:38] Brandi Neal: Even though it was only three years ago.
[00:38:39] Amy Sandler: It feels like a really long, four years ago. And so much has changed. And actually, Brandi, you mentioning that, I think I was very aware that, again, I’m only speaking from my own perspective, I am not an expert in this space per se. There’s so many, and especially the intersectionality around these issues. Like I can really only look at it from my own lens. And it’s as limited as it is.
[00:39:05] Kim Scott: And you told, you pointed out something to me that was very, that I had, that I never would’ve thought about. Because I was sort of, I, I forgot what the story was, but I was talking about the fact that I always wear men’s jeans, and you pointed out to me, like, it’s a privilege that people don’t make an, you know, that, that you, that just, you can do that without causing people to give you too much flack about it, which I had never.
[00:39:30] Amy Sandler: Did I?
[00:39:30] Kim Scott: Yeah, you did. I was like, oh gosh. I never would’ve thought about my wearing 501 shrink fit jeans. But you’re right. I mean, because I look sort of traditionally feminine, so nobody’s gonna say anything really. Although, of course people did, and my boss once went out and bought me a super tight pair of jeans that were not men’s jeans, but that’s a whole other story.
[00:39:54] Brandi Neal: So inappropriate.
[00:39:55] Amy Sandler: Well, but it is, it’s a related story though.
[00:39:57] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:39:57] Amy Sandler: Because it’s basically like in many ways on the surface you might present in a way that seems, you know, traditionally feminine, pretty, et cetera, in the, in the definition of what sort of society might deem as straight, um, if that’s even correct versus cisgendered. And if I’m making use of the wrong terms, I’m apologizing.
[00:40:19] Kim Scott: People will tell us.
[00:40:20] Amy Sandler: Yeah.
[00:40:21] Kim Scott: We, we will, we will solicit feedback. But Amy, you told me in the course of that, a really good story, which I think our listeners would love to hear.
[00:40:28] Amy Sandler: Yeah. Well, thank you.
[00:40:29] Kim Scott: I mean, a painful, I shouldn’t say a good story. It is a painful story well told by you.
[00:40:34] Amy Sandler: Well, as we know, so many of these stories, um, come from, you know, as the saying goes, tragedy plus time, you know, equals, is humor. Humor and comedy. So I, I have a lot of stories about my hair. And I think there’s a one human show, one person show about it. But this specific story, this was about seven years ago. Should I locate the specific time in which this happened?
[00:41:00] Kim Scott: Sure, yeah.
[00:41:00] Amy Sandler: This was the, this was, this was, uh, the day after the US presidential elections in November of 2016. And I was traveling, I was in a more conservative part of the country. And I had, this was soon before I was, uh, teaching Radical Candor. At the time, I was teaching mindfulness and emotional intelligence primarily to groups of CEOs and, and leaders. And on that specific day, again, the day after the election, I had, uh, two CEO groups. It was at a country club and I had been up the whole night before. Um, and I showed up, uh, and I was in one of the groups and they were very pleased with how things had turned out, and I had a session that I thought went really well. Then I had another session. It was a full day. I had dinner with the two CEOs who had led the sessions and the, the guy from the first session said, well, you know, it would’ve been a lot better, uh, my members thought you didn’t look professional. And I said,
[00:42:07] Kim Scott: That is always like, nobody should ever say that.
[00:42:10] Amy Sandler: Yeah. And so I said,
[00:42:11] Kim Scott: As soon as, as soon as, what’s gonna follow is gonna be some bullshit, okay?
[00:42:15] Amy Sandler: So I said to um, to the other guy, I was like, oh, you know, did your members think I didn’t look professional? And he said, no. Uh, and so, uh, okay. Just to let you know, I was wearing a pinstriped suit. I was in a business suit. And I said to the guy who had said it, I said, you know, I think that might say more about your members than about me. I said it very kindly. And then he said, well, you know, when we hired you on the website, you had this long straight hair, and then you showed up here with this short hair. I mean, he didn’t say gay hair, but you know, that’s what he was saying.
[00:42:54] Kim Scott: That’s what he meant. Yeah.
[00:42:55] Amy Sandler: Yeah. So I mean, to be, to be fair, I did, you know, have long, straight hair and, you know, it was not an intentional bait and switch, but they, they did get me with my short hair.
[00:43:05] Kim Scott: They did not hire you for your hair.
[00:43:08] Amy Sandler: Well, apparently they did.
[00:43:09] Kim Scott: Like full fucking stop.
[00:43:11] Amy Sandler: So, uh, then, uh, he went on to say, you know, we had this Jewish guy come once and he had really curly hair and a beard. It was so unprofessional. At which time I realized it probably wouldn’t have been the safest thing to say that the reason I got my hair straightened was because I had very curly Jewish hair, um, but not a beard, you know, to be fair.
[00:43:34] Kim Scott: I sort of wish you did say that.
[00:43:35] Amy Sandler: I know, I know. You know, you think of all the great,
[00:43:38] Kim Scott: All the things later.
[00:43:40] Amy Sandler: So one of the reasons, Kim, that you and I talked about this story was because of what happened afterwards where I felt so shut down and so unsafe. That like all I could do was sort of preserve myself to get to the end of this, you know, conversation. Um, the irony is of course, that the session was about self-awareness and, you know, mindfulness and, uh, but it was, it was very challenging. I will say, like, you know, the prob, there are so many takeaways I had from that. But one of the things that I took away from that was I, I spent much of my time going into rooms where I was the only one. And Kim, I know you can relate to this, and I’m sure other folks from other underrepresented groups can relate to this. The only woman, the only lesbian, the only Jewish person, you know, sort of all of these, uh, identities that we might hold, and it gets to be pretty exhausting.
[00:44:43] And so it was, it’s been such a relief, um, again, working at Radical Candor is the first time where I feel like I am, like I can be who I am and I’m not, quote, the only, I’m not in, in those rooms. And some of that is a function of, you know, changing, um, structures. But if I was gonna be in a room of CEOs, I was usually the only woman and the only LGBTQ person, et cetera. And it, it gets, it gets pretty exhausting. The reason I share that is because I was working with a, a Shamanic teacher, um, years ago, and I said, I feel like I should be doing more, you know, get my book out, get my ideas out, and he said, you showing up as you in those spaces is more than enough. And, and so I, I just wanna give encouragement to people listening who might feel tired and sort of the only, et cetera, that you being you is more than enough.
[00:45:45] Kim Scott: That is wisdom, right there.
[00:45:49] Brandi Neal: Yes. Uh, Amy, something that you said just made me think of you being in that place in time in 2016, and I remember you telling me about it, and I was afraid for your safety. And I just wanna acknowledge my privilege as I am, am very feminine presenting. I can blend in, part of the vibe, invisibility keeps me safe in a way that it doesn’t keep other people safe. Just still in 2023. It can be dangerous to walk down the street.
[00:46:21] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:46:21] Amy Sandler: Especially, and also trans folks and you know, I think that’s a huge, a huge point.
[00:46:27] Brandi Neal: A hundred percent.
[00:46:28] Amy Sandler: Thank you for mentioning that, Brandi.
[00:46:30] Kim Scott: That is why we’re doing this today is to like, try to take some small step towards making the world safer, um, for people to be themselves as they walk down the street. One of the things I wanna do for folks who are listening is, is you might be a, uh, a straight leader who has people on your team who are not straight. And it’s, I think it’s also okay to remember it’s okay to make mistakes as long as you make it as, as long as you encourage people to tell you when you make a mistake. I mean, so for example, neither Jason nor I, and both Jason and I are straight, thought about, uh, thought, thought about doing something for Pride month, and that was an oversight.
[00:47:18] We should have done it. But you all told us and we wanted to correct it, but it wasn’t, I don’t, I don’t, I mean, so I just wanna ask for a moment. I shouldn’t say you all didn’t care at all. You probably did care. Like how did that, how did that feel like? ‘Cause I think the people, I think one of the things I wanna say is that we’re all gonna make mistakes and we’re all gonna do things that we wish we had done differently. And I think the, the, the key thing here is to make it okay to be told when you make a mistake and to make it okay to make mistakes. That is how we can all show up as our truest selves at work. I think not by being perfect.
[00:47:58] Amy Sandler: I think that’s critical, and I think some of this is generational. I am so empowered and inspired by younger generations who are much more advocating, pushing. I think the way in which you all responded was huge, but I actually didn’t even have an expectation. And I think that some of this is, you know, it just, again, speaking solely from myself, maybe other folks can resonate with this. It’s much easier for me to advocate for other communities than it is for me to advocate for myself. And,
[00:48:37] Brandi Neal: Same.
[00:48:38] Amy Sandler: Yeah. And thank you Brandi. And I, I am very aware of that, and I think it’s a cultural thing, and I don’t know how much of it is a gender thing, but I would just say that in the, having the group knowing that this is in service of a group, how we’re, we can almost support each other to speak up and advocate for yourself. And Kim, you know, I, you so inspire me to the way you share your stories, the way you acknowledge your mistakes. And I do think it’s so important for folks who might be on the receiving end of a mistake, but a mistake that someone’s willing to correct, uh, you know, can we even though like, like if, if that person from that, that workshop that I told you about, the, like, if they came to me and apologized, like I would love to hear that. You know, if they, if they, like if somebody makes a, a gesture like that, um, that’s the most important thing. Can we grow from it? Can we learn from it? Can we do better? And we’re not gonna do better if, if the penalty is too high for making a mistake, we’re just not gonna try.
[00:49:43] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. And it’ll be too hard to tell someone because like, it’s a vicious cycle. So let’s, let’s talk about what folks can do to support their LGBTQ+ peers. Um, I think Jason, Amy, you have a good story about something that, that Jason did after a workshop.
[00:50:02] Amy Sandler: Yeah, I’ve got several of these stories, um, but one that came to mind, I was leading a workshop where, uh, it was a group where it was some folks from, um, US as well as outside US and obviously cultural differences. And when I talked about care personally, this person said, it was a guy and he said, well, caring personally is really like about another guy that would be so gay, like in the middle of, uh, the workshop. And I wasn’t sure, I can’t even remember how I responded. I know I didn’t, I’m sure do it so well. And I went to Jason and like, how would you have done it? And it’s very hard, you know, as, as a, and, and managers who come from underrepresented communities can understand what I’m saying, which is, on the one hand you have the power as a workshop facilitator, like you’ve got the leadership role.
[00:50:53] So you’re kind of holding that power. And yet on the other hand, you might have an identity where you’re actually being potentially harmed or other people from that group are being harmed. And I, you know, not only was I was, you know, probably less worried about myself and more about like, how do I make sure this whole group knows that that’s not appropriate? Um, and so Jason, not only did he offer me the specific wisdom, the, the point that I actually wanna share with the group was that he made it abundantly clear that if I ever felt unsafe, that my safety, totally, like I, there was a verb I wanted to use that I don’t wanna use in this, like over,
[00:51:34] Kim Scott: What’s more important than,
[00:51:36] Amy Sandler: What’s more important than, uh, any client. And to feel like, you know, we will often say before we do the podcast, before we go into workshop, like, got your back. And for me, the CEO of the company saying that my safety will always be more important than a client, um, that he’s willing to sacrifice, you know, a client situation for that, like that gives me huge, huge comfort.
[00:52:03] Kim Scott: Yeah. That is really, really important. Brandi, what, what, what words of wisdom do you have for folks? How, how can they be better upstanders? I think one thing that you said, which is really important is like, it’s not your business. Like don’t, sometimes there’s clumsy curiosity.
[00:52:22] Brandi Neal: Yeah. I mean, I think just don’t ask inappropriate sexual and relationship questions of your coworkers. And like demand, in a way that is like demanding that you have the right to know because they are this kind of exhibit almost is how it feels.
[00:52:40] Kim Scott: Yeah. I think that is really, I think that’s really important. I think also the, one of the things that I realized at the end of Pride month was that the Supreme Court ruling that came down was really a blow to a lot of people. And the day on which it came, I mean, they could have waited. And I was on the phone with, uh, with an ERG group, uh, the, a, a leader of an ERG group who said, you know, this has been a really hard Pride month. And then just burst into tears. And I realized, that was also, and, and that had happened right before I got your, uh, the what, your post, Amy. And so I real, I realized like I had, I had failed to understand what was going on in the world.
[00:53:25] Amy Sandler: There is something else, Kim, based on what you shared and sort of your reaction of like, oh my gosh, that’s so surprising about folks not feeling comfortable coming out. Uh, when I, I shared the story, the hair story, a version of it, um, in a workshop that I did, and after I shared it, I, I did it in the context of a comment that came up around, um, uh, sort of DEI and, and belonging. And so I shared my own experience. And somebody came to me and he said, oh, that story, like, and it was very thoughtful the way he said it, but he said, I’m so surprised that happened to you. Like he was, he was kind of shocked that it happened. And so I think for folks who want to be allies, upstanders, et cetera, but I think that understanding of, oh, I might have thought that it wouldn’t have been hard, that’s interesting. How can I get more curious about, um, barriers that might not be visible, um, because I don’t experience them?
[00:54:29] Kim Scott: All right. Well, I, I know we’re getting at time. I wanna thank you Amy and Brandi for sharing. And I want to say I’m sorry for not recognizing Pride month during Pride month, but I’m glad we’re having this conversation now. And I’d love to sum up with a Radical Candor checklist, uh, and sort of help folks know about what they can do to support their colleagues. Amy, you wanna do the first one?
[00:54:58] Amy Sandler: Sure. And building on, you know, every day can be an opportunity to support our colleagues, not just a month or a day or however much is deemed. So, you know, tip number one is give the folks you work with, for, for people who do want to share their stories, a chance to share their stories, to amplify their voices, the way Jason said he’s happy to support sharing my blog posts far and wide. Sharing this podcast far and wide, give people a chance and amplify unheard voices.
[00:55:32] Kim Scott: Okay, tip number two. Part of caring personally is respecting people’s boundaries. Don’t ask people questions that they may be uncomfortable answering. And don’t assume that because you would be comfortable answering a question that another person is comfortable answering that question.
[00:55:51] Amy Sandler: Tip number three, building on tip number two. While we want to be inclusive and acknowledge and promote visibility, please don’t put people in boxes, whether it’s about identity attributes or imposing different vocabulary on them. Let each person decide for themselves how they want to define and introduce themselves.
[00:56:16] Kim Scott: To see the show notes of this episode, head to RadicalCandor.com/podcast. Praise in public and private, criticize in private. And I want to say, speaking of private criticism, we got some. And I wanna share it with folks. So if you like what you hear, please rate and review us on Apple Podcast. And if you have criticism for us, email it to podcast@RadicalCandor.com. And here is some criticism that we got. So, Lynn Cartwright Panette, uh, sent us a note letting us know that I used a word that I shouldn’t have in a recent episode. It’s since been deleted, but the problem is with the, I used the word lame when what I really meant was sort of, you’re not trying hard enough. And that word has ableist origins. This is something that I thought I knew and I thought I had expunged the misuse of that word from my vocabulary, but clearly I had not. So, thank you Lynn, for writing in and, and I’m sharing this here because it’s a reminder that we need to be persistent with ourselves. These sort of biased patterns of thought and speech are deeply ingrained and it can be hard to get them out, out of our vocabulary and out of our heads.
[00:57:40] Amy Sandler: I think that example, Kim, is a perfect example that, for the conversation that we just had, which is that we’re gonna do our best. We’re gonna mess up. Somebody’s gonna let us know we messed up, we’re gonna fix it. They’re gonna be grateful. You know, we had a lovely exchange around this. We’re all trying to get better together and that’s really the spirit of this podcast.
[00:58:04] Kim Scott: Absolutely. I think we should end on that note. Thanks everyone. Bye for now.
[00:58:10] Amy Sandler: Bye-bye.
[00:58:11] Brandi Neal: Yeah, bye.
[00:58:12] Amy Sandler: The Radical Candor Podcast is based on the book, Radical Candor: Be a Kick Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity by Kim Scott. Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal, with script editing by me, Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor, co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff, and is hosted by me still, Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn, Radical Candor the company, and visit us at RadicalCandor.com.
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