What It Takes to Grow: Radical Candor Meets Hollywood with Adam Richman

Great films aren’t just about talent — they’re built on trust, clarity, and the kind of feedback that helps people grow. Kim and Amy talk with producer Adam Richman (Gran Torino, The Burial,) about his company's new film, Grow,  and how Radical Candor fuels creativity in Hollywood. 

Watch the episode:

Lessons From Producing Grow With Radical Candor

Adam shares why flattening hierarchies strengthens collaboration, how constraints spark innovation, and why gratitude creates teams that thrive. He also reflects on the joy of making Grow, a family film full of heart, hope, and giant pumpkins — coming to theaters October 17th. 

If you want to create cultures where feedback is welcomed, relationships matter, and creativity flourishes, this conversation offers the inspiration to get started. 

Radical Candor Podcast Resources

• Transcript
• Grow: Official Trailer
  
• Double Nickel Entertainment
• Grow the Film

The TLDR Radical Candor Podcast Transcript

[00:00:00] Kim Scott: Hello everybody and welcome to the Radical Candor Podcast. I'm Kim Scott.

[00:00:10] Amy Sandler: I'm Amy Sandler. I am so excited to welcome today Adam Richmond to the podcast. Adam is the co-founder and principal of Double Nickel Entertainment, which is the production company behind films such as Grand Torino and The Burial and what is sure to be a fall classic, Grow. Grow is.

[00:00:33] Kim Scott: Grow.

[00:00:33] Amy Sandler: Grow is coming out. We're already singing the theme song; we can't stop ourselves. Adam has a career spanning film, television, games, and media, and has really built a reputation for bringing bold character driven stories to life. Also successfully building and scaling large dynamic teams and product.

[00:00:53] He is an entrepreneur, he's a producer, a creative leader who really thrives at the intersection of business and art. And along the way, Adam has learned quite a bit about practicing Radical Candor in the unique high-pressure world of film production.

[00:01:11] I have to say I am smiling quite a bit because Adam is also a very good friend to both me and Kim. In fact, I think it is safe to say that this very podcast would not be happening without you, Adam, because.

[00:01:24] Kim Scott: That is true.

[00:01:24] Amy Sandler: Yes, you are the link between me and Kim because we each knew you separately while we were at business school, and then you introduced me to Kim. So heartfelt welcome, Adam Richmond.

[00:01:37] Kim Scott: Welcome, Adam.

[00:01:39] Adam Richman: Thank you. Thank you. I have to say it's, it's, it's you, you two are the best Shiddach I think ever.

[00:01:46] Amy Sandler: So, can you, can you translate that, translate that, that is.

[00:01:49] Adam Richman: Mar Mar in Yiddish. That's, you know, the best union, the best marriage You two are meant to be, and it's great. Thank you for having me, Kim and Amy.

[00:01:56] It's great to be here with you as someone who's known you both for so long and so well. I am really just so proud of all the amazing radical work you two have been doing on this podcast and throughout the Candor universe, really making the business world a better place to live. So, thank you.

[00:02:15] Kim Scott: Thank you Adam. Adam, you are always a person. You're very good at showing that you care personally. I love that about you. So, thank you for being here.

[00:02:23] Adam Richman: You are. You are too. Kim and Amy. You too. I think that's what also connect's, is a big connection between the three of us.

[00:02:31] Amy Sandler: Yes. Well, to broaden the conversation out to our listeners beyond the three of us,

[00:02:37] Kim Scott: love us, love us.

[00:02:41] Amy Sandler: Let's bring you into this circle of caring personally and also challenging directly.

[00:02:46] Kim Scott: Yes.

[00:02:46] Amy Sandler: Uh, and, and one of the things we're going to get into. Adam, the specifics of this new film Grow, which we're so excited to learn more about, but wanted you to really kick the conversation off because I think you have a really unique perspective on the intersection of radical candor and creative management, just the creative process overall.

[00:03:07] We were kind of joking at the top that we were some of the few liberal arts majors at business school, but you have made this to be like a superpower in the business world. So, tell us more about your own perspective, Radical Candor, creative management.

[00:03:22] Adam Richman: So, I remember when we were all in school, were you guys with me and Teresa Amebile Creativity Course Manage Managing Creativity?

[00:03:30] Were either of you in that course with me?

[00:03:31] Amy Sandler: No. I took it, but I don't think with you, I just remember the phrase, creative destruction.

[00:03:36] Adam Richman: Yeah. It was such a great course, and it was about what it takes to set up a work environment where creativity and creatives can thrive. For me, it was kind of a transformative course in terms of my thinking and my career because it made me think, wow.

[00:03:50] There's actually an application and ideas that you can apply to creative management that will make it flourish and to talk about that for a few minutes, and then the intersection with radical candor, which I think makes creative environments flourish in a way that is really important.

[00:04:08] The most important thing in creating a creative work environment that's successful is hiring the right people. That's the first step to make sure,

[00:04:17] Kim Scott: yeah,

[00:04:17] Adam Richman: that you're creating the right environment. You know, it's like a marriage. If you don't choose the right partner from the start, it's going to be so much harder. And I think next, it's about not micromanaging those people.

[00:04:29] Setting up an environment for those colleagues where they feel real ownership over their scope of work, which then will give them a real sense of ownership in the project that you're working on as a whole.

[00:04:40] Kim Scott: Sorry, I'm going to interrupt you 'cause.

[00:04:41] Adam Richman: Yeah.

[00:04:42] Kim Scott: Not you're, thank you for the invitation.

[00:04:44] Adam Richman: Yeah.

[00:04:45] Amy Sandler: That's how Adam shows care personally.

[00:04:47] Kim Scott: Yeah. Uh, that's how I show I'm interested Yeah. As I interrupt you. But I think you don't wanna micromanage them, but I think you also don't wanna ignore them. And I think that's a mistake that a lot of managers make is I'm gonna.

[00:04:57] Adam Richman: mm-hmm.

[00:04:57] Kim Scott: I'm just gonna hire the right people and never spend another minute with them.

[00:05:01] And that's like not a recipe for,

[00:05:02] Adam Richman: and that's not what I'm suggesting. I mean, I think.

[00:05:05] Kim Scott: No, I know.

[00:05:05] Adam Richman: I think what I'm suggesting is. You know, you absolutely wanna manage them, but you don't wanna micromanage them and you wanna also collaborate with them. And I think that,

[00:05:13] Kim Scott: yeah, you don't wanna manage them. You wanna be a partner with them.

[00:05:15] Adam Richman: You wanna be a partner. Exactly. And, and there's a really big difference in that and it's, it's an important distinction. So, thanks for bringing that up. I think it's really about encouraging each member of your team to take big swings. You want your team to have failures, you want to be in a culture where they can fail, especially in a creative environment, because that also means they're having some outta the park successes too. And you know, of course that is assisted in creativity in general, and the workplace is assisted by putting constraints around creativity. Yeah. Creativity thrives when there are clear boundaries to experiment within. It flounders when there are none and the sky is the limit.

[00:05:55] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:05:56] Adam Richman: Creativity does not function well in an environment like that.

[00:05:59] Kim Scott: And I think one of the constraints has gotta be, we've gotta admit when something's not working. Right? And I think that's part of the Radical Candor and the creative process. And it's tempting to think that you're raining on someone's creative parade to say.

[00:06:14] That's not working. Or somebody's trying to be funny. Say maybe it's funny to someone else, but I don't think that's funny. Like, and, but it's hard to do that. Like it's very discouraging when you've written a joke for someone to tell you it's not funny, and yet it's an act of love. So, say more about that.

[00:06:30] Adam Richman: Well, I think it's a total, I think you've described it accurately. I think it's a total act of love and without the ability to have those discussions, to have the discussions where you are, you are giving candid feedback, there's no point. Like the environment can't flourish.

[00:06:48] And I think that's really where Radical Candor intersects beautifully with a creative environment. Um, because intrinsically the environment, I think to foster creativity, people have to, at the very, very base foundational level care about each other.

[00:07:05] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:07:05] Adam Richman: And they have to care about the pro, genuinely care about each other, genuinely care about the product. So, they feel they can experiment, they feel they can fail, and then also wildly succeed.

[00:07:15] But a huge part of that is what you're talking about, Kim, which is knowing. That there'll be genuine candor in the feedback and it's possible. Yeah, because you've created an environment where you feel safe.

[00:07:27] You feel like everyone really cares about each other, so you feel like you can give genuine feedback. You feel like you can fail, which then ultimately allows you to succeed.

[00:07:38] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:07:38] Amy Sandler: I'm curious, like as you're talking about this frame, just to sort of make sure that I'm summarizing it accurately. You talked about like hiring great people. Kim obviously talks a lot about that in the book. Radical Candor, we focus on that, not micromanaging, but also not being an absentee manager, being what we might call in Radical Candor thought partner, but maybe, and this is like a creative partner as well.

[00:08:00] And then the, the idea of, of innovation with these big swings, but also having the constraints. And in fact, I have found just for myself as an, as a individual creative person, and also collaborating, that it is very often those constraints that cultivate innovation. And I'm curious, like, do you have an example that pops to mind of like when it was either a time constraint or a resource constraint or somebody broke their foot and now we have to get a, you know, another actor on?

[00:08:28] Do you have any stories of when the constraint actually got you to an even better creative outcome?

[00:08:34] Adam Richman: I have a great example, and it's actually an example from Grow. When you all see the movie, you'll see. We have just the most phenomenal production design in Grow. An amazingly talented woman named Jamie Lapsley designed Grow for us.

[00:08:48] And the movie, just so everyone knows, is about a young girl who essentially is a pumpkin growing savant. Um, so, so Kim, you're gonna love this movie for many reasons, but a huge reason is that there's a lot of orange.

[00:09:03] Kim Scott: It's a giant orange pumpkin.

[00:09:04] Amy Sandler: I was gonna say, there's orange everywhere. Can't.

[00:09:07] Adam Richman: There's orange throughout this movie, so I'm just really excited for you, Kim, because you know it's gonna be really good for you.

[00:09:12] Kim Scott: It's my movie.

[00:09:12] Amy Sandler: It's a movie.

[00:09:13] Adam Richman: Yeah, it's your movie.

[00:09:13] Amy Sandler: We might get a new sweatshirt for Kim.

[00:09:15] Adam Richman: Yes, yes. So, um, so, you know, we originally had a different designer on the movie, but that designer was talking about a production budget for production design that was just so way outta whack with what we could afford and just sort of the way we were putting together the movie. And one of the other producers on the film. We shot the film in Scotland and one of my partners, Wendy Griffin, the amazing, Wendy Griffin, had this idea to bring Jamie onto the show.

[00:09:41] Jamie, when I think about putting constraints around creativity and then making creativity flourish within those constraints, Jamie is a master at that. She's just amazing because she will work with what you have and then figure out how to within what you have, create magic. And I think you know, when you, when you don't have.

[00:10:03] Clear definitive lines. You don't really, you don't really know where to start and you don't know where to end. And I think when you're dealing with creative people, creative projects, you want them to know where the starting line is, where the finish line is. Cause otherwise you can't really get a lot of stuff done.

[00:10:21] Kim Scott: I think if there's no constraints, then there's the process of saying, this idea doesn't work for this, or this idea is too expensive for this, or whatever. The process of saying no to things is really important to the creative process, but it's discouraging to say no to things. It's discouraging to kill ideas. And, and yet, in order to come up with something great, you've gotta kill a lot of ideas. And that's part of the reason why I did,

[00:10:47] Amy Sandler: Kim, can I do the purple flag on the aggressive language? You know, you didn't wanna like be, it's like what's a, what's a not as violent thing?

[00:10:55] Kim Scott: Well, I didn't say kill people, kill people, kill you. You, well, I don't know?

[00:10:58] Amy Sandler: Remember, you wanted to get away from violent language. Wanted to kill the violent language.

[00:11:02] Kim Scott: Yes. I don't know. You're, you're right about the purple flag. Yeah. I don't have an answer, but I think you've got to eliminate certain ideas. You've got to execute them. You gotta squash 'em like a bug. Let's just double down on the violent language today.

[00:11:19] Amy Sandler: Oh my gosh.

[00:11:21] Kim Scott: I don't know. I don't know how to say it.

[00:11:22] Amy Sandler: Well, Adam, I'm I at, can I build on what Kim is is saying? 'cause what was coming up for me, Adam was when I was in film school, Lo, those many years ago, and one of the things we would talk about, and this is where I think Radical Candor really comes in about being clear and being specific.

[00:11:39] So I think one of the things you described with Jamie, your designer, was like in these clear constraints, like it was like very clear either about here's what the budget is, here's what the time is, here's, you know, sort of the end state. But in between all of that, get us wherever you wanna go.

[00:11:52] So there's something about the clarity, which I think is so.

[00:11:55] Adam Richman: mm-hmm.

[00:11:55] Amy Sandler: You know, intrinsic to Radical Candor.

[00:11:57] Adam Richman: Yeah.

[00:11:58] Amy Sandler: The other thing is, that was coming up was we had this joke at film school that you'd write a script, and you'd give it to an executive and it'd be like. Love it, but it needs more heart. You know,

[00:12:08] Kim Scott: What the hell does that mean?

[00:12:10] Amy Sandler: so, like how do you, like, how do you like give it more heart? Like do you like that mean write a heart on it.

[00:12:15] Adam Richman: What does that mean, right?

[00:12:15] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:12:15] Amy Sandler: So, there's sort of this very vague, like just needs more heart.

[00:12:20] Adam Richman: Yeah.

[00:12:21] Amy Sandler: Does that spark anything for you of like what good feedback?

[00:12:24] Adam Richman: Well, first of all I find that yes, it sparks a lot of things. I mean, and sort of it sparks that some people in creative industry have a real tendency to speak very generally about like, this isn't working, this character isn't getting to where he or she needs to be, or, this isn't funny enough. It's like, what isn't funny? What isn't working? Let's be really specific so that we actually can.

[00:12:49] Amy Sandler: Yeah.

[00:12:49] Adam Richman: Make change. And I think the other thing, just back to Kim's point for a second about also saying when things aren't working, I think there's also a way to say something isn't working with the parameters that we have.

[00:13:04] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:13:04] Adam Richman: So here are the parameters that we have and how do we take this idea and make it within, make it work within those parameters. Right? Yeah. You know, and I think like Jamie was a great example of that to say, you know, we need these giant pumpkins. And we only have X amount of money and X amount of time.

[00:13:20] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:13:20] Adam Richman: To put them together. And these things actually don't exist. Um, and I think, you know, for me, one of the,

[00:13:25] Amy Sandler: how did she make the giant pump? Now I'm so curious.

[00:13:28] Adam Richman: Like, well, you know,

[00:13:29] Kim Scott: Pumpkins grow so fast.

[00:13:31] Adam Richman: They do grow really fast.

[00:13:33] Amy Sandler: Grow, grow. sorry. That's the song I can't Stop, stop it.

[00:13:35] Kim Scott: Especially in, so I have a neighbor, sorry, now I'm go going down a, a distraction. But it's a good story.

[00:13:40] Amy Sandler: down a pumpkin patch

[00:13:41] Kim Scott: I have, I have a neighbor who grows giant pumpkins.

[00:13:44] Adam Richman: Wow.

[00:13:45] Kim Scott: He starts growing them in the summer.

[00:13:47] Adam Richman: Where you live now? A neighbor now.

[00:13:50] Kim Scott: A neighbor now?

[00:13:50] Adam Richman: Yeah.

[00:13:51] Kim Scott: In Los Altos, California, yeah. And he will lie on his garden chair and watch the pumpkin grow. It grows that fast. Like these things are five feet tall, six feet, they're huge pumpkins. Um, yeah. So, I'm,

[00:14:06] Adam Richman: wow. that's very cool.

[00:14:07] Kim Scott: for the growing pumpkin.

[00:14:07] Adam Richman: So, you've gotta, you've gotta take him to the movie.

[00:14:09] Kim Scott: Yes. Believe me, my neighbor is all about this movie. I have. I have another question about radical candor and the creative process. Cause you went back to that class, and I think there's a reason why I didn't take that class. The reason I didn't take that class. Is that there was something to me at the time that felt oxymoronic about managing creativity.

[00:14:34] Like there's something I think in my soul that feels like power is gonna destroy creativity, hierarchy is gonna destroy creativity, and yet you can't. You need a little bit of organization in order to build something together. Like if we're gonna collaborate on a creative project. There need to be roles, there probably need to be directors and managers, but you need to figure out how to lay that power down in order for the power not to destroy the creativity of the people on your team.

[00:15:05] Do you have thoughts on that?

[00:15:07] Adam Richman: Yeah, I mean, I completely agree, and I think one of the things that I try to do when we're making a movie is, you know, there's definitely a lot of hierarchy in film production. So, you know, and

[00:15:16] Kim Scott: yes,

[00:15:16] Adam Richman: I often try to destroy that.

[00:15:18] Kim Scott: good,

[00:15:18] Adam Richman: because I think that it alienates people. It doesn't create the culture you want of collaboration, of caring, of candor, you know, it's sort of the nemesis of that.

[00:15:29] And, you know, I'll give a really specific example, which is kind of funny. But you know, if you come to a movie set, there's something called any movie set or television set.

[00:15:37] Amy Sandler: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:38] Adam Richman: There's something called Video Village.

[00:15:40] Amy Sandler: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:40] Adam Richman: And what video village is, is is this area. It's usually tented and usually there's coffee and blah, blah, blah. Um, and it's where the director and the producers sit, and that's where when you're shooting something the feed comes, and you actually get to watch it as it's being shot. As it's being

[00:15:58] Amy Sandler: mm-hmm.

[00:15:58] Adam Richman: Captured, you know, and sometimes the stars will come by and, you know, the studio executives and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I just hate it. I absolutely hate it. You know, and we all have our chairs.

[00:16:07] Kim Scott: I can, can imagine. It's like the most hierarchical, like the most petty, hierarchical place on the planet.

[00:16:14] Adam Richman: I mean, we have the chairs with our names on them. So, you know, what I try to do.

[00:16:17] Amy Sandler: are some chairs bigger than others?

[00:16:19] Adam Richman: Some chairs have really good cup holders. Some chairs have less good cup holders. But you know, what I try to do is totally flatten that. When we start a production, it's that everyone is welcome at Video Village. There are no chairs with people's names on them. You know, there's no,

[00:16:33] Kim Scott: anybody can come get a cup of coffee like ants.

[00:16:35] Adam Richman: Exactly.

[00:16:36] Kim Scott: You know, croissants for the stars. Lesser croissants for the...

[00:16:39] Adam Richman: yes. You know, it's hierarchy without question is, I mean, yes, Kim, what you said is exactly, exactly accurate. There needs to be some organizational roles so that you actually can manage. And make things.

[00:16:53] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:16:53] Adam Richman: But that's different than sort of embracing a hierarchy like we're talking about right now.

[00:16:59] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:16:59] Adam Richman: Which is really the nemesis of creativity.

[00:17:01] There's no question.

[00:17:02] Kim Scott: Yeah. I mean, a role has got to be a job, not a value judgment. You know, with

[00:17:07] Adam Richman: well, put, well put.

[00:17:08] Kim Scott: As a director, you have a job to do, but it doesn't mean you're better than all the other people on this set.

[00:17:14] Adam Richman: Absolutely.

[00:17:23] Kim Scott: It is really funny. I don't know. I wonder if you have a theory about why this is. Like, I've done Radical Candor talks in so many different kinds of environments. I've gone to West Point; I've gone to Wall Street.

[00:17:33] Adam Richman: I was there?

[00:17:34] Kim Scott: like, yes, yes, yes. You were there.

[00:17:38] Adam Richman: It was awesome. It was awesome.

[00:17:38] Kim Scott: Yeah, so all these different environments and the most hierarchical place I ever have been in my whole life was Hollywood. At one point somebody said they wanted to create a TV show of Radical Candor. Got on a plane and I flew down, and I met someone, and I was rolling my rollie bag and somebody raced up to me. Grabbed my bag from me and said the talent doesn't carry their own bags. And I'm like, what kind of weird world have I entered?

[00:18:09] Like it was, it was in what is going on? I did not expect for Hollywood to be the most hierarchical place on the planet. Then I've ever been it.

[00:18:20] Adam Richman: You're so spot on. It's just, you know what, it's years and years of people sort of building that hierarchy that needs to be ripped down. And I think it's,

[00:18:31] Kim Scott: I have a theory,

[00:18:31] Adam Richman: it's, I would love your theory.

[00:18:33] Kim Scott: It could be dead wrong, but I think when you're doing creative work, your ego, you pour your ego into it. And then when you, and, and, and your ego gets bruised in the creative process badly, often. And so, I think there's like, there's something about that. Um. And then you get some, so your ego's been bruised and bashed, and then you get some power, and then you like, ha has to, because you're wounded, you build these walls around yourself or something.

[00:19:05] I don't know. Um, maybe that's too, you,

[00:19:07] Adam Richman: You know what's interesting about that comment,

[00:19:09] Kim Scott: egoistical. Hollywood people.

[00:19:11] Adam Richman: I think it's the people in the middle, you know, who are insecure. The people that I've worked with. I mean, you always say in Hollywood and, and this is something I definitely do, like when you find the good people, you stay with them.

[00:19:22] Like because, yeah, because the good people are truly amazing and they're not insecure. They don't have anything to prove. It's just about the work and the collaboration. It's about the partnership and I, I guess what I've found with the number of. The, you know, the dozens and dozens of people that I've worked with over the years, whether they be actors or directors, or producers or executives, you know, the ones that are, are super successful.

[00:19:46] In many ways, they don't have anything to prove. So, they're all about the work, you know, which is just so refreshing when you might think, oh, I'm, I'm working. I'm, I'm gonna be doing a movie with Clint Eastwood, which as you both know, we did Gran Torino and you know, Clint just the greatest guy to work with.

[00:20:03] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:20:03] Adam Richman: I mean, just so down to earth, like, no, you know, no air about him. It's really, it was about the work. So many other people in my career that I've found like that, again, because those are people that, they don't, they're secure in who they are. They don't feel like they have something to prove. There's a lot of insecurity in Hollywood.

[00:20:21] Amy Sandler: Yeah,

[00:20:21] Kim Scott: yeah.

[00:20:21] Amy Sandler: Yeah. And, I'm wondering, like, one of your strengths that I just deeply admire as a, as a human and friend is just how, how good you are at cultivating and continuing friendships and staying in touch. And specifically, also mentoring younger people and helping them, dare I say, grow, in their careers and in their personal development.

[00:20:43] And I'm just thinking as you're saying this, you know, I'm thinking of my own kind of foray into entertainment and being told the, the summer between my first and second year during business school by somebody, you know, oh, let me, I'll tell you who all the, you know, people you need to avoid are, you know, the really sort of cruel, bullying people, you know, which is a strange advice to get when you're going into a a business.

[00:21:07] I don't know how much has changed, hopefully some of that. But I'm wondering, given just how much entertainment has changed in terms of these sorts of big distribution systems and that now people don't necessarily need to go as traditional roots like. What advice would you have for someone who is, you know, starting out their career or is in more of a mid-level who does have something to prove, like how can they do that in a way that feels still aligned to, you know, acting in integrity?

[00:21:34] Adam Richman: It's such an interesting question and I guess just, there's something I wanna say in response to the first part of what you said, Amy, which is, you know, mentorship. No matter what the field, you know, in business and entertainment is a business, mentorship is so important and I just think we all owe it to the world to each other, to ourselves, to, to mentor, to give back, you know?

[00:21:56] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:21:57] Adam Richman: We were mentored, all of us were,

[00:21:58] Kim Scott: yes.

[00:21:58] Adam Richman: All of us had mentors. And it's just, it's such an important thing to do and, and to help the next generation to lift them up.

[00:22:06] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:22:07] Adam Richman: And, and to help, help them find their path. So, I just wanted to, just, just wanted to say that, but I mean, I think, you know. I, I think the thing about, uh, about that kind of toxicity is just, and this, this is something, you know, which is, I think at the core of Radical Candor, e either side of it, obviously the caring part of it, but also the, the, the giving feedback part of it, is that it all starts with kindness.

[00:22:37] You know, like it has to start with kindness. And our careers have to start with kindness, you know? And so, if you lead, if that's the foot you lead with in everything you do, it's gonna be good. Yeah. And I think that's a real problem in business, no matter what the sector is, that many people are not leading with kindness.

[00:22:58] Kim Scott: That is the truth. And it seems like, it seems like people not leading with kindness is on the ascendants. Like there was a, when I wrote Radical Candor, I felt like there was sort of this shared understanding that that it's all about collaboration. That command-and-control dominance doesn't work. And I think that is that that debate is opening back up there.

[00:23:25] The command-and-control crowd is getting loud right now.

[00:23:28] Adam Richman: That is so true. And let's hope that goes into the background again as quickly as well.

[00:23:33] Kim Scott: Well, let's have the debate though, like I think one of the things. That I wanna acknowledge is that I was talking to someone recently about how do you create these sorts of environments where people do their best work?

[00:23:46] And I said, look, I have a very clear perspective, my belief, but you know, there are companies that have these command-and-control leaders that are successful. Like, let's not pretend like it can't work.

[00:23:59] Adam Richman: It's true,

[00:23:59] Kim Scott: but let's understand why it works in the short term and what the long term, problems it creates are, have the real conversation.

[00:24:10] Amy Sandler: I, I wonder, Kim, like just building on that, Adam, from your own experience, whether it's in terms of fundraising or whether it's dealing with some challenges on the set, what advice might you have or what have you found, as a way of ensuring that that toxicity doesn't come into the set. I mean, you talked about the village and that there's sort of equity there, but in terms of actual behavior or giving feedback about like, this is the culture I wanna have on the set, how have you navigated that?

[00:24:43] Adam Richman: I think, I think there's a couple important points to answer that question, Amy. I think it's really important to set the table at the beginning of either a project or a business or when someone's coming into an organization to really set the table well, I mean, not the three of us, because what I'm about to say is like so many of our colleagues from HBS, you know.

[00:25:06] Kind of laughed at all the softer lead courses and the OB courses, the three of us didn't. But all that stuff, that is sort of at the core of what makes successful culture in business. And so, I think setting the table properly is so important. But I also think,

[00:25:22] Kim Scott: so, I love this metaphor of set the table, but can you give a specific example of what you do to set the table?

[00:25:28] Like what does that mean?

[00:25:30] Adam Richman: Yeah.

[00:25:30] Kim Scott: For you.

[00:25:30] Adam Richman: So, what, so I'll give again, I'm gonna go back to grow because it. Because we, we just finished.

[00:25:35] Kim Scott: Good.

[00:25:35] Adam Richman: And, and, uh, so set the table. Setting the table with Grow is having a director like the incredible John McPhail, like we had on Grow. We Have on Grow, um, who at the end of every day goes around and thanks every single person working that day.

[00:25:56] Kim Scott: Wow.

[00:25:57] Adam Richman: And these are hundreds of people and

[00:25:59] Kim Scott: Yes.

[00:26:00] Adam Richman: Gives a safe hug to every single person.

[00:26:03] Kim Scott: Wow.

[00:26:03] Adam Richman: That creates an environment where everyone feels valued from the first AD, Who's at the top of the food chain?

[00:26:11] Kim Scott: What's an AD?

[00:26:12] Adam Richman: An assistant director.

[00:26:13] Kim Scott: Okay.

[00:26:14] Adam Richman: Um, down to, uh, down to the caterer or a production assistant mm-hmm.

[00:26:20] From our stars, like Golda Rosheuvel from Bridgeton to

[00:26:24] Amy Sandler: mm-hmm.

[00:26:24] Adam Richman: Our extras. It's making everyone feel valued and I think that lesson is so easily transferable to

[00:26:34] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:26:34] Adam Richman: A corporate environment, you know, and it doesn't cost anything. You know what it, what it,

[00:26:39] Kim Scott: well, I mean, it does, it, it, it's hard to remember to express gratitude and appreciation.

[00:26:43] It doesn't cost money, but it does cost effort. But you get a lot out of making that effort.

[00:26:49] Adam Richman: You get a lot out of it. And I guess that goes back to proper organizational behavior training for executives.

[00:26:55] Kim Scott: Yes, yes.

[00:26:56] Adam Richman: You know, because it's like, it doesn't, it, it, it, it doesn't cost anything. And. It, it just, and you know this, there's lots of things about this that I also think intersect with Radical Respect as well.

[00:27:10] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:27:11] Adam Richman: It, it's, in some ways it's so simple. It's such a simple idea.

[00:27:15] Amy Sandler: and it's really interesting when you paint that picture of the director going around and taking the time to say thank you. And I, you know, what's popping up for me, especially for so many of us who work virtually or hybrid or you know, in office, are we taking, you know, just a moment or a minute to look the other person in the eye. You know? And Kim, you've made the point with radical candor. Like these don't need to be 20-hour long feedback sessions, but just being very intentional and showing that appreciation and doing it daily and not just having something on a wall of like, here's what we believe, but like

[00:27:54] Kim Scott: yeah.

[00:27:54] Amy Sandler: That he's actually doing it. So, when we say set the table, like what I hear is actually, it's a very like in person, it doesn't have to be in person, but it's an actual human to human.

[00:28:04] Kim Scott: expressing, yeah, gratitude.

[00:28:05] and appreciation.

[00:28:06] Amy Sandler: How long, I mean there's how many people on the set? How long would it take him at the end of the day to like to look each person?

[00:28:12] Adam Richman: It would take a while. I mean, you know,

[00:28:13] Kim Scott: Like an hour? An hour.

[00:28:15] Adam Richman: Like, I mean 45 minutes. I mean, it's not, you know, it's not a lingering interaction, but you know, maybe,

[00:28:20] Kim Scott: yeah. So, you're not like going into great gory detail, but you know, I love the. Turkey sandwich to the kid or whatever. Yeah. You know?

[00:28:28] Adam Richman: Yeah. Or not even that.

[00:28:29] It's just like, thank you for the great work today. You know? Thank you for being here.

[00:28:32] Amy Sandler: Just being seen. I mean, we all have a need to be seen.

[00:28:35] Adam Richman: Being seen.

[00:28:35] Amy Sandler: Yeah,

[00:28:36] Adam Richman: exactly. You know, and I think something I've learned, a mistake that I made with Grow.

[00:28:41] Amy Sandler: Oh, good. We're very excited to hear about mistakes. Yeah. So here we.

[00:28:44] Adam Richman: So, you know, when you're making a movie specifically, the process is bifurcated. So, you have really, it's bifurcated in a lot of ways. You have the development process, which usually happens in an office, um, and, you know, with,

[00:28:56] Kim Scott: and can you explain what do you mean by development?

[00:28:58] Adam Richman: S Sure. Yeah. So, development is, you know, and Kim, you actually do, because you're doing it when you're locking yourself in your room and you're writing books and you're, you're coming up with ideas.

[00:29:07] So,

[00:29:08] Kim Scott: so that's one person thinking. So, people think,

[00:29:11] Adam Richman: well, one person, but also, you're interacting. Developing your, you know, we work with a writer as executives. We have a back and forth, we have an iterative process with the writers.

[00:29:19] Kim Scott: So, the development process is when you've gotten a script for Grow and you decide you're gonna develop it into, or you've gotten an idea, like who are you developing what with?

[00:29:30] Adam Richman: So, at double nickel we, I mean, you could. The business in general, the sort of creative content business of making movies, making television. You know, you could start further back at a book. You could start with an article. You could start, you're just sitting around and you're like, I have this idea. I have this really interesting idea that would make it really, so it could be an idea.

[00:29:48] Kim Scott: It could be a book. It could be an article.

[00:29:50] Adam Richman: It also could be a script that needs work.

[00:29:53] Kim Scott: Yeah. It could be a script, or it could be a YouTube.

[00:29:54] Adam Richman: and at double nickel

[00:29:55] Kim Scott: YouTube, yeah.

[00:29:56] Adam Richman: Yeah. It could be, right? It could be a YouTube piece. It could be play, it could be anything. Yeah, it could be a poem, you know? It could, it could literally be, it could be, you know, we're having this conversation and we, we finish it and I, I think, Hmm, there's actually a real interesting's,

[00:30:09] Amy Sandler: there's a feature film in here.

[00:30:10] Kim Scott: With a singing Crow in the background. Okay. So, there's, there's an, there's an idea expressed in some way.

[00:30:16] Adam Richman: There's an idea expressed in some way.

[00:30:16] Kim Scott: So, you're developing the idea.

[00:30:18] Adam Richman: The idea. So that's development and then. You have some,

[00:30:20] Kim Scott: and that's a collaborative process. Who's developing it?

[00:30:22] Adam Richman: Very collaborative process. So, you're developing it with writers in some cases? Mm-hmm. Multiple writers, in some cases, one writer. And you're usually developing it with the producer and in some cases you the director as well.

[00:30:33] Kim Scott: And who are you? So, it's,

[00:30:34] Adam Richman: I'm the producer, so it's

[00:30:35] Kim Scott: producer, director, writer, these people in the room.

[00:30:39] Adam Richman: Yes. Sometimes we're in a virtual room, but sometimes the director doesn't come till later, and then you undergo another development process to integrate the director's ideas. So, development is one process.

[00:30:49] Amy Sandler: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:49] Adam Richman: Then you have something called pre-production, which is to keep it focused. I went to Scotland and for two months we were doing pre-production, which basically means you're scouting locations, you are hiring people, you are working on designs, you're, you're doing everything. You're casting, you're doing everything to get to the point where you're building your team, essentially. You're building the sort of foundation of your product. There's a lot of r and d going on at that moment.

[00:31:16] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:16] Amy Sandler: Can I ask, like, just as you're going through that, I'm wondering just to make this, you know, more applicable.

[00:31:21] Adam Richman: Yeah.

[00:31:21] Amy Sandler: Like for you as the producer sitting in the development and then being in pre-production, is there this part of you that's. You're having to straddle both, like the creativity, like, Ooh, this is a great idea, but there's also some part of you like, Ooh, that's gonna cost $2 million. Like, how do you manage? My understanding is that you're having to kind of embody both of those things.

[00:31:40] Adam Richman: without question, every moment of every day, I am embodying both. You know, that, and then that's, that was what was interesting to me about this career path, because you're really, you're 50% one, and 50% the other. A hundred percent the whole, and sometimes you have to go a little bit more one way, a little bit more, the other way. It can be fascinating. It can also be really hard.

[00:32:03] Kim Scott: Yeah. I'm sure.

[00:32:04] Adam Richman: you know, because you want your, you wanna give everything to your talent. You want, you, you want that production designer to have, you know, to have enough money.

[00:32:12] Amy Sandler: Unlimit, unlimited budget.

[00:32:13] Adam Richman: Yeah. You want that, but you also can't do that.

[00:32:15] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:16] Adam Richman: You know, so,

[00:32:17] Kim Scott: so, what's the Radical Candor like in the, let's go back to the development process. Like you say, great idea, but I hate this part of it. Like how, give me an example of some Radical Candor you had to give in that process.

[00:32:31] Adam Richman: Yeah. I mean, so before you get to that part of the process, it's about establishing the relationship with the writer.

[00:32:36] Kim Scott: Okay.

[00:32:36] Adam Richman: Right.

[00:32:36] Kim Scott: That's good. See, I forgot. You're so good, Adam. Yeah.

[00:32:40] Amy Sandler: He's like, Kim. It goes back to the relationship. Come on, Kim.

[00:32:43] Adam Richman: Just to remind you what you wrote,

[00:32:45] Kim Scott: care personally, right? This, this happened to me often when I was writing Radical Candor.

[00:32:50] I would, my editor and I had a good creative process going on. Yeah. And I'd write something.

[00:32:55] Adam Richman: Yeah.

[00:32:56] Kim Scott: And because, because I, my natural instinct is to show I care and I'm having to manage against myself in order, because challenging directly doesn't always feel very care personally. I would sometimes overcompensate and say things that sounded harsh and my, my, my editor would write in the comments, Care Personally much question mark, question mark, question mark.

[00:33:19] I'm like, oh, yeah, gotta go back to that part. By the way, I have some Radical Candor. Somebody has a phone that's buzzing on the table. You need to put it on, uh, airplane.

[00:33:30] Adam Richman: Oh, I think that's me. I'm sorry.

[00:33:31] Kim Scott: Alright, let's go.

[00:33:31] Adam Richman: shutting it down. Yeah.

[00:33:33] Kim Scott: So, what's some Radical Candor in the development process?

[00:33:36] Adam Richman: So, so first you establish the relationship to Care Personally. Okay?

[00:33:40] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:40] Adam Richman: So that establishes trust in the relationship and

[00:33:44] Amy Sandler: mm-hmm.

[00:33:44] Adam Richman: Then, you know, as you're having this iterative back and forth process, you know, it's, it's never, you know, red pen, this is terrible. This is,

[00:33:54] Kim Scott: yeah.

[00:33:54] Adam Richman: It's very much like this is working so well.

[00:33:57] Kim Scott: Yeah,

[00:33:58] Adam Richman: this p this part of it is working so well.

[00:33:59] If it's gen, if there, if there's something that's genuinely working so well,

[00:34:03] Kim Scott: yeah.

[00:34:03] Adam Richman: And this part of it, let's talk about it. You know, and it's,

[00:34:06] Kim Scott: yeah.

[00:34:06] Adam Richman: How do we, and its a, it's a, there's a way to talk to pe. There's a, it's not just talking to creative people. There's a way to talk to people,

[00:34:13] Amy Sandler: human beings.

[00:34:15] Adam Richman: Yeah.

[00:34:15] Amy Sandler: Well, and Adam actually, that with this, 'cause this is really interesting, like your own perspective on what's kind of asynchronous versus real time feedback. So, like if you're in a, and I'm getting into the nitty gritty, but I think you probably have some interesting reflections. Like what would you put in a, in a document or in a script, and then what would warrant like, oh, Kim and I really need to talk real time about that. How do you think about the difference?

[00:34:38] Kim Scott: Yeah, when do you need to just pick up the phone and call?

[00:34:39] Amy Sandler: Yeah.

[00:34:40] Adam Richman: Yeah. So I think before you get back to a writer with comments, we will have a big iterative process ourselves, myself, my amazing business partner, the iconic Jeanette Kahn, to talk about material and talk about, you know, what, what's working, what's not working. So, you have, you kind of have a mind mouth of the direction you want to go in. And then you go to the writer really with,

[00:35:05] Kim Scott: wait, sorry. I'm gonna interrupt and pause. Yeah, because I think that's really important right there. Like, yeah, maybe you're wrong. So now you, you say, I don't think this is working. And then you talk to Jeanette about it and maybe she says you're wrong.

[00:35:18] Like, so now

[00:35:19] Adam Richman: Absolutely.

[00:35:19] Kim Scott: You're going into this humbler, when you. You know, this was working for me. Jeanette loved it. Like ask the writer exactly about why it worked for Jean.

[00:35:28] Adam Richman: It's not black and white. It's not black and white. And I think that's really, but

[00:35:30] Kim Scott: there's no data. Like this is all, there's no data about opinions here.

[00:35:35] Adam Richman: It's a business of opinions. Right. So, it's not, it's not right or wrong, but it's, so we, if we're, we, and we in, in most cases are financing the development of a property.

[00:35:46] Amy Sandler: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:46] Adam Richman: You know, at the end of the day, our opinion will be the final opinion. Because it's until we get to a point where we then sell it to Warner Brothers or Universal, and then they'll come in and say, actually this whole scene that you might have loved that scene, Adam, but it's not working and we're cutting it.

[00:36:03] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:36:03] Adam Richman: You know what I mean? So, it's, it's, it's,

[00:36:05] Kim Scott: and that's probably painful for you.

[00:36:07] Amy Sandler: Yeah. You just spent so much time on that.

[00:36:09] Kim Scott: and the author.

[00:36:10] And

[00:36:10] Adam Richman: you know what? It's not painful, and I'll tell you why it's so painful.

[00:36:13] Kim Scott: Sometimes it feels liberating to get rid of stuff.

[00:36:15] Adam Richman: sometimes because it's, you know, this is about. Again, whether you're making a movie, a television show, whether you're creating a painting, any creative process, any creative business, it's about getting up to bat. So, it's about, you know, you wanna keep things moving, you wanna keep creating, you wanna keep making for all makers.

[00:36:34] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:36:34] Adam Richman: So, part of that is letting things go and you have to be able to let things go, but you also need to know when to fight for things that shouldn't go to the trash. And I'll give a great example.

[00:36:42] There's a really funny scene in our movie were,

[00:36:46] Amy Sandler: mm-hmm.

[00:36:46] Adam Richman: You know, Queen Charlotte and you know, iconic Nick Frost, who's this amazing British actor- comedian, and our star Priya-Rose Brookwell, one of our amazing kids who's in the movie, go to this zoo to basically steal some lion poo.

[00:37:05] Kim Scott: Oh, to help the pumpkin grow.

[00:37:06] Adam Richman: Yeah. Because it's good fertilizer and, you know, and so in an early cut that John delivered to us, we as the, as the producers said, you know, for this cut, we're gonna cut that scene because we feel like it.

[00:37:19] Amy Sandler: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:19] Adam Richman: It, you know, it's not really needed. And you know, it's funny, but you know, let's cut it.

[00:37:23] Kim Scott: Never cut the poop.

[00:37:25] Adam Richman: Never cut the poop. Never cut the poop.

[00:37:27] Amy Sandler: Words of wisdom from Kim Scott on how to make a movie.

[00:37:30] Kim Scott: my creative direction.

[00:37:32] Amy Sandler: Yeah,

[00:37:33] Adam Richman: it's really true. So, we cut it. But John, to his, you know, to his credit, and again, I think any creative who, when they're so passionate about, something, really fought for it and we put it back in and he was a hundred percent right.

[00:37:46] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:37:46] Adam Richman: And there were some things that he, um, some things that he wanted in that didn't get in. Some things that I wanna cut, didn't get cut. But I think one of the beautiful things when you have a, a radically candid relationship where you really care about the person you're collaborating with, is that at the end of the day, you're gonna win some. You're gonna lose some, but it's not really about that.

[00:38:10] Kim Scott: Yeah,

[00:38:10] Adam Richman: it's about the fact that you have this really solid foundation of a relationship and trust there.

[00:38:16] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:38:16] Adam Richman: And that you're, at the end of the day, you're both just want the best product.

[00:38:21] Kim Scott: Yes. You care about each other.

[00:38:21] Adam Richman: and that's not about ego.

[00:38:23] Kim Scott: and you,

[00:38:23] Amy Sandler: Yeah.

[00:38:24] Kim Scott: And you care about the product together.

[00:38:25] Adam Richman: Exactly. About ego.

[00:38:26] Amy Sandler: Yeah. And Adam, what you said about like, we're makers, I love that. Like there was so much about like momentum and I think one of the things in making movies and just the creative act, and I think this applies to anyone, you know, not just in a creative field. But there's, we're going from idea to output. And so, I think what you're talking about is, and this is one of the things, working with Kim and working with Jason of just testing and experimenting and then you have something to actually respond to versus sort of an abstraction.

[00:38:55] And yours is a bit higher stakes, right? Cause you now have a whole bunch of people, and we just spent all this money. And so, you're trying to plan for some of those abstractions. So, I just wanna make sure that we had covered, you had the development process, you had the pre-production process. Were there any other processes that we haven't gotten into where.

[00:39:11] Adam Richman: Yes,

[00:39:11] Amy Sandler: there's another kind of radical journey?

[00:39:13] Adam Richman: Yes. And this is a great this. I'm so glad you brought that up, Amy. So, this goes back to why we started this line of discussion. So, after production, there's post. Post-production, where you edit and you put the sound together, you put the music on, you do the effects you make the movie, the movie, you know, it's, that's where the magic,

[00:39:29] Kim Scott: a lot of the magic happens there.

[00:39:31] Magic. Magic.

[00:39:32] Adam Richman: And what I didn't do at the beginning of the post-process on Grow, and a lot of it had to do with the fact that, my amazing post team are partners at Blazing Griffin in Glasgow. They're just the best, just love, love everyone there. They were in Glasgow. I was back in New York when we were doing post, and we didn't have a table setting session with everyone.

[00:39:54] You know, we didn't have a session where the entire team got on and sort of talked about how we wanted to proceed together, right? And sort of laying out the culture of post. For Grow, you know? And I think not setting, so it took us a little bit longer to get to where we wanted to be. We got there.

[00:40:12] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:40:12] Adam Richman: But like the lesson for that for me was, oh, you know, in what I do, I have to really look at each process and set the table at each part of the process. Because it's not like, because you did it in production, it's gonna automatically carry over to post. It's not,

[00:40:26] Kim Scott: and I think it's so interesting because it feels like especially you were probably.

[00:40:32] Excited to jump into the work. Nobody wanted to spend an extra hour all getting on a zoom together at different time zones to set the table and yet taking the time to set the table. Saves you time in the end. It's why I often say in a staff meeting, you wanna start with a check-in. Even though it can feel frustrating, it feels like, ugh, like I don't have time to socialize with you people, let's just get our work done.

[00:41:01] It is worth taking the time to check in with people and so that you know what's going on in their lives. Setting the table feels slow, but it actually, not only is it a way to show you care personally, but it actually is also a way to improve efficiency.

[00:41:17] Amy Sandler: I agree. I mean so much of it from my perspective is again about clarity. Like we are being clear on how we wanna work together and this is how I'm expecting we're gonna work together. Cause we all go into these meetings, having all these assumptions that are unspoken and then all of a sudden, we're in a very different movie, like literally.

[00:41:35] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:41:36] Amy Sandler: So Adam, I think there's some wisdom there, you know, for folks who are listening who maybe work as an independent contractor or work as a consultant or aren't necessarily in a more formal hierarchy, but you're working with a different post team and the different development team and you're having to sort of go in and out of these different meetings and relationships. Do you have any advice for folks of what you have found works well in sort of a quick table setting or sort of how you like to build rapport, relationship that might be transferable?

[00:42:07] Adam Richman: So, this is such a great discussion. I mean, I think even if it's a quick table setting, it's essential. You know, it's just, it's time that is so, so well spent. And Kim, what you said is right on it. It'll save you time later. You know, it just absolutely will save you time later. And I think, I think that, you know, if you're, if you're Amy, to your point, like if you're an independent contractor and you're someone who's moving from project to project or

[00:42:30] different consultancies at different companies, you still want that, but you, you still absolutely want that. Yeah. Cause for you to be the most effective. Team member at a company or in a project-based work environment, you wanna understand what the culture is, and you hope that the culture is one of collaboration and of kindness and of candor, you know?

[00:42:52] Kim Scott: Yeah,

[00:42:53] Adam Richman: And you need to understand that going in.

[00:42:55] Kim Scott: Yeah. And I think it's so important, especially in a creative process where you're gonna cut things or not cut things. Sometimes what can happen is you think you're on the same page. You, you both have this conversation, and you say, we're gonna do this. And then you look at the work product, and you see something totally different happening, and it's so easy in that moment to get angry that you have to say it again or have another conversation.

[00:43:22] Or you may have this story in your head about, this person is ignoring me, they don't respect me, and like just pick up the phone and call the person. Right? Like, and reminding someone, I was working with someone on something just the other day and I thought we had agreement, and then what I thought we had agreed to wasn't happening.

[00:43:42] And I was like, I started making up the story in my head, like, this person didn't tell me what they, and then I'm like, why don't I just pick up the phone and call ?And we had a quick conversation, they're like, oh, I didn't get it. Here's why I didn't get it. I'm like, oh, now I know what I need to say next time.

[00:43:56] and so I think remembering that Radical Candor is never a one-way street. It's like a lot of little back and forths.

[00:44:05] Amy Sandler: Absolutely.

[00:44:05] Kim Scott: Like setting the table, like we're going to, if we say something and it's not, and and, and what we think is what's gonna happen doesn't happen. Like pick up the phone and call before you get angry, you know?

[00:44:17] Adam Richman: Yeah.

[00:44:18] Kim Scott: Ask why.

[00:44:19] Adam Richman: Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. And I just, it's so interesting and Kim, you and I have talked about this a lot over the years, but I mean, this structure really applies to every part of your life.

[00:44:29] Kim Scott: Yes, your kids, your spouse,

[00:44:31] Adam Richman: it really does. Part of relationships. You know, I've been pushing you for a while to say, when are you doing Radical Candor at home? When is that? When is that book coming out?

[00:44:39] Kim Scott: The House of Radical Candor.

[00:44:40] Adam Richman: The House of Radical Candor. Exactly. Exactly. You know, but it's just, it's, this really is something, you know, that intersects every part of our lives.

[00:44:51] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:44:51] Amy Sandler: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Adam, a couple more questions just as we kind of move towards a close. One of the things that struck me when we were chatting before this conversation was around why you chose to do the film grow.

[00:45:08] Adam Richman: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:08] Amy Sandler: And the word joy was something that you used. And I just would love to hear more about; we need more joy in the world. Tell us. Yeah. Tell us that.

[00:45:17] Adam Richman: Yeah. I mean, I just, look, you both feel this way too. I know you do because we've talked about it together. These are hard days right now. Yes. These are, these are hard and complicated days and what I realized about entertainment now more than ever is that it really needs to entertain. And it needs to uplift, and it needs to give people a, a distraction, it needs to transport them into something that might feel a little bit better. And so

[00:45:46] Kim Scott: I think, I think it's bigger than a distraction. Also, Adam, like the, I think it's positive target identification. Like if you're navigating hard times, you need to have an imagination of what could go well. It's all very clear to us what could go badly.

[00:46:01] Adam Richman: Yeah.

[00:46:01] Kim Scott: And so, I think that the imagination and building a world in which things go well will help us really build a world in which things really go well.

[00:46:12] Like

[00:46:13] Adam Richman: it's true.

[00:46:13] Kim Scott: I think that is, that is the purpose of art at some level.

[00:46:17] Adam Richman: Yeah, I totally agree. And you know, and for us, a purpose has always been to really focus on subjects that are somehow contributing to the cultural conversation.

[00:46:25] Kim Scott: Yeah,

[00:46:25] Adam Richman: so, whether it's issues of race or multiculturalism or social justice, with Grow its issues about the environment and issues about what makes a family. How, how do you define a family? What can different families look like? There always has to be something in there for us that contributes to that conversation. Because making movies is hard. Getting them made is hard, and so, there has to be something that we're really passionate about that speaks to us. And there's so many themes and grow that really, really spoke to us.

[00:46:54] And, you know, and, and Amy back to your point, I mean you know, and just the fact that it, the movie at the end of the day just really gives a tremendous amount of joy. That was a big reason, uh, for us wanting to move forward on it. And the other thing for me, I mean, there's so many reasons. I mean, this project is such a special project to me, you know, of, of, you know, the 18 movies that I've made, um.

[00:47:15] You know, I read this script first many years ago when I was living in California, and it struck a nerve for me immediately because it sorts of nostalgically took me back to my own childhood. And driving to the Berkshires with my mother and my sister and our old blue Chevy van that we would drive to the pumpkin farm and we'd fill that van with pumpkins from floor to ceiling.

[00:47:36] We drive it back to Port Washington on Long Island and New York. Unload those pumpkins in front of the post office and we'd start selling them to the town to raise money for the cultural arts center in the town to bring more arts to Port Washington and to the schools. It was this visceral memory of, and this nostalgia that the movie really captured.

[00:47:56] And I think for all of us as adults, I think every adult who's seen it, it kind of brings that back up. It's a little bit like those early Amblin movies that Steven Spielberg did that kind of captures the innocence of kids in a way that you don't see a lot anymore in film. Yeah, and it's just something that I really loved about it.

[00:48:14] I hope we delivered on. I look forward to talking to you both about it, but I think, you know, for us, our, our trajectory has shifted a little bit in terms of the types of material, like we're looking for stuff that's really uplifting, that's positive, that brings joy. The things you'll be seeing from us going forward, there's a lot of triumphant david and Goliath stories that we're gonna be working on that'll be next after grow. And again, things that

[00:48:37] Kim Scott: go, David, kill Goliath, more.

[00:48:39] Adam Richman: Go, go. You know, and and death we're

[00:48:41] Kim Scott: More violent language.

[00:48:42] Amy Sandler: Yeah.

[00:48:43] Adam Richman: You know,

[00:48:46] Kim Scott: Goliath, maybe that's less violent.

[00:48:48] Amy Sandler: And Adam, as you're sharing that, what's coming up for me is just, we are in this, you know, as human beings and the purpose of art transporting us, imagining something even better, but also, in the experiencing of the film or of the song, or of the piece of art. We have different sensory experiences, and by feeling joy we can then create more joy around us. So giving us the experience of joy is so powerful and I would be remiss if it, I did not talk about this song Grow by KT Tunstall, that as you know, you have put in my head and I can't stop singing poorly all around.

[00:49:23] Adam Richman: It's an earworm.

[00:49:24] Amy Sandler: around, so it is. It's amazing. But like that song, just like I, I'm so excited when I see the film, but it puts me in a different place. I mean, I'm sure everyone listening can think about certain songs that elevate your mood, and I think your purpose with the film is doing that.

[00:49:38] So before we close, tell us about how did you get this song with KT Tunstall to come to life?

[00:49:45] Adam Richman: So, it's, it's a really, it's a, it's a great story. So, our composers, just two guys from Glasgow, incredibly talented, composed the music for John McPhail last film, Anna and the Apocalypse, which is a Christmas, zombie high school musical. Um, and, um, they're just incredibly great guys, incredibly talented guys. They wrote this song, and they first recorded the vocals for it. Do you guys remember that movie? That thing you do.

[00:50:17] Kim Scott: No.

[00:50:18] Amy Sandler: Was it a fifties movie or so?

[00:50:20] Adam Richman: It was, it was a Tom Hanks, it was a Playtone movie and that thing, it just, they, it was like a bop, you know?

[00:50:25] It was, yeah, it was like just this great song that you couldn't get outta your head. Yeah. And so, they sang it. It was just, it was just fantastic. But they have a friendship with KT Tunstall, and they were like, you know, we could really do something with this. Let us see if KT wants to record it. And she did.

[00:50:40] And so our Studio Sky Studios in the UK who. Was our, our anchor in this film. And they, they came in and really were a big reason why this film happened. You know, again, another great partner, just amazing collaborative partners. They have a whole music division Sky. So, the head of the music division, the incredible Sue Hepworth, loves this song as do we all, as does everyone at Sky.

[00:51:05] And they're really gonna make a huge push for this as a big single globally. And, uh., So we're just thrilled about it.

[00:51:11] Amy Sandler: Love it.

[00:51:12] Adam Richman: And so, it happened kind of, you know, it happened because of relationships. Yeah. But it wouldn't have happened if the song wasn't great. And frankly

[00:51:18] Amy Sandler: mm-hmm,

[00:51:19] Adam Richman: if the movie, oops, there goes my, my earpiece.

[00:51:22] If the movie, if the movie wasn't. You know, the, the song was inspired by the movie. Like, I think it was, they really work hand in hand with each other. But, you know, I just wanna go back to one thing really quickly, Amy, that you asked earlier, like, why grow? Why now? You know, the other thing for me, it's really, it's our first family movie at Double Nickel, and I just really wanted to make something that my kids could see with their friends too, right?

[00:51:45] That was really important and that all of our, all, all of the young people in our lives could see. And something that really sort of projected where we want the world to be, you know? And

[00:51:57] Kim Scott: yeah.

[00:51:57] Adam Richman: And, and I think Grow does that.

[00:52:00] Kim Scott: I love that. I can't wait to watch it with my kids 'cause I agree with you. Like one of my goals. To these are dark times and the kids are a little, they're not optimistic about the future. And we wanna give them some optimistic visions of what a future could look like.

[00:52:15] Amy Sandler: Absolutely. Well, Adam, this has been such a fantastic conversation. One thing that I'm struck by for folks, you know, for those of us creative folks in business school. But it is through your business savvy, your strategic skills, your fundraising skills, that you are able to bring this to life. And so that is a unique gift and I wanna acknowledge it. And just that creativity and business can inspire each other and make, you know, sort of one plus one equals three. So, thank you for sharing. Uh, any last words before we close?

[00:52:48] Adam Richman: Just wonderful to spend this time with you both and, uh, just so much fun. Thanks for having me. It was great, great way to spend an hour.

[00:52:56] Kim Scott: Thank you for being here, Adam. And thank you for introducing me to Amy.

[00:53:00] Amy Sandler: Yes. I will forever be grateful for that, Adam. And for those of you listening, please do just like I'm gonna do, get your ticket to see Grow.

[00:53:08] Kim Scott: coming, a world theater near you,

[00:53:10] Amy Sandler: coming to a theater near you. And if you wanna get tickets, please go to Grow, the film. That's G-R-O-W-T-H-E-F-I-L M.com. You can follow on social media @growthefilm.

[00:53:23] For more on this podcast, go to radical candor.com/podcast. You can see the show notes; we'll put a bunch of resources for you. And if you are a visual person, you can now watch our podcast on YouTube and Spotify.

[00:53:36] Thanks for being here.

[00:53:37] Kim Scott: Take care everybody.

[00:53:39] Amy Sandler: The Radical Candor Podcast is based on the book, "Radical Candor: Be a Kickass Boss, without Losing Your Humanity" by Kim Scott. Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal, with script editing by me, Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff, and is hosted by me still, Amy Sandler.

[00:53:59] Nick Carisimi is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor podcasting music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn, Radical Candor the Company, and visit us@radicalcandor.com.

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The Radical Candor Podcast is based on the book Radical Candor: Be A Kickass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity by Kim Scott.

Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer.

The Radical Candor Podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Order his book: The Reason For The Rhymes: Mastering the Seven Essential Skills of Innovation by Learning to Write Songs.

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