How Microaggressions Can Have Significant Negative Impacts (with Dr. Kecia Thomas) 8 | 27

[00:00] Kecia M Thomas: So there I think there is this invisible culture that as faculty we are navigating. And I have certainly been in the seminar room where s you know, the majority of people around the table talked about how their dads and it's almost always their dads were faculty.

[00:15] Kim Scott: Right. Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Radical Sabbatical. I'm Kim Scott, and while the rest of the Radical Candor team is off, I am talking to the authors of books that I admire. And I'm thrilled to have with me today Dr. Keisha Thomas, an organizational psychologist who has spent the last 30 years researching how to make organizations. Get the best out of all their employees and to make sure that they're fair in the way they hire and promote people. Keisha, welcome.

[00:55] Kecia M Thomas: Thank you so much, Kim. I appreciate that.

[00:58] Kim Scott: I am thrilled to be speaking with you. You had done so much great research, and sort of like me with radical candor, that's all people want to hear about from me. A lot of people really love your pet to threat research. can you explain this theory and why it has stood this test of time, why it has resonated with so many different people?

[01:23] Kecia M Thomas: Sure, I'm happy to, Kim. So I would say Pet to Threat is a framework.

[01:31] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[01:34] Kecia M Thomas: The title came about through just an informal conversation among my collaborators and colleagues.

[01:42] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[01:43] Kecia M Thomas: it was something that we noticed. We were at HERS, which is that higher ed boot camp for

[01:49] Kim Scott: Yes.

[01:50] Kecia M Thomas: women, and we started to notice that a lot of the younger women who are kind of first women in their departments or units are talking about how they're kind of minimized by their older male colleagues.

[02:08] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[02:09] Kecia M Thomas: one woman talked about literally being pet on the back and and the her

[02:14] Kim Scott: Like that.

[02:15] Kecia M Thomas: colleagues saying, you remind me of your my daughter. Whereas many of the more senior women were addressing, you know, issues of still isolated in my unit. And even though I've jumped all the hurdles, done all the things, I don't have the same reward and recognition as my peers. My

[02:38] Kim Scott: Yes.

[02:39] Kecia M Thomas: support systems are eroding, both family as well as mentors. and they're really, you know, somewhat disoriented. You know, I

[02:51] Kim Scott: Yes.

[02:51] Kecia M Thomas: worked hard, did all these things, and even in my leadership position. And people are treating me as though I'm a threat.

[03:00] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.

[03:01] Kecia M Thomas: And so in talking it through, we're like, it's like you go from pet to threat. And that's how that came about.

[03:06] Kim Scott: It's a very succinct yes.

[03:09] Kecia M Thomas: And subsequently, we developed a study using a snowball sample and not only

[03:16] Kim Scott: What's a snow what's a snowball sample?

[03:18] Kecia M Thomas: that's when, I send you a survey and I

[03:21] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[03:21] Kecia M Thomas: ask you, are there people in your network who should also be in our

[03:24] Kim Scott: Okay. Right.

[03:26] Kecia M Thomas: kind of responses? So, you know, that study gave us confirmation that yes, this is a thing, but it also gave us many narratives of what that looked like and how it showed up in these women's careers. And they were primarily faculty, but other people who work in higher ed, but we certainly saw some of the strongest responses from women of color. But

[03:53] Kim Scott: Yes.

[03:53] Kecia M Thomas: now, you know, 15 years almost later we've discovered that it's it's not simply the experience of women or even women of color. It's often what Dory Turnstall talks about as kind of super tokens. You know, people

[04:12] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[04:13] Kecia M Thomas: who find themselves, I think, severely underrepresented and working in environments where regardless of their performance, their difference matters

[04:25] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[04:26] Kecia M Thomas: and it matters across their careers.

[04:28] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. So what are some examples of what are some of the stories that you heard from from this research that really stand out to you?

[04:41] Kecia M Thomas: So a few narratives really focused on for the the pets.

[04:49] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[04:50] Kecia M Thomas: individuals saying that it feels as though you know their identity was more important than the work they thought they were hired to perform.

[05:01] Kim Scott: Yes Yes, yeah.

[05:04] Kecia M Thomas: And that, they were put being put on committees or given responsibilities for things that, you know, they were interested in, but really did not see as the majority of their jobs. And so not only was there a sense of being exploited, but also being underutilized for the very knowledge, skills and abilities and experiences that they had built up throughout, you know, their, you know, undergraduate, graduate training, internships, you know, these are largely early career folks.

[05:41] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[05:42] Kecia M Thomas: Whereas the more senior responses, you know, there was one for me that was really striking. this was someone who had been elected as the first female president of her professional society. And as

[05:57] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[05:58] Kecia M Thomas: president, you get to decide your platform. And

[06:01] Kim Scott: Yes.

[06:02] Kecia M Thomas: she found out quickly that she did not because

[06:05] Kim Scott: my gosh.

[06:06] Kecia M Thomas: her platform was one that centered gender.

[06:10] Kim Scott: Uh-huh.

[06:10] Kecia M Thomas: Right. She wanted to talk about the lack of diversity in this membership of this science organization. She wanted to talk about sexual harassment as a part of

[06:24] Kim Scott: Mm.

[06:24] Kecia M Thomas: her platform and you know, really received a lot of resistance in wanting to do that. And clearly the membership was threatened by her, you know, desire to do that.

[06:38] Kim Scott: Yeah, and it wasn't just her desi it was her job to set the agenda, actually. It wasn't just her

[06:41] Kecia M Thomas: Right. Absolutely.

[06:43] Kim Scott: her desire. That was what she had been elected to do. I I I wanna share a story from early in my career. And I think this is my pet story, and then I have another threat story. And you can you can analyze whether I got this right. But at one point early in my career, I had been the the I was living in New York City and the Council on Foreign Relations, which is this very kind of hoity toity organization, decided they needed more young members. Well, they needed more women and they couldn't they they wouldn't hire women who were at the same level as the men. So they they brought in a bunch of

[07:21] Kecia M Thomas: More vulnerable women.

[07:23] Kim Scott: Yes, term members, right? and so I I you know, and I was so excited. It was this incredible networking opportunity. And and I had I had started a a company, started a software company and the company hadn't marked out, so I had I was winding it down. So I was not employed. And when you asked a question in this organization, you had to stand up and state your name and affiliation. But I was not affiliated. I was just me at this point. But some older guy stood up and said, I'm so-and-so and I'm unaffiliated, meaning he was a retired billionaire. And I was like, Okay, well, I'll borrow that term. And I stood up and I said, I'm I'm Kim, I was Kim Malone then. I'm Kim Malone and I'm unaffiliated. And somebody in the back of the room yelled out, unaffiliated or unattacked. Sh and I just I was so humiliated. So is that pet is

[08:26] Kecia M Thomas: Right.

[08:26] Kim Scott: that like a way to kind of belittle me, to pet me, to threaten me, or like what what what was that?

[08:33] Kecia M Thomas: Yeah, I I think that's just bad behavior, Kim. I don't I don't really see that

[08:35] Kim Scott: Yes, yes, it was rude. it was bullying.

[08:39] Kecia M Thomas: as falling into pets a threat, although the desire, right, to add greater gender diversity to the organization and strategically

[08:47] Kim Scott: Yes.

[08:48] Kecia M Thomas: make the decision to go after more junior women and put

[08:54] Kim Scott: Yes.

[08:55] Kecia M Thomas: them in these term roles really

[08:57] Kim Scott: Yes.

[08:58] Kecia M Thomas: speaks to them. treating those women as, transactional, temporary and

[09:06] Kim Scott: Yes.

[09:07] Kecia M Thomas: the motivation being for the identity rather than the unique perspectives and backgrounds that they could offer.

[09:13] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That that makes a lot of sense. So can I tell you my threat story and you can analyze that?

[09:19] Kecia M Thomas: Yes, please do.

[09:20] Kim Scott: So here's my here's when I suddenly realized I was a a threat. Like again, I had spent most of my career feeling like I wasn't being taken seriously. And then one day when I was working at Google, my HR person came to me and said that everyone was intimidated by me. And I was like, I've been spending my whole career trying to be taken seriously. And this week I became intimidating? how did how did that happen? Yeah, yeah,

[09:48] Kecia M Thomas: I turned on the switch.

[09:50] Kim Scott: what happened? And and she explained to me, well, now you have a big job. And so now you're in, you know, it's nothing you've done, but your role. but I don't think that a man who had been hired into that would be told he was intimidating just because he had the job.

[10:07] Kecia M Thomas: No, he would be, discussed as a leader.

[10:10] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yes.

[10:12] Kecia M Thomas: Again, I I think it's the the novelty perhaps of

[10:17] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[10:19] Kecia M Thomas: having a woman in that leadership role, which I think disrupts and you know, we talked about Melinda Jones uses this term, the cultural default

[10:31] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[10:31] Kecia M Thomas: of you know, who leaders are in that organization. And that discomfort leads people to act in very unproductive. and often biased ways, you know, from my perspective. Yeah,

[10:42] Kim Scott: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[10:47] Kecia M Thomas: discomfort in organizations is really, you know, I've come to the conclusion is the killer, is

[10:55] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[10:55] Kecia M Thomas: the thing that really holds us back.

[10:58] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And and I think if we can learn to embrace the discomfort, we can move forward as organizations. But we have the only way out is through. if we reject the feelings of discomfort, we're just gonna make the problem worse, I think.

[11:15] Kecia M Thomas: Yes. And I I do want to go back to pet to thread a little bit because you know, people talk about it so much, especially

[11:25] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[11:26] Kecia M Thomas: in social media. I've had young Gen Zers contact me and say, I talked about pet to thread on TikTok and I went viral. And I'm like, You did? Why?

[11:38] Kim Scott: Ha ha

[11:41] Kecia M Thomas: and so I think most people have come away with you know, pet to pet threat as something that occurs relatively quickly within the course of your career and I hear people saying, well, I outperformed someone's expectations and then I became a threat. And that I think is, you know, probable. But again, when we were doing this research and published the original data that was 2013 and we were

[12:11] Kim Scott: Yes.

[12:11] Kecia M Thomas: really focused on how the larger societal environment was so focused on diversity and inclusion that those motivations often placed marginalized especially more junior professionals in that pet role you know organizations

[12:33] Kim Scott: Yes.

[12:34] Kecia M Thomas: i think many sincerely wanted to diversify their companies or their institutions but they just really didn't know how to do it.

[12:44] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.

[12:44] Kecia M Thomas: And didn't know how to really treat those individuals with the respect that you know they had earned because of their knowledge, skills and abilities and not

[12:56] Kim Scott: Yes.

[12:57] Kecia M Thomas: simply their identities.

[12:59] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. And then the assumption was, you just got hired because you are X, which was Yeah, yeah.

[13:04] Kecia M Thomas: Right. If it's not one thing, it's the other. Right. Either you're a pet or the presumption is that there was some you know, favoritism or I can't think of the term. Yeah, that led

[13:15] Kim Scott: Yeah. Unfair process or something. Yeah.

[13:20] Kecia M Thomas: to your being in that position.

[13:22] Kim Scott: And so other thoughts on misinterpretations of pet to threat. for me one of the things that's most painful is that people will use radical candor as an excuse to act like a jerk, which is the opposite of w what I meant.

[13:36] Kecia M Thomas: Yes. Right.

[13:38] Kim Scott: Are there other misinterpretations of pet to threat that are out there that you'd like to clear up for folks?

[13:45] Kecia M Thomas: Yeah, sure. And one of the things I come away with is that not all bad behavior directed towards women, women of color, black women is pet the threat. Sometimes it

[14:00] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[14:00] Kecia M Thomas: truly is bias, discrimination, harassment, bullying,

[14:03] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yes, but

[14:05] Kecia M Thomas: without the context of what the motivations are for you being in that role to begin with.

[14:12] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[14:12] Kecia M Thomas: Now, given the amount of time that has passed since we did the original research and, you know, reading the hundreds, maybe thousands of comments over the years, I do think there are other conditions that could promote pet to threat. I think

[14:28] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[14:30] Kecia M Thomas: Having a new leadership may change, you know, your positionality in your department or role, whereas,

[14:39] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[14:40] Kecia M Thomas: you know, one leader saw you as prized and the other might see you as a problem.

[14:47] Kim Scott: Yes.

[14:48] Kecia M Thomas: I think you know, the the first pet to threat iteration focused on kind of societal climate and culture. And I think

[14:59] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[14:59] Kecia M Thomas: we're in a a similar

[15:00] Kim Scott: A very different

[15:02] Kecia M Thomas: position now that is opposite.

[15:04] Kim Scott: Yes.

[15:06] Kecia M Thomas: so I think that creates dynamics in that people who two years ago again would have been prized are now being perceived as problematic.

[15:16] Kim Scott: thank you so much for naming this, for giving this if something is happening to people over and over and over again, it's really useful to have a label for what this behavior is so that you can recognize it and realize that you're not alone. I think it it builds it builds solidarity. between black women and also between black and white women because we we all experience it in different in different ways.

[15:46] Kecia M Thomas: Absolutely. And I have had colleagues reach out to me at events where I wasn't talking about Pet to Threat, who made the connection.

[15:55] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[15:57] Kecia M Thomas: I was speaking in front of one group of former chief diversity officers and a man spoke up and said, you know, I saw your Forbes article and I sent it to my three daughters because they

[16:10] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[16:10] Kecia M Thomas: needed to know what the landscape was going to look like after college and grad school. I've heard men who are gay come up

[16:22] Kim Scott: Mm.

[16:22] Kecia M Thomas: me and say, this was my experience. I was feeling very alone and isolated in it. and when I described it to a coworker, she gave me your article.

[16:34] Kim Scott: Yes.

[16:35] Kecia M Thomas: And it helped to explain, you know, what was going on. So, you know, as much as, you know, we kind of resist being tied to one thing, I realize that it does help break that isolation and and give people a different framework for how to understand their experience and not internalize it.

[16:57] Kim Scott: well thank you for for giving it a name that we can all remember and that helps us feel less isolated in the moment. A whole wide range of people. can we also talk about some of your other research though now? Okay.

[17:12] Kecia M Thomas: I would love that.

[17:14] Kim Scott: so You would think if you were a company trying to hire people, you would want to maximize the size of your hiring pool, right? and you would think that if you were gonna promote people, you'd want to make sure that you promoted the people who were gonna do a best the best job at that next level. And yet That doesn't seem to be what's happening. There's there's resistance. So what's going on? Why is there this resistance to opening the aperture and saying there's a lot of talented people in the world. Let's make sure we're looking at all of them.

[17:51] Kecia M Thomas: Yeah, so you know, I have two editions of a book on diversity resistance and organizations hoping to start working on a third.

[18:02] Kim Scott: good.

[18:03] Kecia M Thomas: but you know, the initial edition really presented a taxonomy of what diversity resistance looks like.

[18:12] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[18:12] Kecia M Thomas: And the taxonomy, your radical candor, we're looking at the level of analysis. Is resistance

[18:19] Kim Scott: Mm.

[18:20] Kecia M Thomas: an interpersonal experience or is it an experience driven by the organization, which

[18:26] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[18:27] Kecia M Thomas: ultimately, right, is always going to be leadership? And then On the other axis, are we talking about hostile, overt, in your face, racial slurs, violence, threat of violence, or are

[18:39] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[18:42] Kecia M Thomas: we talking about the more subtle, covert ways in which being different in that environment creates exclusion, being diminished, avoided, dismissed?

[18:58] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[18:59] Kecia M Thomas: And I thought it was important for that first book, and I think that came out in like two thousand seven, two thousand and eight, to elevate that yes, we still have really egregiously bad behavior in organizations. And what drove me to even thinking about diversity resistance was the rise of hangmen's nooses in the workplace. Yeah.

[19:23] Kim Scott: my gosh. I did not know that.

[19:26] Kecia M Thomas: So in the early 2000s, my graduate students and I were tracking nooses, workplace nooses. There was a a very big case in Atlanta that earned kind of national media attention. And I think they tried to pursue class action status with it's a very large organization. That did

[19:52] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[19:53] Kecia M Thomas: not work. But what we uncovered was that there were noose incidents in every state in the country.

[20:01] Kim Scott: my gosh.

[20:02] Kecia M Thomas: And that, our our qualitative review of those cases is that they were almost always targeted towards people of color, usually

[20:11] Kim Scott: Mm.

[20:12] Kecia M Thomas: black individuals, and for two different reasons. The first was that this person had been promoted into a supervisory or leadership

[20:21] Kim Scott: My gosh.

[20:22] Kecia M Thomas: position, they were a threat, or they had made A complaint about discrimination, harassment, or bullying that they have faced. So retaliation.

[20:36] Kim Scott: my gosh.

[20:37] Kecia M Thomas: And this occurred in office environments. It incurred occurred in blue collar environ environments in front of someone's locker. and it got so bad. I think once people understood that we were collecting these cases, people would send it to us in the mail. And I was like, I

[20:54] Kim Scott: Wow.

[20:55] Kecia M Thomas: can't write about this anymore. Like it it was too like emotionally, right?

[20:57] Kim Scott: my gosh, it's so upsetting. Yeah.

[21:00] Kecia M Thomas: damaging and so I shift it to like yes this is important this is important but a lot of managers leaders because those nooses aren't showing up in their organizations believe that everything is fine when we know it isn't

[21:18] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[21:19] Kecia M Thomas: and there is the social exclusion what social psychologists pre-2020 would call social distancing that

[21:27] Kim Scott: Aha.

[21:28] Kecia M Thomas: occurred That excluded people from developmental opportunities, mentoring, networks, coaching, sponsorship, that had really significant limitations on their careers. And that we needed to really dive into those kind of covert ways in which We as workers interpersonally engage in that exclusion or dismissal, but also the ways in which organizations I think promote a value system or ideals that help to reinforce that. So again, the 2000s thinking about organizations that promoted colorblind language, we're all the same, we don't see differences.

[22:17] Kim Scott: Mm. Yeah.

[22:20] Kecia M Thomas: who you know, Walmart, for example, you recall the big gender discrimination suit and

[22:27] Kim Scott: Mm.

[22:28] Kecia M Thomas: pregnancy discrimination. there was one legal brief where they said, Well, we can't standardize what happens in each of our stores. And it's like, really? If you have someone at the door saying, Welcome to

[22:39] Kim Scott: What?

[22:42] Kecia M Thomas: Walmart, you can't standardize the HR practices. So saying

[22:46] Kim Scott: Wow.

[22:47] Kecia M Thomas: that it's a societal issue, it's out of my hands, is also a way that we, you know, I think in organizations have kind of turned our back to dealing with the real world experiences of people who are different from that cultural default.

[23:04] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. you know, it's i I feel like the the nooses is something I should have been aware of. Like because it wouldn't happen to me, and I wouldn't do it to someone else doesn't mean it's not happening all the time. And it's so egregious and horrible that

[23:24] Kecia M Thomas: Yeah.

[23:25] Kim Scott: it's har it's like people det

[23:27] Kecia M Thomas: A few times when I spoke, people thought I was speaking like metaphorically. And I was like,

[23:32] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[23:35] Kecia M Thomas: No, these are ropes tied into

[23:37] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[23:37] Kecia M Thomas: nooses being used to intimidate people. And I get a little defensive when people put nooses in the same kind of grouping as slurs or symbols, because nooses are actual instruments, right? They're

[23:54] Kim Scott: Yes.

[23:55] Kecia M Thomas: They're more than language.

[23:55] Kim Scott: Yeah. It feels more like a death it's not an it's not an insult. It's a death threat. I mean it's

[24:01] Kecia M Thomas: Right.

[24:01] Kim Scott: and there's a there's both are bad, but one is worse than the other, you know? emotionally

[24:06] Kecia M Thomas: Yes.

[24:07] Kim Scott: to come come into work and s and see something like that. It I don't know how you get through the day.

[24:15] Kecia M Thomas: Right, no, you don't. You call

[24:17] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.

[24:19] Kecia M Thomas: your lawyer, you call your family, you know, people quit.

[24:23] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[24:24] Kecia M Thomas: you know, fortunately we have, you know, there have been some very brave people to bring these cases to the forefront into the media so that people like me could better understand the vulnerabilities that exist when you are promoted or when you do make a legitimate complaint of mistreatment.

[24:43] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's really it's important for people to whom this sort of stuff doesn't happen to understand that it does happen. It happens with some frequency. and and gathering these stories, one of the things about this kind of really horrible behavior that happens is that it's hard to talk about it without seeming unhinged, it's so awful and it happens all the time. And I think it's important that people know that. So thank you for doing the research. And I mean, it must have been horrible for you to do. Like getting these stories to

[25:24] Kecia M Thomas: Well, I think shifting to the you know, subtle covert forms of resistance that undermine

[25:32] Kim Scott: Yes.

[25:33] Kecia M Thomas: people's performance and careers, because I feel like that is, you know, much more pervasive. You know, I

[25:39] Kim Scott: Yes.

[25:40] Kecia M Thomas: think even if there is one news case in the state per year, it's too much.

[25:44] Kim Scott: It's too many, yeah.

[25:46] Kecia M Thomas: but I think most people reasonable people will understand that if you're an organization and you are experiencing benign neglect

[26:00] Kim Scott: Yes.

[26:01] Kecia M Thomas: and you see your coworkers being mentored and socialized into that organization, you know, over time it does have some significant performance and career development limitations.

[26:15] Kim Scott: Yeah, huge sometimes. what are some other you've also got incredible research on how good intentions and well meaning behaviors d derail an organization's ability to attract and retain and promote the people who are best at the job. So what are some of what are some of the examples from from your research of of that

[26:36] Kecia M Thomas: Yeah. I love love talking about that research because I typically, if I'm doing a presentation, will show a series of images from large, you know, Fortune 500

[26:48] Kim Scott: Yes.

[26:49] Kecia M Thomas: companies that have gone awry. Because

[26:52] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[26:52] Kecia M Thomas: again, there's been such a desire to present as being diversity oriented and inclusive. But as my daughter would say, apparently these people never took a humanities course because they are

[27:07] Kim Scott: But didn't study their history.

[27:08] Kecia M Thomas: completely clueless about some of the historical context of the images that they are pushing forth. And I think, you know, there was one within the last month. But yet a number of the, young clothing companies, cosmetic companies, you know, will diversify the range of colors that are presented, but then reinforce the message that white is the goal, that white is the center.

[27:38] Kim Scott: my gosh. ki what are some examples?

[27:41] Kecia M Thomas: So there was multiple ads by Dove, the soap company.

[27:47] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. yeah.

[27:49] Kecia M Thomas: Which of course is celebrated f for racial diversity, size inclusivity.

[27:55] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[27:56] Kecia M Thomas: and there was one ad w for lotion, right, that the before is someone with dark skin, but the after is, you know, she literally takes off her dark skin to reveal

[28:09] Kim Scott: my gosh.

[28:10] Kecia M Thomas: white, moisturized skin.

[28:12] Kim Scott: gosh.

[28:15] Kecia M Thomas: Nivea has or had an ad targeting men for their male lotions. I didn't, you know, not that lotion has a gender, but

[28:23] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Yeah, we all have skin.

[28:27] Kecia M Thomas: it was like civilize you. And it was a young African American man with, you know, what many people would say a professional haircut, close shaved,

[28:36] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[28:37] Kecia M Thomas: neat, no beard, holding the head. of an African

[28:41] Kim Scott: How much?

[28:42] Kecia M Thomas: American male with a huge afro.

[28:45] Kim Scott: it's it's hard to understand how that happens. How did that happen? Yeah, I guess.

[28:48] Kecia M Thomas: It's the wrong people, Kim. It literally is is the wrong people. And, you know, in this climate, when we so when we see so many individuals losing their roles, layoffs, feeling pushed out. one

[29:02] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[29:05] Kecia M Thomas: of my colleagues said, you know, we're returning to the snow cap of leadership.

[29:10] Kim Scott: huh.

[29:11] Kecia M Thomas: Like who's who's gonna bring that up? Who's gonna

[29:14] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[29:14] Kecia M Thomas: say, I I think that might be inappropriate or this community might be harmed by this image or it makes us look

[29:22] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[29:22] Kecia M Thomas: bad.

[29:23] Kim Scott: well, speak truth to power without blowing up your career is is

[29:27] Kecia M Thomas: All right.

[29:28] Kim Scott: is is something I advocate. people have peop

[29:31] Kecia M Thomas: Yeah, so going back to the good intentions work, so you know, presenting those ads I think helped to kind of set the stage. But

[29:45] Kim Scott: Mm.

[29:45] Kecia M Thomas: I also talk about, you know, the well-meaning microaggressions, you know, you're so articulate. I can't

[29:50] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yes.

[29:54] Kecia M Thomas: even tell you the number of times that people have said that to me.

[29:57] Kim Scott: So for our listeners who are not familiar with the you're so articulate problem, I mean Let me let me try to explain it and you can tell me where I get it right and where I get it wrong. If you and I are both on stage together, the odds that someone comes up to me afterwards and says, Kim, you're so articulate are quite low. I don't think anybody has ever said that to me. So what

[30:21] Kecia M Thomas: Yes.

[30:21] Kim Scott: my assumption of why someone would say that to you and not to me is that they expected me to be articulate as a white woman, but they didn't expect you to be articulate as a black woman. Is that basically the the

[30:32] Kecia M Thomas: Yeah, that's absolutely how I would frame it. And I have to tell you, I use this story in my classes quite a bit. I was and I I mentioned hers to you earlier. hers stands for higher education resource services. It's kind of a boot

[30:49] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[30:50] Kecia M Thomas: camp for women in higher ed who might be considered presidential candidates.

[30:55] Kim Scott: Mm.

[30:57] Kecia M Thomas: I was doing this year-long program at Wellesley flying up to Boston every month. And so the group becomes pretty cohesive in a year. And I recall

[31:07] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[31:08] Kecia M Thomas: being at a break. And I should say there were three black women from my institution in that particular cohort. So

[31:16] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[31:19] Kecia M Thomas: that's that's risky right there. A senior white female leader came up to me

[31:27] Kim Scott: Mm.

[31:27] Kecia M Thomas: and she said, Juanita, Juanita. I was like, I think I must have made a face. And she said, you're not Juanita. I'm like, Nope. I'm Keisha. I'm one of the other ones. But then she went

[31:35] Kim Scott: No. gosh.

[31:40] Kecia M Thomas: on and said, Yeah, I just so appreciate the contributions you make to our conversation. You know, you are just so articulate. I wonder if you've had some particular training or workshop. Okay, mind you, I have a PhD. I stopped and I said, I went to the Condolisa Rice School of Public Speaking. And she stopped and she thought I was serious. I was like, No, I'm

[32:10] Kim Scott: my gosh.

[32:12] Kecia M Thomas: kidding. I am and And I think she got that maybe she spoke a bit out of turn. Yes.

[32:17] Kim Scott: Yeah, she had stepped in it twice in a row. and these kinds of unintended offenses, I mean I'm sure she didn't intend to do it, but she it it's impact, not intentions that matter in these moments. And that's why I'm so grateful to you for telling these stories. Because now when people hear they're not gonna make that mistake, hopefully. yeah.

[32:42] Kecia M Thomas: I hope not. I hope not. And so, you know, those are the microaggressions are certainly like interpersonal, right, forms

[32:50] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[32:51] Kecia M Thomas: of diversity resistance that show up in these well-intended behaviors. But organizations also fall back on strategies that they believe will help them net a greater diversity of candidates in a pool or you know attract diverse candidates, but actually they do the opposite. So

[33:15] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[33:15] Kecia M Thomas: one area I've worked in is around again around colorblindness with Vicky Plout, who's at Berkeley. We

[33:22] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[33:23] Kecia M Thomas: were doing a climate study. for a large healthcare organization. And, you know, like good researchers, we throw in a couple of research items. And you know, what we expected and discovered was that at the department level, departments that had more colorblind messaging from leaders

[33:49] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[33:49] Kecia M Thomas: ended up And coworkers ended up having minority employees who were less engaged compared to departments where the messaging around diversity was more multicultural. Like

[34:04] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[34:05] Kecia M Thomas: we see everyone, we value everyone, everyone can make a difference, versus a colorblind message that we're all the same, we're in this together, we're one thing. And what we discovered, further in that data is that colorblind messages signal identity threat

[34:25] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[34:26] Kecia M Thomas: to members of groups who have been historically disadvantaged.

[34:30] Kim Scott: Yes.

[34:31] Kecia M Thomas: It says like if you can't see me in my totality, am I really safe in this environment? Am I at risk for discrimination? Am I at risk for harassment? So

[34:44] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[34:44] Kecia M Thomas: when organizations send out their recruitment messaging and fall back on colorblindness, the same thing is occurring. I

[34:56] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[34:56] Kecia M Thomas: think another kind of organizational slip that's made, and this isn't my research, but several others. actually that has come out since 2020 is messaging around the role of diversity. So are we pursuing diversity for its instrumentality because we believe it's gonna give us a greater return on investment, help us reach new markets, help us think more with more complexity. Or do we think we are pursuing diversity because of our justice orientation or simply because of who we are? Now

[35:38] Kim Scott: Right.

[35:38] Kecia M Thomas: you might imagine that depending on the audience, you might value one of those messages more than the other. And

[35:46] Kim Scott: Yes.

[35:47] Kecia M Thomas: typically white leaders, workers, like that instrumentality argument. That is

[35:56] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[35:57] Kecia M Thomas: less appealing if you are the target audience attempting

[36:00] Kim Scott: Right.

[36:01] Kecia M Thomas: to be recruited or onboarded. And in fact, there was a study, Sinclair, Stark et al. that looked at those messaging messages in higher ed institutions.

[36:15] Kim Scott: Mm.

[36:16] Kecia M Thomas: And that instrumentality argument when it's made by universities and colleges really turns off minority families and

[36:25] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[36:25] Kecia M Thomas: it's a signal to guidance counselors, to people who are supporting students to apply to universities, that those kids are not going to be in a diverse environment and there might be some level of petness, I would say.

[36:42] Kim Scott: Yes, yes.

[36:45] Kecia M Thomas: so again, we have organizations engaging in what they believe to be, you know, good, well-intentioned behaviors that I guess appear logical, but not

[36:57] Kim Scott: Mm.

[36:57] Kecia M Thomas: understanding how they are received by the audience that they're trying

[37:01] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[37:02] Kecia M Thomas: to connect with.

[37:03] Kim Scott: Yes, yeah. No, that's that's really important. I think I I wonder if this is an example of my good intentions gone awry. So I wanna I I'm gonna solicit

[37:12] Kecia M Thomas: Okay.

[37:13] Kim Scott: some feedback here. So in radical respect, I d I wrote about bias, prejudice, and bullying, which which are the commonplace terms for these behaviors. And I tried to sort of differentiate between them. And I have found in today's environment it sometimes works better to talk about unintended offenses instead of bias because it's a little more specific about what's going on. and and instead of talking about prejudice to talk about intolerant beliefs to use those. So am I am I falling into the instrumentality? what do you think about that strategy for today's environment?

[37:58] Kecia M Thomas: think you're falling into the instrumentality trap or the colorblindness trap. But I think the demand on people

[38:10] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[38:10] Kecia M Thomas: like us who do this work to engage in this you know linguistic gymnastics. and creates more I think, invisible and emotional labor for us.

[38:25] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[38:26] Kecia M Thomas: And I think subsequently, again, if I think about the audience,

[38:31] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[38:32] Kecia M Thomas: if you're speaking to the group where you are trying to support and elevate. workers who have been disadvantaged and historically excluded.

[38:43] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[38:44] Kecia M Thomas: It may also appear that you're being overly inclusive and

[38:48] Kim Scott: Yes.

[38:49] Kecia M Thomas: you're not understanding the extent or appreciating the extent to which their identity that they have no control over

[38:57] Kim Scott: Right.

[38:58] Kecia M Thomas: creates a unique experience for them. So yeah,

[39:01] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[39:04] Kecia M Thomas: it it's a hard challenge to to overcome. Yeah,

[39:09] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[39:09] Kecia M Thomas: so the third edition of diversity resistance, Knockwood, is

[39:13] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[39:14] Kecia M Thomas: going to really focus on you know these sorts of issues.

[39:20] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[39:21] Kecia M Thomas: You know, the the new forms of invisible labor and emotional labor, of the grief that if we were

[39:28] Kim Scott: Mm.

[39:29] Kecia M Thomas: to talk about diversity and inclusion work as a sector

[39:33] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[39:34] Kecia M Thomas: the grief that professionals in that area are experiencing, the anxiety around am I next, the surviv survivor guilt of perhaps maintaining your job when others have been

[39:47] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[39:49] Kecia M Thomas: released. and then last the moral injury of participating

[39:53] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[39:54] Kecia M Thomas: and protecting a system. That one, you know, two years ago you were working hard to protect and elevate, but now you're a participant in it, and you might

[40:05] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[40:05] Kecia M Thomas: even be hurting your own community.

[40:07] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.

[40:09] Kecia M Thomas: So, you know, how do we as professionals protect ourselves, our well-being, and then continue to do the work that we know is needed.

[40:21] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. well, I think you are lighting the way by continue by right coming out with a third edition. So thank you for continuing to do the work.

[40:33] Kecia M Thomas: Fingers crossed.

[40:33] Kim Scott: yes, fingers crossed, knocking on wood. can we talk for a minute? you also have really good research on what it feels like to be a leader and come from a from a from a historically margin marginalized group or or, underrepresented group. So what what's the wha what are some of your words of wisdom for people who have achieved those leadership roles and now now they're having to deal with the threat part of the pet to threat.

[41:06] Kecia M Thomas: Yes, right right before I began my big leadership role. I published

[41:12] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[41:12] Kecia M Thomas: an article leading as the other.

[41:14] Kim Scott: Mm.

[41:15] Kecia M Thomas: and it was really driven by just reflections of getting to this point.

[41:22] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[41:23] Kecia M Thomas: And I think historically throughout my entire career, you know, I had been the token or I

[41:30] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[41:31] Kecia M Thomas: had been the pioneer. And when other you know members of marginalized group came into my organization, they left. And often I was the survivor. And

[41:43] Kim Scott: Mm.

[41:44] Kecia M Thomas: I think staying in those places at least gave the organization a sense of comfort that, well,

[41:52] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[41:53] Kecia M Thomas: Keisha's still here.

[41:54] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[41:55] Kecia M Thomas: So it can't be too bad. but I think you know, there's Going back to pet to threat, the isolation that

[42:06] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[42:08] Kecia M Thomas: extends beyond, you know, your career level. There is the labor of prioritizing others' comfort with your,

[42:18] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[42:20] Kecia M Thomas: you know, just physically being in that space.

[42:23] Kim Scott: Yeah, you just walk in the room as yourself and yeah.

[42:27] Kecia M Thomas: Right. And the constant, I think, justification for why you deserve to be there. And in fact,

[42:30] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[42:33] Kecia M Thomas: HBR had an article recently. I talked about it on LinkedIn. You know, the prove it again bias.

[42:40] Kim Scott: Yes.

[42:41] Kecia M Thomas: When you are, and this is my next book beyond this diversity resistance will be on being unexpected. When you are unexpected, you are always having to prove You belong and so you're asked

[42:53] Kim Scott: Yes.

[42:54] Kecia M Thomas: to prove it again and again and again.

[42:56] Kim Scott: And again, yes. And that is exhausting.

[43:01] Kecia M Thomas: And it's exhausting. And because of the isolation, I think is particularly critical that you build your own cafeteria table. So,

[43:12] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[43:13] Kecia M Thomas: you know, Beverly Tatum has that book, Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together at the Cafeteria Table?

[43:19] Kim Scott: Right.

[43:19] Kecia M Thomas: And that table provides a source of not only support, but it's a vehicle for reality testing, for

[43:26] Kim Scott: Yes.

[43:27] Kecia M Thomas: validation, for mentoring. and so if you are a leader from one of those groups, and maybe it's a group that isn't even visible to your coworkers, but

[43:41] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[43:41] Kecia M Thomas: it's a part of your identity that you're having to navigate daily, you absolutely need to form that community and that table that is going to help sustain you throughout your career.

[43:55] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. The building solidarity is so important. so that you can talk about these things that happen and and not have to explain all the content like people get it. Yeah, yes, exactly, exactly.

[44:09] Kecia M Thomas: Right, and prove it again. And you know, our the industrial organizational psychology literature really falls heavily on building a constellation of mentors from various

[44:21] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes.

[44:25] Kecia M Thomas: groups that help provide an insight. into the hidden curriculum of your organization that you may have never had access to, that your parents didn't experience, or perhaps anyone in your family had experienced. So it's really critical. And you

[44:44] Kim Scott: Yes.

[44:44] Kecia M Thomas: know, there is even some compensation literature that talks about having a white male mentor comes with an economic premium.

[44:53] Kim Scott: Yes.

[44:54] Kecia M Thomas: And you know, if you're a woman or a person of color, you're less likely to one have a mentor, but certainly have a white male mentor. But unfortunately, having that type of mentor provides in a very racist way credibility and validation that perhaps may create opportunities for you and

[45:15] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[45:16] Kecia M Thomas: help you kind of leverage your experience to greater compensation.

[45:21] Kim Scott: Yes. And it's gonna be harder for you to f to attract that mentor than someone who looks like that mentor, which is, you know, yet another bit of of labor. Yeah. Yes, yeah.

[45:30] Kecia M Thomas: Yeah, similar to me bias. Mm-hmm.

[45:34] Kim Scott: there was an engineering leader at Google who talked about this very wisely, a a black man, and he posted to people, he said, if you hey underrepresented folks, if you want to get promoted, this is not fair, but this is good advice. He said you need to find a difficulty anchor. You if you're working on something that's hard, you need to find someone who's senior to you at the organization and go to them and say, I want to get your help on this project. Because the problem is if you succeed on the project, everybody's gonna say, so and so did it, it must have been easy. And you Yes. And so you need

[46:11] Kecia M Thomas: It wasn't that hard. Absolutely. Yes.

[46:15] Kim Scott: this difficulty anchor who's gonna who's gonna help you, you know, overcome some of the diff difficulties and then help you explain to people that it was, in fact, incredible what you just achieved. Which is unfair, but I thought it was useful advice.

[46:28] Kecia M Thomas: Yeah. And it can be a a slippery slope. So I've I've published with a former student, Chang Ya, who on proactive socialization. So you

[46:41] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[46:42] Kecia M Thomas: know, organizations, you know, that literature pretty much does a blanket recommendation that you engage in proactive socialization as a newcomer. you seek feedback, you seek information, you try to develop friendships and mentoring relationships.

[46:59] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[46:59] Kecia M Thomas: But there's there is a balance there. if you're

[47:02] Kim Scott: Yes.

[47:03] Kecia M Thomas: a person of color doing that in a largely white organization, you might also trigger implicit beliefs that you are needy, that you got in by

[47:12] Kim Scott: Yes. Yes. Ugh.

[47:15] Kecia M Thomas: preferential treatment, that you don't belong.

[47:18] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

[47:20] Kecia M Thomas: So I think it's important, to take those recommendations, you know, with a grain of salt and understand

[47:27] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[47:27] Kecia M Thomas: the context that you're working in. And then

[47:29] Kim Scott: Yes.

[47:30] Kecia M Thomas: so, you know, to add on to that engineer's recommendation, I would say yes, you know, ask for help, but also center what you already know

[47:43] Kim Scott: Yes.

[47:44] Kecia M Thomas: and reinforce unfortunately, your competence. And asking for help.

[47:51] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It's such tricky waters to navigate. I know, I know. I know

[47:55] Kecia M Thomas: I get tired of talking about it.

[47:58] Kim Scott: too. but I think the more we talk about it and the more we share, the the better people will know will be able to navigate. We're we're charting uncharted un un uncharted waters here for a lot of people. And I think it's it's what your research is really helpful for for folks. before I know we're just about time, but before we go, can we talk a little bit about class? I think you and I both read the article in the in the New York Times about the class ceiling. And much as our society pretends that, you know, not to see color, we also pretend not to see class. So can we talk a little bit about that

[48:44] Kecia M Thomas: Yeah. And so, you know, that article describes a study conducted by economists that demonstrates that in higher ed in particular there is a strong class bias and that people like myself who sh who earn tenure and get promoted are more likely to come from families where parents went to graduate school and

[49:06] Kim Scott: Right.

[49:08] Kecia M Thomas: probably also earned a PhD. I don't think this is all that different from any other kind of early early life socialization. Lawyers produce lawyers, medical doctors produce medical doctors.

[49:18] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yes. Yes.

[49:23] Kecia M Thomas: Now the problem of course is that not every family had access to higher ed and to entry into those professions.

[49:34] Kim Scott: Exactly.

[49:35] Kecia M Thomas: I think the the write up seems to suggest that class can be even more influential in whether or not you end up at a R one institution as a tenured faculty member than race or gender. And that is is what you know they will dive into more in the future because I do feel as though it's kind of a social distance thing.

[50:00] Kim Scott: Yes.

[50:01] Kecia M Thomas: and by talking about these identities one by one, it's almost as though you can be one or the other when the reality is we are all existing on multiple dimensions of all the of these identities

[50:15] Kim Scott: Yes.

[50:16] Kecia M Thomas: at at once. We are intersectional.

[50:19] Kim Scott: Yes.

[50:19] Kecia M Thomas: And so, you know, I'm first generation. I come from a blue-collar family. My dad worked a second shift job, a job after that job, and sometimes

[50:30] Kim Scott: Wow.

[50:31] Kecia M Thomas: when I was really young, cut hair on Saturdays. Yet I

[50:34] Kim Scott: my gosh. Yeah.

[50:35] Kecia M Thomas: am also a product of private schools, K through 16, if I think about

[50:41] Kim Scott: Wow.

[50:41] Kecia M Thomas: my undergraduate institution. So I had access to all those environments.

[50:48] Kim Scott: Yes.

[50:48] Kecia M Thomas: But my race will always signal me as somewhat of an outsider, as well

[50:55] Kim Scott: Yes.

[50:56] Kecia M Thomas: as my gender. And although I understand the language, I understand how my you know cohorts, spent their time, their hobbies, it wasn't my culture as a

[51:11] Kim Scott: Yes.

[51:11] Kecia M Thomas: blue collar student, even when I had access to those spaces.

[51:16] Kim Scott: Yes.

[51:17] Kecia M Thomas: So there I think there is this invisible culture that as faculty we are navigating. And I have certainly been in the seminar room where s you know, the majority of people around the table talked about how their dads and it's almost always their dads were faculty.

[51:33] Kim Scott: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean it's I think it's I think the thing that interested me and maybe made me a little hopeful, I mean there were some questions about the article, but is that the more identities we can we can include in underrepresented identities, the the better we'll be able to cr build solidarity across different kinds of

[51:57] Kecia M Thomas: Right.

[51:58] Kim Scott: groups. And I think that's that's gonna be what helps move us forward.

[52:02] Kecia M Thomas: Hopefully the more connection people will make, like to the movement, if you wanna call it that. And the more empathy hopefully

[52:05] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yes.

[52:12] Kecia M Thomas: they will have for each other.

[52:13] Kim Scott: Yeah, and the more awareness that people will have of their respective advantages and disadvantages. I walk into a room and I have several unfair advantages and one unfair disadvantage, you know? And and it's been helpful for me to be aware of that. and and I think that w one of the one of the kind of strange things about that article to me was it kind of implied like The majority of of people who are not in the quote unquote upper class are white men. But I would say that a lot of different groups are represented by not being rich. and and white men are overly represented in the top one percent. an the the piece kinda lost sight of that obvious fact. I thought, I don't know what you thought.

[53:07] Kecia M Thomas: Sometimes you just have to tell people, look around.

[53:10] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. Use your eyes. yeah, yeah. well, Keisha, thank you so much for joining me, for doing the research you're doing, for sharing stories that are painful to share, but I think important for people to know about. really enjoyed the conversation. How can how can the radical candor listeners follow you? What where' what what's the best way to keep in touch with you?

[53:37] Kecia M Thomas: Right. Well, thank you so much, Kim, for your interest in my work and doing what you do. so your listeners can find me, of course, on LinkedIn. Keisha is K-E-C-I-A. and I have a website that's Dr Keisha Thomas dot com.

[53:56] Kim Scott: All right, we'll put we'll put that in the show notes. Thank you so much. Really enjoyed the conversation.

[54:01] Kecia M Thomas: I did too. Thank you, Kim.

Transcript lightly edited for readability. Full transcript available on request.