Leadership sounds empowering—until you’re navigating chaos, clunky systems, and a team giving you major side-eye. Amy and Kim talk with Stephanie Chung—trailblazing exec, leadership strategist, and accidental trust-builder—about the messy reality of stepping into high-stakes roles. Stephanie gets candid about what it’s really like to walk into a company mid-crisis, how to lead teams that don’t look, think, or operate like you, and why asking the right questions beats having all the answers.
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Episode at a Glance: Leading Through Chaos With Stephanie Chung
From decoding broken sales processes to building authentic relationships, her approach blends Radical Candor with radical curiosity. Her book Ally Leadership isn’t just a guide—it’s a wake-up call for anyone ready to lead with heart, backbone, and an open mind. If you’ve ever doubted your instincts or feared saying the wrong thing, this episode is your invitation to lead anyway—and lead better.
Radical Candor Podcast Resources: Leading Through Chaos With Stephanie Chung
- Transcript
- Stephanie Chung and Associates, Inc. | LinkedIn
- Stephanie Chung
- The Radical Candor Guide to Leading Through Uncertainty
- Ally Leadership: How to Lead People Who Are Not Like You
The TLDR Radical Candor Podcast Transcript: Leading Through Chaos With Stephanie Chung
[00:00:10] Amy Sandler: I’m Amy Sandler. And today we are talking about leading in turbulent times, what it looks like to lead with clarity, with compassion and courage when things are uncertain. And we are so fortunate to have a guest who is a speaker, a C-suite executive, a thought leader, Stephanie Chung. Stephanie is author of Ally Leadership: How to Lead People Who Are Not Like You. Stephanie has held senior leadership roles in the aviation and hospitality industries, including President of JetSuite and Chief Growth Officer at Wheels Up. Stephanie is known for helping companies and people rethink how they operate and grow, especially in moments of change. So a heartfelt welcome to Stephanie.
[00:00:59] Stephanie Chung: Thank you so very much for having me. I am excited. I think we’re gonna have such a good conversation. I’ve got three women get ready to talk about Radical Candor and,
[00:01:08] Kim Scott: Leadership.
[00:01:09] Stephanie Chung: And Leadership. So thank you for having me.
[00:01:14] Kim Scott: Thank you for coming. I knew that we had to have you on the podcast when you and I had a Zoom call a few weeks ago.
[00:01:21] Stephanie Chung: Yes. We definitely had a good, it was like an instant sisterhood. I literally, I was like, oh my gosh, she’s my tribe.
[00:01:31] Amy Sandler: It’s so interesting, even just those points of connection and synergy, it’s interesting to think about what is it that draws the two of you to each other? Just getting to know you briefly right now, Stephanie. Just that desire to share your own experience in a way that I think is helpful for other people, which is certainly one of Kim’s goals. You have been brought Stephanie into leadership roles during times of change and challenge, and I think that’s the focus for our conversation. Obviously, we’re gonna go in a bunch of different directions, but I think people who are listening to this podcast that are in such a moment of change. Like, when you arrive in a new company, whether in your, as a full-time role or as a consultant as a speaker, like where do you start in getting oriented and getting grounded first for yourself, but then for the people that you’re helping out?
[00:02:18] Stephanie Chung: Yeah, that’s a great question. So a lot of times before I oversaw companies prior to that, on my way up in my career, I was overseeing sales teams typically. And the thing that’s interesting about being a head of sales is that usually when you bring in a new head of sales, it’s because the old head of sales, like the numbers weren’t coming in, something wasn’t going right, something’s gone horribly wrong. And so you replace that leader, you bring in a new head of sales. And so I say that to say that usually when we are coming in, the CEO will usually have some pretty strong opinions about the sales team, and usually they’re not very favorable because the sales team hasn’t hit their number in a little bit.
[00:02:58] So I’m coming into an environment where there’s a lot of opinions from the C-Suite about the sales team, and usually not very positive. Therefore, the discipline that I have to have is not to just hear their side of the story or not just take that one perspective, right? So the first thing I have to do is sit and observe and make my own decision. Is it the performance? Is it the people? Is it the process? Is it the product? There’s a lot of ifs that I don’t know the answer to. If I just listened to that one piece of, just from the CEO, it’s gonna automatically be the people. And so in order to not do that, I’ve gotta step back a little bit, and so I have to focus in on something.
[00:03:39] But usually it’s not the people that I focus in on first because I need time to watch and observe for myself. But what I can do is dive in and look at the process, right? Because usually, and especially with sales teams, a lot of times sales teams aren’t hitting their number for a whole slew of reasons. It could be the people, it could be the product, it could be the process, et cetera. But oftentimes in any organization, I can promise you, I can go into any organization and find places of redundancy that are not beneficial for the sales team. Meaning either the process is clunky or too many divisions doing the same thing, or the salespeople, the way that I look at it is the salespeople are the only people in an organization where their number one job, and quite frankly, their only job is to bring in revenue.
[00:04:25] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:04:25] Stephanie Chung: Yet, so many companies have salespeople doing non-revenue generating activity. So I could look at the process quickly and realize, okay, this thing is clunky. The salespeople are spending 60% of their time on non-revenue generating things. How can I get this process streamlined? So I guess that’s a long way to answer your question, Amy, but I’m looking at a couple different things because the CEOs want ownership, right? The number has not been coming through. So I gotta be able to jump in and start to give some kind of illusion of activity, right, without firing everybody. And so therefore I can focus in on the process and then while I’m still observing the people and talking to the team, because there’s two sides to every story.
[00:05:08] That’s actually one of the first pieces of advice my father gave me when I first entered into leadership. And my dad was a master sergeant in the US Air Force, and I asked him, dad, I really wanna do a good job. What advice would you give me? And he said, there’s two things. One, always protect your team. And two, always know there’s two sides to every story. So I go into any company looking for that second side of the story. ‘Cause I’ve heard from the CEO or the board or whoever. So I’ve heard one side of the story. I need to hear the other side of the story and that tends to buy me a little bit of time as I assess what’s going on with the team and the personnel itself.
[00:05:43] Kim Scott: It’s so interesting ’cause so often the numbers, the performance numbers are a lagging indicator, not a leading indicator. The score takes care of itself. And if you take the time to understand the process, I imagine you notice a lot of inefficiencies. Salespeople having to spend hours and hours generating proposals or whatnot, other common inefficiencies. And then as you get to know the people, you can begin to make assessments about maybe the people are the, how often would you say the process is really the driver of poor performance?
[00:06:16] Stephanie Chung: Yeah, the process always plays a part. I’ve had a hundred percent of the time, somewhere along the lines could be better, right? It just tends to be clunky and so there’s that. But you actually hit upon an interesting point, Kim. Because sometimes it’s not just the sales process, sometimes it’s the internal process that delays the sales right from happening because it’s, it’s,
[00:06:36] Kim Scott: Legal review.
[00:06:37] Stephanie Chung: Coming from, as a former salesperson, there are certain departments that were like, they’re the sales prevention department, right? Because they’ve got all these rules and compliance and whatnot. So I’m looking at process for the sales team for sure, but I’m also looking at what processes are holding up and clogging up the revenue generating opportunities for sales. And the other piece is also what other departments, because people tend to wanna have sales write this, have sales do this, put this report together, and so they don’t even know all of that. So you can get some information. So yeah, it’s coming in as a head of sales, which same as when you’re coming in as heading up the company. There is a lot of dynamics that you’re trying to get in order before you start, in a way, a change and stuff, right?
[00:07:21] Amy Sandler: And when you talk about the dynamics, I’m just imagining, Stephanie, even just from my own experience being new in an organization, here you are, you have been tasked by the CEO, like you said, or the board, hey, fix this problem. How do you, what’s the sort of number one way or the first thing you’re gonna do to start to build trust with these folks who might see you as someone who’s, so much of Radical Candor’s about trust, and I’m sure you become expert at starting to build trust with people who might not trust you at first.
[00:07:50] Stephanie Chung: Absolutely. The very first thing that I always do, no matter what team I’ve taken over is I, and I have a meeting just with my team, so just with the direct reports or their reports as well, but no other department is allowed in. It’s just me and them. The reason why that was, is super important to me is it gives me an opportunity to do a couple things. One, to actually share a little bit about myself, how it is that I lead, that type of thing. So I get to have, they get to see my personality, not just what they’ve seen on paper or a resume of what they heard, but now we get to have a real interaction, which I think helps continue us on the trust journey as well.
[00:08:25] But then the other piece that’s equally as important is every single team I have ever overseen, I will always say to them, why it is that I’m there, right? Because again, if I look at the sales team, it’s usually because our numbers are not where they need to be. One of the reasons why I’m here, but I also talk about what it is that we’re gonna do together as a team. I’ll set the rules of, listen, on this team what’s important to me is that we are each other’s keeper. We have to have each other’s back on this team, and so we’re all going to either win together or we’re gonna all lose together, but it’s our choice, right?
[00:08:58] And so by setting the stage, they understand at the very beginning, I’m expecting you to function as a team and to know, hear it right, hear from me. So there’s certain things that in that very first meeting together, I’m going to say things. And that’s why I don’t want other people in the room because I want them to hear from me what my expectations are, how I am as a leader, what I expect. It could be something like, listen. I don’t expect you to work on the weekends unless that’s part of your job. I may respond to an email on the weekend. It doesn’t mean that I’m expecting you to respond back to me during the weekends.
[00:09:31] So it could be all kind of things that I just want them to start to realize, huh, because I’m going into this with them already having an expectation or preconceived notion. So I’ve gotta take it over, if you will, with this is who I am, this is why we’re here, this is what I fully expect that we’re gonna be able to get accomplished together and blah, blah, blah, blah. And then open it up, the floor up, to be able to answer any questions that they may have. So I think the first setting is so incredibly important, and I’ve done that with every single team. And then the rest of it is I have to be consistent with what it is that I said day one, right? So that trust.
[00:10:07] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. And what about when you’re coming in, I imagine when you came in as president of JetSuite, there, a lot was happening. What were some of the additional things that you needed to do in that situation to build trust?
[00:10:20] Stephanie Chung: Yeah. It’s interesting because sometimes we’ll use that particular organization as an example. There was transition happening, not so much, I think what you’re thinking 2022. There was like a whole lot, but especially in aviation, right? It was just, it was crazy. But we were trying to transition the company from a commodity to more of a luxury product. So the transition had to happen as well. It was one of the reasons why I was there. And now you’re looking at the entire organization and the process and the procedures, and not just with what’s working, not what’s not working, but how’s the perceived commodity versus luxury versus, so you’re looking at a whole lot of different dynamics. And then you’re also looking to see, do I have the right people in the right place? You’re taking a mindset of commodity and all of a sudden you’ve gotta change that to more of a luxury stance.
[00:11:07] That’s a different type of person or a different mindset that you have to have with the employees. And so you’ve gotta make sure you’ve got the right people in the right place. One thing I will say is I don’t make any hasty decisions at the beginning because I’ve watched, I’ve been on the receiving end of that, right? Where it is just like you have a new boss and the boss doesn’t listen to anything or anybody, and they’re just like coming into guns blazing, right? Trying to mark their territory and prove that they should be there. It is disastrous when you have to work under that. Take a second, do some observations before you come in and start trying to play superhero and change everything because at that point, it’s all about you, the leader about, trying to get the result that the team.
[00:11:46] Kim Scott: Yeah, that’s such an important point. And it seems like, I think of myself as a person who is, uh, who does not make snap judgements, especially about other human beings. But when I was CEO for the first time, my co-founder came to me and he said to me, Kim, you’re awfully fast to flip the bozo bit. And I was like, oh, now I am that leader who makes their mind up about people so quickly and doesn’t change when there’s new evidence. I don’t change my mind about people. And so that was like one of the hardest bits of feedback.
[00:12:24] I, I didn’t exactly solicit this feedback, but I got it. I should have been, so clearly I wasn’t soliciting enough feedback. So for me, and I was so stressed, this was, I was a first time CEO. So it was hard to hear that feedback. It was emotionally hard. I’m like, that’s not how I think of myself. That’s not how, who I wanna be. That was an example, for me at least, of getting some Radical Candor in a stressful situation. How do you deal with both getting, soliciting feedback in a high stakes situation and also giving it?
[00:12:58] Stephanie Chung: Yeah. So do you mean soliciting it for myself?
[00:13:01] Kim Scott: Or from your team about, for me, that’s one of the first things that I try to do to build trust is to get people to tell me what I’m doing wrong. ‘Cause I know I’m screwing stuff up every single day. And if you tell me, then life is better for both of us.
[00:13:18] Stephanie Chung: Exactly.
[00:13:19] Kim Scott: So I don’t keep doing it.
[00:13:20] Stephanie Chung: Exactly. And I agree with you, right? I think when you open up that kind of vulnerability, because it’s interesting, that’s actually another thing that I talk about the first day when I have time with the team, is to say there are gonna be things, I’m brand new here. I don’t even know what the bathroom is, right? I just got here, right? So there’s gonna be things, I may ask questions that make no sense, and so I throw it out there on the front end. You have every right, and I am expecting you to feel free to correct me, right? Because I may not know, I may use the wrong verbiage, I may not understand how the culture is here, like all of that stuff. So I really, again, if I’ve laid out the idea of we’re a team and blah, blah, blah. I’m asking them and expecting them to give me candid conversation and candid information.
[00:14:03] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:14:03] Stephanie Chung: Um, the flip side is true though too. As I also go in and I apologize on the front end, there is going to be something I do or say that will probably offend you somewhere along the line and just know that’s not my intention. And so when I do it, not if, when I do it, I would ask that you would right then and there, stop me and correct me, right? Don’t talk about two weeks now or talk about somebody else. Stop it right then and there and let me know. And I believe when you lay that kind of vulnerability out to any normal functioning human being, they’re gonna respond in a way that automatically builds trust, right? So that’s one way that I do it. The flip side, it’s funny, one day when I think about candid, Radical Candor, right? Or just that kind of conversation, I remember having it, there was two incidents. When you were talking, when you were asking me, I was thinking about this.
[00:14:53] I remember having it, not so much with the team that I was leading, but with a bunch of colleagues, right? So we were all leaders and I was in a situation where it was many years ago, and the airline that I worked for, we had to do a major layoff. It was just like, so hard. Everybody was just, those things are horrible, right? Sometimes they’re needed, but they’re just horrible. And so what happened is afterwards they brought in a psychologist to have all the leaders come in and we could talk, cry. You could do whatever. You couldn’t do it that week when all this was happening. Now you could do it. And so it was all of us colleagues, I’ll never forget this day. So the psychiatrist was basically asking us, where are we at on the five stages of grief? Where are we at in this, in this process? And I remember for me, I was, most people were hovering around number two or three. I was like, I’m at five. No, like, I’m, I’m done at this point.
[00:15:49] Kim Scott: Five is acceptance, one is denial.
[00:15:51] Stephanie Chung: Like I’m, right? So, I remember all of my colleagues were just like, and they just went to town. How can you be so insensitive? I can’t believe it. And it just took me off guard. Like I really was surprised by their reaction.
[00:16:07] Kim Scott: I’ve never heard of the five stages of grief getting weaponized for someone.
[00:16:12] Stephanie Chung: Right, get beat over the head with it. And I remember, I think the psychiatrist started to feel sorry for me, such that she kind of jumps in at one point and she says, Stephanie, can you tell me a little bit about your background? I said, I grew up a military brat. I moved every two years of my life. And she said, because there was only two of us that were five and two of us, the two were former military kids. So we, we, we were able to process it faster. It didn’t mean we didn’t go through the stages, just went through it faster, right? Anyways, she opened up the floor. We had a great conversation, me and all of my colleagues, and I remember saying that to ’em. It was like, it’s not that I didn’t have all those emotions. I just didn’t stay there as long as you did. And it’s not that I’m right or wrong, it’s just you move on to the next thing.
[00:16:56] And the military, your mission gets completed, you gotta roll to the next thing, right? So my mind was programmed like that. I remember that time because it really was a very interesting, it was intense, obviously. But it also, I learned a lot about myself during that time and I learned a lot about others because I just assumed everybody was at the same stage I was at. Who knows who’s someplace else. And what I had to do, the lesson that I got out of that was to learn that not everybody processes the same way. And so I have to slow down a little bit to realize that they may not be at the same place that I’m at. And so what can I do to help ease that burden, help them as they go through their process? And that was one of the biggest lessons early on in my leadership career that I’ve learned through that particular situation.
[00:17:43] Kim Scott: Yeah. And not to judge or be judged.
[00:17:45] Stephanie Chung: That’s right. That’s right.
[00:17:50] Amy Sandler: It is such a great story, Stephanie, because I’m just thinking about bringing your book into the conversation Ally Leadership: How to Lead People Who Are Not Like You. And there’s so many ways in which we can be, I think, similar and different. And one of them, what you’re talking about, is this sort of emotional processing. And when you were sharing that, one of the things that comes up in our Radical Candor workshops is we’ll have people self-identify, like what’s the mistake that you tend to make the most if you’re not practicing Radical Candor? Is it that obnoxious aggression, high challenge, low care? Is it that ruinous empathy, high care, low challenger, manipulative insincerity where neither caring nor challenging.
[00:18:34] And I would say the majority is often ruinous empathy. And one of the things that comes up is that folks, that the mistake they make the most obnoxious aggression, but we sometimes do tend to judge people that might process or communicate differently. Kim and I will often talk on this podcast how we process emotion. We talk about emotion differently, and so I think it’s such a great example, just to tee into your book around that there’s so many different ways that people process emotions, and I love that the psychiatrist or psychologist asked you, tell me a little bit more about you. Because that gave them a lens into how you got there.
[00:19:11] Stephanie Chung: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for that. And it’s interesting because Ally Leadership, when I wrote the book, so Ally stands for, it’s an acronym, it stands for ask, listen, and learn, you take action. The part of how to lead every people who are not like you, listen, today’s workforce like good lord, the leaders of today are like, it’s a lot.
[00:19:30] Kim Scott: It’s a lot. It’s a hard job. It’s always been a hard job.
[00:19:33] Stephanie Chung: It’s always been hard, you know? So when we think about it, we’ve got six generations at work, and they all have different expectations, different perspectives, different work ethics, and so on and so forth. We’ve got women as the majority of the population. So we communicate differently. We see things differently. We have all the ethnic groups growing, non-ethnic groups shrinking. So that changes the dynamic at work. Then you have people with neurodiversity, different able bodied folks, LGBTQ plus live of trying to lead people and they’re not like you, the leader, right? So when we think about that, it requires a different style of leadership or a different level of leadership. Like I do believe knowing how to lead everyone these days or people who are not like you or the time and season that we’re in, you can either step up and level up or you can simply be left behind.
[00:20:21] So you don’t have a lot of options just because you may not agree with somebody or understand their culture or see things the way that they see it doesn’t mean that they’re just gonna go away. You’ve just gotta figure this out. And that’s why I wrote the book. It’s no one’s going away, right? So no matter how hard you try, it’s just not gonna happen. What you’re gonna have to do as a leader is figure out what is it about, and that’s why ask, listen, learn is so important. You can’t come in with your own preconceived notions. You just can’t. And so you have to become, I’m less concerned about an empathetic leader.
[00:20:55] I think we should all, just as human beings, be empathetic, but I’m more focused on a curious leader. Because if you come in with curiosity, then by default, you’re gonna ask questions you don’t already know the answer to. And we know as leaders in leadership, a lot of times leaders ask the questions that they do know the answer to. And that’s not vulnerable. That doesn’t build trust. That’s, that’s just manipulation, right? And so how do we get folks to really have a curiosity? And once you do that, Amy, it’s going to help people, they’re gonna let you meet them where they’re at. That’s really the key, and that’s how you build trust and that’s how you build high performing teams, is I want a team that’s gonna challenge me and get under my skin because you’re making me really think, you know, about the way I saw the plan going.
[00:21:42] And because those kind of teams, when they’re different they’re, listen, the numbers are clear about diverse teams, right? They’re 19% more likely to be profitable or 70% more likely to go into new markets. The numbers are clear. Just look it up. Google it. The more diverse teams simply outperform traditional teams, right? And diversity, not so much in race and gender, or not just race and gender, but diversity of thought. Intellectual diversity is powerful. So all of that is important. But what we don’t talk about is how do you lead teams that don’t think alike, act, lookalike, have the same background, same culture, same, like how do you lead this much change in diversity, right? I’m gonna say it’s not easy leading a bunch of people who don’t think alike and have the same background.
[00:22:27] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:22:28] Stephanie Chung: But if you as a leader can be curious and meet them where they’re at, and ask and listen and learn, nobody’s looking for you to have all the answers. You use the collective to actually come up with the answer, right? That’s what makes it so powerful. And what, knowing that you don’t know everything, nobody gets everyone. Nobody. And, and nobody wants to hear your way, how you see things, right? So your job is to come in with the goal. This is what we need to get accomplished, how we do it, that’s up for discussion, right? And that’s where you’re inviting everybody to bring their perspective to the table.
[00:23:01] Kim Scott: And I love your question that you just shared with us about, I know I’m gonna say or do something that offends you. My, so I’m gonna ask you to tell me when I do that and not talk to other, that is such a good ask question. For me at least, I often have led teams where that didn’t, I would say it wasn’t that, oh, I guess it’s the same thing, but I didn’t look like them, was how I felt when I, they were majority men. Uh, so I was one of very few women. And there, there were definitely a couple of times, I think being the underrepresented leader has its special challenges, right? Like there was one time when I asked the, this guy had, his project was not going well.
[00:23:49] And so I was talking to him about it and I asked him at the end of the conversation, what can I do or stop doing that would help me get this project back on track? And he leaned in, he said, the problem here is you are the most aggressive woman I ever met. And I’m like, I’m the most aggressive woman you ever met, and we’re in an aggressive industry and your job is to deal with these people. And so your problem is not my aggression, your problem is my gender. And in my case, that’s not changing. And so that’s what I would, but what I actually said was nothing.
[00:24:18] Stephanie Chung: But those were great thoughts though.
[00:24:20] Kim Scott: It’s always good to, and I think that part of the reason I said nothing is that, it was tricky. It was a tricky situation. ‘Cause I wanted to be, I wanted him to feel like I was genuinely open to feedback. And pushing back too hard on him, felt like I would be shutting him down. But at the same time, by not saying anything to him, I was not being a good ally for the other women at the company. And he was gonna treat me, and I was his boss and the co-founder of the company, if he was gonna treat me that way, how was he gonna treat the women who worked for him? It’s not good. That’s the TLDR on that story. It was really quite bad. And in fact, we wound up getting sued because I had created a hostile work environment for women, which obviously was not my intention, and yet that is what happened. I think your question struck me is that when you come in as an underrepresented leader, that’s a great question to ask.
[00:25:18] Stephanie Chung: Yeah, and it’s interesting because you’re right, but there’s a couple things. One, and going back to the book, if we think about leading people who are not like us, right now, all of us are gonna fall under that predicament. Every single one of us are gonna lead people who are not like us.
[00:25:32] Kim Scott: If we are leading people who are exactly like us, we have failed in our hiring process.
[00:25:38] Stephanie Chung: Exactly right. I really, I’m so passionate about this right now. There’s so much noise that has taken the positivity of diversity and made it a trigger for some, exhausting for others, so on and so forth. And that’s why I always say, I don’t spend time talking about the numbers, because you can look it up, Harvard, Deloitte, McKenzie. All of them have enough facts and figures to just cut down the conversation of whether teams that are, that think differently, look differently, speak differently, and have different backgrounds if they perform or not. They, every, every aspect they perform. What we as leaders have to really realize though, how am I gonna meet people where they’re at?
[00:26:17] Because sometimes, I know for me, coming into, listen, I come from the aviation industry. Especially on the private aviation industry as well. We say it’s primarily men. A lot of them come from the military, right? So there’s just a lot going on. And so teams that I have overseen, I, I even opened the book up, I know that you’ve read it, can open the book up with a story from one of the first teams I had to oversee. I’m looking at this all white male team, you know, they’re like former fighter pilots. The testosterone’s off the chain. And I’m standing there in front of them thinking, ugh, boy, they’re so different.
[00:26:52] And they’re looking at me like picking their teeth, like where’d she come from. That could have set the stage. And it’s a team that I didn’t want, my CEO was like, come over here and fix this team. So I didn’t have a choice. Yeah, I came into it in a really interesting point. The reason why the CEO brought me there is ’cause the team had never hit their number. In 14 years they never hit their number. After the first year of us together, they hit the number. And yeah, and it’s because, and that’s actually the premise of ask, listen, and learn, you take actions, because we were so different that I needed to just, okay, just reset this whole thing. But then also back to your point, back in the day, men weren’t used to having women as bosses.
[00:27:30] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:27:30] Stephanie Chung: And so there, I definitely had situations similar to yours. And then you add the fact on that I’m a double, person of color. So there’s just a whole lot of dynamics that need to be managed. I do agree with you that there are, there are a lot of times, like in your case, where you had a lot of thoughts in your head of what you would have liked to have said. My encouragement for all leaders right now, because all of us were, it’s no longer just us women. Men are like, got it all figured out. So everybody’s got that same dynamic. Making sure people know, hey, I might say something that’s gonna be offensive. Please, by all means, stop me. I’m not here to be offensive because I believe this whole thing is a head and heart issue.
[00:28:07] We’ve been focused on the head part of it, which then makes it very performative, right? But it’s also a heart issue. Because if you go to the average person who’s not like you, whatever that means for you. And they can tell that your intent is good, but you really are trying to understand, or you’re really asking questions ’cause you really wanna know. Most people are gonna meet you where you’re at because they’re gonna see you’re trying, because most people would rather you ask and at least talk to me. Versus don’t talk to me at all, afraid you’re gonna say the wrong thing, right? So that’s really the dynamic that tends to be at play, speak a lot with women. And women have to listen. I wish there was an easier way that I could say this, but women at this season, you’re going to have to just feel the fear and do it anyway.
[00:28:57] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:28:57] Stephanie Chung: Right? You’re gonna have to say what you’ve gotta say, and no one’s gonna give you the space. We hope that, people can say, can be jump in as an ally and help block and tackle, but that doesn’t always happen. And I’ll never forget, I had an incident one time when I was working, in this meeting. And my boss and I had a disagreement. He was just going to town with the whole thing. And so when I was standing my ground proving my point, talking back as to what I saw and why I heard what he said, but didn’t agree with what he said. And so all that dynamic was going on. It became very lively. And so I remember when the meeting was over, the rest of the team sat there and said nothing like, it was all male and, I’m the only person of color and everybody else sat in the meeting and said nothing. Then when we had a break, they’re all like, oh my god, Steph. I agree with you. I completely agree with you. That was a lot. And I don’t know how you handled it. And I remember saying to them, shut up. Shut up. I don’t wanna hear it. You, when you had an opportunity,
[00:29:54] Kim Scott: You were not an ally.
[00:29:55] Stephanie Chung: You said nothing. Exactly. So don’t sit here and tell me now how you agree and blah, blah, blah. That’s,
[00:30:00] Kim Scott: Say it in the meeting.
[00:30:01] Stephanie Chung: And so when we, any of us are faced, but primarily this happens a lot to us women, when we’re faced with those situations, you’re gonna have to like, no one’s coming in to save you.
[00:30:11] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. It’s so interesting. I was walking with a team a couple of weeks ago and it was a pretty diverse team in terms of gender, in terms of race, in terms of the generations. We were talking about Radical Candor, and there was one guy who raised his hand. He reminded me of my dad a little bit. An older white man. He said, whenever I say what I really think, everybody thinks I’m an asshole. And so I don’t dare open my mouth. And he said he felt like he was being unjustly put in the obnoxious aggression box when he was trying to be radically candid. And I wish that I had this conversation with you earlier. ‘Cause if I could have given him your question, I think I would’ve helped him enormously. Because he was, but he sometimes, he came off as confident and he, he sometimes was unjustly accused of obnoxious aggression.
[00:31:02] Stephanie Chung: And I do think we have to start giving people a little grace too. There’s so much, we’re all trying to figure this whole thing out. And I, and when I wrote the book, I felt like a lot of times every book that I had seen up until that point, was a book towards two white men saying, this is how you lead women and people of color. It was like, okay, we gotta go deeper and wider because the whole world’s changing. And it’s not just white men. They know how to lead people who are not like them to do this, not just them. And I do believe that most normal functioning human beings want to see everybody win, right? But there, here’s what tends to happen, is people get, in this gentleman’s case, right? He’s using asshole. Other people may say something else, right? But most people feel like they’re an ally.
[00:31:46] Kim Scott: Most people intend to be an ally.
[00:31:48] Stephanie Chung: A hundred percent. And it’s a small percentage that don’t. But most people will tell you that they’re an ally to somebody or something. Or some group. Tell me what you’ve done to show your allyship this week, or people with disability, what, they can’t give you any receipts. And so what’s happening is people are starting to self anoint themselves as an ally with absolutely no receipts to back up the statement, right?
[00:32:11] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah. Good intentions don’t make you an ally.
[00:32:13] Stephanie Chung: They don’t care. And that’s why I got so mad at that meeting when they’re like after the fact, right?
[00:32:18] Kim Scott: You gotta speak up.
[00:32:19] Stephanie Chung: Because this is the season that we as leaders have to be super courageous. We have a lot on our plate. This kind of stuff is heavy lifting. You’re a leader, you’re built for this. And so you’re gonna have to suck it up, cowboy. And this is tough stuff. And same with the women when, when they’re like, I don’t know what to say, it’s, it’s not going to get easier. I have this question when I speak, and women will say, how do I use my voice so that when I get to the C-suite, then I’ll use my voice. It doesn’t work that way. Because I always tell people different level, different devil. When you get to the C-suite, it is like game on.
[00:32:50] And they are much smarter, much wiser, much sharper with the tongue at that level than they ever were when you were director, VP, moving on up. So you have to, wherever you are, you’ve gotta get used to using your voice where you’re currently planted. ‘Cause then by the time, that’s one of the things that’s gonna help you move up a career. But then when you move up that career, it’s not all of a sudden people are gonna stop and listen to you because you’re in the C-suite. It doesn’t work that way. So people just have to get really courageous with your is your yes, your no is your no. You gotta stand for something and whatever that is, you gotta lean in and stay in when things get uncomfortable, right?
[00:33:27] Amy Sandler: One of the things I love learning about you is your interest in background in neuroscience and i’m just putting myself in the position of the person who, you know, is talking to you after. And yes, I was with you, but I was afraid to speak up. I think everyone can relate to that feeling. Also understanding kind of the neuroscience behind it. And I’m thinking right now just the SCARF model from David Rock, is like status and certainty and autonomy, relatedness, fairness. That feeling of like, if I say this thing, the sort of ROI, like, I’m making a calculation, like the risk to me is higher than the reward. So what kind of small tips or sort of muscle building practice would you recommend for people of like how to actually speak up in the meeting? What’s the way that I can get started in a way that feels like not totally into my panic zone?
[00:34:15] Stephanie Chung: Yeah. So one of the easiest things to do is just ask a question, right? So instead of making statements, just ask questions. Because the question is disarming. Where things get crazy is when you make a statement and then people go like, they’ve got a counter, and it just goes off rails real quick. But instead, if you just ask the question again, curious versus not, that’s gonna help shed some light. The other thing is, you’re right in the book, I actually spent the beginning of the book talking about the science behind, why are we resistant towards people that are not like us? Because a lot of it is the way that our brain is wired and we have to rewire this thing, right? So giving you some specific examples.
[00:34:55] When our brain sees a face, whether it’s in a picture upfront, whatever, in person, it’s gonna automatically put that person, that face, in an in group or out group. That’s just, it’s natural instinct. That was something from our days back in the caveman days, where it helped protect us. But that same instinct now is not necessarily protecting us, right? Now it’s like it’s, it can actually hinder us, and it’s because it’s not always right. Now we’re not gonna change the instinct. It’s wired in our brain. It is what it is. We can change the information we feed the brain so it’s not so quick to put people in the outgroup. You’re not like me versus the ingroup, you’re like me.
[00:35:34] So that’s where I want people to focus. The natural instincts are there, biases are there, sometimes they’re good for us, right? So let’s not act like it’s a negative all the time. All these things help protect us. The brain designed to help keep us, right? So there’s good things about it, but there’s things that are outdated that we have to rewire, so it’s more relevant to today’s times. A friend of mine, his name is Dr. Philippe Douyon, he’s a neuroscientist, and he and I spent a lot of work, doing some work together. One of the things that he said is the brain is constantly evolving. Back in the day it may have been afraid of a saber tooth tiger chasing us down.
[00:36:10] But as it evolves, now that same brain may be afraid of rejection or how do you say things or saying the wrong thing, right? It’s just evolved to a new field. And so we are not, none of us are afraid if a tiger chases us down the street unless you live some place where there’s tigers in the street, right?
[00:36:27] Kim Scott: Unfortunately, not very many. The tigers are not doing so well.
[00:36:32] Stephanie Chung: But we do have the fear of rejecting or saying the wrong thing. Knowing how to reprogram your brain and to rewire it is a real thing. And that’s why I spend time doing, when, whenever I talk, I spend time with this because there’s little things that people can do in order just to override the brain to give it new information. An example would be go and spend time with people who were not like you, right? Like every, no matter where you live somewhere close by is a town where there’s people who don’t look like you, don’t have the same background. They have different restaurants than you, different history than you. Go to their restaurants, go to the culture center, go to the art exhibit, go to, uh, if there’s a carnival or festival or whatever, go merge yourself into areas and people and dynamics that are not familiar to you.
[00:37:20] That’s one way that you override your natural instinct and then you’ll realize, oh, I don’t have to be afraid. I thought it was this way. I actually spent some time over there. And those are the kind of things that start to soften your heart. Where you then become a leader who can lead people who are not like you, because you want people who are gonna challenge your thought process, right? That’s gonna be, at the end of the day, it’s not DEI, it’s ROI, generator executive. So I wanna have the team that’s going to best set me up for being able to produce the biggest result that gives me a reputation that I know how to perform and to produce teams that know how to perform, right? There’s a whole lot of things in it for you as the leader, but it starts with you having to realize you don’t know everything and you need to surround yourself with people who don’t think like you, act like you, have a background just like you. You have that type of competence as a leader and you can lead that type of team, you are unstoppable. You’re unstoppable.
[00:38:13] Kim Scott: Agree, I love it. Following, Stephanie, I think also like I, I hate to keep harping on your question, but your question that you ask is a great way to just going out to your, question is super efficient and that’s gonna help you encourage the people around you to disrupt your bias and then you’re gonna learn to think differently.
[00:38:36] Stephanie Chung: Right?
[00:38:37] Kim Scott: It’s like learning how to stop thinking fast and start thinking with your deeper cognitive functions. I love it.
[00:38:43] Stephanie Chung: That’s right. Exactly. And it’s not, and it’s not as hard as people, one of the things I tried to convey in the book, I was really focused on, is I didn’t want people to think this is cumbersome. Don’t over complicate it. Bad, hard, you know, and, and so we’ve been built to believe, but then, because what happens is people get afraid of a mistake or thing.
[00:39:02] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:39:02] Stephanie Chung: And then the whole system stuck, right? Because we can’t move forward because of the fear of saying the wrong thing, even though you said nothing. So it’s a vicious cycle, and I just want people to realize that the, our five year olds do it every single day. They’re curious. They’re asking questions they don’t know the answer to. They ask a lot of questions. And so if you just observe them, that’s our natural instinct. It’s life that beats it out of us, right? But those are the things that naturally tend to happen. So we just gotta go back to the basics of really wanting to ask questions to get to know people, not what you think about them, but I really want to know, you ask some of the most basic questions. One fun question that I like, I, and I don’t know, I feel like this, by the way my lighting is like,
[00:39:47] Kim Scott: That’s all right.
[00:39:47] Stephanie Chung: Yeah. Something’s going on.
[00:39:48] Kim Scott: The sun is shining on you.
[00:39:51] Stephanie Chung: It’s not a businessy question, but if you’re spending time getting to know people, I love to ask the question, if you were a time traveler and you could either go forward and meet your descendants or backwards in time and meet your ancestors, which would you choose and why? That tells you a lot about people, when they go, oh, you know what, actually I would, and then you get to hear their story as to why they would wanna meet the ancestors or the descendants. Somewhere along the line, in that answer, you’ll have commonality with them, right? Now, all of a sudden you can start to compare notes.
[00:40:20] Kim Scott: I love that.
[00:40:20] Stephanie Chung: But I just don’t want, it really isn’t, we’ve made it complicated in theory, but it’s,
[00:40:26] Kim Scott: I love it. Um, so we like to wrap up with practical, tactical advice. What do you do to make sure you’re really listening with the intent to understand, not to respond? How do you because that is, it’s easier said than done actually.
[00:40:40] Stephanie Chung: Yeah. It’s so easy. It’s helpful. You know, so if somebody says something to me, I’ll go, okay, let me just repeat back what I heard, correct me if I’m wrong, right? So it’s just a way that I can kind of engage and make sure that I’m picking up what they meant to lay down.
[00:40:51] Kim Scott: By the way you said that is really important. ‘Cause sometimes I’ll tell people to repeat back what they heard and they repeat it back in this super sarcastic way. And so you wanna make sure that they are, that they understand they’re supposed to say, I wanna make sure that I understand. Tell me if I’m wrong.
[00:41:09] Stephanie Chung: That’s right. Exactly. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s one way that I find to be really helpful when I’m trying to listen to somebody. Also, it’s interesting. Silence is a powerful thing, right? And a lot of times, especially ’cause I have a sales background, one of the things I usually have to teach salespeople is stop talking so much. It’s okay for silence. Silence could be a good thing. And the reason why that’s so powerful is because there’s a couple things. One, your brain, we all talk on average 130 words per minute. And that’s if we’re talking on the faster side. Uh, but the brain can process like over a thousand words per minute.
[00:41:43] So the brain’s moving faster than what we normally can talk. And so what’s really important is be intentional about your pauses so that people’s brains can catch up, right? Because it’s just words coming at them. When I speak as a professional speaker, I talk about the science of a conversation and what’s going on in the brain and the body when a conversation’s happening. So it’s important that you use pauses in a powerful way. One, it gives your listener’s brain an opportunity to catch up and make sure it’s following with your lead. But then the other part is when you’re silent and you’re observing people’s body language and facial expressions, and some of the most powerful things said are actually unspoken, right?
[00:42:23] Because you’re watching their nuances and their facial expressions, and so therefore it will reaffirm what you think you’re hearing or it can make you go, hmm, that was different. And then it allows you to now check in. I, I know what, help me understand what was that, right? Now all of a sudden, because listening is so active. It’s not just about hearing, but it’s visually and listening to the words and the fluctuation of their voice.
[00:42:45] Kim Scott: And I think that’s so important, what you said about if you think you’re noticing something on someone’s facial expression, check in and ask. One of the things Amy and I have learned is that I often totally misinterpret her facial expressions.
[00:42:59] Amy Sandler: But it makes for good conversations.
[00:43:04] Stephanie Chung: There you go. Exactly.
[00:43:05] Kim Scott: Give voice to what you think you’re saying.
[00:43:07] Amy Sandler: Yeah, and it’s also so much of it, especially mediated through cameras, you don’t really know what’s happening. Rather than saying, Amy, you’re angry, versus, hey, what’s going on for you? Like, how did that land for you? So I think, again, it just reinforces what you’re talking about with curiosity. Before we close Stephanie, first of all, how can people find you?
[00:43:26] Stephanie Chung: Thank you. StephanieChung.com is probably the easiest way, and from there you’ll see all my social handles or um, anything. So StephanieChung.com is the easiest way to.
[00:43:35] Amy Sandler: Let’s get the book going.
[00:43:39] Kim Scott: How to Lead People Who Are Not Like You.
[00:43:41] Stephanie Chung: Exactly. This is the book for all of us, and no one gets everyone.
[00:43:46] Kim Scott: Unless you’re hiring you’re twins, which you should do.
[00:43:48] Stephanie Chung: That’s right.
[00:43:50] Amy Sandler: And then this is a bonus question, but since it’s rare that I get to speak with someone who’s an expert in aviation, any just words of wisdom for people navigating summer travel and airport challenges and flights, and just some reassuring words for our audience.
[00:44:06] Stephanie Chung: Yeah, there is a lot and I’m on a couple of boards where we’re having conversations ’cause there’s a lot going on in aviation right now. Here’s what I would say. One, don’t over pack, okay? But I’m always surprised how people, it just, it holds up everything if you’ve never flown before. But, so don’t overpack. Get there early. Right now every airport is pretty much fuller, congested, and TSA and just all the stuff. Flying can be certainly very stressful. If I was talking to airlines and sometimes I do where I’m like, okay, you guys did, we need to have some customer experience retraining or something because everybody needs to step up in this area. But as travelers have fun. When you’re traveling, it’s something that’s super important, which you wouldn’t be going, right? And one of the things when I used to lead companies is I would always say to, to the now, obviously I was, at this point it was private aviation, right?
[00:45:04] So it was a little bit different than airlines. But I would always tell the employees, listen, we’re part of their story. Wherever they’re going is important enough for them to buy a ticket, get on a plane, or flying privately, it’s even more if you’re gonna spend that kind of money. So we’re already part of this story. It’s up to us to determine how this story will be told. And so that’s what I would say to anybody in any kind of travel and hospitality, because you’re right, it’s summer, people are gonna be going some place with their kids and we’re all part of this story. If we’re in the hotel industry or car rental or airlines or whatever, what do we want them to say?
[00:45:39] That’s the key, because they’re gonna have a vacation or they’re gonna have that business trip. At the end of the day, people are traveling because whatever it is that they’re doing is really important enough for them to get on a plane or otherwise you just do it via Zoom, right? And so we’ve gotta make sure that we take into account that we are part of their story. It’s a life changing moment for them or else why do it, right? And it’s up to us to determine what that story is gonna be. I would also say that for leadership too, right? I am working on a speech I’ve gotta give soon at one of the large leadership conferences, and that’s really one of the ways I’m gonna close it out as I’m playing around with it is, as leaders, people are gonna talk about what it was like to work for you.
[00:46:20] So you determine what they’re going to say. And we don’t think about that ’cause we’re so busy running around like our hair’s on fire, that we’re not really thinking about this long term. I know people who have worked for me years ago, and the ones that will work for me years from now, I want them to say a certain thing. And that means I have to live up to that. Because we’ve all had bosses where we’re like, oh my god, did you remember so-and-so? Like, you know, we don’t want that kind of narrative attached to our personal brands.
[00:46:49] Kim Scott: I love it.
[00:46:50] Amy Sandler: Thank you for being part of the Radical Candor story today.
[00:46:53] Stephanie Chung: Thank you.
[00:46:53] Amy Sandler: Love this chapter and your reflections. And I also love what your dad said about protecting your team. What great words of wisdom.
[00:47:00] Stephanie Chung: This was so much fun. This was the best call I’ve had all day.
[00:47:04] Amy Sandler: Alright, well take it.
[00:47:05] Kim Scott: Loved it. I feel the same way. So great.
[00:47:08] Amy Sandler: Awesome. Everyone get Stephanie’s book, Ally Leadership: How to Lead People Who Are Not like You, wherever books are sold. Go on over to RadicalCandor.com/podcast. You can find the show notes for this episode. You can also watch this episode as a video on YouTube and Spotify. If you like what you hear, of course, we hope you do. Go ahead, rate and review us wherever you’re listening, and if you’ve got feedback, you know we love that too. Go ahead, email podcast@RadicalCandor.com. Finally, if you wanna get our newsletter straight in your inbox, go on over to RadicalCandor.com/news. You can sign up there. Take care.
[00:47:48] Kim Scott: Thanks everybody.
[00:47:51] Amy Sandler: The Radical Candor Podcast is based on the book, Radical Candor: Be a Kick Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity by Kim Scott. Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal, with script editing by me, Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff, and is hosted by me still, Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor podcasting music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn, Radical Candor the company, and visit us at RadicalCandor.com.
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