Get Situated for Success (with Angela Duckworth) 8 | 23

While the Radical Candor podcast team is on a Radical Sabbatical, Kim Scott is spending the season interviewing authors of the books that have shaped her thinking over the past two years. This week that's Angela Duckworth, the Wharton psychologist behind the #1 New York Times bestseller Grit, whose new book Situated argues that changing your environment is usually easier, and more effective, than trying to change your mind.

On this episode of the Radical Candor Podcast, Kim talks with Angela Duckworth about her new book, Situated: Find the People and Places That Bring Out Your Best. They unpack a deceptively simple three-box model that explains a surprising amount of human behavior, why willpower runs out faster than we think, and what separates a situation that helps you grow from one that quietly wears you down.

Watch the episode:

The Three-Box Model: Situations, Thoughts, and Behavior

Angela lays out a deceptively simple model made up of three boxes: your situation, your thoughts, and your behavior. Most people try to change behavior by working directly on their thoughts, but Angela argues the situation box does the most work, shaping what you think before you've even noticed it happening.

Why Willpower Isn't Enough

Kim and Angela talk through the limits of self-control. Angela pushes back on the idea that willpower is a matter of trying harder, and explains why relying on it as a primary strategy sets people up to fail.

Challenge and Support: What Makes a Situation Good

Angela names challenge and support as the two ingredients of a good situation. Kim connects this directly to Radical Candor: the managers and peers worth seeking out are the ones who challenge you and support you at the same time, and Ruinous Empathy, prioritizing short-term comfort over honest feedback, holds people back from the growth that challenge and support together make possible.

One Thing You Can Control: Curate Your Space

If you're looking for one lever you can pull today, Angela shares practical advice on curating your personal space to foster positive habits and support the growth you're after.

Radical Candor Podcast Resources

• Situated: Find the People and Places That Bring Out Your Best
• Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance
• Angela Duckworth bio
• Character Lab
• Behavior Change for Good Initiative

Radical Candor Podcast Transcript

[00:00] Angela: and I want to like bring it back again to what I think was an insight for me personally, you know, not just as a psychologist but as a fellow struggling human. there are people that when I'm with them, it does make doing hard things easier. does it make it not, hard at all to, write a book or to like have an insight about psychology or write a paper or anything? but the the people that you're with make it easier to do that hard thing. And

[00:28] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:29] Angela: I think that's the trick,

[00:34] Kim Scott: Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Radical Sabbatical, where I am talking to the authors of the books that I love that have great meaning for me. And I'm thrilled to be talking with Angela Duckworth today. She has a new book, situated. It is so great. We're gonna talk about it today, and you all are all gonna buy multiple copies of it because it's an awesome book. Now you're gonna pre-order.

[00:59] Angela: No pressure.

[01:00] Kim Scott: Yes. All right. Welcome, Angela. Thank you so much for for being here.

[01:04] Angela: Hi, Kim. It's very good to be here. I'm very excited to be talking to you.

[01:11] Kim Scott: you open this book with a great and very visceral story about going snorkeling. Can you tell our listeners what happened when you took your mother snorkeling?

[01:25] Angela: It was just at the point in the pandemic where people were allowed to fly again, if you recall. And my

[01:29] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Yes.

[01:31] Angela: husband Jason had a brilliant idea, which is that our family should travel from Philadelphia where we'd been cooped up in our homes. I say plural because my mother in law came and my mother came, and we should go to Miami. And we did. And on it does say like who wouldn't want to be in sunny Miami?

[01:47] Kim Scott: Seems like a great idea. Yeah.

[01:52] Angela: It was December. All good. One day we took a family snorkeling trip and

[01:59] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[02:00] Angela: that included my mother, who at the time was I think eighty-six. and we decided all to jump into the Atlantic Ocean. And it wasn't like Club Med snorkeling by exactly it was like forty-five minutes from shore. So we were

[02:11] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. And you were out to see, kind of, where you jumped in.

[02:20] Angela: quite literally in the ocean, not just on the edge of it. And when I when I when I jumped in, I had jumped in just after my my eighty-six year old mother. I immediately thought, and I don't know what I wrote, Kim, but I don't think the editors let me write the exact I mean, I was like, fuck. I mean, real I was just like, fuck.

[02:36] Kim Scott: Say what you really thought. Yeah. How do we wind up here?

[02:44] Angela: Yeah, and like this is bad. I mean, I really,

[02:47] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[02:48] Angela: like in a flash, knew that everybody was in trouble. That wasn't quite true because my able-bodied, you know, adult daughters and my husband had like swum off to the reef where we were

[03:00] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[03:00] Angela: supposed to go snorkeling. But my, you know, you know, barely over 100 pound 90, well, 86-year-old mother was like just kept like taken by the current immediately.

[03:10] Kim Scott: Swept out to sea. Yeah.

[03:12] Angela: And so I went and tried to swim toward her. And, you know, what happened next was essentially that my mother inhaled water, went unconscious.

[03:21] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[03:23] Angela: was floating, unconscious in the ocean, still kept by the you know, current, like going farther and farther behind the boat. And I was there in the ocean trying to save her. That is the opening scene of Situated.

[03:36] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you were you were poorly situated, to put it mildly. You're disastrously situated. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Thanks for yeah. we don't need to leave people on the on the edge of their seats. Yes. Yeah.

[03:42] Angela: I was tragically situated. Yes. Near tr near tragically, 'cause you know, there is a happy ending, but just in case you know Yeah, there's have to be a trigger warning with this one. Yeah.

[03:57] Kim Scott: and and I think that's such a powerful metaphor for this whole book because If you are disastrously situated, you cannot win.

[04:07] Angela: Exactly. And it doesn't matter how hard you try. And I really feel like unless you're I mean, there are other analogous situations, but when you are in the ocean and you're feeling the pull of the ocean current, like the Atlantic Ocean wants you to go one way and you desperately want to go the other. I mean, you can try, but you won't win. And I think that's what I experienced. And so yeah, I think it's a perfect metaphor and I I know you read the book, Kim, so I'll just say that you'll you'll perhaps recall that this French philosopher whom I adore, Michel de Montaigne, you know, has this long essay in which there is this scene which very much parallels the opening scene of this book. He says, you know, we do not go, we are carried, like a cork on the current. And I do

[04:56] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah.

[04:58] Angela: think the power of the situation is that strong, whether we

[05:01] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[05:02] Angela: want to acknowledge that or or or whether we're we're we're happy to acknowledge that. I mean w you know either

[05:08] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.

[05:09] Angela: way, it it's very powerful.

[05:11] Kim Scott: And part of the reason why this opening scene so moved me is that I feel like I am best situated when I am snorkeling. Like 'cause so it took me a while of reading this to realize that this was a disaster. I

[05:23] Angela: You're like, what's wrong with snorkeling?

[05:25] Kim Scott: w I was like so predisposed to think this is gonna be a happy story that it took me a while to realize, my god, this was a d like you and your mother were yeah.

[05:34] Angela: Yeah, it's a nightmare, not a dream. Wait, tell me about your snorkeling. This is this is an avocation I did not know about Kim Scott.

[05:42] Kim Scott: This is my favorite thing to do. I feel like if I want who needs to go to outer space when you can just snorkel? This is and I am well like I can snorkel for four hours and I can I

[05:53] Angela: Really?

[05:54] Kim Scott: am not a strong person. I am not like super duper athletic.

[05:58] Angela: Yeah.

[05:58] Kim Scott: And I'm able to like enter this meditative state and this whole other world with the fish and the coral and the like sometimes I see a shark

[06:06] Angela: Interesting.

[06:07] Kim Scott: and that's exciting. I was snorkeling with an octopus recently. That was incredibly like it just It's a way of realizing that there's all these different kinds of intelligence that I don't even understand. And it's it's awe inspiring.

[06:21] Angela: Well, okay, Kim First of all, you're not the only person in my life that you know, feels like they are best situated when they are snorkeling or scuba diving. My

[06:33] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[06:33] Angela: literary agent, Richard Pine, that is his happy place, right?

[06:37] Kim Scott: Happy place, yeah.

[06:39] Angela: and The wind was so strong that day that it was like exactly the number of knots that you are allowed to be out in a boat, So it

[06:47] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[06:48] Angela: was a it was a windy day, and I think you would probably advise me that should I ever go snorkeling again, I should have an a I

[06:53] Kim Scott: I wouldn't yes, I would not

[06:54] Angela: I should have a captain who keeps an eye on the snorkelers for ex for example. Like yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yeah. Yeah. Wouldn't have mattered if it was Kim Scott.

[06:57] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah. No. What happened to you was a disaster. Like it w I w I too would not have been situated in that in that situation. Yes.

[07:06] Angela: Although you

[07:06] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[07:06] Angela: probably would have been better in the situation, maybe than me. Anyway, yeah.

[07:08] Kim Scott: But if I was with if I were with my mother and trying to keep her like I haven't always loved going snorkeling with my children when they were little because I was I was so focused on keeping them safe that I was not entering this meditative state.

[07:25] Angela: Yes, yes, yes. Well, I may never experience what you've experienced for lots of reasons.

[07:30] Kim Scott: Ha ha

[07:31] Angela: but I do think it's a great metaphor. I don't even know if this French philosopher who lived on a farm in like Normandy, France or something like that for I don't even know had he ever been in the ocean or near the ocean, but the ocean is the perfect metaphor because

[07:47] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[07:47] Angela: you want the current to be going in the same direction as you as you, yes.

[07:50] Kim Scott: in your direction. Yeah. Yeah. You cannot fight it. and I also think it's such a good metaphor because what is a great situation for one person is a disaster for another person. So there's not like one right way to be Yeah, exactly.

[08:04] Angela: Yes. It's like which direction are you trying to go? Right? Yeah. Yeah.

[08:08] Kim Scott: Exactly. All right. I love it. So so you start with the three boxes, and sort of rethink cognitive behavioral therapy. It's not all about your thoughts. it's also about your situation. So explain explain the three boxes and and I've thought about this every day since I read this. So thank you.

[08:32] Angela: I was n you know not the like original author of this very powerful idea. It's so simple, but it explains so much. So I first of want to give credit to its original author, who is James Gross, the

[08:45] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[08:45] Angela: Stanford psychologist who, for his whole life, and his career anyway, has studied emotion and emotion

[08:52] Kim Scott: Mm.

[08:53] Angela: regulation. And he developed a framework for understanding how emotions come to be and how we regulate our emotions, whether they be anxiety, you know, fear,

[09:02] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[09:03] Angela: happiness, and so forth. And then together, we we met each other now like 15 years ago. Like we we expanded it to to really explain all of human behavior. And I know that seems grand, and it is grand, but let me make the

[09:14] Kim Scott: Yeah. It is grand.

[09:17] Angela: case. It is grand. All of human behavior with three boxes and two arrows. So if you draw three boxes on a piece of paper and you connect those three boxes with two arrows, you have box one, box two, and box three. And I'm going to explain box three first, which kind of goes in reverse order. but on the far right side of your piece of paper you have box three, and I'm gonna label that as behavior. Like any be did I, you know, reach for the water bottle, did I slam

[09:45] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[09:45] Angela: on the brakes, did I laugh? so I'm gonna try to explain all of the behaviors that we that we do, and very broadly, like all of our thoughts and feelings do, so anything that we do is a function of the second box, which is what we think. So box three is your behavior, box two are your thoughts. And this is really the bedrock of modern psycho. therapy that when you think a certain thing, it will make you feel and do the appropriate action So for example,

[10:23] Kim Scott: Mm.

[10:23] Angela: if you go to a therapist and you say, I'm very anxious, I'm I'm worrying all the time, and it's really interfering with my sleep, with my social life, and even with my work. You know, you might be focused on how you feel, which is box three, or maybe

[10:39] Kim Scott: Mm.

[10:39] Angela: what you do, like avoiding going out. but the therapist, a modern psychotherapist trained in the cognitive tradition, will say, you know, Angela, let's talk about the thoughts that immediately precede this response. Like maybe you think nobody likes me, maybe you think I'm not good enough, maybe you think something terrible is about to happen. And a lot of therapy, very usefully Basically tries you to update and to correct like maladaptive, inaccurate thoughts. Is it is it true that nobody likes you, Angela? Let's interrogate

[11:13] Kim Scott: Right.

[11:13] Angela: that. But there's another box before box two, and that is what this book is about. It's the situation, the objective circumstances in which you find yourself. Who are you sitting next to, standing next to? Physically, where are you? What zip code are you in? and and really even what are the objects within reach and view. Everything in your physical and social situation is going to influence what you think. Those thoughts, like gosh, you know, nobody likes me. I'm like a complete disaster. Are you

[11:48] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[11:48] Angela: more likely to have those thoughts around certain people and in certain places where your eye catches certain things? or or less likely, and just to use an example when I go to New York, which I love, New York City

[12:03] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[12:04] Angela: is to me like the most amazing place. I find myself actually thinking different things that I think in Philadelphia. I often think like, wow, that's the perfect blouse. And like, my gosh, that that

[12:16] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[12:16] Angela: that painting I just passed by while I was walking down the street is gor was that a Rothko? Like, holy smokes, that gallery has Rothko's.

[12:23] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.

[12:24] Angela: And it makes me think thoughts that are Often comparative, often I find my own life lacking. Like, well, this blouse actually isn't this is what am I even wearing?

[12:33] Kim Scott: Ha

[12:33] Angela: Like, I look terrible. Like I didn't have the perfect chicken salad sandwich. Like, look at the chicken salad sandwiches in the window. And that thought, those thoughts lead me to certain responses. And that is the three boxes model. That the objective situation in which you find yourself changes your thoughts. Your thoughts lead to your responses. It's so simple, it's almost like, yeah, like how else could that be? And yet I think we don't take advantage of that because then if you don't like what's happening in box three, if you're like, I wish I didn't act this way, I wish I didn't feel this way, rather than saying like I'm not going to act that way, and I'm not gonna feel I'm not gonna be anxious anymore. I don't wanna be anxious Angela anymore, I refuse to be. Well, instead of saying that's what I'm gonna do, and even like, I'm gonna think more optimistically, like I I'm gonna put myself into situations in places and with people where I have different thoughts. Like I noticed that when I'm with my friend Tina, this is a true example for me. When I'm with my friend Tina, there's something about her like unconditional affection and her like relentless positivity that like I feel very safe, I feel great, and that leads me to different, you know, thoughts that would lead me

[13:52] Kim Scott: Thought.

[13:53] Angela: to different responses. Right, so you want to act on the situation. Change your situation, change your life.

[13:59] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. You don't when you're with Angela, you don't feel bad about your shirt. When you're walking down Madison Avenue, you're likely to

[14:05] Angela: Ha ha.

[14:06] Kim Scott: feel bad about your shirt. At least I am.

[14:08] Angela: Yes, yes, yes. And and for me it would be like when I'm with Tina in her house in San Mateo, I didn't even think about my shirt,

[14:16] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[14:16] Angela: and and its and its shortcomings. and when I'm walking down Madison Avenue by myself, I do. and

[14:22] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[14:22] Angela: so I can choose to walk down Madison Avenue or I can choose to hang out with Tina in our house. But th you know, those are two different situations and they will change me.

[14:30] Kim Scott: Yeah. So it's so much easier to change your external well, it's not always easier, but it i if you if you yeah. If

[14:38] Angela: It's not always easy, but

[14:40] Kim Scott: you can change your external environment, then you're less likely to have to wrestle with your thoughts. 'Cause wrestling with your thoughts is exhausting. I mean, let's face it, changing your thinking is really tiring.

[14:52] Angela: It is. And I think Kim, you know, and I don't want to discredit, undermine, or even contradict the many books that are about changing your thoughts. You know, don't believe your thoughts, you know, like,

[15:05] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[15:05] Angela: you know, like change your change your mindset and so forth. I I agree that that's an important part of psychological wisdom, right? Is to notice

[15:13] Kim Scott: Yes.

[15:14] Angela: when your thoughts are not serving you and to notice when they're not accurate. And yet I feel like the power move. is to put

[15:22] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[15:22] Angela: yourself in situations where the thoughts that you want to have come to you unbidden.

[15:28] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And figuring out that balance, 'cause you do need to do b I mean, I'll give you a silly example, but my husband has bad teeth and he sometimes slurps when he eats. And the question is, is it easier for me to control my thoughts about the annoyance of the slurping, or is it easier for

[15:44] Angela: He's

[15:45] Kim Scott: him to change his teeth? It's harder for him to change his teeth, so I have to change my thinking. Yeah.

[15:50] Angela: So you have to reframe it. Do you have a do you have a reframing that is working for you?

[15:55] Kim Scott: Yeah, I mean I love this man and I don't want him to get oral surgery, you know, so he can slurp, you know.

[16:00] Angela: Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and I agree. I don't want to say like nobody should go to cognitive therapy. You know, I I think people should go to cognitive therapy, but but as you know, Kim, when you go to a therapist, they will usually embrace, you know, these days, not just the cognitive elements of like working on your box two thoughts to change your box through responses. so very often they will ask you about your box one situation.

[16:30] Kim Scott: Yes.

[16:31] Angela: to you know, put like, you know, if you overeat, they might ask you not just like how do you think about food, what are the thoughts that you have right before you, you know, reach for something that you're going to regret eating, but they might ask you, like, tell me about your kitchen, like tell me about your

[16:45] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[16:46] Angela: routine, what's in your freezer, like what are things that you could do, like you know, putting sneakers by the door so you could take a walk when you're anxious as opposed to like reaching for snack food. So so I think a modern psychotherapist who has Anything like a holistic view will talk about your box two thoughts and talk about your box one situation.

[17:05] Kim Scott: Right. So I'm just gonna I'm gonna hold up this in the book 'cause it's so p it's so simple and

[17:10] Angela: Ha ha ha.

[17:11] Kim Scott: so powerful. Like and and figure out when do you need to change your situation, when do you need to change your thoughts, and when do you just have to live with this situation that emerges from the sit the the combination of those two things.

[17:25] Angela: Yeah, and I I I want to say that when I met James Gross, you know, again, the original author of this idea, and when we write about it in academic papers, you know, there are a few more, you know, complications and nuances, and we break down the thoughts box into like attention and appraisal and things I didn't think were necessary in this treatment. I met him because we both studied self control. and he

[17:49] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[17:50] Angela: was studying self control of emotion, I was studying self-control with like, you know. things like procrastinating on important tasks or

[17:57] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[17:58] Angela: studying or exercising. And one of the reasons why I was so drawn to this like beautifully simple model that explains, you know, the blueprint for human behavior is that so often people just work on box three. They're like, I'm not gonna eat. I'm going to like not eat. I'm going to not procrastinate. I'm going to not scroll, you know, past 10 PM. I'm going to wake up at 6 a.m go for a run. And they're really essentially using willpower, which is directly forcing yourself to do what you

[18:28] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

[18:29] Angela: think is best at box three. And so I just want to say that it is a beautiful framework. It's incredibly simple. And it helps you realize that if you can change your life, not at the last possible minute, when you're like experiencing the urge to do something and you're gonna like suppress it, like

[18:46] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[18:47] Angela: it's just such a it's just a much more graceful, kind. gentle,

[18:53] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[18:54] Angela: you know, joyous way to live.

[18:56] Kim Scott: Yeah, 'cause with willpower you're almost doomed to fail and then to beat yourself up for having failed. And that puts you in a doom loop. At least me.

[19:05] Angela: Yes. I I yeah. By the way, do you have any things that you're like working on? Like are you like, I always do this and I'm working on it? Or are you kind of feeling like you've achieved no

[19:15] Kim Scott: no. I I I got a lot of things I'm working on. top three are probably like not not keeping the my phone out of my environment, getting myself situated around my phone. I drink to yeah, I'm on it too much. I d I

[19:28] Angela: 'Cause you're on it too much? Okay. Yeah.

[19:31] Kim Scott: you I toggle between not drinking at all and drinking too much. So I struggle with alcohol for sure. And

[19:36] Angela: yeah. Yeah.

[19:38] Kim Scott: now I think AI is really very addictive. And so fig

[19:48] Angela: Mm.

[19:49] Kim Scott: like not going down because it's it's almost like it's

[19:51] Angela: Addictive? Like how is it addictive?

[19:54] Kim Scott: I think that you become almost bionic when you're used like you can do so much more in so much less time and then it becomes hard to stop working. or even to think yeah, yeah, yeah. a lot of people

[20:05] Angela: interesting. So like you'll be engaged with Claude and you'll be like, my gosh, I have to whatever, go to dinner or something. What are you using?

[20:13] Kim Scott: Yeah, I'm I'm using Rebel Mindstone. It's a company called Mindestone and they have this thing called Rebel. And it's I love it. I love I love my Rebel. But that's kind of a problem,

[20:24] Angela: yeah. Well, yeah, like when you observe, you know, fill in the blank behavior because other people might be like, I don't know what she's talking about, but I do know

[20:32] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[20:32] Angela: what she's talking about with the phone or but like just any of us can introspect and think, well, you know, very few people, maybe nobody with any kind of self awareness. like doesn't have something that they wouldn't want to change at box three, you know, like I wish I talked to my mother more, or I wish I were

[20:46] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[20:49] Angela: a little more present when I'm, you know, with friends.

[20:51] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[20:52] Angela: I mean, whatever it is, you you can use this framework. I mean, you do have the option to, you know, force yourself to be more mindful with your friends or not use Rebel. Like you can Exactly

[21:03] Kim Scott: Although you're gonna fail, I would say, when if you're trying to force yourself. Like getting into a fight with yourself, you always lose. Right.

[21:11] Angela: Yes, yes, exactly. I I find it really interesting. And I don't know that I've in my I've been studying self-control since my earliest days of graduate school. I started out studying self-control and grit and you know, close cousins, but self-control is really as scientists define it, the choice of one option that is enduringly valued, you know, health, learning,

[21:35] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[21:36] Angela: harmony, family, over an inferior option. Like pleasure,

[21:43] Kim Scott: Mm.

[21:43] Angela: for example, that that is nevertheless that inferior option is like nevertheless more immediately alluring. You're like, of course

[21:50] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[21:51] Angela: I would choose family over pleasure, except for, what's this next thing in my feed, right? Like, so

[21:55] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

[21:57] Angela: so I I do think that willpower, I agree with you. One thing that I've never figured out, I mean, I've been studying this forever, is why we are so persistently relying on willpower. So in in research that I you know, talk about in the book and and certainly have done over the years is is just always a surprise to me how people will will even tell you that willpower is ineffective and and yet the when you ask them what they do, like, so what do you do to exercise? Like what do you do to stay off your phone? Like what do you do to like they they just are like, willpower. Yeah, exactly. I just force myself, you know. so

[22:27] Kim Scott: Self flagellation. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[22:35] Angela: so I've never quite figured out why it is that we rely on this. I have some ideas. But anyway, I I think it's interesting, a little mystery about human nature.

[22:42] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's some there's some aspect of I don't know, holier than thou or something in will power.

[22:49] Angela: Yeah, how d why what do you think, Kim? Like why do you think it is that we s flagellate ourselves when it's sort of kind of obvious that that's, you know, not the smartest thing to do?

[22:59] Kim Scott: I think that it is it it's like a battle for power and control, which is always a bad battle. So I wanna control myself, you know. And and there's something that feels it feels like you should be able to control yourself. You know, there's a we should all

[23:15] Angela: Mm.

[23:16] Kim Scott: over ourselves. I don't know though. I mean I I haven't I've only been on the on the receiving end. I haven't studied this per se. But that's for me is I should all over myself. Yeah.

[23:25] Angela: Well, like I said, it's not it's not yeah, so then you're like 'cause then 'cause you know, like the idea that you wouldn't be able to just like stop eating the ice cream or like put the phone down or always like, well, what kind of person would I be if I can't do that, right? Some like weak willed

[23:39] Kim Scott: Yeah, it feels almost like it goes back to potty training, maybe. It feels like incontinence. I don't know. Yeah.

[23:47] Angela: yes, right, right, right, right, yeah, yeah. Well, there's this very old idea in psychology which is called affectance motivation. and I won't expect you to have heard of it because it's like

[23:56] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. I haven't.

[23:58] Angela: buried in books that are not read anymore. But this now goes back like, you know, well over fifty years, maybe over seventy years. But affectance motivation is the notion that we have a drive as humans to be the cause of effects. Like

[24:14] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Yes.

[24:16] Angela: It gives us some inherent pleasure. You know, imagine like imagine you're playing a video game and you know, you move the joystick to the left and like the little, you know, avatar or whatever moves to the left and you move to

[24:26] Kim Scott: Yeah, you make something happen.

[24:27] Angela: you made something happen and regardless whether you got points or shot down the target or whatever, like moving to the left. it went to the left and moving to the right. And it's it's in a way the opposite of of helplessness, right? The opposite

[24:38] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[24:38] Angela: and and I do think there's something intrinsically rewarding. about control. So the idea that we cannot

[24:45] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[24:46] Angela: control our appetites, our urges, you know, like you don't wanna you don't wanna like so so we we like the idea of having control. We don't wanna think of ourselves as not having control.

[24:57] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's almost like free will kind of thing. yes.

[25:02] Angela: It is very much like that. And I just want to make the sobering argument that we are less in control of ourselves than we think. We are so reactive.

[25:11] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[25:12] Angela: And I know, Kim, you're you know, you asked me before we started recording, like, where are you? And I'm like, I'm kind of like hiding out in my friend's, workspace, and like it's not where I usually work, and that's all true. Here's just a trivial But very immediate example for me. When I got to this office, I was like, they have like vats of gum and and like that kind of milk that has extra protein. I mean, literally cases and cases. You know, like I just,

[25:40] Kim Scott: Yeah. That yeah. Yes.

[25:43] Angela: you know, I am surrounded, you know, in you know, 270 degrees with like gum and protein milk. And at first I was like making jokes about it. And we're like, ha, look

[25:52] Kim Scott: door.

[25:53] Angela: at all this gum, and like, look at all this protein milk. And I kid you not, but by day two, we were just chewing gum all day, which we have been, and drinking protein milk. I'm like, yep, you know,

[26:00] Kim Scott: Right. And drinking protein.

[26:03] Angela: so so how much free will, like how much control do I really have? Or am I just gonna mold to this situation?

[26:09] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

[26:12] Angela: Because that is the power of the s that it is the ocean

[26:15] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[26:15] Angela: and I'm the swimmer.

[26:17] Kim Scott: Yes. And you can choose a better situation. So you have an excellent an excellent framework in your in your book for what kind of situation in generally, writ large, do we want to be in? I'm gonna sh I'm gonna hold up this page too. You you want to seek out situations that challenge you, but that also support you. You don't want only one or the other. And you know me, I love a good two by two.

[26:44] Angela: Yes, and it's your two by two. Don't you think it's basically the radical candor two by two?

[26:49] Kim Scott: So it's very interesting. You ch you put the axes, the different ones, horizontally and and vertically than I did. And I think I don't no, I think it was subcon it w sorry, I'm I'm interrup

[26:57] Angela: Which was arbitrary for me, by the way. I there's to me nothing deep. You think?

[27:03] Kim Scott: I'm gonna show something that I think will

[27:05] Angela: Yeah, go ahead.

[27:06] Kim Scott: be fun for both of us. So a and and that explains at least to me why I put the axes the way I did and why you put the axes the way that you did.

[27:17] Kim Scott: So, for those of you who are listening and not watching, I wanna paint a picture for you of the radical candor two by two. On the vertical axis is care personally, and on the horizontal axis is challenge directly. When you are caring and challenging at the same time, you get radical candor. When you're caring but you're not challenging, you get ruinous sympathy. You're giving ruinous sympathy, rather. When you challenge but you forget to show you care. I call that obnoxious aggression and when you're neither caring nor challenging, that's manipulative insincerity.

[27:54] Kim Scott: I think what I was the reason why I put care personally first is that I was thinking about what managers need to give. And I think that managers sort of know they're supposed to challenge, but often they forget To care personally. And to me, the vertical axis is the one you see the first. So care personally. Yeah. And

[28:14] Angela: interesting. Well, that is very deep. I'd have to go to psychoanalysis to figure out like whether my axes were like, you know, in the way they were for some subconscious reason. But but I do want to say, that the top right quadrant. is where you want to be, which is high challenge, high support.

[28:32] Kim Scott: Yes. Yes.

[28:34] Angela: And I do think there probably are like more common mistakes, right? And I I I guess I would leave it to you as to like, you know, what what do you know people, you know, fall into? I think you've you've argued that at least from the manager's perspective, they fall into the care but not challenging, right? Ruinous empathy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[28:55] Kim Scott: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that what I'm gonna I'm gonna flip the axes now. This is your two by two. And the magic. Yeah.

[29:03] Angela: Mm, wow, this is amazing. The magic of hello. Yeah. The magic. Yeah, it's very graphical.

[29:10] Kim Scott: So here is your two by two, Angela. Challenge is on the vertical axis, support is on the horizontal axis. And when you seek out both challenge and support, you're gonna grow. You're gonna get growth. If you seek out support but you forget to look to be challenged, you're gonna wind up with complacency as part of part of your day-to-day. If you're seeking out challenge but you forget to look for support from the people around you, you're gonna wind up burning out. And if you're not looking for either challenge or support, you're gonna wind up feeling apathetic.

[29:45] Kim Scott: so challenge and support. You get growth when you get both challenge and support. So I think you're focused on what what should you seek out when you're trying to get situated. You should seek out both chall and I think Often, especially early in your career, the instinct is to look for support before you look for being challenged. The instinct is to take the class pass fail rather than to take it graded.

[30:11] Angela: Yeah, or to not ask for negative feedback or critical feedback or how whatever you want to frame it as,

[30:14] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah.

[30:17] Angela: I I think that's right. So that would be similar to, you know, if managers fall into the trap of ruinous empathy, then, you know, workers like fall into the trap of like essentially what I would say is complacency, but basically taking

[30:29] Kim Scott: Yes.

[30:30] Angela: this easy, you know, friction free, critical, you know, free, criticism free path. I I think that's true. I I think it's true of me as well. Like I was just speaking to a new editor, because I'm gonna take on some writing. Prust me, it's not a book, but like take on some writing projects

[30:51] Kim Scott: Ha

[30:52] Angela: that are not a book. and I said at the end of the conversation, I was like, Look, I hope you will give me feedback on anything big or small that I can do. To be easier to work with. I kind of stole that from you, Kim. I was like, if there's anything that I can do that would make it easier for me to work. And I was like, by the way, I'm sure I'll be defensive at first.

[31:12] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[31:13] Angela: but I really do want to like, you know, get better and better at working together. And that was conversation one. But I only said that because at the age of 56, I'm still feeling this pull to the quadrant where it's like, everything's great, Angela, like amazing. Have a good day.

[31:31] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. You and me both. That's why I wrote the book. I I fall prey to the gravitational

[31:35] Angela: Yeah.

[31:36] Kim Scott: pull of ruinous empathy. I you know,

[31:38] Angela: Yeah.

[31:39] Kim Scott: which is kind of a a version another way of saying it is like false harmony. Like I want I don't

[31:45] Angela: Yeah.

[31:45] Kim Scott: w I don't wanna have I don't want to give criticism, I don't wanna have a disagreement, I don't wanna say no, I don't wanna do any of those things. And yet my relationships are worse and my work is worse if I failed to to do those things and to create to help the people around me get situated so that they can do them, so that they can also say no to me, criticize me, disagree with me.

[32:11] Angela: Yeah, and I'm not gonna write another book, but if I did, I really have thought about this. I think so many of the problems of humanity, at the level

[32:19] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[32:19] Angela: of the individual and at the level of society, of relationships, have the following form that what you're doing makes you feel good now, but is not the best thing for you in the long run. And I definitely

[32:30] Kim Scott: Yeah, yes.

[32:32] Angela: think that about criticism. It's like who would wanna be like, you know like assaulted with, you know, one, two or three things that I could do differently and better. That makes me feel terrible. But but it is better for you in the long run. You know, who wants to have an honest conversation with their spouse about like, well, it's definitely better in the long run. And and I really think that like when it comes to like policy issues, legislation, who we elect for our leaders, you know, how we handle criticism at work, what we eat, you know, like how we spend time at ten o'clock at night,

[33:01] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[33:02] Angela: s it's a really I think increasingly challenging dilemma, you know, that you cannot do the thing that's best for you in the long run and also feel the most, you know, fun, relaxed and you know, carefree in the moment.

[33:19] Kim Scott: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. You've so much of what you talk about in the book is being willing to push through those awkward moments, those uncomfortable moments in the service of your future self. And your future self needs growth, needs some growth. needs to get better at something.

[33:38] Angela: and I want to like bring it back again to what I think was an insight for me personally, you know, not just as a psychologist but as a fellow struggling human. there are people that when I'm with them, it does make doing hard things easier. does it make it not, hard at all to, write a book or to like have an insight about psychology or write a paper or anything? but the the people that you're with make it easier to do that hard thing. And

[34:07] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[34:07] Angela: I think that's the trick, Okay, well maybe if you get situated, you know, like at least that very,

[34:11] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[34:12] Angela: very hard thing will be easier. I know I know you're supposed to talk to me about my book, but what is your next book about?

[34:19] Kim Scott: It's it's a science fiction book. It's about the class of twenty twenty having their fiftieth high school reunion. So it's twenty seventy and Everybody's a little more optimistic then than they are now. I'm not saying we've solved all the world's problems, but it's and it's actually the it it leads me to the next part of your book, because there's a there's a central question about the the story between the grandfather and his grandson. The grandfather says to his

[34:48] Angela: Mm.

[34:49] Kim Scott: grandson, A fight is going on inside me between two wolves. One is evil, he is anger, greed, arrogance. The other is good, he has joy, peace, love, compassion. and the same fight is going inside you, the grandfather tells his grandson, and is going inside every other person too. The grandson asks his grandfather which wolf will win. And the grandfather answers the one you feed. I've told this story. Every time I read this,

[35:17] Angela: Isn't that so great?

[35:19] Kim Scott: I don't know how I've gotten to age 59 and never heard this before. But

[35:24] Angela: It's good one.

[35:25] Kim Scott: It's a great story. And the question is, how do you feed your good wolf? And also, if you happen to be a manager, how do you create an environment that feeds everybody's good wolf, including your own? And I think there's also a broader question, not only about management systems, but about economic systems. Like right now, I would say our economic system is feeding our bad wolf. And

[35:51] Angela: Mm.

[35:51] Kim Scott: And not that the people who are winning are bad wolves. They're they have good wolves too, you know, but they're it's their bad wolves that we are collectively feeding. Yes.

[35:59] Angela: Like inside them, right? Like it's like the incentive system and structures. Can you I do not disagree, but like in what ways specifically is the situation in which we find ourselves like bringing out our bad wolf?

[36:13] Kim Scott: So for example, I think that kind of since the 70s we have had sort of a rich get richer algorithm in our economy. And so the rich have been getting richer, the poor have getting have been getting poorer, the middle class has been getting smaller. and and now we're at this almost absurd level of of wealth disparity in our society. Like we're feeding greed. Greed is not good. I'm just gonna say that.

[36:43] Angela: Yes, I'm gonna agree with you. The greed is not good, you know, disparities are not good. And also there's a lot of social science research showing that, you know, the more inequality like the mean could be the same, right? Like the average amount

[36:54] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[36:54] Angela: of wealth could be the same. But controlling for that, right? Like all things being equal, the more, you know, there are haves and have nots, the the the worse off everyone is, right? I think you're

[37:06] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[37:07] Angela: making the point that it's not just at the low end, but at the high end. I am gonna go on the record as agreeing with you. it's not a great situation.

[37:14] Kim Scott: Excellent. There's a great book about this called The Sum of Us by Heather McGee about how

[37:19] Angela: gosh, I didn't know that.

[37:20] Kim Scott: it's it's a it's a wonderful book.

[37:22] Angela: Mm.

[37:23] Kim Scott: but it's about this very thing. an economy grows better when everybody's participating in it. When we exclude

[37:31] Angela: Yeah.

[37:32] Kim Scott: ninety percent of the people from our economy, our economy is gonna shrink. So you were talking in another podcast I heard about sort of how much CEOs are paid. And it's you know, it used to be thirty times more and now it's three hundred times more, whatever the number is. And

[37:48] Angela: Yeah, some factor.

[37:49] Kim Scott: yeah, and and you would think that, well, you know, usually the justification for that is well, these CEOs they're creating value, they're they're helping the economy grow. But the economy was growing much faster when it was thirty to one than now.

[38:03] Angela: yeah, I must have been referring to the work of Mike Norton, the Harvard Business School professor who's done a lot of work on like CEO payment in the US compared to

[38:14] Kim Scott: Yes.

[38:14] Angela: CEO payment in Norway or Japan.

[38:17] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[38:18] Angela: And and it and it is really interesting where I kind of feel like my job is my vocation is being like Julia Child for psychology. It's like Hey,

[38:29] Kim Scott: Ha

[38:29] Angela: everybody should know how to like bone a chicken. unless you're vegan, I guess you don't have to know about that.

[38:32] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[38:34] Angela: But but like Mike Norton, everybody should know about

[38:36] Kim Scott: Yes.

[38:37] Angela: Mike Norton at Harvard Business School. I do think that in general social science is on your side, Kim, with this thesis. And you know, one of the things I really struggled with when writing the book was, like you're talking about writing a third book, you know, a science fiction novel set in the future. Obviously, I think this is, some kind of commentary on the situation we're in, right? That provokes

[38:59] Kim Scott: Yes.

[38:59] Angela: the thesis, that makes you want to establish a certain kind of narrative. You you could ask the question, like, okay, you may think that there are things about the macro situation, you know, the world in which we're in, in this time in history that are beyond your control. so

[39:16] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[39:17] Angela: isn't that a depressing thing to write about, like the situation? Because think of all the things that you can't change. Like Kim Scott, as powerful as Kim Scott is, and as amazing as radical candor

[39:26] Kim Scott: I c I can't change it. Yeah.

[39:28] Angela: is, it's not like you're gonna change, you know, CEO payment, in the

[39:31] Kim Scott: No.

[39:31] Angela: United States. And and I I I I just think that like I first I wanna just say like that is a fair critique, if you will, of this book. I mean it has a really like self-help subtitle, like find the people and places that bring out your best. And and I think it's a a reasonable critique to say, like, well, you aren't able to change everything around you.

[39:53] Kim Scott: And you can change a lot. I mean, you talk about you can pick your peers, you know, you can choose your friends, you can choose your mentors, you talk a lot about s situational agency, you can choose where you live. And all of these things are gonna have a huge impact. And I think if more people collectively realize they have the agency to leave one job and choose another, where they're gonna you tell a great story about Wegmans, for example. then if we all collectively assume our agency and go to better situations,

[40:30] Angela: it it it is a version of like which wolf do you feed, right? It's like,

[40:33] Kim Scott: Yes.

[40:33] Angela: well, if I, you know, if we all like leave, you know, oppressive situations because like, you know, we are we find those power dynamics unacceptable, then we will, somehow feed the good wolf and in in that same way, like, starve the bad wolf. And, you know, you mentioned Wegmans, I just had to smile because I love Wegmans so much and I know that not everyone lives near a Wegmans supermarket, but what a beautiful world it would be if Everyone could buy like the marathon bread at Wegmans, which is my personal

[41:01] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[41:02] Angela: favorite. It has like lots of seeds in it. and when I wrote about it, it was partly because my mom, who did live and now she's ninety-one and very healthy. so she miraculously, you know, you know, revived in the emergency room

[41:18] Kim Scott: Yes.

[41:19] Angela: and the C PR and all that good stuff. and so she's a total Wegmaniac as the

[41:24] Kim Scott: Yes.

[41:25] Angela: self-described lovers of wagmans are. And like you go to that supermarket and like I defy you to be like unhappy. It's like you walk in and one's like, Hello Can I help you? And then the

[41:38] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[41:38] Angela: food is beautiful and it's h healthy and it's delicious and, you know, it's reasonably priced. And then, you just like get helped and smiled at by like ten people and then you leave and yeah, it's an amazing place. And I wrote about it not only 'cause my mom was such a devotee. When we had her 90th birthday, like the birthday cake had to be from Wegmans. So we are Wegmans all the way as a family. But I I I wrote about it because I started first casually and then more formally interviewing people who had worked there and had worked at multiple places. So I tried to interview people who had worked at Wegmans, but they had other had had other jobs. You know, some of these people had been in restaurants, some of these people had been in other supermarkets and and by the way, these are not the most privileged people, Kim. These are not people who are like hopscotching from like McKinsey to Bain or from

[42:25] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

[42:27] Angela: one investment bank to another. And these stories, which often ended in tears of of

[42:32] Kim Scott: Gratitude.

[42:33] Angela: yes, gratitude, poignant, kind of like it changed my life, Best decision I ever made other than marrying my spouse. It can change your life to change your situation, even if you're not like, with this resume, I could go anywhere. Many of the people I talked to had very few choices, but they did have some choice. and yes, they could work at this supermarket or that supermarket, each of which were in commuting distance of their home. And and I do think those moves that you can make in some cases, and of course you can always think of cases that you can't. But like when you can make a move for the better, what holds us back often, isn't finance, it isn't, the laws of physics. It's our own psychological inertia to cling to what we already have, status quo bias to use the jargon

[43:25] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[43:25] Angela: of of social science. You know, there is a strong bias to stick with the status quo. And I don't know, I'd like to nudge people in the direction of of movement when the movement is something you recognize as as potentially better for you.

[43:40] Kim Scott: Yeah, you tell such a great story about a Wegmans employee who decided to work there. He was working at a grocery store down the street and then he interviewed at Wegmans and somebody from Wegmans came in and said hi to him and knew his name and

[43:52] Angela: Yeah. Yeah.

[43:53] Kim Scott: he was like, My own boss here doesn't know my name. I'm gonna g

[43:56] Angela: Yeah.

[43:56] Kim Scott: I'm gonna I'm gonna take this job if I get it. he was getting

[43:59] Angela: Yeah, that's exactly what happened.

[44:01] Kim Scott: yeah, he was getting situated, 'cause he knew he was in a place that was high support and also was gonna challenge him to do better work.

[44:10] Angela: that manager who manages a Wegmans near me, it's in Malvern, Pennsylvania, and his name is Tim

[44:13] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[44:15] Angela: Risser. and and that interview ended with some, emotion, and you know, we're we're so influenced by these situations and he did work up the courage to leave a supermarket where he had been For many years it was very comfortable for him. And and he

[44:32] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[44:32] Angela: said in that conversation that we had, you know, I have two daughters and I know what it means to resist the uncertainty of a move. You know, he's

[44:44] Kim Scott: Mm.

[44:44] Angela: like, I know that uncertainty is very uncomfortable for any of us. maybe I should stick with what I've got, right? 'Cause who knows, you know, like what

[44:51] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

[44:52] Angela: will it be like to work, at Wegmans for these other people. and that and that he was so glad. that he did and that he's trying to teach his daughters that. And I I I think he's so right. I have time and again in my own life resisted change. I mean I also say in the book, and it's true, that I was, in some academic procession, and I'm in line after Johnny Maida, who's like a designer and a lot more comfortable with change. I actually

[45:18] Kim Scott: Yes.

[45:21] Angela: He think he's actually quite well known, right, in the tech world. So so what's he well known for?

[45:24] Kim Scott: Yeah, he is. He's he and I have done he design and also he's interestingly tried worked very hard to design some online Zoom situations that have the feel of a in person situation. That was one of the things I he's known for a million things. He's

[45:44] Angela: interesting. Like, yeah.

[45:46] Kim Scott: a he's a brilliant designer. And

[45:49] Angela: I mean I I I knew a little bit because of course they're like reading his bio at this like ceremony and I was like, that's pretty cool. But

[45:56] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[45:56] Angela: but his his question to me was, you know, I was like, Hi, I'm Angela, what do you do? I'm a psychologist. and then I think I must have shared with him that at that time and it's years ago, I was like, you know, I wonder whether I should stay where I am. Because I don't feel necessarily like I'm growing, like I did at the early

[46:15] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[46:15] Angela: part of my career. And he suggested that I move. And like before he could finish his question, I interrupted. I'm like, I can't. I can't nope, can't change. Nope. Not possible. Like, it's so reflexive. Like, my mother-in-law lives here. Nope, my mother lives here. My husband's,

[46:33] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[46:33] Angela: you know, got it. He's in real estate. Like, isn't it interesting how resistant we are to even imagining what it would be to change our situation, I think that's so interesting.

[46:45] Kim Scott: And that's why I want to write this this science fiction novel, because I want to imagine. Even if I can't actually create the better world, I can't change CEO Pay, I can imagine what it would be like if we did, and maybe that Spurs action.

[47:00] Angela: my PhD advisor, Marty Seligman, has a book that's out September eighth. And

[47:06] Kim Scott: Okay.

[47:06] Angela: Marty Seligman Is well known for his work on optimism and and its opposite, which is helplessness. And now Marty's 83, and

[47:16] Kim Scott: Mm.

[47:17] Angela: he's written a book called Agency, and he wants to say, in support, by the way, of what you're talking about, about like elaborating a possibility that doesn't yet exist, but just in the elaboration, makes it more likely that it will exist. He wants to say that imagination and it and particularly imagining possible futures, which it seems like Only human beings can do. Like it doesn't seem like animals are very good at this. We can't know for sure, but it does seem like Homo sapiens is especially good at imagining possible futures. he wants to say that is one of the most important forms of human agency that there is,

[47:53] Kim Scott: Yes.

[47:54] Angela: and one of the great drivers of progress in civilization. So I recommend that book to you and your listeners. it's really cool, it's very cool, yeah.

[48:03] Kim Scott: I'm excited. Okay. I will I I'm excited to read it. September eighth.

[48:09] Angela: Yes.

[48:10] Kim Scott: all right. So I wanna end and I want you to tell

[48:12] Angela: We yeah.

[48:14] Kim Scott: readers what they can do, what's the one thing they can do to get situated.

[48:21] Angela: Alright, I'm gonna give you the first thing you should do because it's the

[48:23] Kim Scott: Okay.

[48:24] Angela: easiest thing that you can do, the most immediate, and there will be no contradictions like I can't, I can't, I can't. and that is to curate your personal space.

[48:36] Kim Scott: Yes.

[48:37] Angela: doesn't require you switching jobs or switching zip codes, doesn't require that you switch out your friend group or you know, find a mentor. Your personal space is that which is within sight and reach. And that is generally what is within three feet, right? Yes, three feet in each direction.

[48:47] Kim Scott: Yes, the Yeah.

[48:52] Angela: I mean, unless you have really long arms.

[48:54] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[48:55] Angela: but but why is it important that those objects, I mean you can really do it right now, like audit your personal space. I have often interviewed people and they're like, yeah, I've thrown my phone across the room. I it's this exact phrase, I've thrown my you know why? Because to get something you have thrown more than three feet away through. requires you to get up. And you what people don't like to do? They don't like to get up. So, you know,

[49:14] Kim Scott: Get up.

[49:16] Angela: if you want to eat more junk food, no problem. Put it within three feet of you. If you want to eat less, you know, put it with you know n not within three feet of you and ideally not in sight. So really curating your personal space, put in your personal space what you want to do more and take out of your personal space what you want to do less. Literally you can do that right now. You can audit your personal space and you can change your personal space. And you don't have to be rich, you don't have to be privileged. You don't have to be super educated. You just have to do it. and the last thing I'll say is I've noticed and I'm not gonna get a tattoo, but I have noticed that many people will get tattoos because that is what definitely within your personal space because it's on your body. And

[49:59] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah.

[50:02] Angela: they will do you know, whatever it is that they want to be reminded of, you know, like a certain phrase, a certain symbol. And I think that is a f a way of getting situated. Like people

[50:14] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[50:15] Angela: also that I have studied as, you know, 'cause I study world class performers, my gosh, they love quotes. They love having them engraved in wood and in brass and in pewter.

[50:22] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

[50:25] Angela: You know, they love having them hang on the wall, or, you know, otherwise in their personal space there's a last thing I'll say is there's a pastor, and I guess he's a chaplain for Penn. His name is Chaz Howard, and I just love him to death. And he very often comes to my class to speak, as you have as well, Kim. And he tells me that, you know, as an academic and as a chaplain, he's got bookshelves, you know, just like you do.

[50:51] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.

[50:52] Angela: He's very intentionally put at eye level the spines of the books that he just wants his eyes to alight on for a microsecond before he sits down on his desk and And does whatever so that every day he sees those words and he sits down. And he won't see as often the books at the bottom of the shelf. And it's those moves like, Okay, great, that I can do. Is it the only thing I want you to do? No. But it is the first thing I want you to do.

[51:19] Kim Scott: I love that. Everybody go do that immediately. I hereby commit. I'm keeping my phone somewhere else. That is that yes, you're gonna be yeah, well that's the peer. You can choose your peers. So you can ask me. Ask me in a week

[51:27] Angela: I'm gonna ask you about that, Kim. I'm gonna be your accountability partner. Yes, we are friends.

[51:34] Kim Scott: if I am better about that. Yes. All right. Thank you so much, Angela. Everybody get a copy, pre-order situated. What what's the date it's out?

[51:43] Angela: September first.

[51:44] Kim Scott: September first. All right. Excellent. Thank you so much, Angela.

[51:48] Angela: Thank you, Kim.