How do you fix what’s not working without losing trust in the process? On this episode of The Radical Candor Podcast, Kim and Amy talk with beloved Harvard Business professor Frances Frei and her wife, CEO and bestselling author Anne Morriss, about why speed and care aren’t opposites — and how the right sequence of actions can help you go faster and strengthen relationships along the way.
Watch the episode:
Anne and Frances break down the five-day framework behind their book Move Fast and Fix Things, share real stories from coaching leaders and teams, and explain why so many of us misdiagnose the problems we’re trying to solve. They also walk through their “trust triangle” — authenticity, logic, and empathy — and reveal how understanding your own “wobbles” can help you communicate more clearly, lead with confidence, and create momentum without leaving people behind.
[00:00:04] Kim: Hello everybody, and welcome to the Radical Candor Podcast. I'm Kim Scott.
[00:00:09] Amy: I am Amy Sandler, and we are so excited to welcome to the podcast Anne Morris and Frances Fry. Anne and Frances are bestselling authors and among the world's most influential thinkers, speakers, and advisors. Anne's a CEO, and bestselling author, and Frances is a professor of technology and operations management at Harvard Business School.
[00:00:30] So when companies want help reaching their most ambitious goals. They call Anne and Frances and when folks like you, our listeners are needing fast, meaningful fixes for your workplace problems, they call into Anne and Frances' podcast. It's called Fixable and get their problems solved in 30 minutes or less.
[00:00:53] Kim: love the efficiency.
[00:00:55] Amy: Also, also, I know Kim, that's your love language and
[00:00:57] speaking of love languages, Anne and Frances are also married. We are excited to welcome you both.
[00:01:04] Anne: Oh, we're delighted to be here.
[00:01:05] Kim: Thrilled to talk to you. I love the idea of moving fast and fixing things, and in particular, I love it because when, I think this was back in 2013, but a friend of mine who worked at Facebook at the time sent me a picture. And they had these old posters on the wall that said. Move fast and break things, and someone had replaced it with a stop sign, and it said, slow down and fix your shit. Um, so, So I wonder, as you all talk about moving fast and fixing things, are you sort of like the person who changed the poster on the wall of Facebook or what's the thinking?
[00:01:49] Frances: , One of the things that reason that we wrote this is that we feel that, move fast and break things, gave speed a bad name, and that improvement actually reveals that speed, like thinking, oh, if I, if only I slow down. I just want to say it's still not gonna fix it. and indeed, you need momentum.
[00:02:08] So once you fix it, momentum helps. So, one of the reasons we wrote the book was to give speed a good name again, give it back. it's proper place in the hierarchy.
[00:02:20] Kim: yeah. And I love what you said, Frances, about momentum. 'Cause I do feel so often, like part of Radical Candor is about momentum. And so, the, the biggest problem is that people say nothing. That's the biggest problem in general in all different kinds of relationships. And so, if you say something and you don't say it right, you can fix it. But, if you say nothing, you can't fix it. Right? my great grandmother had five daughters and she needle pointed a pillow for each of them that said, say something, you can always take it back.
[00:02:53] Frances: That's so good.
[00:02:55] Kim: if I don't say anything, I'm in my own mind, so my ceiling is my thought, but if I say something, the ceiling is now our collective. And so, the potential is just so much higher if I put it out there and we get to work with it.
[00:03:11] Yes. And also, I may be wrong about what I'm thinking, and if I don't do you the honor of sharing what I'm thinking with you, then I deprive you of the opportunity to tell me that I'm wrong.
[00:03:23] Anne: I do a lot of coaching and at my side of the house, prince and I are married, but we have different lanes. We swim into to each other's lanes all the time, I do a lot of the one-on-one work and what we'll often hear from CEOs and senior leaders is, I don't have time for this shit. You know, this kind of doing this the right way, working with people saying what's on your mind? You know,
[00:03:46] Kim: Mm-hmm.
[00:03:47] Anne: Doing the work so that you can ultimately move fast. And the big message of our work is that you do have to sequence it. You can go as fast as the trust you have built with the stakeholders around you.
[00:03:59] Kim: Exactly.
[00:04:00] Anne: And so, we wrote this book to give people a playbook for how to do that.
[00:04:04] Kim: It's sort of like a stitch in time, saves nine,
[00:04:07] Anne: This is not new wisdom. You know, we're coming up with, with newfangled language for it, but people have known this for a long time.
[00:04:14] Kim: Yeah. So can you share a story about where this works? specifically what are you talking about? like it conjures all kinds of things to my mind. When you say move fast and fix things, but what, what are you thinking of? what's your origin story of Move Fast and Fix Things?
[00:04:31] Frances: Oh, the origin. probably, for me it goes back to Uber, and they were in a, you know,
[00:04:37] Kim: They had a,
[00:04:37] lot to fix.
[00:04:38] Frances: they had a lot to fix. and if we took a long time to fix it, that wasn't gonna be, that wasn't gonna solve it. it's so much easier to galvanize people with momentum but, there's a few things as Anne said, that you had to do. So, we had to make sure we were solving the right problem and when I got to Uber, everyone was very busy,
[00:05:01] Kim: Yes.
[00:05:03] Frances: but too often we're working on symptoms. And so, the Monday of it all, because we sequence it in five steps and we playfully do it as days of the week.
[00:05:12] What we do on Monday is make sure we're solving the right problem and that actually liberates time 'cause it stops you from the infinite game of working on the symptoms. And so, when we got to Uber, and I say we, I was the one who physically went there, but Anne and I do all of work together. We got there to figure out what is the problem. Very fortunately, there were very few problems. They just manifested everywhere.
[00:05:39] Kim: Yeah.
[00:05:41] Frances: but we could have just started to go where all the smoldering was and just joined in the busyness, so that's, I think the origin of it is we wanted to go fast. It wasn't to add more things to the plate; it was to replace things on the plate and ultimately liberate the time and space to do it.
[00:06:00] Kim: Yeah. And making sure, I guess, that you're solving the right problem. The big problem.
[00:06:05] Anne: I'll give you an example for a team we worked with recently. 'Cause Monday's a day everyone likes to skip over. There's so much overconfidence that you know what problem you have to solve. So, we are trying to slow people down, in this first step, and take the time. It doesn't have to take a long time, but you have to pause and make sure.
[00:06:21] Frances: a day.
[00:06:21] just takes a day.
[00:06:22] Anne: It just takes a day. We were working with a team in tech recently, and the CEO was totally convinced that he had an intergenerational problem.
[00:06:33] That the X-ers and the Gen Z just couldn't work together. And so, they were working on all of these initiatives, and we hear this all the time about the generations can't work together and we're, we're suspicious of the diagnosis.
[00:06:45] Kim: me too.
[00:06:46] Anne: What we discovered was that they had a pretty serious strategy problem, in that the senior team refused to make choices, pursuing like six opportunities at once, and this organization could really only handle one, maybe two. And in the chaos, people were taking refuge with their own generation. Just for safety, right? Just to get through the day because there was so much going on. And so, we worked with the team to figure out, okay, well how do we create an environment where human beings and their nervous system can actually handle the strategy that you've designed. But it was so far away from where they started,
[00:07:24] Kim: Yeah. And it's so easy to misdiagnose the problem, especially when you're in the thick of it, which is why it's great to bring someone from the outside to come in and sort of take a look with fresh eyes at
[00:07:36] Anne: or at least create, create a little friction. Yeah.
[00:07:38] Frances: diving in, solving the symptoms,
[00:07:40] getting busy and causing chaos. So, the move fast and break things. Thinking that that's the only way to move fast. like, if there's collateral damage, it will somehow take care of itself, which is just a, interesting way to see the world. What we see as the greatest danger though, is really good. people who care and get it,
[00:08:00] Kim: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:00] Frances: They have been convinced that you can either go fast or take care and they choose, take care., and They go too slowly and they're too methodical. So, if you ask people in organizations, is the pace of change, like too fast or too slow?
[00:08:16] The majority of organizations, the people in it are gonna say it's too slow. the slow is really the problem that we observed. And so, we wanted to equip people with how to go quickly through the four steps that happen before you get to confidently go fast.
[00:08:33] Anne: and one of the things you need, of course, to move fast is good brakes. You know, if you don't have good brakes, then it's very scary and not safe to go too fast.
[00:08:43] Frances: And it does feel reckless as opposed to that like feeling when the wind is in your sails and you just want to take advantage of it.
[00:08:52] Kim: Yeah.
[00:08:52] Anne: Yeah, but people thought we were just talking to Mark and trying to, you know, could convince people that move fast, and break things is not the way to do it. But as Frances said, the audience. We really wanted to engage was well-meaning leaders who were moving way too slowly for the impact that they set out to have.
[00:09:09] Someone described it, culturally as a velvet coffin.
[00:09:13] Kim: Yeah.
[00:09:14] Anne: to us recently, it feels good. It feels cozy. Um,
[00:09:19] Kim: It doesn't feel good. It feels like at least for me, and Amy will give you plenty of stories about my wild impatience, but like for me, when things are moving too slow, it feels like being stuck in traffic.
[00:09:30] Anne: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:31] Kim: There's nothing psychologically Safe about being stuck in
[00:09:36] Frances: Or satisfying.
[00:09:37] Kim: it's like a productivity killer, and it's like not good for your relationships either. I don't have my best conversations when I'm stuck in traffic.
[00:09:44] Anne: Yeah. for people like you and Frances, what we wanted, we just want to give you a little checklist before you start sprinting.
[00:09:51] Kim: Yeah, before I start breaking things,
[00:09:53] Anne: and it doesn't have to take long. You know, we want you to make sure you're solving the right problem. We want you to, you know, run a smart, experiments before you scale that solution. We want you to get the right people in the room, and then we want you to tell a story about the change you're leading that other people can follow, so that you're not just running off the cliff by yourself.
[00:10:12] Kim: Yeah. Amy, what are your thoughts on moving fast and fixing things?
[00:10:17] Amy: Well, what's coming up for me is you have the story in the book, Kim, where you're swinging the lasso.
[00:10:23] and like at the end of it, everyone's like flying around all over the place. And I think I just really appreciate what, Anne and Frances we're talking about, about the trust and speed.
[00:10:33] And listening to your podcast, Frances and Anne, I see the dynamic interplay there that I probably index much more on the trust and the speed is a bit of a counterintuitive message. In the same way I'm thinking, Anne, how do you convince that person that no, actually slowing down a little bit is gonna help you, you know, actually fix things. Whereas for someone like me, you would have to convince me that moving fast is actually gonna enable even more trust. So, I think there's probably two different types of, of, of mistakes that we tend to see. And I'm probably more on the high trust, low speed side.
[00:11:07] Frances: Responsible stewardship.
[00:11:09] Kim: that's right.
[00:11:09] Amy: Thank you.
[00:11:10] Kim: That’s right. You know, it's funny, when I first got to Google, I had team of a hundred people and five direct reports. And the same week I'd been there, I don't know, three or four weeks, three of my five direct reports just moved to other teams. At Google if you didn't like your boss, you could just find a new one.
[00:11:27] Amy: Move fast and leave your boss.
[00:11:28] Kim: Yes. Uh. And I remember thinking, oh my gosh, I'm gonna get fired. And I went in to talk to my boss and she said, you know, you did all the right things, Kim, from a practical point of view, but you forgot to bring your team along.
[00:11:44] And she said, from your perspective, it was like you're swinging a rope and you're just moving your wrist. It's not violent, it's not scary, but if you're at the end of the rope, it feels,
[00:11:54] Frances: Yeah.
[00:11:55] Kim: it feels pretty scary.
[00:11:57] Anne: we give you a whole day to do that. Once figure out the plan.
[00:12:01] Kim: Yeah. so that was what we call the get shit done wheel at Radical Candor, where you have to listen, you have to stop and listen and help people clarify their ideas. and then you can debate the ideas, and then somebody, not the leader usually has to make a decision.
[00:12:17] You want to push decisions into the fact, not grab the decisions. And then you have to persuade people and only then can you start doing stuff. most leaders go right to the start doing stuff.
[00:12:29] Frances: Yeah. And, if speed is Friday the danger for one group of people is pulling that day forward and that has a known outcome. And the other one, to Amy's point that there are two challenges is we're gonna take so long to each step. Uh, and
[00:12:47] Kim: eternal Monday is not a good feeling.
[00:12:49] Frances: So, we only give you one day. You get all day, but you only get one day.
[00:12:53] Kim: one day. That's good.
[00:12:55] Amy: I would love, you know, I observed in, in both your podcast as well as what you're talking about when you're doing your consulting, this just incredible skill of diagnosing the right problem. And I just wonder like what tip might you have for someone who struggles with that? Like is there a methodology or just way of almost. Systematizing how you all think about getting to that right problem.
[00:13:18] Frances: it's a great question. So, we bring two sides of the brain to doing it. One side of the brain is Toyota production system root cause analysis, which they call the five why's.
[00:13:29] Kim: Yeah.
[00:13:29] Frances: the symptom is, why does it exist? Whatever that is, why does that exist?
[00:13:33] And they, in a complicated auto manufacturing plant, the symptom and the cause were five Ys away. And so, you didn't stop prematurely. So, whatever your symptom is, we can guarantee you it's not the right problem. Let us liberate you from that. so just bringing that in.
[00:13:48] Now we tell people many leadership challenges aren't as complicated as that, but a minimum of three whys. So that's one side of the brain.
[00:13:57] The other side of the brain comes from Chris Arduous, who's organizational scholar. all of us build on Chris's work. Now one of the reasons we get to continue our work is he didn't always write it down in an accessible way.
[00:14:10] He's given all of us jobs just to simply translate all of his things. But one of his things that's the other side of the brain is discuss the undiscussable.
[00:14:17] And that, if we know that there is an undiscussable there and our job is to set the table to make sure that it is discussed, so we bring in both of those.
[00:14:30] half the room is persuaded by Toyota. The other half is persuaded by Chris. And then we ask, what is the symptom that is bringing us here?
[00:14:40] And then we get to collectively go through it. And so that's the systematizing of it. So that's Monday.
[00:14:47] Anne: I'll offer one other thing ‘cause Monday can be really hard for some leaders and some organizations, and one of the reasons is it's, it is a very different part of the brain. Then you're using in the rest of your day job. It is about channeling curiosity. It's about asking the right questions.
[00:15:05] It's not about having the right answers at this point. We really want to get you in touch with that curious inner scientist who's not that helpful, the rest of the week, but is the part of you we need on Monday. And that's a much more vulnerable part of us. It is hard to come to the office without having the answer by the time you're sitting in the C-suite.
[00:15:26] And so we do a lot of work of just getting teams and leaders and organization in to put down the armor of judgment and give themselves permission to not know and to be deeply curious about the problem.
[00:15:40] Kim: Often these senior leaders, are really good at pretending that they know, and, and it becomes a habit.
[00:15:47] Frances: I think they would even pass a lie detector test. So, one example that I usually bring in, it's depending on the, uh, room, is that. At HBS, men were getting promoted at a faster rate than women, and we didn't talk about it. Everyone walked around with utmost confidence that they knew why, and it was wildly different.
[00:16:08] Kim: Yeah.
[00:16:09] Frances: those were all pulling the organization in different directions, and we never got to the root of the problem. Now, once we were permitted. To get to the root of the problem, you could find out like, oh, it's this. Okay, we can fix that. You can't, you can't fix it up here and so these symptoms can really be alluring that you, I do think everyone would pass the lie detector test. Everybody was stating their hypothesis is fact.
[00:16:36] Kim: Yes.
[00:16:37] Frances: and not talking to each other about it. and then that can last for decades.
[00:16:42] Anne: Frances, what's the punchline of that story? Because I think it's a terrific example of when you give yourself permission to be curious, you actually uncover solvable problems.
[00:16:50] Frances: a totally solvable problem we've yet to find a problem that's not solvable. well, at HBS there's a research side and the teaching side, I'll give you the example on the teaching side, which is that men had higher teaching ratings than women, Well, it turns out if you were, if you come to HBS and you're a struggling teacher.
[00:17:07] We would take videos of you and invite you to watch a video of yourself in order to improve. And for men, like they were eating popcorn, inviting their family. They couldn't believe how awesome they looked. These were videos of them struggling.
[00:17:26] Ah, I’m on tv.
[00:17:28] It was very helpful, and they got better immediately.
[00:17:31] Kim: and the women judged themselves harshly, and it was a vicious cycle.
[00:17:35] Frances: And they got worse. So, now once you get to peel back the layer of the onion, I'm like, alright, well then videos are very helpful, but now I'll watch the video for you. I'll figure out the coaching lesson. We got it down to like a five-minute coaching session. I could watch the video for you, help you see it, and then the women would get better at the same rate as men Incredible,
[00:17:59] Kim: That is a great story. Yeah.
[00:18:01] Frances: And importantly, the men then came back and said, wait one second, I gotta watch all 90 minutes of class. And she gets a five-minute coaching session. And then here's where we learned a really important lesson. When you make the world better for women, you better do it in a way when you make it better for everyone.
[00:18:15] Everyone can either watch the video or get the coaching at
[00:18:18] Kim: They can choose. That is so good. It's, it reminds me, so I have twins, boy, girl, twins. So, it's like a little experiment and gender differences. And we used to go to this farm every weekend where there were a lot of chickens and they would chase the chickens and catch the chickens. And my son would catch the chicken and hold it. And this chicken was terrified. Crapping all over him, like poop everywhere. And he would look at me and smile and say, this chicken loves me. And I'm like, ah, I want to be a little boy. It's like the watching the videos, that's what was coming to mind.
[00:19:09] All right, so I want to move on to the trust triangle, but can you quickly go through Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday,
[00:19:15] Anne: Tuesday's trust Frances, do you want to
[00:19:18] Frances: so, what we have found is that if I am to earn your trust, if you experience three things from me simultaneously, you will trust me. Kind of without even realizing it. And this is to me a miracle.
[00:19:34] So you only have to work on these three things. 'Cause trust is too, like I want to build trust, but I don't really know how to do it. It's only got three pillars to it. And so, if you experience my authenticity, logic, and empathy, which there are so many overlaps with your work, but if you experience these three things, you'll trust me.
[00:19:52] And every single time trust is broken. This is the important part. Every single time trust is broken between individuals, companies, teams, societies. We can trace it back to one of these three, which is why it's the trust triangle.
[00:20:06] But what's cool about this is trust can be rebuilt if, and only if you figure out which of these three it is. And don't bring an empathy solution to an authenticity problem, for example.
[00:20:20] Kim: Yeah. I love it.
[00:20:21] one of the things that I have found in my coaching practice is that sometimes people are like, you know, I'm just being my authentic self. like, oh no, you're just being an asshole. like authenticity means. Building great relationships. It means I'm gonna be who I really am, but I'm not going to ignore the impact I'm having on you.
[00:20:42] Anne: we have that conversation a lot. We'll say, sure. Be your authentic self in the room but make sure that you're bringing just as much empathy in with you.
[00:20:52] So if you're gonna dial up the authenticity, you know, 'cause the point of the triangle is you want it to be balanced. And usually that means for, for that guy, you gotta, dial it down a little bit to make room for the rest of the
[00:21:04] Frances: Or learn how to dial up the empathy, right? you can get there in either way. We, we often do think about it as a stool and that if one leg is disproportionate, it doesn't work.
[00:21:14] Yeah, no, it's, when I was working with Christa Quarles, when she was the CEO of OpenTable, we were talking about how to solicit feedback. and I was like, the question I like is, what can I do or stop doing that would make it easier to work with me? And she's like, eh, I could never imagine those words coming outta my mouth.
[00:21:31] Kim: She said, the way I like to ask is tell me why I'm wrong. Okay, that's fine too. But she said there were a couple of people on her team who found that too aggressive and so she had to be more, you know, she had to ask more gently with those people.
[00:21:45] Frances: Which is really lovely. 'Cause many people think I'm gonna develop a leadership style. No, no. You need leadership styles as we've established on this call, maybe there's a leadership style for Amy and Anne and another leadership style for me and you, Kim.
[00:21:59] Kim: Yeah, exactly. I always, I joke, you know, if you're gonna manage me. You need to move pretty far out, probably further than you're comfortable going on the challenge directly dimension. 'Cause I don't always hear it the first time. I try. sometimes I hear what I want to hear and, and so you might have to say it again even more sharply. Whereas if you're managing my brother who's a better listener. and maybe a little more sensitive than I am, you have to attend more to the care personally dimension.,
[00:22:28] Anne: Yeah, and that's the other thing that's useful about the model, the trust triangle model is when you look at your own patterns of when you have lost trust or failed to build as much trust. It's typically, you know, it's not all three collapse at once. Typically, one of the three gets a little wobbly and it tends to be the same one for each of us.
[00:22:48] Frances: Empathy wobbler here. Empathy wobbler.
[00:22:50] Anne: Shocking
[00:22:50] Frances: if I've lost trust. Don't worry about authenticity and logic. It's the real me. It's rigorous.
[00:22:55] Anne: Yeah.
[00:22:56] Empathy wobbles are disproportionately represented when we get a show of hands in, in a room full of senior leaders, most of the hands are self-diagnosed empathy wobblers.
[00:23:04] Kim: Yeah.
[00:23:06] Amy: Do you get additional sort of resistance of, well, I shouldn't have to do that, how do you respond to the person, the leader who says, like Kim said, I'm just being my authentic self and this is the culture of the organization. Like how do you actually shine a light for them that, that this behavior is actually beneficial and not a waste of time.
[00:23:26] Frances: So, the motivation upfront is that there are two myths about trust. One is that it takes a long time to build, and two is once you've broken it, you can't restore it to its previous value. You can build it quickly, sometimes in minutes, and you can restore it to greater than its previous value.
[00:23:43] But to do so, you have to exhibit authenticity, logic, and empathy. So, if you want fast and restoring to even greater. It's not enough to just think of authenticity and logic. You also need empathy. So, we motivate it at the beginning. and then if that doesn't work, when someone says that I'll pause and say, well, how's that been working out
[00:24:05] Anne: Yeah,Yeah, usually that's, that's enough. People are in a dialogue with us because they want better results. So, we are walking them through what are the steps to get to the payoff that they want.
[00:24:16] And often it's how do we go faster? And it's a counterintuitive place to pause because there is a mental model that, oh, I don't have time for this shit. And what we'll say is, you don't have time not to invest skillfully in your stakeholder relationships because that is the foundation you need to go at the speed you want to go.
[00:24:35] Amy: One of the things that we talk a lot about is how radical candor is measured not at my mouth, but at the other person's ear. And so when it comes to empathy, authenticity, like do you have an example of a leader who was able to make that shift and build trust and like not only what did they do, but how was it experienced and how did they know it landed as, as empathy or authentic?
[00:24:58] Anne: Do you have one that came to mind, Frances?
[00:25:00] Frances: usually the empathy wobblers amongst us, we're like, well, maybe we're not empathy. Wo like, maybe. And so, what we'll just say is we'll ask everyone else in the room, does that feel like an accurate diagnosis for them? And there is a roar.
[00:25:16] Kim: Soliciting feedback.
[00:25:17] Frances: Yeah, there is a roar of yes. and then that actually can be a little horrifying.
[00:25:25] And then when we equip them with language on how to reveal it, and Anne has beautiful statements and questions you can ask to reveal empathy. And here's a really fun fact about empathy. It, of the three of them, you can fake it till you make it. So, if you behave and use the language of empathy. not only other people's experience of your empathy will rise, your experience of your empathy will rise.
[00:25:52] And so we just have to get people to try. They're like, well give me a script.
[00:25:56] here's the thing about the script is. By the time you're done asking the question that you are not interested in you become interested in this complex human being in front of you who is answering the question you have asked them.
[00:26:06] Anne: You know, like it is, you can begin this journey of empathy and not be totally committed to it because we are confident that by the end, your empathy will start working with people.
[00:26:16] we'll start with the simple example of a meeting, right? And the experience of empathy wobbler in a meeting versus in our language empathy anchors, right? Because that's the other pattern, there's one of these that tends to be rock solid for you. We drag you outta bed. You are authentic or logical or empathetic. And we will just real time talk about the distinct experiences in the room. And that's often very illuminating because empathy wobblers think.
[00:26:41] it's excruciating for everybody in the room, just like it is for them that everyone's just waiting for till the meeting mercifully comes to an end and are done. 'Cause they got what they came for 10 minutes in. And so even just making that discussable and then talking about what's the small shifts we can make. And it's fun. it's playful. It's a way in.
[00:27:00] Kim: The empathy wobbler is the person who's their empathy leg on the stool's a little short maybe.
[00:27:07] Anne: Yeah.
[00:27:08] Frances: yeah, in the meeting, they got it, they think, super early and then they just have to endure. And so, we call it the agony of the super smart 'cause that's like the self or A.S.S. for short by the way, which is how they're perceived. whereas the empathy anchor, just as smart by the way, but once they get it and they too might get it early, they're spending the rest of the time making sure the last among us gets,
[00:27:35] Kim: Oh, that's good.
[00:27:36] Frances: and then when we ask them, I mean, what are you doing to go from I-centric, 'cause that's what us empathy wobblers are doing, to other- centric and they give us behaviors and every one of 'em we can do.
[00:27:49] Like they're asking curious questions, they're nodding, and then we're like, well, what's the value proposition for doing it? Oh, well, everything is better when we're all on the same page at the end of the meeting, when you know, et cetera, et.
[00:28:02] Kim: You'll actually get things done faster.
[00:28:04] Anne: we're not trying to rewire you; we're trying to bring awareness to the pattern so that you can skillfully rebuild trust when you lose it. Now, another, tactic Amy, I suspect you are an empathy anchor.
[00:28:18] Kim: I would say that's correct.
[00:28:19] Anne: empathy wobbler and empathy anchors teaming up.
[00:28:22] Frances: Like the greatest thing in the world.
[00:28:24] Anne: is a great idea, is a really great idea because we want you to be able to do this skillfully and then to have someone close to you or a close collaborator who's bringing a different wiring, a kind of what we call trust profile to the mix, that can be really powerful. And in fact, when we look at organizations that are very good at moving fast and fixing things. One of the patterns that we see is that there's often deep partnership between the CEO who is, you know, statistically likely to be an empathy wobbler and the chief people officer statistically more likely to be an empathy anchor.
[00:29:03] you look at these organizations, there is this really powerful partnership at the top and if you, look at it through the lens of trust, you're gonna see teams of people that are hitting all three of these notes on a very regular basis.
[00:29:17] Kim: And I think also it's interesting When you're really empathetic, it becomes much easier to share your logic, to show your work. and when you're willing to be authentic, you're also more willing to show your work because it's okay if somebody points out, there's a flaw in your logic. And if you don't share your logic than people can't, point out the flaws.
[00:29:41] Frances: It's one of the reasons why we don't ask people, what are you good at? We ask people in the rare moments when you've lost trust. If we went and interviewed your skeptic,
[00:29:50] Kim: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:51] Frances: which would they say got in the way? Authenticity, logic, or empathy? And by far, number one is empathy, but number two is logic,
[00:30:00] I don't think if we ask the question, which are you not good at? Nobody's gonna say logic, but when you're like, huh. In the eye of the skeptic,
[00:30:07] Kim: Yes.
[00:30:08] Frances: my logic, and then what we do, and they find this very revealing, is sometimes I have great logic. I just lose you in the communication of
[00:30:16] Anne: It's the easiest one to fix. We tell the, the, the secret logic wobbler in the room that it's fantastic news because it's not just some of the time, most of the time it's simply a communication issue.
[00:30:27] Kim: So, what do you do about, people have just said, you know, I just, I don't trust other people. I'm never gonna trust you. Like, how do you solve that problem?
[00:30:35] Frances: Yeah, so we've very, um, pedagogically teach people how to earn trust first before we talk about giving trust. What they're saying is I don't give it easily. once you have taken them through the curriculum of earning. Have a much more productive giving conversation.
[00:30:55] Kim: That's good. Um, all right. Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. I
[00:30:58] Frances: Yeah, so Wednesday is make new friends, which is whatever ideas you've come up with, which are wonderful. You've probably used the usual suspect, and so what we say is invite the unusual suspects to make your ideas better. That's what you do on Wednesday.
[00:31:13] Thursday is now you've got, an improved idea and you want it to stand in rooms when you are not there.
[00:31:21] And for that you have to tell a good story. the story has to be as if I am there micro coaching, the story has to be that good. usually, people share a story on their second draft, and you should be closer to your 20th draft. And so, it's gonna take all day, to get the story that can stand up.
[00:31:40] Kim: And you all the little details that matter. Yeah.
[00:31:43] Frances:
[00:31:43] So that's, yeah.
[00:31:44] that's Thursday. And then Friday is, I suspect, Kim, your and my favorite date. We get to go fast. And we have all kinds of like cool techniques for doing it. But if you do Friday before the Friday, you're gonna move fast and break things.
[00:31:59] Kim: Yeah. Three of your, three of your people will quit and go work for somebody else.
[00:32:05] Frances: But that will give you a lifetime of learning.
[00:32:07] Anne: Yeah.
[00:32:08] Kim: A lifetime of learning. SpAbsolutely. all right. I want to, talk for a minute about how do you do this with your boss? when you go into organizations, you're working with some leaders, with big personalities. how do you help organizations speak truth to power?
[00:32:25] Anne: Yeah, it's, it's an awesome question. I mean, often we're working with people who are fantastic at building and leading teams. They're very much aware of what got them here is not gonna get them there. In terms of you summiting the leadership mountain,
[00:32:40] Kim: If They've called you, they have some awareness that.
[00:32:42] Anne: There is a certain opt-in element to this conversation, but most of the friction they're experiencing are with their peers, or with the leadership layer above. it's a much less. Intuitive relationship, all of your influence and power is informal. There's usually an asymmetric distribution of power in any conversation, but it may not be totally clear.
[00:33:07] So it's, uncertain territory often for people who are used to operating on very certain and comfortable ground.
[00:33:15] So this is a big conversation. One place we'll start is actually to go back to the trust triangle because, it is the foundation of your relationship. One thing that is quite different. So, in these relationships we often think a lot about logic 'cause we want to, persuade this other human to use their power and influence to help us. So usually, a lot of awareness of that authenticity can get a little wobbly because in the face of power, I can get very protective and I might not totally tell you what I think I'll be a people pleaser.
[00:33:46] So that's the one I have to watch out for actually. So, I'm an uh, uh, authenticity wobbler. And so, when I lose trust, it's often because I know what you want to hear, I know what you're feeling 'cause I'm good at reading it. And so, I, that people pleaser in me is the part of me I have to manage.
[00:34:01] Frances: Not doing our bosses any favor.
[00:34:02] Anne: Which is not doing the organization, the mission, our colleagues, any favors. But the one that can get a little bit tricky is empathy. Because empathy looks different when we're managing up. It is not about me revealing that I care about you and your success, Kim. Like your boss doesn't give a shit. You know, like, um, but I do have to reveal. That I am aware of what you are thinking about, how you are measuring your success, what is keeping you up at night. And so, you know, often we'll come into those conversations. We want to speak, speak our truth to power. and we have our, you know, we have our deck polished and ready to, ready for prime time.
[00:34:42] But the piece of the puzzle we're often missing is revealing that we get it. Because if I'm your boss and I'm not feeling that you have any idea of what my life is like, I'm not gonna be persuaded by your message.
[00:34:54] Kim: I think that one of the things that can happen is often when you show your boss empathy, it can feel like kissing up. And so, so I think.
[00:35:07] Anne: And that's an authenticity wobble and that's not helping.
[00:35:11] Kim: No, it doesn't help at all. I find this is true often, that there are people who I've coached who are really good with their teams, they're really great with their peers. and their boss is like, why is this person so mean to me? You know?
[00:35:26] Frances: So That's exactly right. So, empathy the correct kind of empathy doesn't travel up. People are surprised to hear it, but we probably have an empathy wobble with our boss.
[00:35:37] And so here's like a quick way out as a, you know, well-versed in empathy wobbles. And I'm like, all right, well gimme the rule book. What's what to do? And this is something that you talk a lot about with radical candor, but the way in which we give our boss feedback really matters.
[00:35:54] Kim: Yeah.
[00:35:55] Frances: we all know the feedback sandwich is not a good idea. And that if you're gonna have anything, you need like a five to one ratio minimum of positive reinforcement to constructive advice.
[00:36:06] so here's what we're gonna do. You have to be super sincere and specific. Kissing up is insincere, but if you can be really granular,
[00:36:15] The way in which you came into the meeting and when I could see you wanted to say something, but you didn't. That really helped Soandso, like, if you can be granular, and super sincere about it, if what we know about everyone, if you want feedback to work, you gotta have five to one ratio of positive reinforcement to constructive advice.
[00:36:35] Kim: But don't count. ' Cause then you start to
[00:36:38] Frances: and don't do 'em. And don't do 'em simultaneously. So, you have to have already had a foundation of. Being seen. 'Cause that's what sincere and specific is. It's just that I'm catching you in the granularity.
[00:36:51] So if I just come in and think today's the day, I'm gonna speak truth to power, and I don't have a preexisting relationship of seeing you, it's not gonna work.
[00:36:58] Kim: Yeah,
[00:36:59] Frances: That's why you have to invest in having the preexisting when you came in and did this and that. then we're ready to go.
[00:37:06] Kim: Okay. So that's how you tell your boss the good thing. How do you tell your boss the bad thing? When you came in and you pissed everybody off,
[00:37:13] Frances: Well, I, so I think that the constructive advice, here's what we want to know, is that as long as you believe that I'm doing it for improvement purposes, and you'll believe it after the other five So when I come in and say, there is a small change that I believe would make a big difference,
[00:37:30] Kim: yeah,
[00:37:31] Frances: let me know If you're interested, I'd be delighted to talk about it.
[00:37:34] Kim: And
[00:37:34] what do you do if they say, talk to the hand.
[00:37:37] Frances: yeah, if they say that, now's not a good time, no problem. if you're ever frustrated by not being able to bring the team along, delighted to have a conversation.
[00:37:46] Kim: Yeah,
[00:37:46] Anne: John and Julie Gottman, who do all the research on couples. They reached a shockingly similar conclusion that the couples that really make it, one of the ways they know they're gonna make it is that their positive to negative interactions are at least five to one.
[00:38:00] Frances: they came together as the same numbers. It again gives us confidence that it's right.
[00:38:05] Kim: Yeah. And expressing gratitude and appreciation. that's important for any relationship.
[00:38:12] Frances: In a granular way too. Right. So, I think operational detail really matters, and it's hard to be insincere in a granular way.
[00:38:20] Kim: Yeah, if you're very specific. Like if, the other thing we say is if it's something you would say to a dog, it's not good praise. Good job.
[00:38:29] Anne: Good Girl, Frances,
[00:38:30] Amy: You know, you peed in the right place. Hooray. You know? One question that I had just before we close when I was listening to Fixable, which I, I encourage you all to check out, you shared, I believe it was Scooby Snacks, speaking of appreciation and praise. and I thought it would be kind of fun if there was a specific Scooby snack, that you would like to acknowledge for each other on how you, how you showed up. 'Cause I love that idea of just acknowledging each other.
[00:38:58] Frances: Scooby-Doo yeah. And it is the, it's the verbal treat. you can give positive reinforcement in the moment. It's actually not a great idea to give constructive advice in the moment. That has to be at the right moment. And that may or may not be, like, if the guys like talk to the hand, it's not the right moment. So, and I like, I love your question because it's really nice to do it in a, in public.
[00:39:20] We're gonna do it for you guys, not for us.
[00:39:22] Kim: a conversation like this, I experienced that you were genuinely interested in what we had to say and that you had thought in advance about what would be useful intersections of overlap.
[00:39:37] Frances: You took host energy, like you took responsibility for hosting the conversation, and then you gave us the space to have the conversation and that's a beautiful thing.
[00:39:47] Kim: And that Scooby snack goes entirely to Amy, because she is really good at preparing and I am terrible at, I'm like, let's just show up and figure it all.
[00:39:57] Frances: Kim, I feel like we must have.
[00:40:00] Amy: separated at.
[00:40:01] Frances: ancestor. I mean, I'm not even sure we were separated, but I don't prep like Ann is the one who has host energy on, a little sticky on her computer. Yeah.
[00:40:11] Anne: Well here, so that was for Amy, and Amy, thank you. we Really felt seen and valued coming.
[00:40:16] Amy: and of course, my empathy anchor wants you to give some Scooby snacks to Kim.
[00:40:20] Anne: Kim, as, as some, as someone who has to keep my eye on authenticity, one of the things about authenticity while which we're very affected by our environment, and then your authenticity. From like the story of your, the, the chicken shitting on your son and your grandmother's needle point, like all of that stuff. It was so helpful for my nervous system of inviting me in and to be an authentic part of this conversation.
[00:40:44] Frances: And to show up as you,
[00:40:46] Anne: and to show up as
[00:40:46] Frances: up as you, and it's contagious.
[00:40:49] Kim: Well, thank you. Thank you both. my Scooby snack for you two is that I love the dynamic between the two of you. It's very reassuring to be with two people who clearly love each other, care about each other, and work and get shit done together. so, thank you for sharing that with the world. It's really wonderful.
[00:41:10] Anne: It's selfishly super fun.
[00:41:12] Kim: I bet.
[00:41:13] Anne: F Frances coaxed me over to the dark side of this advisory consulting bullshit.
[00:41:19] Frances: Smartest thing I ever did.
[00:41:20] Amy: Yeah.
[00:41:20] Anne: and it's really, it's really fun, that we get to have this conversation with thought leaders like both of you and then work with organizations and host our own conversation on fixable every week.
[00:41:32]
[00:41:32] Frances: I
[00:41:32] Amy: well, my Scooby snack is, yes. I love the dynamic. I just had so much fun and I encourage you, listeners, go check out Fixable.
[00:41:40] the thing I love about fixable and just the way that you two compliment each other is that you show it is possible. We're all gonna have our strengths and our challenges, and actually like the, the one plus one gets to three with, with two of you. so, we can end on a triangle, even if there's two people. So, thank you for that.
[00:41:56] Kim: Awesome. how can people find you? I know that folks are gonna want to know more how, what's the best way for people to find you?
[00:42:02] Frances: Yeah, so LinkedIn is the best way, to do it unless you want to hear my WNBA rant and then go to Twitter.
[00:42:09] Kim: I saw some of those on LinkedIn as well.
[00:42:12] Frances: I'm starting to unveil my WNBAness on LinkedIn, but there's a rich history of it on Twitter. 'Cause Twitter, WNBA is fun.
[00:42:21] Amy: the authenticity leg is over there.
[00:42:23] Frances: Yes. but LinkedIn is the best way to do it, our podcast. And then I have started a series where I have office hours open to the world every Friday at noon. And so that's another, if you want to come and learn about a specific topic, that's another way to do.
[00:42:38] Kim: I love it.
[00:42:38] Amy: By the way, name of your book, Frances and Anne, to head people over to that too.
[00:42:42] Anne: It's Move Fast and Fix Things.
[00:42:44] Amy: You heard it here first. It is possible you can Move fast and fix things. head on over to, radical candor.com/podcast. You can check out the show notes for this episode. If you are a visual person, go check out our podcast on YouTube and Spotify.
[00:42:59] Finally, and this relates to our Scooby snacks and what Frances was just saying. We like to praise in public, criticize in private. So, if you like what you hear and see, please do rate and review us. Wherever you're listening or watching, share the episode. And if you've got feedback for us, a question for a future episode, please do email us. podcast@radicalcandor.com.
[00:43:20] Kim: Thanks everyone.
[00:43:22] Amy: Thank
[00:43:22] Anne: Thanks so much.
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Improvising Radical Candor, a partnership between Radical Candor and Second City Works, introduces The Feedback Loop (think Groundhog Day meets The Office), a 5-episode workplace comedy series starring David Alan Grier that brings to life Radical Candor’s simple framework for navigating candid conversations.
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