How Can You Confront a Bullying Boss Without Losing Your Job? 8 | 28

[00:00] Christina Wing: What I will die on the mat for is ability to converse with people and have emotional intelligence is what's gonna survive and thrive in this AI situation.

[00:12] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Yes.

[00:14] Christina Wing: And so the student or the worker that is really good at doing everything but can't look anyone in the eye, they might get misplaced. But the person that actually understands to take this great information AI can put together for them, explain it, execute it, understand how it's gonna work with humans, they're gonna win.

[00:41] Kim Scott: Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Radical Sabbatical. I, Kim Scott, am here talking to the authors of books I love. And today I'm thrilled to be with Christina Wing, who wrote Unspeakable. Christina, welcome.

[00:58] Christina Wing: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to talk to you.

[01:02] Kim Scott: I have been looking forward to it all day long and I'm so grateful to you for writing this book. I think it's gonna help so many people in so many different aspects of life. Th I could talk to you about every page of the book, but I wanna zero in on one story that especially spoke to me, So you tell a story about I was it your first job experience on Wall Street where you had a boss who was bullying you?

[01:30] Christina Wing: Yes, it was my first job on Wall Street post graduating from college.

[01:34] Kim Scott: Okay. Okay. so describe what the boss was doing to you, if you don't mind, and then describe your response. This I listeners ask all the time, what do I do if my boss is a bully? And my new answer is do what Christina did. So

[01:52] Christina Wing: So, I mean, l to give a little bit of context, I was working at an investment bank in New York City and I had graduated from what was probably considered a tier three college in Texas. And so I already had imposter syndrome

[02:09] Kim Scott: I bet you probably weren't treated super respectfully. It's hard to it's hard to move to New York City and have a southern accent, having been a person who did that.

[02:16] Christina Wing: It it it is hard for that and also when you know I'm I'm old now. When I we moved there, women had to wear skirts and pantyhose. And so we already had a dress code for the women

[02:29] Kim Scott: yeah.

[02:30] Christina Wing: and we go through training and I have this boss who hates me.

[02:36] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[02:36] Christina Wing: just fundamentally hates me and I did not know how to do the modeling that he wanted me to do, financial modeling. But that's not why I was hired. You're hired to go through a training program and learn and use everything. And and he

[02:48] Kim Scott: Right. They're supposed to teach you to model. Right.

[02:53] Christina Wing: told me repeatedly for a while how stupid I was. How could I not get this? And I would stay up all night. This is before Claude and all these things where you could throw it in. And try

[03:03] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. You gotta use your brain.

[03:06] Christina Wing: And try to figure it out. And I finally came to the conclusion that either I had to quit or I had to make a change. And I really didn't know how to complain about your boss. The interesting thing is, the man, because they were all men,

[03:22] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[03:23] Christina Wing: the man on top of the man that I was working for was the world's nicest person.

[03:28] Kim Scott: Yes.

[03:29] Christina Wing: But I didn't want to go around my boss because I'd been told don't go around. And so finally when I hit wits end, I basically went to him and told him I

[03:39] Kim Scott: So you went to your boss, not your boss's boss.

[03:41] Christina Wing: went to my boss, not my boss's boss, and I said, You don't want to teach me, I'm not getting better, and we're both losing. And so I'm gonna ask to be reassigned tomorrow. And I genuinely meant it. And

[03:58] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[03:59] Christina Wing: My fellow analysts were all like, you know, three months out of college. We're like trying to pay our rent. They were like, you're gonna get fired. And I was like, I I'm gonna get fired no matter what, because I'm not gonna ever get better. And it gave him the awakening he needed. I don't know why I waited so long.

[04:17] Kim Scott: So wait, what what did he so you said this to him? What was the first thing he said back to you? You said,

[04:22] Christina Wing: Well

[04:23] Kim Scott: I'm gonna I'm gonna ask to be reassigned tomorrow. What was his like what was the initial

[04:28] Christina Wing: His initial reaction was basically like F you. You're

[04:31] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[04:32] Christina Wing: entitled, you're this, you you know, you didn't walk to school and snow both ways, like all those things.

[04:37] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

[04:39] Christina Wing: And I just said to him, Listen, I need a teacher. I have skills, but I don't have these skills, and I need a teacher, and I'm moving forward with it.

[04:48] Kim Scott: Yeah. Like there was one thing you wrote, as I recall, he said, You can't do that because then they'll think I'm not a good mentor, right? He said something along those lines. And what was your response to that? This was the real genius.

[04:56] Christina Wing: Yeah. So he he he he he didn't say that until I was out of his so I was down in a cubicle. He was in

[05:07] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[05:08] Christina Wing: a elevated cubicle, an office, but kind of. And as

[05:10] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

[05:11] Christina Wing: I was already gone, he was like, You just can't do that 'cause they're gonna think I'm not a good mentor. And

[05:19] Kim Scott: huh.

[05:19] Christina Wing: I remember looking at him and thinking, You suck as a mentor. Like

[05:22] Kim Scott: You're not a good mentor. I would be right.

[05:25] Christina Wing: like Like I got the booby prize being assigned to you. And I, you know, went about, finished my day, which was probably midnight back in those days, and went home and thought to myself, I'm gonna get fired because I am a woman from the South that really doesn't know what she's doing in comparison. My analyst class was in the thirties. Everyone was Ivy

[05:49] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

[05:52] Christina Wing: League or close to. And We didn't have email even yet. And the

[05:58] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[05:58] Christina Wing: next morning when I came in, he left a note on my chair that said, I wanna teach you. What I don't know is how he got there from let's call it seven o'clock at night. I don't know if he went home and talked to somebody else that said, You're a bully.

[06:15] Kim Scott: Yeah, how he went from F U to I wanna teach you, that was a big in t in twelve hours he got there.

[06:21] Christina Wing: And I also don't know if I'll never know if ten other people had complained about him.

[06:27] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[06:27] Christina Wing: What I do know is he changed his behavior. And

[06:32] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

[06:34] Christina Wing: he rolled up his sleeves and ironically you know, he was an Harvard Business School alum. It's ironic 'cause I teach there now and went there, but he was so proud of that. And I

[06:46] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[06:46] Christina Wing: I remember I thought when I was going through this, I'm never freaking going to Harvard. They're assholes. Excuse my language.

[06:51] Kim Scott: Yeah, yes, yes.

[06:53] Christina Wing: But He changed his behavior and it didn't seem fake. He actually sat down, he worked with me, he taught me, he stopped calling me stupid. He'd still roll his eyes at me. And I think he was a little offended I didn't get up to speed faster. But as I got better, he got better. And I

[07:14] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[07:14] Christina Wing: noticed something that I didn't write in the book. I've always been aware of likability. He

[07:20] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[07:21] Christina Wing: wasn't very well liked in general.

[07:23] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

[07:24] Christina Wing: his likability went up with his peers of his like associate group. And it

[07:31] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[07:32] Christina Wing: sounds so traite, but I think that's part of managing up. And

[07:38] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[07:39] Christina Wing: the consequences of me being fired would have been really severe in that moment. But the consequences of me working there for two years with somebody that didn't want to work with me and didn't want to teach me would be more severe. Because I probably would have left thinking I could never understand finance. Instead, I got up to speed on finance. He was really good. It was like the worst mismatch. Proficient in finance, know nothing. And

[08:07] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[08:08] Christina Wing: he couldn't bridge it. Once he bridged it, he bridged it with others. I saw it the next year. He was like had a new mentor, he like was creating. Reading models and teaching, he found his way to work within the system. And so

[08:20] Kim Scott: Yes.

[08:21] Christina Wing: it's a happy ending. Do I want to hang out with him now? No. No, it's not like I'm writing him a love letter, but he did change. And

[08:25] Kim Scott: No, I mean I'm s I'm sure it's not like you love him now, but yeah. Yes.

[08:33] Christina Wing: I'm not saying I changed him. I'm saying maybe fear changed him of something else happening, a repercussion. But I got through to him. And

[08:43] Kim Scott: Yes, yes.

[08:44] Christina Wing: I think the key to this is I went to him first. I gave

[08:48] Kim Scott: Yes.

[08:49] Christina Wing: him an opportunity. I frankly thought he wouldn't do anything except for sabotage me. And instead he leaned in. And I was a 23-year-old hothead at the time. And when I saw his note, part of me was like, Forget this, I'm still doing it. But

[09:06] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.

[09:07] Christina Wing: I leaned in and I worked with him, and he taught me a lot.

[09:10] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.

[09:11] Christina Wing: And he taught me that I can learn from people that I don't have a lot in common with or

[09:17] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[09:18] Christina Wing: that I don't like it initially. But when I left I liked him.

[09:21] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. there's so many things that I love about this story. one of the many things I love about the story. we sort of tend to, as individuals and maybe as society, do this toggle between what in radical cannor I call obnoxious aggression and ruinous empathy. when I talk about ruinous empathy in the book Radical Candor, I often talk about telling people who aren't doing a good job, like there's the Bob story, the guy who was smoking pot and doing messy work and I didn't tell him and that was ruinous empathy. But I think one of the most dangerous forms of ruinous empathy right now is not confronting directly someone who's acting like a jerk. And it's hard to think of like what you did was radical candor. And you maybe weren't at the tippy top of care personally with this guy, but you were above the line. You were gonna give him the respect of telling him directly rather than going above his head, right? And you were gonna challenge him directly. So excellent radical candor for him.

[10:21] Christina Wing: Well, thank you. I think I thought he deserved that respect based on what he had done to get to the position he was in. And so I wanted to give it one more chance. And I I think the the thing that's interesting is we sometimes think these Are gonna sabotage us for life. And when I was writing the story, I was thinking, how bad could it have been if I'd been fired? It would have been awful in the moment.

[10:49] Kim Scott: Yes, yes.

[10:52] Christina Wing: But if my choice was to work with a a-hole or this, I might have been better off. And but at the time it felt huge.

[11:01] Kim Scott: It yes. Where did you get the courage? if you had been fired, what would have happened would you have had to leave New York and go back to Texas? Did you like not even have money for the airplane back to Te like where were you? Did you have some you know, some money to fall back on so that you would have been okay if you got fired? Like what like to to what extent does financial

[11:24] Christina Wing: Well yeah.

[11:26] Kim Scott: security play into This or not.

[11:29] Christina Wing: I think that I think that people that might Google me might think I had financial security because my father was successful. I had no financial security. I

[11:40] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[11:40] Christina Wing: was living, you know, month to month with two other roommates in a three-bedroom where we put up a wall. If I was fired, I would have owed a month, I mean a year of rent. I would have been humbled to my core because

[11:54] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[11:54] Christina Wing: nobody else from my school was in New York City. And

[11:57] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[11:58] Christina Wing: I don't know how I would Have gotten another job right away. So it was

[12:01] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[12:01] Christina Wing: a it was a big risk, but I I can't explain to you how sad I was for consecutive days thinking, am I stupid? Like

[12:13] Kim Scott: Yes.

[12:13] Christina Wing: I actually thought, am I like, why am I not getting this? And

[12:18] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[12:19] Christina Wing: as soon as he became better, I was like, I'm getting this fast. This is cool.

[12:24] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[12:27] Christina Wing: if we both hadn't met, and I often wonder if I'd been transferred to another group, if I ever would have thought I had such a good educational experience at this place, because they he he was so tough, but he taught me finance in a way nobody's learned it. None of my peers were learning it that way. He would

[12:47] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[12:47] Christina Wing: give me a printout of a model and tell me to build it. Everybody else is getting an Excel spreadsheet. But but it

[12:53] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. You had to build it from from yeah.

[12:55] Christina Wing: But he taught me. And once he invested in me, it it was great. so I

[13:01] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

[13:02] Christina Wing: I I you know, this was over 30 years ago now. I still remember his name vividly, and I can probably remember ten people's name at that firm. And so,

[13:14] Kim Scott: Yes.

[13:15] Christina Wing: you know, what my young 23-year-old self didn't realize in the banking situation is we actually had a common goal. And the common goal was a good work product.

[13:28] Kim Scott: Yes.

[13:29] Christina Wing: I thought he wanted to destroy me and he thought probably she's stupid, I'll get someone else. But if you actually step back and said, let's have a good work goal of Getting me up to speed so you can go do something bigger than watch me model. We couldn't move forward, but I I didn't know that yet. But

[13:45] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[13:48] Christina Wing: but in today's day, you know, these students are studying wars. Almost

[13:54] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[13:55] Christina Wing: every war has a religious component, yet we don't talk about religion.

[13:58] Kim Scott: Mm. Yeah.

[14:01] Christina Wing: You know, we're in this, cycle. We just had some Jewish holidays, we have a big Indian holiday coming up. We don't talk about it. And we don't talk about Why is Diwali really important to the Indian culture? Why, you know, I think if you ask most non-Jewish people in the United States what's the most important holiday to Jewish person, they'd say Hanukkah. That's not the most important. We don't take the time to ask and learn. And once you learn, you're like, My gosh, happy new year. That makes sense or whatever. But we just don't do it because we're like, that's religion. I can't ask that. All I know is it's Rosh Hashanah and they all go home. That's

[14:44] Kim Scott: Yes.

[14:44] Christina Wing: so wrong. And you know, I think in this culture of not talking about things, we've lost our curiosity. Because we've basically limited our conver safe conversations now are about food, Netflix, and sports teams. Basically that's it. And even the weather isn't

[15:04] Kim Scott: Even the weather is not safe to talk about anymore.

[15:08] Christina Wing: safe to talk about. And so how are we going to do things like in the United States go through midterm elections? What are we going to evaluate these candidates on? Food, Netflix, sports teams? No. We have to be able to talk and most importantly, we have to listen. And you know, I don't believe that difficult conversations should all be top-down.

[15:32] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[15:32] Christina Wing: and I don't believe that having them bottom up is easy, but I think they're sometimes the most effective. But what I will say is that we as a society have confused difficult moments with difficult conversations. Breaking up with a girlfriend, difficult moment. Firing somebody, difficult moment. We do not have a common goal. Sending your food.

[15:57] Kim Scott: But you do have a com even when you fire someone you have a common goal. You wanna treat that person with dignity and help them find their next job, right?

[16:04] Christina Wing: But that's that is a you don't have a common goal of how to work together going forward.

[16:11] Kim Scott: Yes.

[16:11] Christina Wing: You might have a common goal of empathy in that, but it's a difficult moment.

[16:15] Kim Scott: Yes.

[16:16] Christina Wing: It is not a difficult conversation where we have a common goal of a go forward. So like what

[16:22] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[16:23] Christina Wing: I'm trying to distinguish is some are the ending of something

[16:26] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[16:27] Christina Wing: and some are the go forward.

[16:29] Kim Scott: Yes.

[16:29] Christina Wing: And the ones that are go forward are the ones that should fit into your matrix because that empathy and love and everything is all part of something continuing. It's not ending.

[16:40] Kim Scott: Yes. Yes.

[16:41] Christina Wing: And you know, I think we we put them all in one bucket and we avoid them all.

[16:47] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah. And and then we'll never get intimacy. We'll never we'll never collaborate if we don't I mean, th you know, embrace the discomfort. We learn in discomfort. That is where we learn and grow.

[17:00] Christina Wing: You know, it's so interesting 'cause I had a speaker in today to my MBA classroom and he's very accomplished in business, but he was nervous before he was speaking

[17:09] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[17:11] Christina Wing: in front of my students. And I said, That's great, because you care. You care. Like

[17:15] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yes. Yes.

[17:19] Christina Wing: like caring about things like great be nervous

[17:23] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. And I think also being nervous, I think this is part of part of the problem with part of the reason why we avoid t taboo topics and maybe all topics, we just avoid talk today, But part of the reason why we why we avoid talking is that people want to get it right. And I think I I wish people could go into these conversations like being prepared to get it wrong. In fact, you're gonna get it wrong. If you go in thinking you're right, you're you're now now you've handicapped yourself. Now now you're not going to I think that's the wrong turn of phrase, but

[18:00] Christina Wing: No, it it's exactly the the right word. If you go into it thinking you want to win, then you're wrong. You're

[18:06] Kim Scott: Yes, you're yes.

[18:08] Christina Wing: going in looking for a win-win. And by the way, if the first conversation that you have about this feels like a win, you've already lost. Because the

[18:18] Kim Scott: Yes, yeah.

[18:19] Christina Wing: other person's disagreeing. I mean, these are not moments. These are continuation of conversations. It's unearthing something with a goal for changed behavior. That doesn't mean like a a coffee at Starbucks is gonna end with that. you know I

[18:36] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

[18:37] Christina Wing: mean like my husband and I argue about how to do the dishwasher forks up or forks down. And you

[18:43] Kim Scott: Right.

[18:44] Christina Wing: know these are in my house difficult moments and difficult conversations. You have to come to a common thing and then agree and then move forward. We both have the same goal. We want clean dishes. But sometimes

[18:57] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah, listen challenge.

[18:59] Christina Wing: you have to listen and be like, you know what? You're right. Even

[19:03] Kim Scott: Yeah. Or or I think you're wrong, but I'll do it your way 'cause I love you.

[19:07] Christina Wing: Exactly. And like enough. So I mean I think when you go into anything with a litigator's position, and this is why when I'm asked about the book, they're like, you put role playing in this. I'm like, don't over role play. Because when you

[19:21] Kim Scott: Yeah, don't script.

[19:22] Christina Wing: over role play, you get pre-pissed. You're like,

[19:25] Kim Scott: Yes.

[19:25] Christina Wing: I know what Kim's gonna say and I'm gonna say this and you you start to do that thing where you like are forming your sentence before they're done talking. You Role play for yourself so that you choose better words, but don't role play to assume you know all the answers on the other side because then you just fail. And

[19:45] Kim Scott: Yes.

[19:46] Christina Wing: I mean, let me tell you, I fail at this all the time. I'm trying to get better. Well, I think we all are. The circumstances that are presented to me are changing daily.

[19:59] Kim Scott: Yes.

[20:00] Christina Wing: And so we all have to engage in leaning in and realizing sometimes the best thing that you can do is change your mind. How powerful is that?

[20:09] Kim Scott: Yes. Yes. Or even if you don't change your mind, you understand even if and even if you disagree, you understand why the person thinks what they want. Like John Stuart Mills said that a belief that never gets challenged turns into a prejudice. So I can believe X, you can believe Y. We can have a very fruitful conversation, even if you don't change your mind, and I don't change my mind, because now I understand what I think and why I think what now I'm maybe I'm dug in even deeper, but I understand my own beliefs more deeply than I did before. Our disagreement. And that has

[20:49] Christina Wing: Yeah.

[20:50] Kim Scott: real value.

[20:51] Christina Wing: But you also understand the other perspective.

[20:53] Kim Scott: Yes.

[20:54] Christina Wing: And and you know, the person you're having this conversation with isn't the only person with that perspective. And

[21:00] Kim Scott: Correct.

[21:01] Christina Wing: so understanding that perspective, even if you didn't change your mind, you might change your approach a little bit or like start to understand how to incorporate the other. And you know, we're not running dictatorships as leaders. I mean

[21:17] Kim Scott: Now

[21:18] Christina Wing: leaders are people that others want to follow. And like for me, I want to follow leaders that admit they're wrong, that change their perspective sometimes, stick to their core values, but understand how their values are implemented can vary.

[21:38] Kim Scott: Yes. Yes. So let's go back to race, religion, and politics. There was during twenty tw the easy

[21:42] Christina Wing: The easy ones.

[21:44] Kim Scott: ones. During I think it was during it was twenty twenty, it was during the pandemic, and I remember somebody reached out to me, a black woman who was who was working on a number of initiatives at her law firm and sort of helping people understand this moment. And And she and I had this great conversation about how both of our fathers raised us in very different circumstances, very different fathers, to never talk about race, religion, or politics at work. And I think that that was bad. I love my father. she loves her father. Our dads gave us a lot of great advice, but I think that was really bad advice. I think that's that's part of how we've gotten to this moment where we can't talk to each other almost about anything. and so I think going into these conversations, being willing and interested in, I'm I'm gonna show you this unconditional respect for our shared humanity, even though we have all these differences. And we're gonna talk about these differences so that I know where your raw ner nerves are, you know where my raw nerves are. And maybe we can avoid those. And but we c if we can't talk about these things, then we don't even We we're not even aware when we're saying something that's incredibly offensive or upsetting to someone.

[23:07] Christina Wing: So learned saying that you're colorblind is incredibly offensive.

[23:15] Kim Scott: Yes.

[23:16] Christina Wing: And I learned that the the hard way in the sense that it was something I emulated from my father and others where you know, I'm colorblind. I like see everybody the same. And a very elegant black man in my thirties said, That is so offensive that you said that because I don't want you to be colorblind. I want you to understand we have different colors of skin, but then move forward. And I thought of this like so many times over the years, but about eight years ago we had a little bit of a a racial issue that happened on campus where a nasty email went around and a bunch of my students of color Wanted to come over to my house and talk about it. And my

[24:05] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[24:06] Christina Wing: first instinct was to call on a great friend of mine of color. And

[24:11] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[24:12] Christina Wing: then I thought to myself, What am I doing? They want to come see me. I

[24:16] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yes.

[24:18] Christina Wing: don't, I shouldn't bring in a person of color to address them. And that was when I was, so I learned this lesson at 30 about not saying colorblind. I learned at 42, like Okay, they're asking to come see me. Like why would I bring a person of color to my home thinking that would give comfort? And so

[24:36] Kim Scott: Yes, they want to talk to you.

[24:37] Christina Wing: they want to talk to me. What they really wanted is a safe space and they wanted me to listen. And

[24:43] Kim Scott: Yes.

[24:43] Christina Wing: my husband and I provided that and it was great. But I think I put my foot in it, you know, multiple times a year. not with bad intentions, but with new heightened emotion that is growing for all these categories because nobody talks about anything. And so then something that is said becomes attacked. And so as leaders or people in a position, you just retract. My view is I'm trying to talk about it more. I'm you know, if somebody has a issue or something going on, I'm like, explain that to me. What does it mean? Like,

[25:23] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

[25:24] Christina Wing: okay, so let let's go back to the the horrible thing we did with blacks. They're all African Americans. They're not African Americans.

[25:32] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[25:33] Christina Wing: They're black. Like, okay, what do you want to be called with all of the changes and how we refer to different sexual orientation? I might screw up. Tell me how not to. Teach me. And

[25:45] Kim Scott: Yes. Yes.

[25:47] Christina Wing: you know, I've never met anyone that has a difference that they want to explain or even not want to explain if you ask them a question, shies away from it.

[25:58] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. And and I think that both like your students and also this black man who educated you ab about the problem with colorblind, they were doing for you what you were doing for that boss who, and you were open to it

[26:10] Christina Wing: Absolutely. but that's learning. He easily

[26:14] Kim Scott: Yes.

[26:14] Christina Wing: could have looked at me and been like, her intention is good. And so we leave it. No.

[26:17] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

[26:21] Christina Wing: no, and so I think, you know, things like you do, Kim, with your books, I I think Radical Candor, the name, made people in some ways think, be mean. And and that's not what you meant.

[26:30] Kim Scott: Yes, unfortunately that's true.

[26:33] Christina Wing: What you meant was get in the arena and like show your love and your protection of an organization. At least that's how I read it.

[26:43] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah, you're lo yeah, your protection of your shared results, you know, your protection of the shared relationship. And it Yes, yes, we do. I could have called

[26:50] Christina Wing: But we gotta get away from it being mean and and

[26:55] Kim Scott: it compassionate candor, but

[26:57] Christina Wing: but I also read it from a perspective of never thinking it was mean. But I think

[27:01] Kim Scott: Yes.

[27:01] Christina Wing: some people like the fear I have with my book, and I say this frequently, is I don't want everybody jumping out of their car and having difficult conversations about everything. It's it's about

[27:12] Kim Scott: Yeah, for no good reason, yeah.

[27:15] Christina Wing: timing, it's about

[27:16] Kim Scott: Yes.

[27:17] Christina Wing: empathy, it's about awareness on both sides, and it's about this common goal that you're not going to give up. Because most

[27:24] Kim Scott: Yes.

[27:25] Christina Wing: people you initiate this conversation with are going to be like, no. And you have to stick with it. And so,

[27:29] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yes.

[27:32] Christina Wing: you know, I'm like, this is not like a license to talk about everything. And

[27:36] Kim Scott: Yes.

[27:37] Christina Wing: I get very nervous when my students go home for Thanksgiving because I'm building all this up and I'm like, okay, wait a minute.

[27:44] Kim Scott: You don't

[27:44] Christina Wing: Thurs Thursday of Thanksgiving, whether you celebrate it or not, is not the time. Nor

[27:49] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

[27:50] Christina Wing: is Sunday before you run to the plane. If you're

[27:53] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[27:53] Christina Wing: gonna have one of these conversations, you have to give advance notice, you have to this, and they're like, I'm getting in there. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

[28:01] Kim Scott: Yes, d yeah, we're not we're not trying to burn our way out of the jungle here. We're trying to build ta build real communication. I think

[28:08] Christina Wing: But I think we can get better.

[28:10] Kim Scott: yes, we h we must get better. think yes.

[28:12] Christina Wing: And listen, listen.

[28:15] Kim Scott: with radical canor it's about soliciting feedback before giving it and giving more praise than criticism. You know, that's another part of the message that tends to get lost.

[28:25] Christina Wing: I I love that because I think your book should have been adopted into HR evaluations in a way that was because right now in HR evaluations it's evaluate your manager, evaluate your team, evaluate yourself. I think there should be like the evaluation of the manager as it affects you as well.

[28:47] Kim Scott: Yes.

[28:47] Christina Wing: And like what is good that she or he does and the and how it could be I think that if we could get there, we could even bridge some of this.

[28:58] Kim Scott: I do think actually a lot of what happens in the workplace, a lot of what managers do is unfinished business from childhood and education. And

[29:10] Christina Wing: Absolutely.

[29:11] Kim Scott: and I think this the past ten years of social media and all you know, sort of now AI and Zoom school during the pandemic, I think that there's a whole generation of kids who have not learned to talk to each other and or who didn't build the same levels of skills that were built before. And and it's really not just kids. I mean the truth is I'm as addicted to my phone as my children are to their phone. We're we're all addicted. We're we're all equally guilty of being addicted to these things.

[29:49] Christina Wing: You you you know what's so interesting, Kim? I started teaching at HBS twelve years ago. And since I had a phone, I don't think I had g ever gone 80 minutes without looking at it. And that's the length of my class. So I can't look at my phone.

[30:05] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[30:06] Christina Wing: everywhere else, like board meetings, whatever, I'd always

[30:09] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[30:09] Christina Wing: glance. And what happened is my mother wrote me like three months into my first semester, did I do something to offend you? And that's because I wasn't getting back to her within minutes of her texting me. And I thought to myself, I have to change how people interact with me and how they think my behavior is gonna be. And it's been so freeing because

[30:35] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[30:37] Christina Wing: now I don't get any messages like that from anyone that that are saying, I wrote you 10 minutes ago or but I got those before. And so

[30:46] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[30:46] Christina Wing: I think one of the things is not only do we have to kind of change this culture of convenience and silence, we have to change the expectations of our loved ones that just because you don't write back and give a thumbs up doesn't mean you don't agree. You might be at a movie, you might be getting an MRI, you might be doing something. But

[31:09] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[31:09] Christina Wing: we instantly, as the sender, think something's wrong because we haven't gotten a response. And so

[31:13] Kim Scott: Yes. It's

[31:16] Christina Wing: We have to change. It's unbelievable.

[31:16] Kim Scott: this dopamine. Yes, I agree. I agree. You know, my first job at Google was basically managing an email. It wasn't a call center, it was an email center. And so there was, you know, there was an expectation of turnaround times. And and our expectation was twenty-four hours. Like like you should not be expected to have a Turnaround time in your personal life of anything faster than seventy two hours, in my opinion.

[31:45] Christina Wing: And and by the way, if we stick to a culture of turnaround time in an hour, you're getting a lot of false positives. Yes, I'd love

[31:52] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[31:52] Christina Wing: to go to that. And then in like two days, I'm like, I can't go to that. Like you you like, let's be

[31:55] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[31:58] Christina Wing: more conscious of how we communicate to each other, let's be more thoughtful of what we put out there. Listen, I'm all still for like I have three dogs, forward a dog picture, do whatever. But

[32:09] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[32:09] Christina Wing: anything that requires like an actual real answer, let the person you sent it to digest it on their side and give you a real answer.

[32:20] Kim Scott: Yes. The whole point of radical candor is to put your phone away, shut your comp computer, go look someone in the eye and have a real human conversation. And

[32:29] Christina Wing: So

[32:29] Kim Scott: that really, I mean, is what your book is about, I think, is having these real human conversations. About these difficult topics.

[32:36] Christina Wing: And and you know, with AI and all the other changes, and it's funny because I have y kids that are starting their careers and they're like, There's never been anything like this. And I'm like, Well, you know, your your parents graduated from business school and dot com started and

[32:53] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[32:54] Christina Wing: you know this happened in finance like we have to continue to understand the values and the characteristics that are gonna make us stand out. What I will die on the mat for is ability to converse with people and have emotional intelligence is what's gonna survive and thrive in this AI situation.

[33:18] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Yes.

[33:20] Christina Wing: And so the student or the worker that is really good at doing everything but can't look anyone in the eye, they might get misplaced. But the person that actually understands to take this great information AI can put together for them, explain it, execute it, understand how it's gonna work with humans, they're gonna win. just now's the time though to like reinvest

[33:44] Kim Scott: yes.

[33:46] Christina Wing: in human interaction.

[33:50] Kim Scott: Yes. So you have such good advice. Let's talk about money. so how do you help in particular family businesses? We're talking about money. You have this incredible anecdote. about this family business and nobody knew what the family net worth was. Like

[34:08] Christina Wing: It it Kim, that story was so crazy because in this family for your listeners, They had the fortitude to have a family meeting, to bring in outside advisors, and to talk about the strategy that the family was going to pursue. Would they stay in the industry they're in? Would they go into other industries? Would they do startup? Would they do something?

[34:28] Kim Scott: Where were they gonna invest? Yeah.

[34:30] Christina Wing: And when we started the meeting, I just had a feeling that people didn't have the same level of transparency. And I was like, everybody write down on the index card anonymously what you think the net worth was. And it ranged so big that I couldn't believe

[34:46] Kim Scott: Like ten X?

[34:48] Christina Wing: 10x that they would fly us across the pond to do this. I'm like, how are we gonna set strategy for anything when no one knows what's possible?

[34:59] Kim Scott: Yeah, so one person in the family thinks it's a billion dollar business and the other thinks it's a hundred million.

[35:04] Christina Wing: Or 25 million. And it's like, how are we even talking about some of these initiatives? And it led me to this like feeling that sometimes disclosing wealth fears, you know, people say I don't want my kids to know because they'll lack motivation. I'm like, screw that. You don't have to tell them they're getting the money, but

[35:26] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[35:27] Christina Wing: tell them what's there and what their responsibility is. So, you know, if you go join Apple and it's worth X billion dollars, doesn't mean you, Kim, are getting that money. But

[35:39] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[35:39] Christina Wing: you know what the company's net worth is, their sales, the possibility

[35:43] Kim Scott: Right.

[35:43] Christina Wing: to invest in RD. And so People have gotten so bizarrely shy about economics that children now, we have many families we work with that have children getting married, they don't know how to get a mortgage for their house, they don't understand house payments, they don't understand compounding, they don't understand the 18% on their credit cards.

[36:09] Kim Scott: Yes.

[36:10] Christina Wing: It is criminal that we don't

[36:11] Kim Scott: Yes.

[36:12] Christina Wing: talk about money more. We have to decouple. Not talking about money from a perspective of what are you getting from

[36:20] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[36:21] Christina Wing: basic education of money.

[36:23] Kim Scott: Yeah, financial literacy, yeah.

[36:25] Christina Wing: Financial literacy is like nowhere. And then on top of it, to double down, at least in some of the family businesses, everybody else knows, but you don't know. And so that's akin to like, you know, being an owner of a sports team and finding your star was traded bef you know in the press. Bad. Bad. Like, I'm an owner. Tell me before the press knows.

[36:48] Kim Scott: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

[36:54] Christina Wing: And so my perspective on money, and listen, I I have three kids and I could get better as well. Explain to them what there is. Explain to them how they can help with the responsibility and possibly access it, that doesn't mean explaining to them what they might get. If you're worried about that, who knows? Plus you can change your mind a hundred times. But if you you know, the best is when families are like, Well, I want everybody to work with me. Well, I don't want them to know what we have. And I'm like, Okay, great. So yeah,

[37:27] Kim Scott: That's not really fair.

[37:28] Christina Wing: your kid goes to a great college. How would you feel if they call you up and say, Dad, I got a job at McKinsey. Where are you gonna work? They won't tell me. What are you getting paid? They won't tell me. Okay, take it. Like, no. Like,

[37:44] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[37:45] Christina Wing: like there are basic things like you get paid for a job. So I'm a big believer in talking about money. I'm not a big believer in declaring inheritance early. I think that's silly.

[37:58] Kim Scott: Right. Yeah.

[37:59] Christina Wing: Talking about it. And if we think these kids aren't zillowing every house, every everything, they know more than we do.

[38:06] Kim Scott: yeah, they know way more than we did. And way less.

[38:10] Christina Wing: They know way more about how to access information, at least give them the transparency. It's my view.

[38:13] Kim Scott: right. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And I think also acknowledge I mean part of it is that our economy right now is just it's profoundly unfair.

[38:25] Christina Wing: I I'd say it in a slightly different way in that we don't want to acknowledge the power of money to

[38:34] Kim Scott: Yes.

[38:35] Christina Wing: access opportunity and other things. And that is a huge disservice. If we don't understand

[38:41] Kim Scott: Yes, to everybody.

[38:43] Christina Wing: causal effects, then we

[38:44] Kim Scott: Yes.

[38:45] Christina Wing: start to think that the people with this money actually might be smart in what they're saying, like the microphone they have.

[38:52] Kim Scott: Right, right, right.

[38:54] Christina Wing: We we have to acknowledge we believe in capitalism and we want people to make money. That doesn't mean that they should have a societal voice based on how much they have.

[39:04] Kim Scott: Yes,

[39:06] Christina Wing: People are good at certain things, but not everything. And we've assigned, I think, between social media and reality TV and all these things, we've assigned responsibility to wealthy people being really smart about everything. Absolutely not. absolutely not. And so that assigned responsibility has to go away. I think

[39:29] Kim Scott: Yes.

[39:29] Christina Wing: capitalism has to come back in as a good word, not a bad word. Capitalism has become a bad word. because we think of it as negative s social influence and

[39:40] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[39:41] Christina Wing: instead of creating value. And

[39:43] Kim Scott: Yes.

[39:43] Christina Wing: so, you know, we need all walks, but we need to talk about it.

[39:48] Kim Scott: Yes, yes. exactly. So, so profoundly agree. And I think that there's this feeling this false feeling that being silent about all these things is safer. And I think Audre Lord's your silence will not protect you. There's a real cost of not there it does I mean there's a risk of talking about these things, but there's also often

[40:11] Christina Wing: So like

[40:12] Kim Scott: a much bigger risk in not talking about them.

[40:15] Christina Wing: Yeah, silence is a decision and

[40:18] Kim Scott: Yes.

[40:18] Christina Wing: it's an endorsement of what's happening. And

[40:21] Kim Scott: Yes.

[40:21] Christina Wing: that's really hard for people to hear, because

[40:24] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[40:24] Christina Wing: I know sometimes people are silent about horrible things that happen to them and they would never want to feel like they're endorsing that behavior, but they are.

[40:35] Kim Scott: Mm.

[40:35] Christina Wing: And so it's it's very complicated and it's very personal. However, if you want a better society for you and those that come behind you, you have to talk about it. That

[40:49] Kim Scott: Yes.

[40:49] Christina Wing: does not mean it's going to be easy. I actually think none of it's easy. And the reward is because it's not easy.

[41:00] Kim Scott: Yes.

[41:01] Christina Wing: and so we have to strive for that. And you know, I I love when I meet a new group of people and I feel an instant connection and we like have some kind of like learning together. That's so rare because

[41:17] Kim Scott: Yes.

[41:18] Christina Wing: so infrequently am I gonna show my full self to a new group of people when I do. I get a reward from that said dinner. When

[41:30] Kim Scott: Yes.

[41:31] Christina Wing: I go in an obligatory way, I go home like I cannot believe I allocated two hours to that. I'm exhausted already.

[41:39] Kim Scott: Yes.

[41:40] Christina Wing: And so my my hope is for People to read Radical Candor, to read Amy Edmondson's book, many books around psych psychological safety, but to read unspeakable and realize if you want to grow out of the friend group that you might have inherited or kept, the work group that you inherited or kept, the religious group that you hang out with within your religion, and you want to have a broader perspective, you have to let other people know who you are, and

[42:13] Kim Scott: Yes.

[42:14] Christina Wing: you have to talk. about it. it's you know, I really mean it from the bottom of my heart and I wish the you know, 10-year-old me, the 15-year-old me, the 20-year-old me had realized that I would have made better friends by letting them know who I am. And

[42:33] Kim Scott: Yes.

[42:33] Christina Wing: being included doesn't mean being happy. Being included doesn't mean being fulfilled. And now I'm happy and fulfilled. And most people know who I am. By the way, I change my mind a lot because I don't

[42:47] Kim Scott: Yes.

[42:48] Christina Wing: know a t I don't know everything about every topic.

[42:51] Kim Scott: Right.

[42:52] Christina Wing: I love learning new things. but I have an opinion and it's based in love and hope. My opinion can be very wrong, but I'm willing to say I'm wrong and learn.

[43:09] Kim Scott: I love that. I think that's the perfect note to end on. I hope that everybody listening will read your book, Unspeakable, and then they'll go out and speak it. thank you so much, Christina. Thank you for writing the book. Thank you for inspiring people to get outside of their comfort zones and look each other in the eye and have real conversations about topics that are uncomfortable. It's in the discomfort that we build intimacy and we grow.

[43:38] Christina Wing: Thank you, Kim. So really loved this, and I think collaboration is the best force of change. So I hope we can collaborate, others can collaborate, your readers, like if they want to collaborate, listeners, let's go. Let's make a difference.

[43:53] Kim Scott: All right. Let's do it. Let's make it happen. Thank you so much.

[43:57] Christina Wing: Thank you.

Transcript lightly edited for readability. Full transcript available on request.