31 min read

Kim vs. Kim: Human vs. AI on Workplace Cultural Differences 7 | 28

Brandi Neal Jul 9, 2025 12:00:00 AM

People in the U.S. get fewer days off than folks in Europe, and most of us still feel guilty taking them. Kim and Amy dive headfirst into a viral Reddit post that reads like a love letter to European work-life sanity (and a roast of U.S. grind culture). From vanishing vacations to broken healthcare, Kim reflects on what she’s learned leading teams, taking parental leave, and watching her inbox balloon on every trip. They dig into the messy reality of “unlimited PTO,” why burnout can’t be yoga’d away, and how leaders can build workplaces that actually honor rest.

Listen to the episode:

Episode at a Glance: IRL Kim Vs AI Kim

Kim reacts live to advice on this problem from her own Google Portrait—an AI that Kim helped design with Google to tackle workplace BS when real Kim is off the clock. It’s part cultural reckoning, part vacation manifesto, and 100% Radical Candor.

Radical Candor Podcast Tips

1. Tip number one. Respecting personally. Effective managers understand that supporting wellbeing is not a perk, it's a responsibility. Radical candor encourages leaders to care personally about their team members, which includes respecting boundaries, encouraging time off, but not requiring it or mandating it, how and when it happens, and acknowledging that people have lives outside of work.

2. Tip number two. Work-life integration looks different for everyone. There is no one-size-fits-all all approach to balance. Good leaders have ongoing conversations with their team members about what they each need to do to stay centered, whether that means flexible hours, remote work, or time for family. Does a 7 p.m. yoga class work for you or not? Because real human relationships change as people change.

3. Tip number three. Sustainable success comes from seeing the whole person. High-performing teams aren't built by pushing people past their limits. They're built by recognizing and supporting people as whole human beings. When managers take time to understand each person's motivations, challenges, and life outside work, they create the conditions for long-term success, not just short-term output.

Radical Candor Podcast Resources

The TLDR Radical Candor Podcast Transcript

[00:00:00] Kim Scott: Hello everybody and welcome to the Radical Candor Podcast. I'm Kim Scott.

[00:00:10] Amy Sandler: I'm Amy Sandler. And today we are gonna unpack a viral Reddit thread about the differences between European and us. Work culture. So I'm gonna read an abridge summarized version of what this person wrote, and we're gonna put the link, if you wanna read the whole thing, the whole thread in the show notes, quote, watching US work culture from Europe feels like a never ending episode of Black Mirror, but somehow it's just accepted as normal.

[00:00:38] Kim Scott: Okay, I'm gonna jump, I'm gonna jump here with a confession. I've never watched Black Mirror. So, what, what is it about?

[00:00:46] Amy Sandler: I have watched Black Mirror. I have not watched it in a while, but my understanding, and we can certainly check this out, is that it's basically like a technology dystopian futuristic world. And I only know that because I actually participated in a White Mirror version where it was like trying to use technology for good. So if I am wrong, I'll ask Brandi or Nick to fact check me. But sort of, dystopian, technology, future, are words that come to mind.

[00:01:10] Kim Scott: Awesome. Okay. Well, I'm about to go on vacation.

[00:01:12] Amy Sandler: All right. Well, nice segue there, Kim, because it continues. Americans who are not Kim Scott get zero federally mandated days off.

[00:01:20] Kim Scott: Well, mine are not federally mandated.

[00:01:23] Amy Sandler: Most feel lucky to get ten. In Europe, twenty to twenty-five days are required by law. August off, totally normal. In the US, people feel guilty even taking a week. Healthcare, you lose your job, you lose coverage. I can break a leg, get surgery, and walk out of the hospital. This European person writes, they can break a leg, get surgery, walk out of the hospital without paying a cent. You get a $3,000 bill just for the ambulance ride.

[00:01:53] Kim Scott: I think it's way more like $20,000 for an ambulance.

[00:01:57] Amy Sandler: Yeah, and having just had eye surgery I can relate to, even with great coverage, you still get a really big bill. Going on, parental leave, in the US new moms are back at work in weeks, here, parents get months, sometimes a year with pay, and it's not controversial. It's just basic human decency. Then there's the grind culture. If your boss texts you after hours here, that's harassment. In France, it's literally illegal to expect people to check email after work. Americans brag about working weekends. We riot. Don't even get me started on at will employment. Fired for any reason or no reason, that's not freedom, that's fear. Meanwhile, billionaires build bunkers while nurses live in cars. You've been convinced that asking for dignity at work makes you lazy, but over here, even conservatives support healthcare and unions. Europe's not perfect, but from here, the US looks like corporate feudalism wrapped in a flag.

[00:03:01] Kim Scott: Well, it's hard, I agree with everything that's being said. I think that we don't get nearly enough vacation for sure. I think one of the things, Amy, that we have talked about at Radical Candor, is the importance of being able to have enough vacation that at some point in the year you can take two consecutive weeks off. Because it's my experience that if you take one week of vacation, by the time you're on about day six, that's when you finally shifted in vacation mode and then it's over. In order to reap the benefit of a week of vacation, you have to take a week off before the real vacation really starts. It's like really hard to, at least for me, to disconnect. I know that different people are different, and we've talked a lot about how some people just need three days every so often, and one person I worked with had to take two months a year and go on a bender taking beautiful photographs. And it,

[00:04:02] Amy Sandler: I love that definition of a bender.

[00:04:04] Kim Scott: Well, no, he, there was also some booze involved. There was, there was not purely booze, there was also art. There was a lot of alcohol and art, but that was what he needed to do. I mean, most of us don't need to do that, but that was what he needed. Like, so everybody needs something different. So I'm with you. I think that not only do we need to be able to take more vacation. We need to be able as leaders to flex to what individuals need. 'Cause not everybody needs the same thing. What do you think, Amy, about vacation?

[00:04:39] Amy Sandler: Well, I love vacation, but I will just, I'll say I, I am also someone who I, I love to work and so even for me having conversations related to the kind of stuff we do at Radical Candor even happens on, on vacation. I just took some time off. I was with family and friends. I just went to a college reunion and so it was, you know, time off. And I'm still talking about ideas that I'm passionate about. I'm still engaged. I'm, as you know about me, like I love a workshop, so I'm like going to a work, like that, to me is, is vacation, is going to a workshop, so I might not be the norm either.

[00:05:15] I think one of the things that leapt out at me, I spent my junior year in London, in the UK I, when I went to film school, I studied for six months in France, and so having lived there and studied there, I, like the writer, was struck by how there were just certain norms in the culture of like, we all have a right to healthcare and to education and that these were things that, that were federally supported. And that, like I went to this great doctor in Paris, I literally did not pay a dollar. I think some of it is almost just, what do we believe is our rights as humans and what is done in the workplace and what is done by the government? So that's just another part in this conversation is what's our kind of social contract.

[00:05:57] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, I totally agree. So we need more vacation. And, and the thing about having it be mandated that employers have to give it, that's different from saying employees have to take it, you know? But you have to be able to take, and the reason why that is important, the reason why that kind of law I think is important, is that otherwise you get the employers who do offer a month off a year, or twenty to twenty-five days a year, they're at a disadvantage over those who don't, in terms of profitability, potentially. And so it's really important, I think, to have a legal mandate that you have to offer the time off.

[00:06:43] Amy Sandler: One of the things, I was just gonna jump in, if that's okay. Like, and I don't wanna put Brandi on the spot, but you know, one of the things, you know, Radical Candor has unlimited time off, if I'm not mistaken. I mean, I certainly have been, like we don't always take it, but there's, in terms of the policy, the idea is that people can take it. But sometimes you might not feel that you can take it because you're gonna be, you know, that your role just doesn't allow for things that are just constantly gonna pop up, or you don't feel like you could take two weeks off apart from maybe the holidays. So I'm just curious, Kim, what's your take on, we might have these policies, but what in the actual practical part of somebody's job and just how things move so fast, how can leaders think about that?

[00:07:24] Kim Scott: Yeah, I mean, so there's a lot of criticism of the policy that we have. The policy is there's not a policy, you know, we're a small company and everybody should take the time that they need. And a lot of companies have that policy in the US, and it turns out that when you have that policy, research shows that people actually take less time rather than more time. And so the criticism of such a policy is that it actually discourages people from taking vacation. Whereas if you say to someone you have twenty to twenty-five days per year off, and that doesn't mean you have to take it off, but that's, you know, you accrue vacation. So I don't know, maybe we should change our policy. What do you think?

[00:08:09] Amy Sandler: Well, I will say for the kind of role that I have, which is based on workshops and keynotes and the podcast, I can look at my schedule and know when I can actually plan around it. For example, I knew when my surgery was going to be, I was able to kind of front load a lot of workshops and events beforehand, and then a month or so later, and then I've had to adjust things accordingly. I don't have the kind of role currently where I have, you know, ten things that must happen, like if you're in social media or marketing or client services where you're the one sort of always answering the phone, where like, if I'm not there and there's not someone to pick that up. So I'm maybe not the best example. For someone like me, that's been working well.

[00:08:49] Kim Scott: Yeah, I think with the problem that you are mentioning and Brandi, you can come off microphone or not, as you wish, but the, I think that Brandi has a role that is very high, tons of email, for example. And this is a problem that I have. If I go on vacation, I come back and I've got thirty thousand unread emails or something. And there's part of me that feels like, oh my gosh, it wasn't even worth it to go on vacation, 'cause I have so much, you know, I have to make up all. So I've had throughout my life to figure out how to make sure that when I take a vacation, work doesn't pile up, so that when I get back, I still have that week's, I just have to do two weeks worth of work in one week when I get back from a, or, you know, four weeks worth of work, if I take a longer vacation. I don't know what the answer is, the capital A answer.

[00:09:39] I can tell you what has worked for me. One thing is sometimes when I go on vacation, I'll leave a vacation response saying I'm on vacation. I will never read this email. You know if, and I'm, Brandi, a thousand percent fine if you wanna do that. If the matter is urgent, talk to so and so, or so and so, or so and so. So I think the thing that leaders should always do for employees is to make sure that when they go on vacation there is a plan for coverage so that they don't come back buried with work. I assume that Jason and Brandi are working on that kind of plan. I'd be shocked if Jason's not doing that for Brandi, but Brandi, speak up if he is not. We'll have a conversation. So that's vacation, Amy, does that sort of satisfy your question?

[00:10:29] Amy Sandler: Yeah, no, I think it does. I think it's, you know, there were other pieces that were mentioned in the Reddit thread around, you know, healthcare and parental leave.

[00:10:36] Kim Scott: Yeah. I was gonna move on to healthcare next.

[00:10:37] Amy Sandler: Oh yeah, sure, a hundred percent on vacation.

[00:10:39] Kim Scott: Um, healthcare. I totally, you know, it's funny, I sort of feel like the reason why we have, and I could be wrong about this, but I went down kind of like a FDR New Deal rabbit hole recently. And I feel like in one of the mini books I read, I read this.

[00:10:56] Amy Sandler: As one does.

[00:10:56] Kim Scott: As one does. So we should facts check this. I'm not sure I'm right about this. But I feel like what happened was that, that, um, as a result of the Great Depression, you know, there were a lot of programs being considered, and I think one of the things that was being considered was universal healthcare. And I feel like it was decided that it would be better to have employers offer healthcare. And I feel like maybe the unions even wanted that for some reason, because then it gave them more control over what kind of healthcare. But I could be wrong, um, about that history. But I think that for whatever reason, for whatever historical, quirky reason, we tied health insurance to employment. And I think that was a big problem. It was a big problem for a bunch of reasons.

[00:11:53] The one that the person wrote about, you lose your job, you lose coverage. That's probably the biggest and most obvious problem. But I think it's also been a problem for American industry because by having employers cover the cost as opposed to having this be sort of universally covered and we pay, maybe we all pay a little more taxes, especially the wealthy pay a lot more taxes maybe, to make sure that this kind of system is possible, then American industry wouldn't be burdened with this cost. And I think part of what happened was outsourcing happened, not only as a result of healthcare costs, but also as a result of pension costs.

[00:12:35] And if those were covered, again, kind of for the same reason you want a government to mandate a minimum number of days off, because then even companies that want to do it can't afford to do it if their competitors are not doing it. Now, you, you want, you want healthcare covered by, you know, by, by the government, not by employers. Because we're in a global economy, at least kind of, and we can't afford to make our companies pay for healthcare if our global competitors have the government. So we, we made ourselves uncompetitive in addition to hurting people who are unemployed. What should we do? What's your, you now are, you're in control of everything. Fix it all for us, Amy.

[00:13:28] Amy Sandler: Well, oh, I didn't know that's where this was going, but I will say I actually got great care, just went back when I was in Massachusetts, so shout out to, and this was at Mass General Brigham, which also has Harvard research as well, so just the link there. But as you were talking and sort of the fact checking with FDR, which we can, I can mention, Brandi pulled up that FDR initially envisioned, including universal health coverage within the Social Security Act of 1935, but ultimately drop the idea due to strong opposition from the medical and insurance industries and concerns about passing the legislation. So that was just when you were mentioning the rabbit hole.

[00:14:06] Kim Scott: Okay. So I was blame the unions and it was the insurance industry.

[00:14:08] Amy Sandler: But I think there's like something broader which just this idea of like that, and I'll quote, Europe tends to see healthcare, education, and rest as public goods, things everyone should have access to regardless of income, that there's more of a social democratic ethos in many European countries. Whereas the US is more influenced by individualism, self-reliance, and market driven solutions, and sort of this belief that success is tied to hard work. And so therefore healthcare is like a privilege earned through employment. And I mentioned that because just from my personal experience, like I remember when I was studying in Paris and there was sort of this joke that like they had this amazing ice cream stores called Berthillon, I don't know if it's still around, but it was not open in July because nobody in Paris was working in July.

[00:14:52] Kim Scott: Is it August?

[00:14:53] Amy Sandler: Or maybe it was August. Anyhow, it was like, whenever is the best month for ice cream, we are not working because we, we believe in something even more important than ice cream, which is this idea of sort of wellbeing and rest, et cetera. And so I do think that is, that is a difference. I'm just curious, Kim, like, as we reflect not only on these, maybe more structural or, or cultural mindsets, but given also that, you know, the, the launch of Google Portrait, which we'll get into a moment, but how do you see AI as potentially almost intensifying this distinction, distinction of like hustle, culture grind? Like what do we really value individual versus collective responsibility?

[00:15:37] Kim Scott: I think that I'm, it's such a broad way to frame the issue. I, I think that Americans certainly, there's like this rugged individualism. But I think that for a long time from the end of World War II until 1970, we did a much better job making sure that we were, it was not perfect, but I feel like around 1970 things started getting much more neoliberal in this country, and frankly, globally, not only here. And I think that has really hurt our ability actually, not only to take care of each other, but also to compete. I don't think about it really in terms of individualism versus more concern for community, but I think about it in terms almost of externalities. Like part of the reason to have a good government is that there are positive and negative externalities that the market cannot take into account.

[00:16:44] And the benefit of being well rested, of being healthy, uh, there are positive externalities to that. And if the government doesn't step in and take care of those externalities, no individual company can possibly do it. And so that is really the kind of practical reason why I think we need to change our policies and make them more like Europe. So I certainly agree. And it's not only vacation and healthcare, it's also parental leave. I got five months of parental leave and also had two months of bedrest, and that was all covered by short-term disability. I do not consider having a child, a disability. I mean, it's a super ability, frankly. That was covered by short-term disability, which is a government program.

[00:17:38] I was ready to go back to work at five months, but even if the law were a year, I probably would've gone back after five months. I also think it's really important, and I think that Europe was ahead of the game in particular, I forgot, maybe it was Sweden, I can't remember which country, but they broke, I'm pretty sure it was Sweden mandated that fathers take, that there's a year off and fathers half take six months of it, or something like that. But I think that's really important. When our kids were born sixteen plus years ago, I got five months and I think Andy, my husband, got five weeks. We were both working at Google at the time. And since then Google has fixed that and fathers get as much time as mothers, which just seems really important and fair.

[00:18:30] Amy Sandler: Yeah. You know, I appreciate you bringing that piece up, as well as the, the time in which that happened and the changes. 'Cause what was going through my mind, Kim, as you were talking was, what was it like for you, if we're worried to even take a week of vacation off because of the emails that have piled up, what was it like to come back after five months? And this maybe is a question that's hard to answer, but like how out of the loop did you feel?

[00:18:55] Kim Scott: That was really, I think I would talk to someone once every two weeks for a brief amount of time. So I was really out of the loop. And I feel like it was the best thing, actually, that I could have done for my team at that time, because they all got additional responsibilities. They, they had to work more closely together, so they really had to step up as individuals and come together as a team, and they totally rose to the challenge. I mean, it really didn't matter a lick that I was out, which was a good feeling. For me, that meant success. That was the definition of success. So I was really pleased with how things went in my absence. I mean, we spent a lot of time talking about it, we had nine months to prepare. It was good. Like it really, it, it worked well. I think Andy would, Andy felt a little cheated. Andy would've liked a little more time.

[00:19:52] Amy Sandler: And so thank you, Brandi. It was Iceland. There was 2021 new legislation in Iceland that extended the duration of combined maternity and paternity leave to a total of twelve months, which was split equally between the mother and the father. So six months each. So yes, Andy definitely got the, the short stick on that.

[00:20:09] Kim Scott: He did get five weeks, which, which is more than he would've gotten ten years, I think my father got zero paternal, like the idea of paternity leave was an anathema.

[00:20:28] Amy Sandler: Before we get into how your Portrait would answer this reflection from our Reddit thread user, do you have, uh, reflections from any of these topics, whether it's vacation, parental leave, healthcare, et cetera, from, from CEOs or organizations that you've worked with recently who you feel like, gosh, they are really thinking about this in an innovative way, or they're really doing this well, is there anyone that you wanna highlight or any tips for listeners?

[00:20:55] Kim Scott: Yeah, I think that it is the role, there is a definite role for government to play in here to level the playing field, kind of saying all companies have to do at least this much, so that those who don't do this much don't have an unfair advantage over those who do. And employees and their managers need to get on the same side of the table and realize they're working towards the same end. This is not a zero sum game. This is something that we wanna do for each other because we want to, as a CEO, you want everybody at your company doing the best work of their lives, and as an employee at that company, you wanna do the best work of your life. An important thing is developing a culture where people are committed to talking to each other about how to move forward together on all of these policies. Like it's not, I, I think that having some government mandates is a necessary but not sufficient condition. I, I felt like, I mean, I've said this many times before, I felt like I had struggled with these things enormously throughout my career.

[00:22:14] And the, the, when I, when I got to to Google, I felt like it was doing better on all these fronts, even than I had done in my own company that I had started and I had really good intentions. So I think that's, and again, this was Google 2004, which is different from Google today, and, and Google even then wasn't perfect. So no, no company is getting this exactly right. I did a really fun workshop with Sony where the leader of a, of a big team at Sony wanted to sit down and get everyone on their team to, to write down the, their sort of happiness recipe, their centeredness recipe. What were the things that each person needed to do every single day and every single week in order to stay centered? And then they were gonna hold each other accountable, help each other actually do these things. And they were that, you know, that they wanted to make sure people weren't burning out.

[00:23:17] And I think they, I think that, I'm, I'm not saying that that exercise solved all the problem, but I think it was a good example of a leader who heard their team, sat down and, and, and tried to solve this problem together with them. Um, I think the other thing to remember is that different things cause burnout for different people and different working hours cause burnout for different people. And different, different vacation patterns feel different for different people, so I would never, even though, you know, I said to our team, it's really important for me to take two full weeks off at a time, and my aspiration is to take a month off to be like the Europeans, at some point. I haven't quite figured that out, although I'm inching closer to it this year. But, but I'm not gonna say everybody has to approach vacation the way that I approach, I'm just sharing with people what I need. I don't know. What do you think Amy?

[00:24:25] Amy Sandler: I mean, I think just like Radical Candor is measured, not at my mouth, but at the, at the listener's ear, I mean, I think wellbeing, uh, is, is similar. What's gonna fill our cups up? You know, you and I have talked about how we have different ways of, of restoring ourselves. When you were talking about the Sony, the self-reflection exercise, it also made me think about, just as someone who's been teaching mindfulness, compassion, emotional intelligence for, at this point now, like ten years in the workplace, one company's, not specifically this exercise that you ran, but just that they're, I am aware that some companies may add, you know, here's the yoga class or here's the meditation class, but they're doing it as sort of a bandaid to kind of a root issue of just doing more with doing less. And so in some,

[00:25:09] Kim Scott: Or they were imposing that. When I was, when interviewing, I was looking to leave Google and I was interviewing at a bunch of different companies, and I interviewed at a startup in San Francisco. So I drove up there and I don't know why I was interviewing at this particular moment in my life. I had six month old twins. But anyway, somehow that didn't occur to me that maybe this wasn't the ideal moment to start. So I drove up to San Francisco for this interview and they were bragging about their culture and how great their culture was. And then they said, one of the things we do that we're really passionate about is we all do yoga every day together at 7:00 PM And I'm like, oh my God. I ran.

[00:25:53] Amy Sandler: That's your biggest nightmare.

[00:25:55] Kim Scott: Well, it's, it's not my biggest nightmare. I would have loved at one point in my career to do yoga at 7:00 PM with a team. I'm not anti yoga.

[00:26:03] Amy Sandler: No, but the forced nature, right.

[00:26:05] Kim Scott: Well, I'm anti the forced and I had six month old twins. Like, that meant I wouldn't get on the road to get, I wasn't gonna get home till 9:30 every night. I was out the door before I even, I mean, I think the interview wasn't even over. I was like, see ya, sayonara. And that's an example of what I mean. Like you, you need to understand, if you're trying to help people stay centered, you need to understand what they need to stay centered. You don't want to impose what you need on others.

[00:26:36] Amy Sandler: Absolutely. And actually I think that really aligns with your whole kind of rockstar mode versus superstar mode. Like also just where are you in your life? Like you said, there might have been a time when doing yoga with your colleagues at 7:00 was, was just the right thing, and, and this was not, this was not that time. Google Labs and Radical Candor just launched Kim's, it's called Google Portrait. It is a new experiment that lets you interact conversationally with AI representations of trusted experts, and it was built in partnerships with the experts themselves. If you want to learn more about Portraits, we have an episode with Kim and Ryan Germick, and we're gonna put that link in the show notes. Before I get into reading what the Portrait said, Kim, do you wanna just share for folks just your reflection on why you wanted to do Portraits and what it's like to be the first one?

[00:27:28] Kim Scott: Yes, sure. So, as I think folks know, we have also built a Radical Candor AI ourselves at Radical Candor. And the reason why Jason and I, and the whole team, were excited about the Radical Candor AI is that there are so many times when people want an answer to their question right away, they wanna talk to someone right away. And, and we can't always be man, manning the phone or personing the phone twenty four seven, nor would it be ideal. I think that when I started the company Candor Inc. before Radical Candor, uh, the reason why I did that is I wanted, uh, when I wrote the book, Radical Candor, I, I was hoping people would read the book and then they'd be in the situation and then they turn to the right page. But of course, who can remember where the right page is? Even if you bought the search,

[00:28:27] Amy Sandler: Even if you wrote the book.

[00:28:29] Kim Scott: Yeah, it takes time and it's kind of a pain in the neck. You wanna just ask somebody a question. And, and so we were, but AI didn't exist then. And when Jason and I started the current version of Radical Candor, we said, let's do the stuff that doesn't scale. Like let's teach people actual, let's you know, you and I, and then Amy, and then a bunch of people, let's teach people about Radical Candor, learn about the kinds of questions that people have, and then we'll figure out how to automate the answers to those questions. 'Cause I've always felt like around the ideas of Radical Candor, ninety percent of the questions are the same eighty questions over and over again, and that can get automated, in theory, pretty simply.

[00:29:11] After ChatGPT launched, Jason and I started talking about, oh, maybe we can use this AI, you know, maybe AI is ready for our idea. So our idea is, has this new capacity. So we started experimenting with it. And then we learned about Google Portraits, which is similar, but not exactly the same kind of thing. I think that the reason why we were really excited to work with Google on Google Portraits is that Google is allowing experts to tap into all of their technology, but they're not trying to take the, the users away from the expert. They're not trying to disintermediate the users and the expert.

[00:29:55] So they're, they're helping people build something, uh, on top of their large language model and then put it on their own websites. The thing that the Google Portrait could do is ask sort of quick questions. It's more conversational. It's not like a long form answer, but way more conversational. So it was really fun to work with them. We learned a ton. The other reason why I'm excited about this is that I, as a human being, I don't scale. Meaning I can only be in one place at a time and I need to sleep a lot and hang out.

[00:30:33] Amy Sandler: On vacation.

[00:30:34] Kim Scott: On vacation and, and hang out with my family and do some weeding and my garden. I need to do all these things. People send me questions all the time, in LinkedIn or I get an email and I miss a lot of those emails. That's how I deal with email. And I am, I don't read a lot of the LinkedIn questions and I'm sort of always racked with guilt about that. I also feel like I should go into Reddit and I should have found this question myself and answered on Reddit, but I just don't have time to do all that. I can't, I can't do it. And in part because in addition to resting, like I wanna write a new book, I don't wanna keep asking, answering questions about the old book.

[00:31:15] And so I think the Google Portrait some, somewhere between the Google Portrait and the Radical Candor AI, we will, we're gonna help solve that, help people figure out how to have these chats, help answer all those questions in a way that is, it's obviously not me, but it's, it's like enough me. And so one of the things I keep wanting to do on this podcast is do a human versus machine test. And now we're gonna do it. So talk about this test we're about to do.

[00:31:47] Amy Sandler: Yeah, so Brandi, our producer, read the post, the post that I started with, actually the Reddit post, yep. And we just gave you a truncated version. Read the Reddit post to Kim's Google Portrait, which if you wanna check that out, that's at labs.google/Portraits. It's also on the Radical Candor homepage. And we'll put various links in the show notes as well. So, Brandi read the post to Kim's Google Portrait. And Kim, you have not looked at this, is that correct?

[00:32:13] Kim Scott: I have not read the port, you will see my,

[00:32:17] Amy Sandler: If you're watching the video, you'll see a live,

[00:32:19] Kim Scott: You'll see surprise and delight or shock and horror.

[00:32:22] Amy Sandler: Okay, so I'm gonna tell Kim what, you know, what Kim said. See if human Kim agrees with AI Kim's answers. And so again, just to go back, this was the, the thread of thread about, you know, the, the Black Mirror and the vacation and the healthcare and the parental leave. You know, you deserve better.

[00:32:40] Kim Scott: Yeah. In terms of work practices.

[00:32:44] Amy Sandler: I checked with Brandi. Brandi did not ask a question. She literally just plopped the whole thread into, the whole post. Okay, so here we go. This is Kim's Portrait response. That's a powerful way to put it. From my perspective, a huge difference lies in the explicit versus implicit ways people relate and give guidance. My sense is that many of the issues you're highlighting, like expectations around working hours or taking time off often stem from implicit norms in US culture rather than explicit communication. Does that make sense?

[00:33:22] Kim Scott: Not I disagree with, I disagree a little bit with what the Portrait is saying, but that's okay.

[00:33:28] Amy Sandler: Implicit norms are the unwritten rules, the unspoken expectations we pick up through observation, not through direct instruction. They often dictate things like how much vacation is too much or how quickly you should respond to emails, even if no one ever explicitly says it. How do you see that playing out?

[00:33:47] Kim Scott: But can I play the role of the Reddit poster. What I would say is, actually the problem is there are no explicit rules in the US about vacation time. If there were, your implicit bullshit, wouldn't matter. That's All right.

[00:34:03] Amy Sandler: Well, I would like to see how Kim responds to that response. Brandi, I dunno if you can throw that in while we're talking. So then the question was, how do you change implicit norms? And then here's what Portrait Kim said. That's a great question, and it's where explicit communication comes in. You have to start by making those implicit norms explicit, bringing them out into the open for discussion. Then you can actually challenge them. Let's say there's an implicit norm that people work late. You can make it explicit by asking your boss or team, what are our expectations around working hours? Is it expected we'll be online after 5:00 PM. It opens the door to a real conversation.

[00:34:44] Kim Scott: Yes. So that's good. I mean, I think like in terms, uh, to the extent that the Reddit poster was asking about implicit expectations in the US and how to deal with them. I mean, one example is what, one solution I guess is, is legislation. Another is, being explicit about perceived implicit norms.

[00:35:04] Amy Sandler: So then the question was, how does this relate to Radical Candor?

[00:35:07] Kim Scott: So the question, this is a question that Brandi,

[00:35:11] Amy Sandler: This is a question. That's right. So what happens in the, in the Portrait for folks who haven't tried it out yet, and go ahead, check it out. But it will give you a few different examples of actually follow up questions or comments that you can just click on. You can certainly respond yourself. You can speak to it, you can type it in, but it will also just give you some, some options. And this was an option that Brandi selected, which was, how does this relate to Radical Candor? All right. Portrait Kim said, well, Radical Candor is all about caring personally and challenging directly. When norms are implicit, it's hard to challenge them.

[00:35:44] Kim Scott: That, Amen. Hallelujah. That was good. I like what it said there.

[00:35:52] Amy Sandler: Good job. You need to explicitly state what you observe, then explain why it's problematic, and explore solutions. That's the challenge directly part. By the way, it looks like there was a hyphen in challenge directly part, which I've never seen in Portrait. When you challenge unspoken rules, you're embracing the challenge directly part of Radical Candor. It means pointing out what you see happening, even if it's uncomfortable, and asking if it's truly serving the team or the company. You have to care personally about the impact these norms are having, and then, okay, three tips for challenging unspoken rules. First, observe the behavior. And articulate it clearly. Explain the impact of that behavior, not just to you, but to the team or goals. Third, propose a different way forward. A concrete alternative.

[00:36:40] Kim Scott: I'm gonna reverse my initial instinct about what the Portrait said because the, I'm gonna criticize what real Kim Scott said. Yes, you're right. We should have this legislation. But then what is anybody gonna do? We're going in the wrong direction right now in this country in terms of this kind of legislation. And so I think that in some senses, the Portrait by talking about implicit versus explicit, anchored on what someone who is actually working in the US can actually do about, uh, so maybe Portrait Kim gave a better, but maybe I like took the bait, the Reddit bait. Real Kim Scott took the Reddit bait and Portrait Kim Scott talked about something that actually might be more useful in the real world. So that's my assessment.

[00:37:30] Amy Sandler: I, I love that real Kim. And I will just say, I, I actually got a different response than what Brandi got, and I asked a question and I wanna share what I got.

[00:37:39] Kim Scott: Sure.

[00:37:39] Amy Sandler: Which was, they said, wow. When I put in the whole Reddit thread and I said, you know what, I asked Portrait, what do you have to say about this? And then I put in the whole thread and it said, wow, that's a really powerful and heartfelt perspective. It sounds like you're seeing a lot of systemic issues that cause deep frustration and even anger, particularly around how work impacts wellbeing and basic rights. You're touching on some huge challenges in workplace culture. What specific aspect of these observations feels most urgent for you to address perhaps in a conversation or within a relationship you're trying to navigate?

[00:38:18] Kim Scott: Even better.

[00:38:19] Amy Sandler: I know.

[00:38:19] Kim Scott: Even better.

[00:38:20] Amy Sandler: I know. It was so good. It kept bring, 'cause I think I had initially said like, oh, I don't want abstract. I want very practical. I'd had that in a previous conversation. So every time I kept trying to like extrapolate into these broader systemic things, it kept bringing me back into,

[00:38:34] Kim Scott: What are you gonna do?

[00:38:35] Amy Sandler: Like let's role play. What's the issue you're trying to deal with?

[00:38:38] Kim Scott: No, I do like that because I don't know how to make legislative changes right now in the US and thank goodness there are people who are focused on that, 'cause they're doing important work. So I, I love it. And for folks who haven't played with the Portrait yet, you can ask it a question and then it'll give you an answer and it'll give you three follow up prompts. Or you can ignore those follow up prompts that it suggests and ask your own question. So that's part of the reason why you'll get different answers is 'cause you ask, if you ask a question differently.

[00:39:12] Amy Sandler: Yeah. It's like choose your own adventure.

[00:39:13] Kim Scott: Okay, well I can just go write the, my utopian novel because Portrait is on it.

[00:39:20] Amy Sandler: I don't know if this is the best way to close out this episode, but I feel like the best way we can all go on vacation is just to create Portraits of ourselves.

[00:39:27] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah. Actually, maybe, maybe that, I cannot answer your question. Try my Portrait. All right.

[00:39:35] Amy Sandler: Well, I so enjoyed this, Kim. Any final reflections?

[00:39:38] Kim Scott: No. Let's do the checklist.

[00:39:40] Amy Sandler: Do we have a checklist or can we ask,

[00:39:41] Kim Scott: Tips you use to put Radical Candor into practice right away. Tip number one. Respecting personally. Effective managers understand that supporting wellbeing is not a perk, it's a responsibility. Radical candor encourages leaders to care personally about their team members, which includes respecting boundaries, encouraging time off, but not requiring it or mandating it, how and when it happens, and acknowledging that people have lives outside of work.

[00:40:11] Amy Sandler: Building on what Kim said, work life integration looks different for everyone. There is no one size fits all approach to balance. And good leaders have ongoing conversations with their team members about what they each need to do to stay centered. Whether that means flexible hours, remote work, time for family. Does a 7:00 PM yoga class work for you or not? Because real human relationships change as people change.

[00:40:39] Kim Scott: Before we move on to tip number three, I wanna acknowledge, as I was reading mine and as you were reading yours, Amy, a work life balance bias popped into my mind. I think very often when we talk about work or work life integration bias, I think there's this assumption that that always means working less, but there are some people who really want to work more. They want to work all the time. I think it's important to respect that and not say, as long as they're not demanding that everybody else work the same hours that, that they do. I think that that is, that's awesome. That's fine. All right. Tip number three. Sustainable success comes from seeing the whole person. High performing teams aren't built by pushing people past their limits. They're built by recognizing and supporting people as whole human beings. When managers take time to understand each person's motivations, challenges, and life outside work, they create the conditions for long term success, not just short term output.

[00:41:43] Amy Sandler: All right, and before we close Kim, I just wanna, uh, amplify what you just said about how some people really do like to work and to not be penalized for that, and also just know how that might land for other people. Years ago, I was leading a, a mindful listening exercise, and I was in a group where the CEO in the room said, you know, I realize that I'm sending these emails to people on Sunday, and even though I'm saying you don't have to respond in the email, it still wasn't landing that way for people because this was the CEO. So again, just bringing in that idea of sort of power and how things land for people. And so honoring that people are gonna have different work styles, but knowing how power comes into the mix based on who's modeling that.

[00:42:27] Kim Scott: Yeah, I mean I have, so there have been times when people have said if I send them an email, they don't believe me that, and so what I'll do in that case is I'll, for a period of time, I'll schedule send. But that means that because they don't believe me, I'm having to do extra work. And I'll do that for a little while, but at a certain point, the person either has to believe me and realize that I really have never yelled at them for not replying right away. It's important, like I work kind of weird hours sometimes, and there are periods of my life when I really do work all the time. I really don't expect others to work all the time. But I don't think it's fair for people to judge me or tell me I can't send emails on Sunday. If I'm not insisting that they answer them Sunday at two in the morning, then don't tell me when I can or cannot send emails either.

[00:43:27] Amy Sandler: All right, well, on that note, and another reason why you can send all the emails you ever want in the world to Kim's Portrait, it has infinite patience.

[00:43:35] Kim Scott: Yes. It, it, unlike me, it has infinite patience.

[00:43:39] Amy Sandler: All right, well, a couple URLs for you. We've got, again, labs.google/Portraits. This is our Radical Candor community. This is where you can work with our, our Radical Candor AI, as well as connect with like-minded folks who are really passionate about putting into practice the art and science of Radical Candor. And if you wanna see the show notes for this episode, that's RadicalCandor.com/podcast. We like to say praise in public, criticize in private. So if you like what you hear, do rate and review us wherever you're listening. And if you've got feedback for us or a question for a future episode, especially criticism, we welcome it. Email us podcast@RadicalCandor.com. Bye for now.

[00:44:20] Kim Scott: Take care. Great conversation as always, Amy.

[00:44:23] Amy Sandler: The Radical Candor Podcast is based on the book, Radical Candor Be a Kick Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity, by Kim Scott. Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal, with script editing by me, Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff, and is hosted by me still, Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor, podcasting music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn, Radical Candor the company, and visit us RadicalCandor.com.

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The Radical Candor Podcast is based on the book Radical Candor: Be A Kickass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity by Kim Scott.

Radical Candor podcast

Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer.

The Radical Candor Podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Order his book: The Reason For The Rhymes: Mastering the Seven Essential Skills of Innovation by Learning to Write Songs.

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