Ever find yourself avoiding a tough conversation at work because, well…it’s just easier? We get it. But what if leaning into discomfort could actually make things better—for you, your team, and your company? In this episode, Kim and Amy sit down with Amandeep (Aman) Kochar, CEO of Baker & Taylor, to talk about how he uses Radical Candor to break down barriers, build trust, and create a culture where feedback fuels growth instead of fear.
Listen to the episode:
Episode at a Glance: Aman Kochar Change Enabler
Radical Candor Podcast Resources: Aman Kochar Change Enabler
- Amandeep Kochar – Baker & Taylor | LinkedIn
- Baker & Taylor | About Our Leadership
- Jeet and Fudge
- Two Years After Buying Baker & Taylor, Aman Kochar Considers Its Mission
The TLDR Radical Candor Podcast Transcript: Aman Kochar Change Enabler
[00:00:00] Kim Scott: Hello, everybody. I’m Kim Scott. Welcome to the Radical Candor Podcast.
[00:00:08] Amy Sandler: I’m Amy Sandler. We tell a lot of stories on this podcast. So we thought we’d invite someone else to come and tell you all a Radical Candor story. And by the way, this is an expert in storytelling. We are so excited to welcome long time Radical Candor practitioner, Amandeep, Aman Kochar to the podcast. Aman is owner and CEO of Baker and Taylor, the near two hundred year old book distributor, content services and software company. He’s also author of the children’s book series, Jeet and Fudge, a passionate champion for early literacy and education, serving on the board of directors for both United for Libraries, a division of the American Libraries Association, and the National Book Foundation.
[00:00:58] Welcome. And can you also share with us some of the stories you were sharing about your name so that our listeners can not only pronounce it correctly and understand it, but also the origin?
[00:01:10] Amandeep Kochar: Uh, yeah, of course. Uh, thank you, Amy, for that lovely introduction.
[00:01:16] Amy Sandler: Yes, welcome.
[00:01:18] Amandeep Kochar: Uh, I would say, you know, for the longest time, um, I found my name to be fascinating because in the Indian subculture, your names, uh, translate into something. So, you know, when I, uh, I asked my mother, uh, we are two boys, uh, me and my older brother. So I asked her, how did you pick my name? And she said, well, I had two names picked out and whichever one of you was being born first, I would name them that. And okay, so in the Sikh culture, the holy book is called the Guru Granth Sahib. The tradition is that when a child is born, after that, you know, you get a prayer ceremony done and you open the book and you read from it. And the alphabet from that age is what you tackle and choose a name from. So my mother tells me that she had two names, Amandeep, which is my name, and Jagdeep, which is my brothers name..
[00:02:14] Uh, my name loosely translates into a lamp of peace. My brother’s name translates into the lamp of the world. So she said, uh, these two names that I really like. So if the alphabet A came, I would name him, uh, Amandeep, and J would be Jagdeep. Also in the Sikh culture, uh, the names are interchangeable for men and women, most of them are unisex names. Uh, this is based on the belief of, uh, the Sikh culture of, uh, equality, uh, for men and women, uh, and so on and so forth. So lots to, lots to, you know, unravel there but, um, the story I was telling you was, that I grew up with my mother calling me Amandeep. It got cut short to Aman while I was in high school and college.
[00:02:58] And when I moved to the United States, for lack of a better translation, transliteration, if you will, the western tongue, uh, was able to pronounce Aman and me being, um, appeasing of my superiors, never actually corrected them for a very long time. So, uh, it was only after a partner, uh, that encouraged me and said, you know, you have such a lovely name and you no longer are in a subservient position to be appeasing. You should start correcting people and giving them the correct pronunciation. So I only started it a few years ago and, uh, you know, so, thank you very much for asking me the correct pronunciation. If my mother happens to watch this, it will make her very, very happy.
[00:03:44] Kim Scott: We want to learn how to say your name properly, for sure.
[00:03:49] Amandeep Kochar: Thank you. And you know, another story that Radical Candor is also important because, uh, the courage to me is a big part of Radical Candor, whether you’re in a supervisory position or in a line management position, so that you’re able to ask, uh, for feedback and, uh, and remove that feedback debt that, Kim, you and I were talking about. Nobody actually, uh, none of my superiors or non Indian superiors actually asked me what my correct pronunciation was. And so I never had the opportunity, uh, to tell them, uh, what to do with it. So thank you again for asking.
[00:04:28] Amy Sandler: I learned so much. I mean, I think even just in what you shared, not only did I learn more about you, I learned more about your culture, what matters to you. It’s, I hopefully demonstrated care because I do want to get it right. By the way, I probably continue to not get it right. And so I’m going to keep doing my best, but I also learned a lot about your culture. And I think it’s something we’ll be getting into, of how does Radical Candor get practiced in different cultures, in different backgrounds, your own personal experience with it at Baker and Taylor. So we’ll get into all of that. Kim, sounded like you had a question you wanted to ask as well?
[00:05:02] Kim Scott: My question was, did your peers or any of your direct reports ever ask you? Was it, in other words, was it a hierarchy thing or just, uh, sort of an American cluelessness thing?
[00:05:16] Amandeep Kochar: I think it’s, um, I am partially to blame as well, Kim. I will take that rap sheet. I think in half the situations they never asked. And the other half I introduced myself as Aman because I didn’t want to, uh, you know, have my name be a point of discussion as well. So I would say it was partially self inflicted. Uh, and you know, also I was telling myself, hey, I have chosen to be here. So I must make it easier for my colleagues who will not get the pronunciation of my name intuitively. So let me be the person that makes the compromise. So I would say, you know, owning up to it. I introduced myself half of the time with that and the other half of the time they never asked. I never corrected them.
[00:06:05] Kim Scott: Right. Right.
[00:06:06] Amandeep Kochar: So, you know, that that’s also.
[00:06:08] Kim Scott: It’s hard.
[00:06:09] Amandeep Kochar: Yeah, it is very hard. And, you know, as we talk about Radical Candor, it’s, uh, you know, a part of your book that I thought, was also looking at a self reflection that how can you be candid with yourself? So I’ve kind of taken your framework and, you know, I check in with myself. That am I actually being, uh, you know, am I causing ruinous empathy with myself by, you know, toxic positivity saying, oh, I have to be here. I have to be the one making making it easier for everyone else because, you know, because I have, I am here and I must give back and I must make it easier. So a part of Radical Candor that I want to talk to you later when we get a chance is, not just my experiments of, uh, the framework with my team but also with myself and how long it took me, uh, to look at your framework and get to the top right quadrant.
[00:07:09] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:07:09] Amandeep Kochar: And, uh, you know, I bumbled along all the three other quadrants before I got to the top right.
[00:07:16] Kim Scott: You and me both. That’s why I wrote the book.
[00:07:19] Amy Sandler: So shall we get into the bumbling?
[00:07:21] Amandeep Kochar: Yes.
[00:07:21] Kim Scott: Sure
[00:07:23] Amy Sandler: So I would love to hear, and I really I love that you brought in Radical Candor for yourself. I really am so curious to hear about that. Let’s start first if you could just share with us when you arrived at Baker and Taylor and bringing Radical Candor there. But even just share a little bit about the history of this company because it really is an historic company. So paint a picture of the organization what brought you there and why you wanted to bring Radical Candor to Baker and Taylor.
[00:07:51] Amandeep Kochar: Amy, how lovely for you to ask, uh, you know, Baker and Taylor was formed in 1828, believe it or not.
[00:07:58] Kim Scott: Wow.
[00:07:58] Amandeep Kochar: And uh, you know in the American corporate history. I’m sure there are older religious and other uh, institutions that perform. But in the American corporate history, whatever research I have been able to do, Baker and Taylor would be in the first hundred companies, uh, in the United States history, would you believe it?
[00:08:19] Kim Scott: Wow.
[00:08:19] Amandeep Kochar: And, uh, I think, uh, you know, the founders, the previous management teams must have done something right to, uh, you know, to be coming close to two hundred years, right? I mean, uh, you know, Warren Buffett often talks about businesses that create continuous value and those are the ones who stay and not, you know, temporary value, uh, for generations. But, um, Baker and Taylor was in the business of publishing and distribution of books for a very long time. And as the years evolved, we’ve, uh, maintained our distribution network. We are one of the largest distributors of physical book around the world. So, believe it or not, I get to smell the smell of freshly printed books going out of our service centers, you know, over a thousand people across the United States.
[00:09:11] Amy Sandler: I think you’re speaking Kim’s love language. Is that right, Kim?
[00:09:14] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:09:16] Amandeep Kochar: You know, over fifteen hundred people around the world in four continents from Australia, India, the United Kingdom, and the United States, all aim towards one goal, how to get more readers reading more? And that is the purpose of our business. And that is what, I think, is the secret sauce that people recognize that we are not in this to be, uh, we don’t want our books to be branded that, you know, it’s, hey, it’s a Baker and Taylor book in a library. The library is the hero. The school is the hero. The college is the hero. We’re happy to be in the shadows being their partner that enables their people, the communities, the students, the campus, for them to find the content that they’re looking for, for them to find relevance, for them to find solace, for them to find an escape.
[00:10:12] And I think that’s the secret sauce. That if you can create value for the communities continuously that they can find something, uh, and take away from them, that it becomes a part of their DNA. Uh, that’s what Baker and Taylor is about today. As I said, we are one of the largest distributors of physical and digital content. We also provide services to libraries, uh, so that, uh, books that we get from over five thousand different publishers around the world are converted into a library book so that they can be discovered by lifelong learners in schools, colleges and libraries.
[00:10:51] And we also provide software services to enable these institutions to procure the right content, rationalize their content, manage their budget. And making sure that in their mission of serving their communities through literacy, uh, that we are partnered with them in having more readers reading more. So that’s Baker and Taylor and in three years, uh, we will be celebrating, um, it’s 2025, so in two years, we will be celebrating two hundred years of, uh, of championing the cause of literacy, uh, through book distribution or institution.
[00:11:31] Kim Scott: Love it. Such a great company.
[00:11:34] Amy Sandler: I have to ask, as we get into your bringing Radical Candor to Baker and Taylor, I was so struck how you were just talking about, you know, the books are the heroes. The libraries are the heroes. The students are the heroes. You’re really there to be in the back seat. Is that a leadership philosophy as well? Am I just writing myself into that story, but is that part of your leadership philosophy? Um, like, how do you see that relating to that idea of the role of a leader and a manager? And how to, how does your own vision of Radical Candor fit into your leadership philosophy?
[00:12:08] Amandeep Kochar: I think I’ve, uh, I’ve struggled with that for, uh, for a while, Amy, and Kim, to be honest. Because, um, as I grew in my career, I found myself to be the youngest person in most management rooms. So, you know, to, uh, to get, uh, respect, uh, naturally comes to us to, you know, look at the most seasoned professional in the room. And, uh, the person with the most radical ideas or the person challenging things, that’s what comes naturally to me, but, uh, it, uh, did not, uh, give me a good management style because I always ruffled feathers, um, for people to rally behind me. So I may have been, uh, a great change agent, if you will, but, uh, I struggled in the initial days to find a balance, uh, to lead people or to, uh, to have a common goal for, uh, people to rally behind me. Uh, because I thought that was my goal. My goal was to be a change agent.
[00:13:12] Kim Scott: Right.
[00:13:12] Amandeep Kochar: And I thought if I only get people to see the change for the good. But what people saw was that I wasn’t investing enough time, whether I was right or wrong, they thought that I was coming in with my ideas too fast and did not earn their respect. And, uh, that I simply did not have the inertia to move the organization. So the style that I have developed over the years has changed from being a change agent to being a change enabler. And it has also, uh, you know, in my journey when I was talking about bumbling, you know, I went from being a change agent and reflected that, hey, maybe that’s not good.
[00:13:59] So I became an appeaser. So I went into ruinous empathy where I would listen and listen and listen and thought that that would bring people closer to me or that would, uh, and then I never had the courage to give them feedback saying, hey, I’m, I listened to you. How would you react to this idea? Because I thought that if I challenged them, especially people that were older to me, uh, in age or more, more seasoned, uh, that their reactions were, you know, ranged from just very vitriolic, visceral reactions because I looked different, I sounded different, I hadn’t spent enough time in the company, they thought I didn’t have the subject matter expertise. So any and all respect that they may have had for an outside in perspective went out the window in the first five minutes. But then I went into this one-eighty and I only listened and only listened and only listened. That didn’t work either.
[00:14:57] So I said, well that’s not working. So I had somebody give me this feedback, saying, Aman, it may not be a bad idea for you to, uh, talk about your personal life. Because I never did that. You know, this is where the South Asian concept comes in, where I grew up keeping, you know, whatever happens in the house and the family stays in the house and the family. Uh, you know, when you go to work, you come back to work, you check it out and, you know, you’re only, uh, you’re only posting a happy family picture. Like, you know, politicians view of a perfect family organization, uh, rather than showcasing any vulnerability. And I know I’m going a little off topic, but I think vulnerability will bring us back into my leadership style. Because I, you know, I only started to practice that very late in life. I had a mentor, an ex boss that put me in this position many years ago. And, uh, you know, I noticed that they were very openly talk about having cancer and their battles in cancer. And they were still leading, um, the business and they kept us surprised.
[00:16:05] And I was like, well, you know, because my mind would be, well, wouldn’t this tell your people that, you know, you’re not in the best health, that you can’t take the right most decisions. I, why? And I learned from him that it allowed people to see a very human side of him because I realize that people when they listen to me, not only are they filtering out sixty percent of what I’m saying because of my accent or because of their prejudices. But also because of my title. That they think that, you know, most of the things that I would say would be bullshit, ’cause that’s what they were used to. And, uh, you know, so practicing vulnerability has had a big impact on both personal growth and professional growth and only started practicing it recently. You know, going from, uh, ruinous empathy, you know, to, uh, what people perceive me as manipulative insincerity, because they thought I had an ulterior motive. That I either wanted to, you know, get more information from them, not partner with them, fire them. And, you know, it was a mix of that and the other group thought that I was absolutely obnoxious.
[00:17:22] Because they thought I didn’t invest time in learning about them or the company, and how dare I bring up an idea that they hadn’t thought of. I found the silver bullet was vulnerability. It allowed me to connect to people at a personal level before an idea was shared professionally. It allowed, you know, it’s not a path breaking thing, I know people have spoken about vulnerability for a long time. I’m just sharing my story. I think, uh, the ability to tell stories, being vulnerable, helped me not be perceived as manipulative or obnoxious. And help me move along from the three quadrants on to the top, right. I don’t think I’m still there. But, you know, combination of most of the team members that reported to me being older and more seasoned, and my inability to be vulnerable before getting to the radical aspect of ideas was where I failed miserably and terribly. And Kim’s framework came to my rescue of how I was able to do that.
[00:18:27] Kim Scott: And, you know, I think what you’re saying is so important because it really is difficult, it’s hard to be a leader under any circumstances. Uh, so even if you’re sort of not an underrepresented leader, well, often the things that worked for you as, uh, as you’re sort of starting in your career, being, you know, super aggressive, pushing hard, don’t work as well when you become the leader. Because you sort of having, uh, to fight to earn respect when you’re more junior in your career. Whereas when you get a position, you’re having to reassure people that you’re not going to, uh, you know, you’re scary to people, even though you don’t think of yourself scary. So I think that’s true for everyone. I think it’s especially complicated for underrepresented leaders. And I think that’s part of what you’re talking about. And did I get that right?
[00:19:21] Amandeep Kochar: You’re absolutely right, Kim, because not only were the team members grappling with how to talk to me, how not to potentially offend me, and to report to me, and walking on eggshells. But then they also thought I was an obnoxious ass. And so, you know, they’re basically saying, we don’t know how, so, you know, then they lose their patience. Saying I don’t want to learn how to talk to him because he’s an, he’s an obnoxious ass. So I kind of lost them there by, you know, not investing enough in the background and, you know, in understanding what the culture of the company was. I think big reflection, Kim, was that I thought all cultures are ready to accept change and want change because they want to thrive and they want to, you know, make profit for profit companies and pay their taxes and have a thriving economy. But what I found out, uh, you know, with many a faux pas, if you will, was that our culture was not ready. Not only was the company’s culture, but, you know, it had a traumatic past.
[00:20:33] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:20:33] Amandeep Kochar: From some of the previous leaders that had a fear based management and leadership philosophy, um, as as well. So, you know, I remember this quote from Peter Drucker, culture eats strategy for breakfast. So while I focused on strategy and ideas and radical change, I forgot that the culture may not be ready.
[00:20:55] Kim Scott: Right.
[00:20:55] Amandeep Kochar: And so truly the culture ate my ideas for breakfast.
[00:21:00] Kim Scott: Yeah, it is really, it’s really hard. Like I’m a person, I think part of the reason you and I initially bonded when we first met is I love change. I would change everything every five minutes if I could except my husband who I want to remain the same. Um, but and, uh, and yet, um most people don’t feel that way about change. And sort of one of the things I had to learn early on is that my first job, as you were saying, is to listen to people, uh, and to solicit feedback before I gave it. And also to make myself, as you said, vulnerable. I’ll never forget being told that somebody said I was intimidating. That is so not how I understand myself and yet people were intimidated, I think not by me per se, but by my role.
[00:21:53] Amandeep Kochar: And I think, Kim, that’s so true because unless we understand where people are getting their perception from, it may not even be the people. You know, I remember this, uh, this experiment that you and I were talking about, you know, the five monkey experiment of organizational culture. Where you know, you have, uh, you put five monkeys in a room with a banana on top of a ladder and a sprinkler. And every time a monkey goes up to get the banana, the sprinklers are on and the monkeys don’t like getting wet. So, you know, they all dissipate. And then you change out one monkey for a new monkey. This monkey doesn’t know what’s going to happen when I climb the ladder. So he starts to go up and, you know, tries to get the banana and, uh, the other monkeys come and beat him because, you know, they know what’s going to happen, he doesn’t know.
[00:22:45] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:22:46] Amandeep Kochar: So he says, okay. Then they replace one, the other monkey, a second monkey with another new monkey. And when he tries to go up, all the other monkeys, including the first monkey, try to beat him up, even though he doesn’t even know why they’re beating them up.
[00:23:00] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:23:00] Amandeep Kochar: So these things of longevity of organizational trauma are so real, in my opinion. That it must be invested in to understand what that is. And you may have individuals that are open to change. But getting your organization to be open to change, I think comes from building a culture of reflection, feedback, acting on feedback, removing feedback debt, and then showcasing action around it. And making sure that information is not hoarded, but information is shared. And that was my big lesson that people took pride in their titles.
[00:23:47] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:23:47] Amandeep Kochar: And the fiefdom of information that they were sitting on. And that was my biggest challenge of getting people to move their locus of identity from information to change. Saying, if you change things, you’re more important to me, but if you’re hoarding information, you’re less important. And I thought that is.
[00:24:11] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:24:11] Amandeep Kochar: What was the hardest thing for me to do, especially with seasoned managers in my organization?
[00:24:18] Kim Scott: And so how did you do that? I mean, because that’s really hard, a culture of information hoarding is the opposite of Radical Candor. That’s a culture, how did you, what were some of the specific things you did to change that culture when you became CEO?
[00:24:33] Amandeep Kochar: A few things. First, I think I started to talk to everyone in the organization through different vehicles. So, which meant that, you know, from standard operating processes like town halls. I’d gotten to know that we hadn’t done a town hall in the last six years or seven years. I said, but that doesn’t make sense to me. But maybe it did to somebody previously. So I started to do that. You know, as you know, we’re a company.
[00:25:06] Kim Scott: Sorry to interrupt. How did you structure the, how did you structure the town halls?
[00:25:11] Amandeep Kochar: I’m glad you asked this. You know, I’m, I wanted to give a view to everyone in my company that I am not afraid of questions or difficult questions. You know, there was a practice from previous ownership whenever we did a town hall that they would request questions in advance. And I said, why? Um, I said, if they want to submit questions, that’s great.
[00:25:35] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:25:35] Amandeep Kochar: That just means, you know, I can answer them on email. So we started something called .Ask Aman Anything or AAA sessions in my town hall. So the town halls were, you know, I had something to talk about. Here’s the quarterly performance, you know, here’s some change, you know, saying goodbye to colleagues, whatever. But there were two things I did. One, I started to do a five second, um, prayer, non religious, a silent remembering to all the colleagues who had either passed away.
[00:26:08] You know, it’s an older organization, people have worked for a long time. And also to remember some parents, some friends, some pets that people had lost and you know, making sure that we took a few seconds to recognize them. And then after the one way information was given, I did my AAA sessions. Ask Aman Anything. And I gotta say those some of those questions were really tough. All the way from when are we getting our next race? Or what is happening? What do you feel about the industry? Are we going to survive? Um, and to, how can we thrive? And you know, what if I have an ethical question? Um, I said, you can call me. They said, really? Said, yeah, you know, I’m happy. We set up an ethical hotline afterwards, after I figured that we didn’t have one. But I think, you know, these little things.
[00:27:01] Kim Scott: Wow.
[00:27:02] Amandeep Kochar: Yeah, you know, of actioning those things, but also to be bold and out there and saying, hey, you can ask me anything right now. It doesn’t matter to me if you’re picking books in a warehouse of ours, or if you’re a data scientist creating software of ours, because your challenges are different. It doesn’t matter if you’re in Australia.
[00:27:21] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:27:21] Amandeep Kochar: Or UK or India. It doesn’t matter if you’ve been here thirty-seven years or, you know, three and a half weeks. It doesn’t matter. So I think those things and then the other thing that I did also, Kim, was I started to include my management team who had very little exposure to the group. I don’t know why, but we were, you know, always a one face organization of sorts. So I started to give ten minutes to my CFO, my COO, my head of operations, my head of merchant.
[00:27:58] Bringing other faces, uh, to this. And then while this was virtual, I started to write a, uh, you know, bi monthly five page newsletter. Um, and you know, I would write it with wins, with losses, introducing new team members, highlighting the good work of colleagues, whether it be on the warehouse floor or in software. And I noticed that people actually read it. You know, you can tell how many people opened it and read it.
[00:28:30] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:28:30] Amandeep Kochar: So I thought, really? And you know, the most open rate was in our service centers. Uh, and I said, hmm, very interesting. So then I also paired that, Kim, lastly, with a, with what we started, uh, some four, five years ago, that every holiday season, I would take my entire leadership team across all the, you know, warehouses. We have one in Ashland, Ohio, Moments, Illinois, uh, we have one in Commerce, Georgia. We have over a hundred people in Bridgewater, New Jersey, in Scotland and India and Australia. And I spread out my team where we would do a lunch for the people that were on the lowest end of our economic spectrum, if you will. And I made the management team and leadership teams stand in line and serve them lunch. And to bring about a conscientious nature.
[00:29:27] Kim Scott: That’s great.
[00:29:29] Amandeep Kochar: Of this perception that there was an ivory tower and a non ivory tower. Said, if our people don’t show up to our warehouses, we don’t get paid because we can’t do it. And so, you know, bringing about that awareness.
[00:29:45] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.
[00:29:45] Amandeep Kochar: And, you know, my leadership team said, really, you want us to go there? I mean, we’d love to go, but nobody’s ever sent us there because, you know, what are we going to do? I said, you’ll do nothing.
[00:29:55] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:29:55] Amandeep Kochar: You’ll serve lunch and listen to their stories, that’s it.
[00:30:00] Kim Scott: Right. I think that’s so important. I think that’s such an important point because the way that you improve a business, like is to listen to the people who are doing the work, first and foremost. Uh, it’s not, it’s really important to get to know them to drive that culture. But it’s also important not only for sort of emotional and cultural reasons, but also for practical business strategy reasons. Like if you’re not listening to people who are doing the work, then you’re not going to know how to improve the company. Because they know, they know what needs to be fixed.
[00:30:36] Amandeep Kochar: And I think that’s what I found, Kim. That many times the people who were at the bottom of the organizational hierarchy had the best ideas, and it never floated up to the top. Whether, you know, it was people were busy with other distractions. You know, I remember somebody told me this story that if you were in Kellogg’s, you know, the information from a customer or a, you know, person is that, hey, we were, you know, we would need a different flavor. And by the time it made its way up to the CEO, the answer was we need more frosted cornflakes with sugar. And you know, the information gets so, um, uh, compounded in a negative way because the emotion of the person of the team member at the bottom of the pyramid gets lost in translation. People add their, you know, strategy and their polish of words. And it loses the purpose.
[00:31:40] So, you know, I’m trying to implement this philosophy, which is an extension of the radical candid, candid feedback called conscious culture. And I believe the way to activate a conscious culture is to reverse the pyramid.
[00:32:00] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:32:00] Amandeep Kochar: Which means that bringing the power to the people who are interfacing with our customers the most. So whether it be a customer service person, they should not need to take six approvals to give a fifty dollar credit to a customer and lose out on that opportunity.
[00:32:18] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:32:18] Amandeep Kochar: To create customer delight or to improve an internal process, you know.
[00:32:24] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:32:25] Amandeep Kochar: We’re trying to tell them, ask, you know, beg forgiveness, tell me what you have done rather than waiting six months to get approval. And as long as your heart is in the right spot, right place, you know, you don’t have to worry about any kind of, you know, punitive measures. You know, you go do something, create customer delight, create employee delight, create team member delight. And yeah, you know, don’t lose that, that micro opportunity that you have twenty times in a day.
[00:32:57] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:32:58] Amandeep Kochar: And wait for an opportunity once every three months to create delight for your team member or customer. So we’re trying to extend your framework, you know, as I practiced, trying to have everyone practice Radical Candor. I’m not successful because people still give me the caveat. Oh man, I’m only saying this because you asked us to be radical, radically candid. And so giving a caveat, which, you know, is not part of it, but I think we’re making progress.
[00:33:28] But we’re extending the framework in trying to utilize your framework to activate the culture and make it more conscious of change and not be fearful for it. And making change rather than asking to make the change. So that’s kind of where we’re in our journey after bumbling and failing and, you know, I, you know, maybe I still scratched the surface, but, you know, the organization is two hundred years old. You know, I have people who, in my management team who are over twenty-five years and sometimes question, uh, everything and anything, as they should. That’s why they’re on my team.
[00:34:11] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:34:11] Amandeep Kochar: But sometimes, just sometimes, I don’t think they have done enough reflection. Um, and I haven’t, maybe I haven’t created that, uh, you know, that forum, uh, for them to come out of that and not give caveats.
[00:34:28] Kim Scott: Yeah, let people know that if you’re, um, if you’re a manager, uh, you know, on your team, then your job is to solicit ideas for change rather than to impose change upon others. You want to ask people how you should think.
[00:34:46] Amandeep Kochar: That’s exactly right. And I think, you know, my, something that I’ve thought long and about that, you know, in conscious culture, I think when culture is cautious and you’ve activated it, feedback is a tool for growth, both personally and professionally, and not a weapon for criticism.
[00:35:07] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:35:08] Amandeep Kochar: That it’s not a thinly veiled weapon behind which you can, you know, you can do anonymous feedback in, you know, one eighties or three sixties. And I think that’s the difference that I don’t think I’ve, I have successfully yet, we’re on our journey, activated the culture where feedback, whether anonymous or direct, uh, can be taken, uh, with an essence of growth and not for criticism.
[00:35:35] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.
[00:35:36] Amandeep Kochar: And I think that’s been my biggest lesson. I’ll share a personal story and I know my team is going to listen to it, uh, as well and, you know, it’s a story that I was particularly upset with, and I had to do a lot of thinking. I have a lot of team members that I do my one on one with, my direct reports. And they would talk about other team members. Which is okay, in a professional way, you know, judging decisions and sometimes I shut them down. Sometimes I want to listen to them because it’s also important to me, uh, to see that the team is, you know, singing from the same tune and if they aren’t, I want to know why?
[00:36:21] And after that, you know, we did a hundred and eighty degree feedback and for both parallel, their team members. So everyone that reports to me gets to talk about each other. And, you know, I got feedback from half of them saying a month, a month, uh, that it would be much better if you made it anonymous. And I said, no, if you can sit in my office and give me feedback about a colleague of yours, why are you afraid to put your name?
[00:36:56] Then they asked me, okay, Aman, so who all are going to see this feedback? Said, why does it matter? So I had to give them a lot of confidence that, your feedback will come only to me and HR, and people operations, as we call them. And, you know, the people that you’re writing about are not going to see it. I will give it to them for anonymity, but I’m just sharing this with in, you know, uh, in full transparency, that even though we talk about Radical Candor and they can practice Radical Candor with me about their colleagues, there is still fear about addressing it with each other.
[00:37:40] So I think, you know, while we’ve implemented Radical Candor came successfully for their teams, where I can use your counsel, is how do I implement the same level of transparency and candidness, candor, that they can practice with their colleagues. And these are, you know, senior colleagues, seasoned colleagues.
[00:38:02] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:38:02] Amandeep Kochar: Many with C level titles, but good politeness in front of growth opportunities and, uh, critical feedback.
[00:38:13] Kim Scott: Yeah. You know, it’s a hard issue and I have a strong opinion, but I’m not, it’s loosely held. I’m not sure I’m a hundred percent right. Uh, so I, at one point had a big debate with, uh, with one of my managers. I thought that in the three-sixty process, that everyone should write transparent feedback. So in other words, if you’re soliciting feedback from me about my, if my boss, I said to my boss, if you’re soliciting feedback from me about Amy, say. Then Amy should be able to see what I wrote. I shouldn’t be able to share it with my boss without sharing it with Amy too. Uh, and her perspective was that people wouldn’t, wouldn’t say, uh, you know, it would take longer, A, ’cause you’d have to think longer about how you’re writing it. And second of all, people just wouldn’t be as candid. And my perspective was, and in the end, I rolled this out on my team. She did it differently with her team, but on my team, when you did a three-sixty process, what you wrote, uh, about the person would be visible to the person. And it said at the beginning, I, you know, before writing this down, I recommend that you have a conversation with the person before putting it in the.
[00:39:36] Amandeep Kochar: Right.
[00:39:36] Kim Scott: You know, uh, a synchronous conversation. So that’s my advice. Is that you really want, you gotta work hard to prevent backstabbing on a team.
[00:39:45] Amandeep Kochar: That’s been my hardest challenge, Kim, because you know, these people, some of them have worked with each other for so long that they’re personal friends and so they, you know, employ personal friendly tactics of, you know, being coy and, you know, giving, uh, witty, sometimes passive aggressive, uh, thoughts. But not really formulated feedback and giving the opportunity to their colleague and giving them respect. So I think, you know, they’re in the ruinous empathy quadrant. Maybe overlapping with Radical Candor. They haven’t moved from the top left to the top right yet, I believe.
[00:40:27] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.
[00:40:28] Amandeep Kochar: But, um, I want, I just wanted to share with you this story. I’ll share with you something that I encountered, you know, we, your listeners. Uh, we were talking about, uh, you know, marginalized communities in leadership roles, how feedback was weaponized and potentially how to avoid it. I was a victim of it. You know, I had a falling out. I wasn’t the CEO. I was one level down from CEO and I had a little bit of a falling out with, with them. And, uh, you know, they were, um,
[00:41:04] Kim Scott: With your peers?
[00:41:04] Amandeep Kochar: A very different personality. Uh, no, with my boss, with the CEO, um.
[00:41:09] Kim Scott: Oh, okay.
[00:41:10] Amandeep Kochar: Well, it was more about, uh, you know, the people who reported to me had given some feedback to the CEO, uh, which was aimed, uh, personally, you know, the same feedback, which was, you know, there isn’t enough invested time.
[00:41:27] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:41:27] Amandeep Kochar: He doesn’t know the business enough to come up with these ideas and, you know, we don’t like him. But because my performance metrics were good.
[00:41:35] Kim Scott: Yeah, so it was sort of what I call mobbing or what, not what I call, what I’ve learned. There’s a term called mobbing. And often when someone comes in as a change agent, people try to push them out of the organization by mobbing.
[00:41:50] Amandeep Kochar: Yes.
[00:41:50] Kim Scott: Uh, and and that’s like giving a lot of feedback about them. Yeah, is that what was going on?
[00:41:55] Amandeep Kochar: I would walk in a room and everyone would go silent. And I was like, well, is this middle, school high school? I mean, what are we doing here? You know, you’d be surprised to know some of those people actually still work for me because I, many of them don’t, over the years, you know, it’s uh, lots of change. But some of them actually still work, uh, you know, on my team. And, uh, it’s incredible to see their perspective now as well. I had an opportunity a few months ago. I was, um, uh, very fortunate to be the honoree, uh, to be the publishing Titan, uh, this past year. And I had a couple of my team members introduce me. And, uh, you know, I often say that, you know, I was misunderstood or not understood, mobbed, as you say. But one of them, one of those people who was in that, introduced me for that award, and said, you know, as I look back, it was right because Aman flummoxed us.
[00:42:57] We didn’t know what to make of him. Why was he quoting poetry from fifteenth century Persian poets? Why was he, you know, giving us, you know, telling us what he read over the weekend? Why was he coming into every meeting prepared? And you know, so the, I’m going to go back to the story. So the, way that it worked was because my performance metrics were so good, so I couldn’t be fired just because some people were saying they didn’t like me. So my boss at the time did a three-sixty feedback, only for me. Nobody else on the team, just for me. In their thought to weaponize it, they thought that when that it would solidify, rubber stamp, what people were telling him and they would find a reason to, uh, you know, fire me. By the way, I still have that report.
[00:43:50] Kim Scott: Wow. And what did you learn?
[00:43:52] Amandeep Kochar: So fifty percent of the people were in the obnoxious category, fifty percent were, we like him, we love him, he’s what we need, we need to really change too, right? So, I saved my job because, you know, there was no consensus on me being, you know, uh, this person that, uh, I was being made out to by the mob. Uh, the mob did have my boss’s ear though.
[00:44:16] Amy Sandler: Can I ask, what’s one thing that you did to repair the relationship with somebody who thought you were being obnoxiously aggressive? I’d love to get a sense, just in a very practical way, even the person that introduced you for that award. What’s one tip that you have for someone who may have landed in that category, how to repair that relationship and build more trust?
[00:44:38] Amandeep Kochar: Um, I’ll give you two aspects, Amy. One for myself of how I repaired my perception, because even though the three-sixty was anonymous, you know, by somebody’s writing, I could tell who wrote what and, you know, so on and so forth. So to answer your question, I had to show up for some people. I had to put in my mind, who were the people who would actually have the ability to change, want to change, change my perception I’m in. And so I worked with them. I met all of them for personal lunches, shared, you know, my life and my story and hoping to inspire a spark, give me some grace and, you know, build a friendship, uh, if you will. I would say half of them didn’t want to, they were basically like, yeah, dude, you’re just here for personal gains, ulterior motives, we see through you and you know, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
[00:45:32] The other half actually did give me a chance and they said, okay, well, here we are. Tell us what you really want to do? How are you going to do it and what are your motives? So I did. And so the other half that gave me a chance, I showed up for them. First, I was their colleague and many of them worked for me. So I showed up for them. I showed them that I wasn’t here for punitive action, that I wasn’t going to get rid of them, even though I knew what they wrote about me, um, in that three-sixty. And so the people who remain are the ones who still work for me.
[00:46:06] And, uh, the other thing that I had to work on myself, Amy, which I found out was the most difficult, was I had to tell myself to give them a second chance, and not to be spiteful and not to hold a grudge. And so I had to first tell myself and clear my own head saying, you know what, it’s okay. So I think, I had to, uh, work on myself quite a bit and make sure, because, you know, it was easy for me to say, well, you know, half of them don’t like me, whether it be because of my accent or whatever, I could come up with twenty reasons why they wouldn’t like me. And I said, well, I’m not here to be liked. I’m not here to make friends. I’m just here to do a job. But I had to tell myself that I cannot do my job unless I have friends at work. Or if not friends at work, friendly relations at work. So that was a big growth area for me, Amy.
[00:47:15] Amy Sandler: I just want to acknowledge, um, easier said than done. That takes a lot of emotional energy and capacity. And I’m curious, you mentioned poets. I don’t know if that includes Rumi and Hafez, um, as some of your favorites, I’m just guessing. But I’m curious, is there one practice that you find, especially when you really are having to extend that grace for yourself and for others that you found especially, uh, beneficial?
[00:47:42] Amandeep Kochar: Yes. So, you know, Amy, one of the things that I had to work on myself, and again, this is going back to some of the things I had to unlearn, and I used Kim’s framework, unlearned from my South Asian culture, which was that I grew up respecting people that were older to me in age regardless of how they’re treated. And so I had to work on myself to understand that just because somebody has had more tenure than me, you know, is not a reason. The reason to give grace to them and to myself is an honest effort to make change. So when I recognized this effort in somebody, that’s when I was able to put in an effort as well.
[00:48:35] I invited everyone for lunch outside when I found that the people who gave me great feedback and the people who didn’t give me so good feedback. And the people who did not give me a good feedback, half of them rejected my invitation for work saying, because, you know, they were maybe reading the tea leaves, that he’s going to be fired anyway. Why do we want to invest in a relationship? And remember, these are C level, uh, people, right? So, and there were others who said, yeah, okay, whenever we’re together next, we’d love to go out, grab lunch and, or grab a drink. And, you know, let’s just, uh, chat. And so I think it’s the reciprocity and recognition of effort that will lead you there. So I had to put in the effort to show them that, you know, the negative feedback has not deterred me. What I want is an opportunity to understand in depth why they feel what they feel. Not to defend my position, but to learn more. And in that opportunity, perhaps bond with them as well. And so when it wasn’t reciprocated, which is okay, I said, that’s fine as well.
[00:49:44] And so again, one of the lessons for your listeners is that, um, I had to drop that appeasement attitude, you know, the flipping flopping, either completely aggressive, not worrying about this or the appeasement aspect. And that came, that comes to me very naturally from, uh, my South Asian culture. And I had to work through that, you know, I had a post-it, many people will realize in my old office, I used to have a post-it of Kim’s framework. And uh, you know, every time I saw ruinous empathy, I used to, you know, write in, that’s me. That’s how I grew up. That’s, Aman from zero to, you know, twenty-seven years of age. Uh, and then I marked my framework. So, uh, I would say, Amy, the answer here is that you take the first step and then you also respect yourself enough to wait for reciprocity.
[00:50:43] Kim Scott: Yes. I think that’s so beautifully said, because even though you and I grew up in very different cultures, I had the similar struggle. Like I grew up as a female in the South. And, uh, and so it was, uh, it was, I was taught never to say no, never to disagree, like, and all of a sudden it was my job to do those things. And I kind of had this idea that people who do those things are obnoxious. So I often did it obnoxiously, uh, when I did it. And I had to learn that I could bring the good parts of my culture, which is caring about other people and leave the sort of manipulative parts of the culture that I was, uh, grown up in, so, that I was raised in. Um, so very different, uh, upbringings, but similar outcomes, I think, uh, as leaders.
[00:51:38] Amandeep Kochar: I remember this, uh, this court that an ex president of India was also a rocket scientist and a poet delivered in, uh, the European parliament, you know, he said, when there is righteousness in the heart, there is beauty in your character. When there is beauty in your character, there is harmony in your home and at work. When there is harmony in the home and at work, there is order in your nation. And when there is order in your nation, there is peace in this world.
[00:52:11] Kim Scott: Wow, that’s really beautiful.
[00:52:13] Amandeep Kochar: So I think of me as the small part, the first part. I must have righteousness in my heart. And then I have had to work on, you know, vulnerability and connections to make sure my delivery, uh, is there. And also to walk away from appeasement saying I’m okay if eighty percent of the people know that I have the right thing in my heart, I will never get to a hundred.
[00:52:39] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.
[00:52:39] Amandeep Kochar: And I’m okay with it.
[00:52:41] Kim Scott: Yeah. And it’s hard to make yourself vulnerable enough to show people that you care about them, uh, when they may not necessarily care about you back, you know. I mean, you have, there’s some feedback you’re going to get that you have to reject in order to remain open to feedback. You have to be free to reject certain feedback.
[00:53:02] Amandeep Kochar: And I think that’s from a leadership perspective, what your framework has also helped me do is filter out that feedback. Is that feedback for my title? Is that feedback for me? Aman, a brown man in the United States wearing a turban, or is that for my work?
[00:53:23] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:53:24] Amandeep Kochar: And I think your framework has allowed me to filter out the feedback for my work, uh, and take action on it.
[00:53:33] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:53:34] Amandeep Kochar: So, uh, that I wanted to call out specifically that when your framework is utilized in a way you’re creating a culture and you must separate out feedback from yourself, from your personhood and for your title and your work. You must filter out that feedback for the work and the outcomes, reflect on it and action on it.
[00:53:58] Kim Scott: Totally, totally agree. Well, I always learn, so every time you and I speak, I learn so much. So one of the things that we like to do at the end of the checklist, at the end of the podcast, is to offer a checklist. So I’m gonna list four things that I learned from your story.
[00:54:15] Amandeep Kochar: Yes.
[00:54:16] Kim Scott: Uh, so, and you can, you can tell me if I got them right or wrong. So tip number one, and it is to solicit feedback before you give it. And you told a couple of really great examples about how you made yourself vulnerable, uh, and solicited feedback. One was this, uh, ask Aman anything at the town hall. And another thing that you said is that you allowed your boss to do a three-sixty for you and then you rewarded the candor when you got it, even though it was sometimes a bit painful. So I think those are some great examples of how you solicited feedback. How you solicited it before you dished it out.
[00:54:56] The second thing that you said that really resonated for me is that it’s important to give more praise than criticism. And you talked about sending a weekly report out that everybody read bragging about all the great things that, that different departments were doing that people might not have known about. And that can create a great culture where people know that their work is noticed and appreciate, uh, can create kind of a culture of gratitude, which I think is really important.
[00:55:26] And then the third thing that we talked about, that I think is really important, is how important it is to prevent backstabbing on your team, to encourage Radical Candor between people. And this is really hard. I’m not sure I gave you useful thoughts on that. But I think this is one of the hardest things as a leader. Because it’s so tempting as a leader, when one person comes and talks to you badly about someone else on the team, to listen. And it’s my experience that this is the one time when listening might just be stirring the political pot. So you want to encourage them to speak to each other directly.
[00:56:00] Amandeep Kochar: That’s right.
[00:56:01] Kim Scott: And then the fourth thing that I learned from you today is how hard it is to be an underrepresented leader. And you said something that is so important and beautiful, which is that you’ve got to extend grace to yourself, that means respect yourself, but also to others.
[00:56:20] So, thank you so much. Such a great conversation and such great and open and honest stories from you. Thank you so much.
[00:56:29] Amandeep Kochar: Thank you. I would, I would like to say thank you for having me. And, uh, you know, before we, we end, I do want to, um, share a personal story with you in, uh, thirty seconds. I had my, uh, my parents come to the United States, uh, and spend about four months with me. This is the most amount of time that I’ve spent with them in the last twenty years.
[00:56:51] Kim Scott: Wow.
[00:56:52] Amandeep Kochar: We lived in the same house and, um, you know I had to had, uh, have a, some really difficult conversations with them. Uh, and you know, they’re older and they’re, uh, you know, in their seventies. And so, you know, there’s a, I have to approach it in a very calm way, not to upset them. Uh, and you know, they’re physically and emotionally frail. And, you know, they take a lot of pride in what I have materially accomplished. But I had to, uh, have some difficult conversations with them about my childhood, uh, and my upbringing and, you know, the cultural unlearning and so on and so forth. So I would just like to say that your framework, uh, helped me in addressing some of those extraordinary, um, conversations. And, you know, while I wasn’t able to have all of them, but I was able to have enough of them for them to reflect on it, and for me to be able to deliver it so that I don’t fall back in the trap of ruinous empathy. I’m not going to be obnoxious. So that’s okay.
[00:58:02] Kim Scott: Yes, yeah.
[00:58:03] Amandeep Kochar: But just to appease them and their feelings, which are very important. I hold them on a pedestal before. But your framework and my practice of it at work did help me address some very difficult conversations that I had to have with them about my childhood. So bringing back to how I started out, that I think your framework is extraordinary, not because it allows professional growth and allows cultures, uh, at work, and you can activate cultures and create, you know, feedback, uh, and reduce feedback debt. But if done properly, I think a part of it is also self growth. And, you know, I’m an example, a case study. We can talk about it some other time. But I’ve utilized, uh, that framework for personal growth with my, uh, aging parents. And, uh, because I don’t have to explain to them that I care about them deeply. But I still had to work through my delivery to not upset them because of their age. But I was still able to have a direct conversation that I have not had the ability, the courage, the tools to have in some forty odd years. So, thank you very much.
[00:59:16] Kim Scott: Thank you. That is so meaningful. Uh, I think that feedback that in a company is hard to undo, but feedback that with one’s family is the hardest of all feedback that, uh, to undo. And I was reading over the holidays. Did you ever read The Corrections?
[00:59:36] Amandeep Kochar: Uh, I haven’t.
[00:59:38] Kim Scott: The novel? There’s a scene in the novel that I think will resonate for a lot of listeners. So it’s this guy. His name is Chip. He’s one of the characters in the novel. And he’s from the Midwest, but he’s living in Manhattan, and his parents are coming to visit him. And they’re flying in from the middle west. And, uh, and the scene is described as to any outside observer, this was a frail, older Midwestern couple coming down, uh, coming down the, um, you know, coming down the airport towards Chip. But to Chip, they were killers. I think that is, uh, such a description of feedback debt and family relationship. So, um, so, um, it warms my heart to know that the framework helped, uh, sort of helped you with your, in the conversation with your parents. ‘Cause that’s really, those are the most important conversations.
[01:00:39] Amandeep Kochar: Well, that’s, thank you so much, Kim, for having me. I think your framework allows people to see that, you know, their experiences, whatever they’ve suffered through, has, they have the ability to emerge as strong souls. Uh, and, you know, utilize those experiences for both professional and personal growth. So thank you for doing what you do. Thank you for your institution and thank you for having me on this podcast to you, Kim and Amy. Thank you for having me.
[01:01:11] Kim Scott: Thank you so much.
[01:01:12] Amy Sandler: Thank you so much. Yes. I also have to add, thank you for being a lamp of peace.
[01:01:17] Kim Scott: Yes.
[01:01:17] Amandeep Kochar: Ah, sweet. Thank you very much.
[01:01:19] Amy Sandler: Head to RadicalCandor.com/podcast for the show notes for this episode. Praise in public, criticize in private. So if you like what you hear, we hope you do, please do rate and review us wherever you’re listening. And if you’ve got criticism, please email it to podcast@RadicalCandor.com. We read everyone. Also don’t forget to join the Radical Candor community at RadicalCandor.Com/communitypodcast. And you can get this very podcast early and ad free. Bye for now.
[01:01:55] The Radical Candor podcast is based on the book, Radical Candor: Be a Kick Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity, by Kim Scott. Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal, with script editing by me, Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff, and is hosted by me, still Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn, Radical Candor, the company and visit us at RadicalCandor.Com.
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