Manipulation vs. Persuasion: A Clear Distinction (with Jay Conger) 8 | 29

[00:00] Kim Scott: so what's the difference between manipulation and persuasion?

[00:04] Jay Conger: So very clear differences, but here's the catch. When a manipulative persuader is persuading you, Kim, she or he will always say, This is for you. I'm I'm doing something special. It's for your benefit. You'll later discover that actually it was for them. It's purely self-serving. So intent is the key difference. So on the manipulative side, it's self-serving intent. On the constructive or real side, it actually is designed to benefit beyond the persuader. There's some type of mutual benefit or benefit to the team or to the organization or to a client.

[00:43] Kim Scott: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Radical Sabbatical. I'm Kim Scott, talking to some of the authors of the books that have made a huge difference in my life. And with me today, I am thrilled to say, is Jay Conger. Dr. Conger is the Henry Kravis Chaired Professor of Leadership Studies at Claremont-Mkenna College. and he is an incredible author of the book, The Persuasive Leader. And He led big teams at a solar company for a long time. So he also has walked the talk as an operating executive. So welcome, Jay.

[01:24] Jay Conger: Thank you, Kim. Looking forward to our conversation about persuasion.

[01:29] Kim Scott: As am I. So I have taught a number of technical leaders about persuasion. And they're always very skeptical of persuasion. So why are people skeptical about persuasion? And is this a new problem?

[01:47] Jay Conger: It's actually a very, very ancient problem. As a matter of fact, Plato, who was actually very good at persuasion,

[01:55] Kim Scott: Mm.

[01:57] Jay Conger: argued that this group of kind of what we'll call early persuasion teachers, they were right,

[02:03] Kim Scott: Mm. The the r the rhetor rhetoric, right? The

[02:06] Jay Conger: exactly. And these people would travel around and they would teach the children of the elite how to argue.

[02:12] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[02:14] Jay Conger: And one of their tactics was to teach you to be able to argue both sides of an issue.

[02:19] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[02:19] Jay Conger: And so Plato felt that that was, you know, pretty manipulative because if you could take both sides and persuade both sides, then you didn't have a moral compass. There was no north. You were able to go south, east, and west.

[02:29] Kim Scott: Right. Right. Right. Right.

[02:34] Jay Conger: and then what we come to today when I often ask audiences, particularly managers and executives, What occupations quickly come to your mind when I use the word persuasion? Within a millisecond, use car salesman. Boom.

[02:50] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[02:51] Jay Conger: So you you've got the kind of slick checkered shirt,

[02:54] Kim Scott: Right. Right.

[02:56] Jay Conger: short hat kind of character who's trying to sell you a lemon, describing

[03:01] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[03:02] Jay Conger: it as a one-of-a-kind opportunity that is fleeting.

[03:05] Kim Scott: Right.

[03:06] Jay Conger: the other Category, not so surprisingly, that people put their hand up is politics or politicians.

[03:12] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[03:14] Jay Conger: where they're trying to sell you, you know, I I'm gonna promise you something and you know, I may or may not deliver it, but this is what I'm promising you. So

[03:21] Kim Scott: Yes.

[03:22] Jay Conger: it has a public relations problem, and that's

[03:26] Kim Scott: Very ironic, isn't it?

[03:29] Jay Conger: It is, you know, and I talk about this in the book. When you look at your day, Kim, literally every meeting you're in at work, someone is trying to persuade somebody. Or

[03:40] Kim Scott: Uh-huh.

[03:41] Jay Conger: or a whole group is trying to persuade one person, or you have something you want to persuade the group of. And then of course, when you go home, there are these little mini moments where I'd say, Hey, Kim, let's have sushi tonight. And

[03:54] Kim Scott: No, let's have a burger.

[03:56] Jay Conger: So it often collapses into negotiations instead of persuasion. But

[03:59] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[04:01] Jay Conger: much of our day is spent in this activity. By the way, we we sanitize it, we don't call persuasion. We call it sharing a point of view or having a perspective. But when you

[04:07] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[04:12] Jay Conger: strip away the language, you realize it is persuasion. It's having a point of view, you want to people bring people to that point of view.

[04:19] Kim Scott: Right.

[04:20] Jay Conger: So it has it definitely has had a long standing PR dilemma.

[04:24] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[04:25] Jay Conger: And that that's led people not to see the more positive or what I call real persuasion side, and it's also led people to undervalue it as a skill.

[04:36] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Yeah, to be skeptal. I I think a lot of people think of it as manipulation, not persuasion. And and

[04:42] Jay Conger: That's right.

[04:42] Kim Scott: so what's the difference between manipulation and persuasion?

[04:47] Jay Conger: So very clear differences, but here's the catch. When a manipulative persuader is persuading you, Kim, she or he will always say, This is for you. I'm I'm doing something special. It's for your benefit. As a matter

[05:00] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[05:01] Jay Conger: of fact, the more they emphasize that, you probably know you're with a manipulative persuader.

[05:04] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah, you better you better put your hands on your pockets.

[05:09] Jay Conger: When you later agree and maybe

[05:12] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[05:12] Jay Conger: sign a check or commit to something. You'll later discover that actually it was for them. It's purely self-serving. So intent is the key difference. So on the manipulative side, it's self-serving intent. On the constructive or real side, it actually is designed to benefit beyond the persuader. There's some type of mutual benefit or benefit to the team or to the organization or to a client.

[05:36] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[05:36] Jay Conger: The tools or tactics over on the manipulative side include kind of classic ones like lies.

[05:44] Kim Scott: Right.

[05:44] Jay Conger: You know, falsehoods. leaving out critical information that if you

[05:49] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[05:50] Jay Conger: knew about it, Kim you'd say, No way, I I'm gonna that's

[05:51] Kim Scott: Yeah. Lies Bo Mission. Yeah.

[05:54] Jay Conger: right. A false sense of urgency, sometimes

[05:56] Kim Scott: Mm.

[05:57] Jay Conger: a sense of false scarcity. So at

[05:59] Kim Scott: Mm.

[06:00] Jay Conger: a used car lot, the salesman might say, This is a one of a kind, I've never seen this before. I

[06:05] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

[06:06] Jay Conger: just had a young couple, they just went to see if they get their parents to underwrite the car. I see you in this car, not them.

[06:13] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[06:14] Jay Conger: And by the way, we've only got ten minutes, so you please hurry.

[06:16] Kim Scott: Yeah. You better yeah, yeah.

[06:19] Jay Conger: So those are the tactics on the manipulative side. We'll talk more throughout our conversation about the constructive side, but they're very different and it really requires a different mindset to do the constructive or real side.

[06:33] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. And you use an ancient framework to help people stay on the right side. and part of the reason I love the book is that when I taught communicating at fill in the blank big tech company, I used Aristotle's framework too. so describe the framework and I'll tell you why I used it if you'll tell me why you used it.

[06:53] Jay Conger: I'd be delighted. So as you know, it's the oldest kind of recorded framework for thinking about persuasion. And

[07:01] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[07:02] Jay Conger: if we put Aristotle in the context of of ancient Greece, where you had a republic,

[07:06] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[07:08] Jay Conger: and you would have these decision makers who are, you know, I think roughly two thousand people would come together and they would have to debate what the decisions were. Do we go to war with this group? Do we build another temple to Ath to

[07:21] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[07:22] Jay Conger: Athena? so any big decision required conversation and debate. And Aristotle

[07:27] Kim Scott: Mm.

[07:28] Jay Conger: also was in many ways, today we'd call him a quasi-attorney. So he

[07:33] Kim Scott: Uh-huh.

[07:34] Jay Conger: would take on court cases like Cicero. And so

[07:36] Kim Scott: Right.

[07:37] Jay Conger: in addition to the forum where decisions were made, these individuals were also teaching clients how to argue a case, or they're arguing a case in a quote judicial kind of it's very different from today's kind of setting.

[07:51] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[07:52] Jay Conger: So Aristotle said there were three fundamental dimensions you have to be aware of. The first one was athos.

[08:00] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[08:01] Jay Conger: And athos was whether we could today translate that, are you kind of an ethical, are you ethical person?

[08:08] Kim Scott: Yeah. Or credibility is how I translated it for whatever reason.

[08:12] Jay Conger: Yeah. And it and it relates very specifically to the persuader. So

[08:17] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[08:17] Jay Conger: we may talk later about the fact that credibility comes in multiple forms, but he

[08:21] Kim Scott: Yes.

[08:21] Jay Conger: felt you had to be credible, you you had to be trustworthy to be an effective persuader.

[08:26] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[08:29] Jay Conger: then he talked about logos, which is your ability to organize l arguments. Today we call that the logic of your

[08:35] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Right.

[08:37] Jay Conger: arguments. and did you not only Have the right arguments, but did you order them in the right way? And then the final thing was pathos emotions, which related to connecting persuasion to emotions that would mo mobilize people and mobilize

[08:55] Kim Scott: Right. Not your emotions, their emotions.

[08:58] Jay Conger: their emotions. And of those, Logos has survived, and I would I would

[09:05] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah. Most people stop at at the logic.

[09:10] Jay Conger: Yes. And if you think about PowerPoint, PowerPoint in some ways is the perfect medium for logos, because you could

[09:17] Kim Scott: Mm.

[09:18] Jay Conger: take everything and organize it by bullet points in a

[09:20] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[09:21] Jay Conger: very quote logical manner, and you could

[09:23] Kim Scott: Mm.

[09:23] Jay Conger: present your arguments as little strips of words after a bullet point.

[09:27] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[09:28] Jay Conger: And so it's not surprising that PowerPoint and logos are almost synonymous in my mind.

[09:35] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[09:36] Jay Conger: Athos really depends on the context. But we'll talk more about the importance of credibility and getting a hearing.

[09:43] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[09:46] Jay Conger: But in those days Aristotle was quite concerned about the kind of compass, moral compass of people persuading. and today we've kind of diluted that a bit. And

[09:59] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[10:00] Jay Conger: pathos is so important, but it's interesting, we don't talk enough about it today.

[10:05] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally agree. so so

[10:10] Jay Conger: now, how did you get into utilizing Aristotle's and

[10:16] Kim Scott: just sort of struggling. I wanted to talk about telling stories and hook that into emotion. I was trying I was struggling to get these engineers away from logic. And and also they were very much afraid to establish or reluctant, afraid is the wrong word. Reluctant to it felt arrogant to them to establish their credibility, but they needed to explain why they were the right people to make the decisions that they were that they were entrusted with making. And I had never heard of the framework, but I was working with someone who was more of a philosopher than I am. And he said, You gotta go read this. I'm like, this is not you know, it was like a huge relief. People have been thinking about this for a long time. I can just use this other framework

[11:01] Jay Conger: Yeah.

[11:01] Kim Scott: that has stood the trust of time. so so I love a good framework, especially one that's been pounded on for few thousand years. Yeah, at least. Yeah, yeah.

[11:10] Jay Conger: two thousand years. Yeah. And then it was really honed by people who followed like Cicero

[11:17] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.

[11:19] Jay Conger: and all the rhetoricians.

[11:21] Kim Scott: And part of the class that I taught focused on what you have to do before you should be in persuade mode. Like it's very important to get into and it was interesting because I I talked a lot about you wanna listen to the other people and know who you're talking to, you wanna clarify your own thinking, you wanna have these debates, then you wanna decide what you think. And then it's time to persuade. And and I think again, like you you you made this point that that you don't determine your credibility, your audience does. And so you better know your audience before you go into persuade mode. a and you told this great story about Cornerstone Capital. So maybe share that story with with folks, 'cause it was it was yes,

[12:09] Jay Conger: And Michael?

[12:13] Kim Scott: Michael Michael's train wreck and how he got back on track.

[12:17] Jay Conger: So there was a big scandal which occurred in the first decade of the 21st century related to insider trading.

[12:25] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[12:28] Jay Conger: And Michael is an attorney for it's a fairly sizable investment firm.

[12:34] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[12:36] Jay Conger: cornerstone and He and his boss, who is the chief attorney for the firm, said, you know, this is so serious, we we can't set ourselves up for liabilities. And so I think what we're gonna have to do is ask all the investors not to rely on at l a minimum external experts,

[12:55] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[12:56] Jay Conger: because it could lead to some kind of gray zone and we could get in trouble. So Michael sat down after this mandate from the boss and he kind of

[13:05] Kim Scott: Mm.

[13:05] Jay Conger: worked through his Persuasion, what he was going to argue

[13:08] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[13:09] Jay Conger: as to why all these investors had to stop using experts to further kind of firm up that this is a good investment. So he walks into the Tuesday morning meeting, which is a room full of just investors,

[13:22] Kim Scott: Right.

[13:23] Jay Conger: and it's announced that it later in the meeting Michael's gonna have something to share with the group. So his moment finally comes and he walks them through what's happening in the external world, all the investigations by the Attorney General's office, who's getting in trouble, and what the implications will be for Cornerstone. At which point he says, and this leads us to conclusion we cannot use the following forms of experts. So he then encounters one question after the other. It's a barrage. And of course, He has not interviewed a single investor.

[13:57] Kim Scott: He right. Right. He doesn't understand how they work or the implications of what he's trying to persuade them of. He doesn't even really know what he's trying to persuade them of.

[14:05] Jay Conger: and it's it's right, Kim, and it's it's really wonderful because I I know Michael well, and today he's a very sophisticated persuader. But as he sits with me, he said, Jay, I did I had no idea the types of questions that were coming at me. And he stumbles, he stumbles over and over

[14:24] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[14:24] Jay Conger: and over again. And finally the most kind of revered investor asks him pointedly, Does this mean we cannot do X, Y, and Z anymore? And he's like I don't know. So

[14:38] Kim Scott: Well, that was probably the best moment in the meeting. Like for him to admit that is when he probably began to get back on track.

[14:46] Jay Conger: Yeah, certainly in terms of his journey to becoming a good persuader. But

[14:50] Kim Scott: Yes, yes.

[14:51] Jay Conger: he he as he said to me, he said, you know, I kind of thought my career was over. I had ended it in that moment. And he went back and he really invested in interviewing the in the investors. And he as he said to me, see, you know, I started to realize how complicated this issue was and how naive I was. And What I love about his story is the fact that oftentimes you're a deep expert, but you're persuading people who are not. And

[15:19] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[15:22] Jay Conger: you have to be able to understand the world from their point of view. You have to

[15:26] Kim Scott: Yes.

[15:26] Jay Conger: know who they are. And then the other thing about persuasion is it often occurs in these brief moments of high visibility.

[15:35] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[15:37] Jay Conger: And two things can happen. One, you can lose the opportunity.

[15:43] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[15:43] Jay Conger: And it may be hard to get it back again. And two, you can lose your credibility in that moment. So

[15:48] Kim Scott: Yes.

[15:49] Jay Conger: you lose the idea and your credibility. And both can be difficult to retrieve and and rebuild.

[15:55] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. And you talk about I think you called it the curse of knowledge. Like sometimes

[15:59] Jay Conger: Yeah.

[16:00] Kim Scott: if you don't understand what other people know and don't know, then you give them the r you know, you give them the wrong information. You or you give them too much or too little information. And w you know, the one of the worst examples, most difficult to read about examples, this was part of the the class that I teach. Is the Challenger Launch decision. You know, so so the engineer, Roger Boisjoly who worked on the O-ring, which is the part that failed, went home the night before the launch and told his wife, we decided to kill seven astronauts today. And then in all of the aftermath, He was interviewed and he said, Anyone with a modicum of common sense knows that rubber doesn't work worth a damn at freezing temperatures. and what he had done is he had barraged them with so much data that they got lost in the data. He wasn't able to distill his message. Like if he had said that, they probably wouldn't have launched. Which is so painful. So y yeah, yeah.

[17:08] Jay Conger: Yeah, particularly carrying that weight throughout your life. That you couldn't persuade these decision makers about

[17:15] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[17:15] Jay Conger: the life of these astronauts.

[17:18] Kim Scott: Yeah. He he thought they were so focused on launching the next day that they didn't care. that's why it's important to get to know the people who you're talking to before you before you start trying to establish your credibility, I think.

[17:33] Jay Conger: One of my f I think one of my most effective kind of change agents was an individual who in in the sense of being master of persuasion. He

[17:42] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[17:42] Jay Conger: said to me, he said, Jay, look, you know, how I think of persuasion, it's ninety percent listening and ten percent

[17:47] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[17:48] Jay Conger: talking.

[17:49] Kim Scott: Yes.

[17:49] Jay Conger: And I c I s I said, you no, no, no, you gotta be kidding me. That's a lot of listening. You can't be

[17:55] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[17:56] Jay Conger: you can't be right. So I said, Do you mind if I shadow you for a couple days? And he said,

[18:01] Kim Scott: Uh-huh.

[18:01] Jay Conger: Not a problem. And by the way, he wasn't very senior. So he didn't he didn't carry a lot of authority. But what

[18:05] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[18:08] Jay Conger: I watched him do is he would come into your office and he'd begin by saying, Kim, I'm thinking about this problem. Is this a problem from your perspective?

[18:14] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[18:17] Jay Conger: So he was Testing whether you perceived a problem and what was your take on that problem and whether there

[18:24] Kim Scott: Yes.

[18:25] Jay Conger: was any urgency to solve it. And I sort of realize that the best persuaders really start with a problem. They don't start with their solution. And one of

[18:32] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yes.

[18:34] Jay Conger: the dilemmas of being an expert is you are solution-centric because you

[18:38] Kim Scott: Yes.

[18:39] Jay Conger: believe everybody's looking for a solution and you're going to be the one to give it to them. But the minute you move into a solution, you get pride of ownership.

[18:48] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[18:50] Jay Conger: And it becomes very difficult to flex.

[18:53] Kim Scott: Yes.

[18:53] Jay Conger: And I've said the you know, my definition of persuasion is holding a strong point of view loosely held. It's a paradox. Yes.

[19:01] Kim Scott: Yes, yes, yes. Paul Sappho's, Paul Sappho's. Strong opinions loosely held. So important.

[19:09] Jay Conger: Yeah.

[19:10] Kim Scott: yeah. and that's why you need to decide. I mean, 'cause 'cause if you don't have a strong opinion, then then i it's hard to demonstrate your ethos. Like you're you're blowing in the wind. But

[19:20] Jay Conger: Yeah, it's right. Yes.

[19:22] Kim Scott: if you're if you're if you don't hold it loosely, then you're not listening well enough.

[19:28] Jay Conger: And they're look that's exactly and they're looking to see, will you incorporate my view or my ideas in your solution? Yeah. And that's

[19:33] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. You

[19:37] Jay Conger: why it's a it's really at its heart of dialogue.

[19:40] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[19:41] Jay Conger: our stereotype is a pitch or or elegant

[19:43] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[19:44] Jay Conger: monologue. and that's largely thanks to TEDx and watching

[19:49] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[19:50] Jay Conger: famous people's speeches. but those are really the rarity. And a lot of work has usually gone into that TEDx talk.

[19:58] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah. S yeah, you've

[19:58] Jay Conger: behind the scenes. So it's not it's not

[20:01] Kim Scott: mapped the territory. You put it very well. You say you gotta map the t territory before you march. That's I love that. what's another good example of someone who who mapped the territory and and and understood people so they were able to establish credibility when they went in.

[20:21] Jay Conger: Well, one of my favorite stories in the book is about Julie Morath, who

[20:24] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[20:25] Jay Conger: became the chief operating officer of a children's hospital in

[20:29] Kim Scott: Mm.

[20:30] Jay Conger: Minnesota. And I interviewed Julia a number of times, and there was a Harvard Business School case study written about her. Shh.

[20:37] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[20:38] Jay Conger: And her passion in life is patient safety.

[20:41] Kim Scott: Mm.

[20:42] Jay Conger: and she was part of a multi-year study at the Harvard Medical School, looking at the fact that Despite metrics and systems in hospitals,

[20:52] Kim Scott: Mm.

[20:52] Jay Conger: there are a lot of errors that occur

[20:55] Kim Scott: Yes.

[20:55] Jay Conger: that are not caught. And when she arrives at children's hospital, she does tell the CEO that I'm happy to be the COO, but I tell you my mission's gonna be patient safety.

[21:06] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[21:07] Jay Conger: And as Julie said to me, she said, Look, Jay, you go to a children's hospital and you tell the nurses, the doctors, the pharmacists that they don't deliver the safest care, they are going to laugh you out of the building because they'll tell you, we're dealing with children. And so you

[21:23] Kim Scott: Mm. Mm.

[21:25] Jay Conger: bet we are always focused on safety.

[21:28] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[21:28] Jay Conger: So one of the worst things she could have done is to bring in these Harvard studies, which a little bit later she does, but she said, you know, I I didn't want them to see that they were falling short. I didn't I didn't

[21:39] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[21:40] Jay Conger: want to to challenge their concerns for safety. What I realized is I had to frame it as taking those concerns and making our system go to an even new world class level.

[21:55] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[21:55] Jay Conger: So I was trying to help them understand we can evolve to be the safest hospital in the world. We could have zero errors. But what she did is she did these small focus groups over about a year

[22:08] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[22:09] Jay Conger: in which she would sit down, confidential focus groups, doctors and

[22:12] Kim Scott: Mm.

[22:12] Jay Conger: nurses, and she would say, What do you think? Have we delivered the safest possible care this week or last month? And have you had any near misses? And as she said,

[22:24] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[22:25] Jay Conger: you know, at first if you it took a little while for people to say, well, we did have a near miss. And she'd say, Walk.

[22:30] Kim Scott: Yes. She really had to earn their trust.

[22:33] Jay Conger: That's it, credibility.

[22:35] Kim Scott: Mm.

[22:37] Jay Conger: and what she would do is she'd take that, she'd say, okay, walk us through all the different factors that

[22:43] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[22:43] Jay Conger: might have led to this. And what she was doing was helping them understand that most medical errors are systemic errors.

[22:51] Kim Scott: Yeah, it's part it's the problem is not the individual,

[22:51] Jay Conger: They're not a single person.

[22:53] Kim Scott: it's the system.

[22:54] Jay Conger: Yeah. And then she built this coalition of very senior people, but she had the nurse, the head of the nursing union. She

[23:03] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[23:04] Jay Conger: had a lot of admired people on the coalition. And then

[23:06] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[23:07] Jay Conger: when you look at how she generated ideas, almost all of them came from the nurses and doctors on the ground. So they they owned their initiatives. And when

[23:16] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[23:17] Jay Conger: an initiative took off and proved to be very successful. She would have them share that and then it would be adopted by other units in in the hospital.

[23:26] Kim Scott: Yeah. So that's part of what you mean when you talk about borrowed credibility. You're you're you're not taking credit, you know, you're

[23:33] Jay Conger: That's right.

[23:33] Kim Scott: you're giving credit. You're you're

[23:37] Jay Conger: And one of the fastest ways to do that, and John Cotter at Harvard talked about this in his leading change books that he wrote,

[23:45] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[23:45] Jay Conger: is you have to have a guiding coalition because they extend your credibility or they boost your credibility, particularly in Julie's case, because she's an outsider. So she not only has little to no credibility, but often we see outsiders as coming to fix us. And

[24:01] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Yes.

[24:03] Jay Conger: what's wrong with us? So you

[24:05] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.

[24:06] Jay Conger: automatically get a lot of pushback. So outsiders particularly need a coalition of highly admired insiders to boost their credibility.

[24:14] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. So so you're not saying I'm so great, but you're saying you're so great. And that's yes.

[24:20] Jay Conger: That's it.

[24:21] Kim Scott: So I I want to get some advice 'cause I think from you, because I think I I kind of messed this up when I was publishing Radical Candor. one of the things I was most nervous about when I was publishing the book is why would anybody listen to me, you know, like this. director at Google. And I'd done three failed startups. why would you listen to me? And so I told a lot of stories about other leaders that everybody admired. so I told a lot of Steve Jobs stories, a lot of Larry Page stories, a lot of Sergey Brynn stories, et cetera, et cetera. And then one of the most common if you look at Amazon at all the one star reviews, they say, what a name dropper, how do you establish credibility without seeming arrogant? Is that that's

[25:13] Jay Conger: Yeah.

[25:13] Kim Scott: I guess my question.

[25:16] Jay Conger: So I there are a couple of ways. if it's live and in person, people are listening to your voice tone.

[25:25] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[25:27] Jay Conger: So the more you assert yourself.

[25:28] Kim Scott: That's the other thing people hate about is I have a very high voice.

[25:35] Jay Conger: But it gets c attention.

[25:37] Kim Scott: Yes.

[25:38] Jay Conger: So if y if you bring a lot of quote heavy authority

[25:42] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[25:43] Jay Conger: and you bring a hint of condescend condescension into

[25:46] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[25:47] Jay Conger: a conversation, well you've already set yourself up to be seen as mm, that's quite an egotistical character here.

[25:53] Kim Scott: Yes. Yes.

[25:55] Jay Conger: Name dropping, I've always said if you do drop names, you should only drop one to two a at a given time.

[26:02] Kim Scott: Yes.

[26:02] Jay Conger: The more you drop four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, we start to say, my gosh. Yeah.

[26:05] Kim Scott: The more obnoxious it gets. Yeah.

[26:08] Jay Conger: So I I worked with a colleague who I won't mention because he he was quite famous in my world in the leadership field. And he loved you know, he'd say, Well, I just I had lunch with Howard Schultz at Starbucks the other day and I, you know, Bill Clinton and I were invited on a boat trip.

[26:19] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. And he probably didn't think he was name dropping, he was just describing his day, you know.

[26:26] Jay Conger: No. Yeah. But but I think a lot of people felt, my gosh, what an arrogant character.

[26:32] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[26:35] Jay Conger: so I think again, voice tone, not dropping too many names, And again, coming at really as a conversation, I think, is very important. The more

[26:45] Kim Scott: Mhm. Yeah, listening listening actually and giving other people the credit for what you're saying is probably the

[26:51] Jay Conger: Yeah.

[26:51] Kim Scott: you know, the the best way to flip it. and also probably moving on to the next step, which is sharing your logic. That is that is that is a good way to establish your credibility. But you say something that is very important in the book. the question is what logic is compelling to the other person, not what logic is

[27:14] Jay Conger: Mm-hmm.

[27:14] Kim Scott: comelling to you. So t so talk a little bit about that. Help people figure out how to do that.

[27:20] Jay Conger: Okay. So I'm gonna I'll share a s story with a young man called Dylan, and it'll

[27:25] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[27:26] Jay Conger: introduce two ideas. One, this idea of getting the right argument, but also introduce the idea of what we call framing. How do you frame why I'm here and why I'm persuading

[27:34] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[27:34] Jay Conger: you? So Dylan was the captain of the soccer team

[27:39] Kim Scott: Mm.

[27:40] Jay Conger: at a college in You know, my college actually. And

[27:44] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[27:44] Jay Conger: he came to me, he was in my course on leadership and persuasion, and he

[27:48] Kim Scott: Okay.

[27:49] Jay Conger: was also my research assistant. And he came to me one day and he said, Hey Professor Conger, I really need your help. As you know, I'm the captain of the soccer team, and

[27:58] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[27:58] Jay Conger: we have a chance this this year to win the championship for our division. And the man who's been maintaining our soccer field for

[28:07] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[28:08] Jay Conger: more than a decade has retired. And they haven't brought on a new maintenance company. And so they just have the college's kind of maintenance people gently maintaining the field. And he said there are holes in the field, the grass has been torn. I saw the archery team on there the other day shooting arrows, putting holes

[28:32] Kim Scott: no.

[28:32] Jay Conger: all over. And here's my problem. The coaches and I have gone

[28:38] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[28:38] Jay Conger: to the key administrator. And we've tried to persuade her to get a maintenance contract. And we

[28:45] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[28:46] Jay Conger: tell her that we could win the championship if that

[28:49] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[28:49] Jay Conger: field is restored to pristine levels. And she always says to us, I'm going to look into it, I'll be back in touch.

[28:58] Kim Scott: And nothing happens. Right.

[28:59] Jay Conger: Nothing happens. So this this goes on for a few weeks. So I said, okay, well, I have one question that you need to answer, and then I can help you. I want you

[29:07] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[29:08] Jay Conger: to go and I want you to find out what her background is. I want you to

[29:11] Kim Scott: Okay.

[29:11] Jay Conger: find out kind of what her specialty is. So two days later, Dylan comes back and says, Hey Professor Conger, her specialty is is risk management, risk mitigation. I said, Okay, Dylan.

[29:24] Kim Scott: I hear some twisted ankles.

[29:27] Jay Conger: I said, no wonder your arguments aren't working. Being the championship, you know, be might be nice, but her main concern is liabilities and lawsuits.

[29:35] Kim Scott: Yes.

[29:36] Jay Conger: I said, okay, so if you were concerned about liabilities, how would you frame this? And what

[29:41] Kim Scott: Mm.

[29:42] Jay Conger: kind of evidence would you use in arguments? And he he took a moment, he's a really sharp young man, and he said, I I would frame it around the fact that the the college could be sued potentially. For injuries, serious injuries of the athletes. And I said,

[29:56] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[29:59] Jay Conger: okay, now what kind of evidence could you muster to prove that? He said, Well, I've got at least four of my colleagues who have torn various ligaments. One guy tore

[30:08] Kim Scott: Wow.

[30:09] Jay Conger: his ACL and he's out. He he won't be playing anymore. I said, Great. how could you present that evidence? He said, Well, I could take photographs of their injuries and I could bring them as a portfolio.

[30:22] Kim Scott: I I

[30:23] Jay Conger: I said, Dylan, you're good to go. I said,

[30:25] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[30:26] Jay Conger: okay. So he is assembles his frame, which is the

[30:29] Kim Scott: huh.

[30:29] Jay Conger: field has become a risk for the for the campus, a liability.

[30:32] Kim Scott: For the players, right.

[30:34] Jay Conger: And he puts together a very nice kind of scrapbook of photographs of the field and the injured students. And then he goes and meets with the administrator.

[30:44] Kim Scott: Mm.

[30:46] Jay Conger: as I recall, he said to me, I think about ten or fifteen minutes in, she goes, my gosh, I had no idea of what was happening. And

[30:56] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[30:56] Jay Conger: she says, I am going to make certain we do something about that. By, I think it was that Friday, they'd hired a whole a maintenance company just to focus on restoring the field. And

[31:07] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[31:08] Jay Conger: within a week or two the field was brought back. And it's a really wonderful example of getting the right frame and then the right

[31:16] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[31:17] Jay Conger: arguments and evidence. And in this case the evidence becomes vivid. She's able to see with a name. He would say, you know, this is my colleague Stefan. And

[31:27] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[31:28] Jay Conger: here's the injury. And by the way, he's out for the rest of the semester. And by

[31:32] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[31:32] Jay Conger: the way, he was one of our strongest players.

[31:35] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[31:36] Jay Conger: and so you have to have you have to do something. And that story also illustrates the need to build urgency. So as you learn, that's right.

[31:43] Kim Scott: Mm. But not false urgency like the used car salesman, but real urgency.

[31:50] Jay Conger: So when you think about it, in your experience at Google, you were often competing against the status quo,

[31:56] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[31:57] Jay Conger: which is don't why do anything? You know, we're fine. And so you have to build this sense that this is an important issue, it needs to be addressed, and we need to address it pretty quickly. If

[32:06] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[32:07] Jay Conger: and we don't want to put it off to next year or the year after.

[32:09] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it's that that story leads into emotion, right? because the other thing about those photos is that it they weren't merely data, you know, and the story. He told a story about a player who's a good player and and his soccer career, his college soccer career has been dramatically hurt, cut short by this bad field. So Talk talk a little bit about emotion and why you need to sort of manage your own emotion and hook into someone else's emotion when we talk about emotion.

[32:47] Jay Conger: It's very important and again we go back to Aristotle and he and his notion of pathos.

[32:53] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[32:53] Jay Conger: So I like to say it logic informs, emotions motivate.

[33:00] Kim Scott: Uh-huh.

[33:01] Jay Conger: So you're sitting listening to a persuader, and you go, Yes, I agree with that, that makes sense, I agree with that, but that doesn't lead you to action. And so

[33:07] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[33:10] Jay Conger: it's the emotional content that actually energizes you and say, I will not only support that, but I'll help you make it a reality.

[33:16] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[33:18] Jay Conger: So the question is, well, how do I use emotions in a way that I'm not being emotional? You know.

[33:24] Kim Scott: Yeah. And that you're not manipulating people's like that you're hooking into their yeah.

[33:29] Jay Conger: Genuine. So we're they're really kind of and I'll put them into two different buckets. Manipulation tends to rely very heavily on generating fears, anxieties, and anger. more a persuader uses those over and over and over over again, the

[33:52] Kim Scott: Mm.

[33:53] Jay Conger: more likely, not always, but the more likely that there's kind of a manipulative persuasion going on. Now, on the other hand, if you are trying to build action, you do need to generate some fear and anxiety, because otherwise

[34:07] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[34:08] Jay Conger: people won't act.

[34:09] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[34:09] Jay Conger: But if that's what you're feeding people all the time, it starts to be, I would argue, v potentially quite manipulative. So

[34:18] Kim Scott: Yes.

[34:19] Jay Conger: you're leveraging emotions that are really built around energizing people to take an action. So there is this sense of this we need to hurry, there's a sense of urgency, but it usually also has emotions around empowerment, inspiration, these kind of wonderful energizers.

[34:33] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Or compassion in the case of the injuries. It was compassion with those it wasn't fear of being sued, it was compassion with the with these players.

[34:39] Jay Conger: Yes. Empathy. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what Julie did so beautifully at at Children's Hospital. Because

[34:50] Kim Scott: Mm.

[34:51] Jay Conger: as the doctors and nurses talked about near misses, they said to themselves, Wow, I could never carry the burden, emotional burden, of knowing a child

[34:59] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[35:00] Jay Conger: died under my watch or a child

[35:02] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[35:02] Jay Conger: suffered because of the medication mishap.

[35:05] Kim Scott: Right. Right.

[35:08] Jay Conger: So the question is well, how do I leverage emotions without being excessively emotional? And

[35:12] Kim Scott: Yeah, yes.

[35:14] Jay Conger: there are really three ways to do it. One is through powerful stories,

[35:18] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[35:19] Jay Conger: which you've referenced multiple times, and then the few stories I've shared so far. And the the Dillon story is a great example. The second way is by speaking to values.

[35:31] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[35:31] Jay Conger: So one of the individuals, he's not in the book, but he's a person I admire greatly, worked for one of the kind of Very famous consulting firms in the

[35:39] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[35:40] Jay Conger: world. And he was a terrific change agent. And he

[35:43] Kim Scott: Mm.

[35:43] Jay Conger: came from the outside and he said, one of the core values of this organization is being world class in everything we do. We're going to be the

[35:50] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Right.

[35:52] Jay Conger: best. As a consulting firm, we're going be better than our clients. And so

[35:56] Kim Scott: Right. Right.

[35:58] Jay Conger: he was, his mission was to transform one of the back office functions. And the

[36:03] Kim Scott: Mm.

[36:04] Jay Conger: way he did it is he spoke to the partners and he said, We do not have a world class function. We

[36:10] Kim Scott: Wow.

[36:10] Jay Conger: have a mediocre function. But by the way, you have a lot of talented people. It's just they're

[36:15] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[36:16] Jay Conger: they're here are all the forces that are keeping them at bay. And what I want to do is make this function world class. And

[36:23] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[36:24] Jay Conger: he said that really triggered they began to support him because he spoke to

[36:28] Kim Scott: Mm.

[36:28] Jay Conger: one of the core fundamental values. And then the third thing is to speak to your identity. and again we could go back to Julie, which is Her ability to s the doctors and nurses deeply care for children. And she said this is an opportunity for us to care for them at a world-class level of safety that nobody

[36:48] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[36:49] Jay Conger: else is doing. And you will never have to bear the responsibility of a of thinking you might have contributed to a mishap. So

[36:57] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[36:57] Jay Conger: those are the three kind of core ways. We're also listening to your emotions

[37:03] Kim Scott: Mm.

[37:03] Jay Conger: and kind of what are you conveying? So if you're very you think you've got a great idea and we don't hear any enthusiasm

[37:09] Kim Scott: Any passion. Yeah, it it's not that your emotions don't matter at all, but but but it's the other people's emotions that you believe. And there was

[37:17] Jay Conger: That's right. Now

[37:18] Kim Scott: a there was an engineer who I was coaching and he was trying to get something launched and and he was in charge of accessibility features. And he said, I cared so deeply about this because my my mother is hearing impaired and and and so like I couldn't be more emotional. But the i you know, the engineers, they don't care about it. And I said, Well, is this about your emotion or or their emotion? He was like, I said, What are they

[37:49] Jay Conger: Yeah.

[37:49] Kim Scott: feeling? And he said, They feel stressed. And I said, Okay, you've got to tell a story that will that will help them figure out what they're not gonna do. Like, 'cause cause you're going in so passionate and what they hear is, I'm not gonna get any sleep for the next three months, you know.

[38:07] Jay Conger: That's a really wonderful example, Kim. Really

[38:10] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[38:10] Jay Conger: illustrates powerfully. Yeah, and again we're often projecting ourselves out into our decision makers or stakeholders, assuming they're like us. Yeah.

[38:19] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah. So I think that you have given people a great way to think about persuasion. It's dialogue, not monologue. And it's about logic, credibility, or credibility first, then logic, then emotion. Is that the right order?

[38:37] Jay Conger: Yes, that's that's the exact order. And the other thing which I emphasize in the book, and explain how to get there, is being more problem and opportunity centric versus solution centric.

[38:48] Kim Scott: Yes. We g we do it's really an an important point. We do get our egos attached to solutions in a way we don't attach our egos to problems or data, right? It's interesting.

[39:01] Jay Conger: Isn't it? And that creates dilemma. That goes back to the expert dilemma. Roger Roger Boisjoly I got the data.

[39:07] Kim Scott: Yes. Poor poor guy. That he did have the data. He did present the data and It was complicated. well aside from buying your book, which I recommend that everyone listening do, the persuasive leader How can people follow you? How how can people keep in touch with you and get advice from you on on how to be persuasive without being manipulative?

[39:34] Jay Conger: so I LinkedIn is a a great place to start. I do have a website where they can also go. And

[39:41] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[39:42] Jay Conger: the book is out the first week of November. and it's gonna be available on Barnes and Noble, Amazon, so pretty easy

[39:50] Kim Scott: We'll put links in the show notes. Thank you so much, Jay. This was such a great conversation.

[39:56] Jay Conger: Kim, thank you. It's a pleasure and and I've been a great admirer of your book. So it's great to be on your show. Thank you.

[40:04] Kim Scott: Well, I'm a great admirer of your work, so thanks for coming on

Transcript lightly edited for readability. Full transcript available on request.