Difficult conversations don’t get easier by avoiding them—but they can get better when you prepare for them by getting curious. On this episode of The Radical Candor Podcast, Kim talks with Jeff Wetzler, author of ASK, about how staying curious helps us understand what others are really thinking and feeling.
Watch the episode:
Jeff walks us through the curiosity curve and explains how to move into greater curiosity to reduce misunderstandings, deepen trust, and make space for more honest, helpful conversations—at work and at home.
If you’ve ever faced a moment where you weren’t sure how to start, what to say, or how someone might react, this episode offers simple tools to help you connect with care and communicate with greater clarity.
[00:00:04] Kim Scott: Hello everybody. Welcome to our LinkedIn Live. I'm here with Jeff Wetzler, uh, who is the author of ASK and Who wrote an incredible article, uh, that has, I would say, gone business viral. Do you think that's fair, Jeff?
[00:00:22] Jeff Wetzler: I think that's fair.
[00:00:23] Kim Scott: Excellent. Um, so, Jeff tell us about what was the inspiration behind this article, The right way to Prepare for high stakes conversations.
[00:00:33] Jeff Wetzler: That's right. Yeah. well, first of all, it's great to be back here with you, Kim. Um,
[00:00:36] Kim Scott: yes. I love your book ask.
[00:00:39] Jeff Wetzler: Thank you.
[00:00:39] Kim Scott: And I was, I, I should have worn the hat on the show, but I was wearing your hat yesterday.
[00:00:44] Jeff Wetzler: I love it. I love it. You were such an important contributor and thought partner in the book. So the inspiration or the impetus for the article was really this idea that in so many different professions. People have ways of preparing when things are high stakes, you know?
[00:00:59] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:00:59] Jeff Wetzler: You know, a pilot would not, would not, you know, take off on a plane without doing a safety check.
[00:01:04] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:01:04] Jeff Wetzler: Uh, a surgeon would not do surgery without checking all the different things that, you know, even a software engineer would not ship code without checking things.
[00:01:11] Um, and yet we, in our, you know, in our fields of people who talk for a living, um, basically we go into all kinds of high stakes situations, and I think by and large, we either don't prepare or we don't prepare. Right. Yeah. Um, typically if we prepare, it's usually we line up our arguments, we get our data set all, you know, we make sure that we, you know, put our armor on.
[00:01:31] We, we have all our ammunition, but I actually think that quite often we forget the most important check, which is to check how curious we are going into the conversation. So, the impetus to the art for the article was to really call attention to the value of checking our curiosity and offering some language and some tools for how we might check our curiosity.
[00:01:51] Kim Scott: Yes. And you know, it's, it's interesting when you're talking about preparation, because I wonder, as you were talking about that I think when my curiosity has totally failed me, it's often because I've over-prepared,
[00:02:05] Jeff Wetzler: right?
[00:02:05] Kim Scott: I go into a conversation with an agenda, and that's not gonna be a conversation. That's gonna be a monologue in my experience, in my,
[00:02:13] Jeff Wetzler: exactly.
[00:02:13] Kim Scott: Is it just me, or do I?
[00:02:15] Jeff Wetzler: Well, I think that's a perfect example of over preparing within a particular type of preparation.
[00:02:20] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:02:20] Jeff Wetzler: Which, which is like kind of conventional, which is like line up our facts and the more we prepare, the more we're like, yeah, I do have a good point. Yeah, I am. Right.
[00:02:27] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:02:28] Jeff Wetzler: And so, this is trying to say, it's not so much the volume of preparation, but the nature of the preparation Yes. Um, that I'm offering to say, what if we thought a little differently about what does it actually mean to prepare well,
[00:02:38] Kim Scott: yes. Yeah. So, how do you prepare to be more curious?
[00:02:43] Jeff Wetzler: So, the first thing to do, there's just three steps in the whole process of the, what I call a curiosity check.
[00:02:49] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[00:02:49] Jeff Wetzler: Um, the first way is to actually notice what your current level of curiosity is to start with.
[00:02:56] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:02:56] Jeff Wetzler: And I would offer that, whether we know it or not. We all have a level of curiosity that we're walking into any interaction or conversation with, but quite often we're not paying attention to that.
[00:03:07] Kim Scott: That sounds very, very optimistic. Is that true or do we go in
[00:03:10] Jeff Wetzler: Well, I'm not saying we have a high level of curiosity. I'm just saying some level, some we're somewhere on what I call the arc of curiosity.
[00:03:16] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:03:17] Jeff Wetzler: Alright, so the arc of curiosity is basically to say anytime we're walking into an interaction, we're somewhere on this arc. If we are at the lowest level of the arc of curiosity, we are at a level that I call self-righteous disdain.
[00:03:30] Kim Scott: Okay? It's easy. So, I love that there is some level of CI love that. That's not zero.
[00:03:36] Jeff Wetzler: It's not zero. Right? And if you, if you hear yourself saying, I can't stand them, they're the worst. They're mad, they're bad, they're, you know, chances are that you are somewhere in that, in that first level.
[00:03:46] Kim Scott: can, can we stay on that level for a minute?
[00:03:47] Jeff Wetzler: Let's stay on that level. Yeah.
[00:03:48] Kim Scott: Because I love, I love how you say that. Self-righteous disdain. I feel like we are in the era of self-righteous disdain. I feel like,
[00:03:56] Jeff Wetzler: I agree. I Agree.
[00:03:57] Kim Scott: There's something about social media, what is going on?
[00:04:02] Jeff Wetzler: Well, no matter what you believe, where you fall on any issue or any political spectrum, the more that we surround ourselves with people who tell us we're right.
[00:04:10] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:10] Jeff Wetzler: Um, the more self-righteous we feel, um, yeah. The more that we surround ourselves with people who say the other person's wrong, the more disdain we're gonna feel as well.
[00:04:18] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:04:18] Jeff Wetzler: And so, I do think that social media can contribute to us being in our, you know, our echo chambers to reinforce the sense of self-righteous disdain.
[00:04:26] Kim Scott: but I also feel like being wrong, like why would you feel disdain for someone who's like, even if they are wrong, that doesn't mean they're a worthless human being. It just means they're wrong about that thing.
[00:04:38] Jeff Wetzler: It's true. It's true.
[00:04:39] Kim Scott: Like what? Why is it, why, why does being wrong trigger, uh, our self-righteous disdain?
[00:04:47] Jeff Wetzler: I think it's a really interesting question.
[00:04:50] Um. And I think in some ways what you're describing is the distinction between self-righteous disdain and what I, what I call the next level up, which is confident dismissal.
[00:04:59] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:05:00] Jeff Wetzler: Because when we're confident, when we're confidently dismissing someone else, we're saying that they're wrong. Yeah. But we're not necessarily saying they're bad.
[00:05:06] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:05:07] Jeff Wetzler: But I do think there are some things in our cultural DNA and in our human wiring that, that slip us from, you know, not just from that they're wrong, but that they're bad as well. Um,
[00:05:17] Kim Scott: yes. But is it because when we're in self-righteous disdain, we're unsure that we're right. Which is why we need that disdain to protect ourselves?
[00:05:27] Jeff Wetzler: I think that's a very plausible theory. I also think that sometimes when we're in self-righteous sustain, it triggers our, our fear and our fight or flight. All of a sudden, we think to ourselves, I gotta win this thing. And that's a very, small distance from they're my enemy.
[00:05:42] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:05:42] Jeff Wetzler: And from their enemy, they're bad. And so that, you know, our, all of a sudden, our amygdala gets hijacked. Yeah. And we, move out of just they're intellectually wrong to like they are a threat. And so from threat, it's not hard to get to disdain.
[00:05:54] Kim Scott: Well, and it's also like, I think that when you're not confident when you're in, insecure dismissal, uh, which is probably what leads us to self righteous disdain. You're in a fixed mindset.
[00:06:06] Jeff Wetzler: That's right.
[00:06:07] Kim Scott: so, the self-righteous disdain has a very, like, if I'm wrong, that means I'm an idiot and therefore I can't be wrong.
[00:06:14] Jeff Wetzler: That's right. Right. And so, there's an identity threat as well.
[00:06:17] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah,
[00:06:17] Jeff Wetzler: But one click up from Self Righteous Disdain,
[00:06:20] Kim Scott: one click up.
[00:06:20] Jeff Wetzler: is Confident Dismissal. And so, this is when you're thinking, I'm right, they're wrong. You're not necessarily saying they're bad, but you're thinking they're mistaken or they're out of line, or maybe they're incompetent. And if they say something that I disagree with. I will dismiss them relatively confidently.
[00:06:36] Kim Scott: Yeah. I'm not going to even bother to think about why, why, why might they believe that?
[00:06:42] Jeff Wetzler: Exactly. Exactly. I just, I'm gonna dismiss them. So then one click up from Confident Dismissal, I call skeptical tolerance.
[00:06:49] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:50] Jeff Wetzler: Um, and skeptical tolerance is when you might be thinking to yourself, I'm pretty sure they're wrong, but okay, I'll hear them out.
[00:06:56] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:06:57] Jeff Wetzler: But pretty sure they're wrong.
[00:06:58] Kim Scott: Yeah. Uh, so maybe confident dismissal is overconfident dismissal.
[00:07:03] Jeff Wetzler: We're probably overconfident in all of these.
[00:07:05] We're over skeptical. We're over self righteous in all of these things, for sure.
[00:07:08] Kim Scott: Okay.
[00:07:08] Jeff Wetzler: I call these three zones the zones of certainty.
[00:07:11] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:07:12] Jeff Wetzler: Um, and progressively moving up, you're getting a little less certain, um, but you are still in the zones of certainty. I would argue that many of us, when we are heading into high stakes conversations, including feedback, conversations, we are somewhere in the zones of certainty.
[00:07:26] Um, maybe more than we realize. And what a lot of people have said to me is just having this visual, just having these terms, starts to give me language to look in the mirror and realize that I'm somewhere in here.
[00:07:37] Kim Scott: Yeah. It's funny, the zone of certainty, one feedback that I have gotten my whole life is that I often sound certain when in fact I'm not at all certain.
[00:07:49] Jeff Wetzler: Yes.
[00:07:49] Kim Scott: Uh, and so I think it's like probably a function of going to business school where you have to pretend to be like, there's certain environments where certainty is rewarded.
[00:08:00] Jeff Wetzler: Absolutely.
[00:08:01] Kim Scott: And, and, and so you wind up. Presenting as though you're in the zone of certainty when you're not in fact,
[00:08:07] Jeff Wetzler: you may actually be more curious than you're coming across as
[00:08:10] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah, exactly.
[00:08:11] Jeff Wetzler: Yeah. I think that we could, we might come back to that and say, what? What could we do about that? 'Cause I actually think there's some things we can do about that.
[00:08:17] Kim Scott: as well. Okay, good. all right, let's get to the good.
[00:08:19] Jeff Wetzler: So, the zones of curiosity
[00:08:20] Kim Scott: mm-hmm.
[00:08:21] Jeff Wetzler: Just progressively are, um, cautious openness.
[00:08:24] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:24] Jeff Wetzler: So, when you're thinking to yourself, you know what, actually, maybe they do know something that's worth finding out. I'm not sure.
[00:08:29] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:08:29] Jeff Wetzler: I'm not gonna, I'm not saying they're right, I'm not, you know, whatever. But maybe they're, maybe they have a point here. Let me at least cautiously dip my toe in to being open to that.
[00:08:37] Kim Scott: yeah. I love that. Like at least you're like, oh, that's interesting. In fact, in fact, when I was writing Radical Candor, there was a, a person who I had worked with, uh, for years who's, who is brilliant, absolutely brilliant, and I kept sending her versions of the two by two. And she was like, sure it was wrong, and she was right as it turned out.
[00:09:01] Jeff Wetzler: Interesting.
[00:09:01] Kim Scott: And then I sent her a version of the one that I came up with, and when she saw it, she said, hmm, I would like to have a conversation with a person who wrote this. And I was like, I thought something. So I got her to the, to the, uh, the cautious openness.
[00:09:18] Jeff Wetzler: to cautious openness. I love it. One up from cautious openness, I call genuine interest.
[00:09:23] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:09:23] Jeff Wetzler: Um, and so this is where you're thinking to yourself, I, I, I'm genuinely wanting to understand their views, their experience. Even if we disagree.
[00:09:30] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:09:30] Jeff Wetzler: Even if they think my feedback is off, I'm genuinely interested.
[00:09:33] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:09:33] Jeff Wetzler: Um, or even if I'm confident in my feedback that they may have did something wrong, I'm genuinely interested to know how come they did it.
[00:09:39] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:09:39] Jeff Wetzler: Maybe, you know, to what extent did it seem like the right move from their perspective?
[00:09:42] Kim Scott: Um,
[00:09:42] Jeff Wetzler: that all of that is, are versions of genuine interest.
[00:09:45] Kim Scott: Yes. Yes. Love it.
[00:09:47] Jeff Wetzler: And then the final one, which is, to me, like the pinnacle of the curiosity zones, I call fascinated wonder. This is really when we're approaching someone with a mindset of. I'm fascinated. There's so much I want to learn from them, with them about them.
[00:10:03] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:10:03] Jeff Wetzler: Um, how amazing.
[00:10:05] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:10:05] Jeff Wetzler: And I'm not, by the way, suggesting that we all need to get to fascinated wonder all of the time. Um, I do think there's, you know, it's a beautiful human experience to be able to be there.
[00:10:13] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:10:14] Jeff Wetzler: Um, but it, but even if you know what, even if you're, if you're, let's say you're at confident dismissal, if you can get yourself one or two clicks up the curve. Um, you're better off so you don't have to get all the way there.
[00:10:26] Just, you know, every step up the curve that you can get to, um, is a little better, um, gives you more degrees of freedom in a conversation.
[00:10:34] Kim Scott: I love it. I think the, the really great thing about fascinated wonder is.
[00:10:39] Jeff Wetzler: yeah,
[00:10:39] Kim Scott: when you've had that experience and now that you have a, a word for it, like when you change your mind about something profound.
[00:10:48] Jeff Wetzler: Yes.
[00:10:48] Kim Scott: That's, that is an exciting. Cool experience, I find, anyway, it's a rare thrill.
[00:10:55] Jeff Wetzler: Life becomes more interesting.
[00:10:57] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. And it's much easier to sort of default, at least to cautious openness or genuine interest. If, if you're eager for the possibility of fascinated wonder.
[00:11:08] Jeff Wetzler: I agree. I hold it out for myself as like a north star. I may not always get there, but it's kind of, if I can orient myself in that direction,
[00:11:15] Kim Scott: yeah.
[00:11:15] Jeff Wetzler: Um, everything is, is just lighter and easier and more and more interesting and more fun.
[00:11:19] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:11:21] Jeff Wetzler: Oh, I
[00:11:21] Kim Scott: think especially I have twins who are 16 years old, and I think when they convince me that I'm wrong about something, I try to make a really big deal of it. Because it helps, not only does it help me stay engaged in conversations that might be easy or tempting to dismiss, it helps them stay engaged too, because they know it's possible to change my mind.
[00:11:43] Jeff Wetzler: Yeah. And not just to say, to change my mind and say I was wrong. But to say how fascinating, how fascinating
[00:11:49] Kim Scott: I learned something new.
[00:11:50] Jeff Wetzler: I looked at something differently.
[00:11:51] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:11:51] Jeff Wetzler: And I think as a parent or as a leader, modeling that kind of curious fascination.
[00:11:56] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:11:57] Jeff Wetzler: Um, can help bring it about in a culture as well.
[00:11:59] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:12:00] and I think it's like, in some ways it's like a positive spin on negativity bias. Like we do pay more attention when we get things wrong.
[00:12:11] Jeff Wetzler: Yeah.
[00:12:11] Kim Scott: And if, and if we can pay attention with excitement and fascination, like with the growth mindset, instead of with, oh, I was wrong, that's bad. Like, oh, it's awesome that I learned something new.
[00:12:24] Jeff Wetzler: Totally.
[00:12:25] Kim Scott: Then the world opens up.
[00:12:27] Jeff Wetzler: Just the same way when you see a kid on a playground fall down and they, and they just sort of like laugh and they're like, that was so interesting. That was so cool.
[00:12:33] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:12:34] Jeff Wetzler: You know, so fun. Like, if we can reclaim some of that and bring that back into our own spirit in our, you know, in our workplace conversations, I think it all goes better. That's all Step one of the curiosity check. It's,
[00:12:44] Kim Scott: oh my gosh.
[00:12:45] Jeff Wetzler: Just notice where you are on the curve.
[00:12:47] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.
[00:12:48] Jeff Wetzler: Okay. Step two is very simple, which is to say, decide where you want to be on the curve.
[00:12:51] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:52] Jeff Wetzler: So, if you notice that you're at self-righteous disdain, decide, do I want to get to skeptical tolerance? Do I want to get to cautious openness? Just, just use it the same way a pilot might look at this as a dial on the dashboard and say, this is where I'm right now. Where, where do I want to be operating on this? Um,
[00:13:06] Kim Scott: yeah.
[00:13:06] Jeff Wetzler: And then the, and then there, there are many different ways to move yourself up the curve. Um, there are some ways that come from the, the mind, the heart and the, and the body in it. Maybe I'll just say a word. If you want to move yourself up from the mind, using an intellect-based way. You can just ask yourself some questions to say, for example, what's the story I'm telling myself about this person?
[00:13:26] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:26] Jeff Wetzler: Or this situation.
[00:13:27] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:27] Jeff Wetzler: What assumptions am I making about this person? What information might I be overlooking? What data might they have that I don't have? There are lots of questions that you can just ask yourself. I find AI is an incredible thought partner from this intellect perspective.
[00:13:39] You can, you can dump your whole, you know, this self-righteous rant into AI and just say, help me get more curious about what I might be missing.
[00:13:46] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. The nice thing,
[00:13:47] Jeff Wetzler: what you get back is fascinating.
[00:13:49] Kim Scott: It's incredible. And it never gets, it never responds emotionally, um.
[00:13:54] Jeff Wetzler: Right.
[00:13:54] Kim Scott: Or sometimes it pretends to, but it, but you never have to worry about offending it, which is one of its virtues.
[00:14:00] Jeff Wetzler: Exactly.
[00:14:01] Kim Scott: What, what was coming up for me as you were talking is some advice from John Stewart Mill.
[00:14:07] So. When I am in self-righteous disdain, which I try not to be, but I find myself sometimes, I, I recognize it in myself from time to time, and here's what's what I try to do. Tell, but I want your feedback on this strategy. There's uh, there's a line from John Stewart Mill about the importance of discussion, and he said, even if you're certain that you're right.
[00:14:34] A hundred percent certain that you're right. There's a lot of value in arguing with someone who disagrees with you, uh, because it will deepen your convictions.
[00:14:46] Jeff Wetzler: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:47] Kim Scott: It'll, it'll help you. And, and then he's, what he said isa belief that goes, unchallenged, he said it more eloquently, but a belief that goes unchallenged becomes a prejudice.
[00:14:58] Jeff Wetzler: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:59] Kim Scott: And so, if you're not, even if you're sure you're right, if you're not open to discussing the belief.
[00:15:05] Jeff Wetzler: Yes.
[00:15:05] Kim Scott: Then you've got a prejudice. And that helps me enter into conversations with people who I, I know I'm not gonna change my mind on some topic.
[00:15:16] Jeff Wetzler: I love that quote. And I think that to me, what one of the things that is cool about that is almost that quote itself can shift you up from self-righteous, sustain, at minimum to confident dismissal. Because you're probably not gonna even have a discussion with someone that you feel disdain for.
[00:15:31] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:15:31] Jeff Wetzler: But if you can say to yourself, there's value in a discussion with this person, even if, I'm sure I'm right, that's gonna get you one click up there. And then I imagine, and this might be part of the Mill's brilliance, sometimes you might actually see something you hadn't thought of in their point of view.
[00:15:46] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:15:46] Jeff Wetzler: I mean, it might actually get you even one more click up the curve as well.
[00:15:49] Kim Scott: I, I think it can get you to genuine interest, but maybe my interest is not in changing my opinion.
[00:15:55] Jeff Wetzler: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:56] Kim Scott: But my interest is in deepening my thinking.
[00:15:58] Jeff Wetzler: Yes.
[00:15:59] Kim Scott: And so, I'm using this person who I disagree with and they're using me 'cause they're probably not gonna change their mind either. We're using each other as thought partners, uh, to, to deepen our, our thinking, uh, about something that we have no intention of changing our mind with. But there's still value in discussion.
[00:16:19] Jeff Wetzler: Yes, a hundred percent. And you, maybe this connects back to the point that you made earlier around sometimes we're more curious than we present as well.
[00:16:27] Kim Scott: Yes, yes.
[00:16:28] Jeff Wetzler: Um, and I think a lot of people, and this, you know, this, this is also the case in organizations, if there's any power difference or, um, differential in terms of levels of safety.
[00:16:37] If we try to use somebody else to sharpen our thinking, but they don't feel safe having that sharp discussion back and forth with us, um, that may not work out so well because they will just agree with us or they'll shut down or they'll walk away.
[00:16:49] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:16:49] Jeff Wetzler: Um, and so if we can get ourselves a little bit to the place of, actually, I'm interested in, in what you have to say, not just to prove myself Right or deepen my thinking.
[00:16:56] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:16:57] Jeff Wetzler: But 'cause you might be onto something.
[00:16:59] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:16:59] Jeff Wetzler: I think that can be one of the ways to help overcome some of those differences in terms of how safe people feel as well.
[00:17:04] Kim Scott: Yes, a hundred percent. Carolina has a, uh, I hope I'm saying your name right, Carolina. Carolina. Uh, I apologize if I'm mis mispronouncing, but she says the arc of curiosity is helpful to see that there is a continuum of curiosity that can be experienced beyond answering the question, am I open or closed to what I'm hearing?
[00:17:24] And I love that. I think that's true. Like, uh, you, we, we do want to be open, uh, but, but we can still have strong opinions and be open at the same time.
[00:17:35] Jeff Wetzler: Yeah. And curiosity is not binary. It's not just like, I'm curious or not curious. And I think sometimes, you know, um, we can say to ourselves or to other people, just get more curious. Um, and that can feel like a big task.
[00:17:47] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:17:47] Jeff Wetzler: That you, but if you can look at this and say, all right, maybe can you move a notch up? Can you, you know, if you're a confident dismissal, can you at least, you know, get to cautious openness? Um,
[00:17:54] Kim Scott: exactly.
[00:17:54] Jeff Wetzler: That can feel more digestible and more realistic than just to say, get curious. So I really exactly appreciate that observation.
[00:18:01] Kim Scott: Yeah. so, what are some other things we can do to move up, on the arc of curiosity?
[00:18:16] Jeff Wetzler: so, the mental ones I call head the, they're in our head, they're in our intellect. So one is to examine our own story as we were talking about.
[00:18:23] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:23] Jeff Wetzler: And say what, you know, what might be missing, what assumptions might I be making? A second is to try to envision other possibilities that we hadn't been thinking about. Like, for example, what might the other person be up against?
[00:18:34] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:34] Jeff Wetzler: What might their good intentions be? So, we can actually use our imagination to envision our way into curiosity.
[00:18:41] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:18:41] Jeff Wetzler: and then a third way, what I call expose ourselves into curiosity. And so, this comes back to the point that we were making earlier around. Typically, we don't expose ourselves to differing points of view.
[00:18:50] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:18:51] Jeff Wetzler: You know, we expose ourselves to our own points of view, but can we deliberately expose ourselves? To a different, um, set of worldviews to a different set of experiences.
[00:18:59] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:18:59] Jeff Wetzler: Who are we hanging out with? What are we reading? Who are we following? Those are,
[00:19:03] Kim Scott: yeah.
[00:19:03] Jeff Wetzler: You know, those are kind of exposure ways, um, to get ourselves into curiosity.
[00:19:06] Kim Scott: the exposure that for me at least, the one that feels lowest stakes is to go ask, uh, Gemini, you know, here's what I think exactly. Who thinks differently and why. And, and that is always instructive.
[00:19:20] And sometimes you can get them arguing with each other, like, uh, Gemini will say one thing and Chat GPT will say another and I'll ask them to
[00:19:29] Jeff Wetzler: have a dialogue.
[00:19:30] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:19:30] Jeff Wetzler: Yes. Yeah. I love that. I love that. Absolutely. So those are some of the head-based ways, some of the heart-based ways, um, one I call empathize.
[00:19:38] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:38] Jeff Wetzler: Um, and so this is more to try to, to connect, um, to the other person's humanity. Yeah, to say, you know, just like me, they are probably scared of something just like me. They're struggling just like me. They're trying to do something that we may not realize and they're just different People access the empathy route different ways.
[00:19:54] Some people just feel it naturally. Other people can do it through some kind of, meditations and visualizations, um, and other ways that can really sort of center us in our heart. Um, and for a lot of people that empathy is a pathway up the arc, uh, into curiosity.
[00:20:09] Kim Scott: You know, it's, it's interesting. I really like that when I, at one point, um, I won't even say where I was working, but I was having a big conflict with someone and uh, and I used to do, uh, yoga in the morning and at the end I would do a brief meditation and I would. Inhale, curiosity, exhale, connection.
[00:20:30] Jeff Wetzler: I love that.
[00:20:30] Kim Scott: It was very helpful. When I would see her, I would be, all right, I'm curious and I'm gonna try to connect. And even if it was just like. We both have parents, like that's some common connection, or we both like to walk or in the bay or whatever.
[00:20:47] Jeff Wetzler: Yeah, it's amazing. Sometimes I'll do this exercise with a group where we'll do something like, just like me and all these different, um, things and by the end people are just, they just naturally get more curious. Because they feel more connected to the other person as well.
[00:20:58] Kim Scott: Yes, yes.
[00:20:59] Jeff Wetzler: Uh, another, another heart one is to elevate, uh, elevate, which is to sort of notice what we're feeling. And just elevate that. a really good one, and my son actually taught me this one, is to elevate our confusion. Sometimes there's just a moment where like, you know, that doesn't make sense and so often we just skip right over that.
[00:21:15] Kim Scott: we repress it,
[00:21:16] Jeff Wetzler: Yeah. But if we could pause and say, let me elevate that confusion or that frustration, or whatever that feeling is.
[00:21:21] And let me use that as a window into curiosity.
[00:21:24] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:21:24] Jeff Wetzler: Why am I feeling frustrated? Why am I feeling confused? What's going like that? And so instead of skipping over those, those quiet moments to actually shine a spotlight and elevate them, uh,
[00:21:32] Kim Scott: and you're having a little compassion for yourself in those moments. I'm confused and that's okay. Yeah.
[00:21:38] Jeff Wetzler: And that's worth elevating. Yeah. Like my own internal experience has enough value that it's worth elevating.
[00:21:43] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:21:43] Jeff Wetzler: Uh, as well. and then there's also encouraging, and so this is sometimes people have said to me like. Sometimes I'm afraid to be curious.
[00:21:50] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:50] Jeff Wetzler: Because what if I discover that I have the problem?
[00:21:53] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:21:53] Jeff Wetzler: Or what if I discover that I am wrong? Or what if I discover that they really don't think I'm doing a good job?
[00:21:58] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:21:58] Jeff Wetzler: Um, and so there's some encouraging to say, well, if they don't think I'm doing a good job, uh, that's gonna be true. Whether or not I find that out, it's better.
[00:22:07] Kim Scott: You're better off knowing than not knowing.
[00:22:08] Jeff Wetzler: So, let me give myself a little bit of courage and say, you know, whatever's going on, I'm gonna be better off. And so, there's different ways to encourage ourselves as well.
[00:22:15] Kim Scott: I think there's two, two parts to this. Maybe, maybe they are wrong and you're better off knowing. Maybe they are right, and you're, and in some senses, if you are the problem, it's easier to fix that.
[00:22:29] Jeff Wetzler: Right? Right.
[00:22:31] Kim Scott: Like, although somebody told me that's a distinctly female, uh, approach,
[00:22:36] but I, like, I want to know if I'm the problem because it's easier for me to fix me than for me to fix them.
[00:22:42] Jeff Wetzler: Right. Right. And usually they're, you know, it's somewhere in between. They're right about this. They're wrong about this.
[00:22:46] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:22:46] Jeff Wetzler: They're, you know, and so it's almost like whether or not they're right or they're wrong.
[00:22:49] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:22:50] Jeff Wetzler: Wouldn't we rather know so we can talk about it.
[00:22:52] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:22:52] Jeff Wetzler: And actually, untangle it together.
[00:22:54] Kim Scott: Yes. And, and sort it out.
[00:22:55] Jeff Wetzler: We cannot do that if we're not curious enough to even have the conversation. So then finally, um, the action based or the hands-based way.
[00:23:01] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:01] Jeff Wetzler: One of them is enlist. So can we enlist other people to help us get so, so treating curiosity as a team sport.
[00:23:07] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:07] Jeff Wetzler: We've already talked about enlisting ai, but can you enlist a friend or a coach.
[00:23:11] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:23:11] Jeff Wetzler: Or a mentor or a colleague and say, this is what I'm feeling. I'm actually feeling pretty confident and ready to dismiss the other person.
[00:23:17] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:23:17] Jeff Wetzler: Can you help me get a little more curious? Can you help me get more open? Um, and just enlisting other people can be, you know, can be incredibly helpful.
[00:23:24] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:23:25] Jeff Wetzler: Experiment your way up the arc is basically to say, what if I were to act as if I'm more curious than I might even feel right now.
[00:23:32] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:23:32] Jeff Wetzler: So that means what if I'm, what if I ask them a follow up question just to see what I learn?
[00:23:36] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:23:36] Jeff Wetzler: What if I asked them, um, how might I be contributing to this problem in ways I don't see? I'm pretty sure I'm not. But just experimenting with that to the point where you can actually test it and bring back something, you know, get some new information back. Yes.
[00:23:50] Kim Scott: Um, so what is an example of that kind of experimenting? Like, what would you do, what would your hands do differently?
[00:23:58] Jeff Wetzler: by hands I just mean representation of any action that we can be taking.
[00:24:01] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.
[00:24:02] Jeff Wetzler: But you know, to me, one of the biggest things that I've, I was just talking about this with someone I was coaching a, a day or two ago, which is to say if, if I'm having a conversation and I feel like I'm ready to debate the other person and show them why they're wrong.
[00:24:14] Like a very specific move that you could make would be to say, before I tell you what I think. I want to just check if I understood what, what you're saying.
[00:24:22] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:24:23] Jeff Wetzler: And where it's coming from. Um,
[00:24:24] Kim Scott: yes. Yeah. That, that's the Rogerian argument, right?
[00:24:28] Jeff Wetzler: Exactly.
[00:24:28] Kim Scott: Where I'm not saying I agree with you, but I'm going to share what my understanding of your perspective is.
[00:24:35] Jeff Wetzler: And in my experience, half the time I hadn't heard it quite right. Um, or when I play it back to you, you say, actually there's more to it. Um, and so for this person I was coaching, I just encourage them to experiment with, just make that move.
[00:24:46] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:24:46] Jeff Wetzler: Make that move five times this week and treat it like an experiment.
[00:24:49] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:24:49] Jeff Wetzler: See what happens.
[00:24:50] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:24:50] Jeff Wetzler: When you do that back and, you know, I'm quite, I feel quite confident that some interesting different, uh, response is gonna come back when that person tries that.
[00:24:59] Kim Scott: Yeah, my, my husband and I were having an argument and finally he explained to me what I was saying and I was like, yes, that's what I mean. And, and then I realized, okay, and what you mean is this right? And then we're like, okay, but like, this is an interesting conversation now, you know?
[00:25:16] Jeff Wetzler: Exactly, exactly.
[00:25:18] Kim Scott: Whereas I thought he hadn't understood, so I kept saying the same thing over and he thought I wasn't understanding. And he, and then it was becoming irritating and just by me saying what he thought and him saying what I thought. Now we're, now we're talking.
[00:25:32] Jeff Wetzler: Yeah. It's that this, it is that magic move which change.
[00:25:35] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:25:35] Jeff Wetzler: It not only gets you better information, it just changes the whole tone and the whole dynamic of a conversation. So, I often encourage people to just experiment with that one.
[00:25:42] Kim Scott: Yeah. And another, another ex. Experiment. Another piece of advice I got from, um, from one of my managers once is to go and even though you have a recommendation for something, like explain why you think, but explain also the problems with your recommend. Explain the other side.
[00:25:59] Jeff Wetzler: Mm-hmm. Yes.
[00:26:00] Kim Scott: Uh, and, and that earns you credibility because it shows that you've really thought about it.
[00:26:06] Jeff Wetzler: Uh, yeah. And ironically, the research shows that the more curiosity we present with, the more that we're actually coming at the other person with some curiosity, the more they're open to influence by us.
[00:26:15] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:26:16] Jeff Wetzler: So even if your only goal is to convince the other person that you're right, come in with curiosity, you'll be better off doing that as well.
[00:26:21] Kim Scott: Yeah. And, and it's funny because I, when I, when my, when my boss told me this, I felt at the end of the meeting, like I had failed.
[00:26:30] Jeff Wetzler: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:31] Kim Scott: Because I had argued both sides, even though I had one point of view and I was like, ah, I wasn't strong enough in my position.
[00:26:39] And she said, no, that was the right. So that was an example of like, praise really letting me know what to do more of. 'Cause I felt like I had failed when in fact I had done the right thing.
[00:26:48] Jeff Wetzler: But you made a counter-cultural move because so often people get the message, show up certain, don't, you know, don't show any weakness, don't show any of this.
[00:26:55] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:26:55] Jeff Wetzler: Uh, but you know, paradoxically, it actually works better when you, you show the full totality of your, of your thoughts, including your own uncertainties.
[00:27:02] Kim Scott: Yes. Yes. Okay. And how do we exhale?
[00:27:06] Jeff Wetzler: And then the final one is really, and this, and this comes back to the example that you shared, which is that so much of our curiosity can come when our whole nervous system is just so activated. You know, when we're back to that fight or flight.
[00:27:17] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:27:17] Jeff Wetzler: Amygdala response.
[00:27:18] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:27:19] Jeff Wetzler: And so by exhaling, and people have all kinds of different, you know, 4, 5, 7 breathing or box breathing or different ways of doing anything that can just kind of calm us down can actually give us a little bit more space to just have that curiosity naturally as opposed to being a, a victim of our own, you know, overreacted nervous system.
[00:27:35] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. Um, I think also, I don't know if this is a hands thing or a head thing, uh, or a heart thing, but one of the things that I have found really helpful, especially in one-on-one, like in one-on-one meetings, is for me not to come in with an agenda. Like for me not to have the dreaded list to let go.
[00:28:01] Jeff Wetzler: Yes.
[00:28:02] Kim Scott: like how do you let go of, of your own agenda and when should you not let go of your own agenda?
[00:28:09] Jeff Wetzler: I mean I think that. One of the worst things that I think leaders, sometimes a trap at leaders sometimes fall into is having a clear agenda but acting as if they don't.
[00:28:17] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah. Bullshit is really never a good strategy.
[00:28:20] Jeff Wetzler: So, if you're thinking to yourself, I gotta come in with no agenda, even though I have one, your team will see that that will leak out and your team will see, will see right through that.
[00:28:28] So, and I think oftentimes leaders do have an agenda and so then I think it actually comes back to, say, where, where on this arc of curiosity do, do I want to be in relation to my agenda? You know?
[00:28:37] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:28:37] Jeff Wetzler: you know, if, if someone disagrees with my agenda. Am I okay to be cautiously open to their point of view?
[00:28:43] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:44] Jeff Wetzler: Um, am I genuinely interested or am I completely closed? And then sometimes a leader, you know, a leader ha, is in a position that says, here I am, I'm actually not open to influence.
[00:28:52] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:28:52] Jeff Wetzler: And I want to let us; I want to lay out where we're gonna go.
[00:28:54] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:28:54] Jeff Wetzler: And I think teams appreciate that more than acting the otherwise. But I think if you are genuinely interested, to your point, people may not realize that then I think it's quite, it's powerful to come in with your agenda and say, I've got some thoughts. I'm holding them loosely, either I'm not gonna share 'em 'cause I want to hear what you have to say first, or I'm gonna share them, but I really want to know what I might be overlooking.
[00:29:13] Kim Scott: Yeah, there's,
[00:29:13] Jeff Wetzler: there might be other ways of looking at this situation.
[00:29:15] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. You can really, if you really have a strong point of view. It's good to like. I remember there was one time where a new VP came into an organization where I was working and he said, I'm gonna go on a listening tour, which meant everybody had to spend hours and hours coming up with, You know, PowerPoint decks and he already knew what he was gonna do. Like, it was a gigantic waste of everyone's time. And, and the worst thing you can do as a leader, I think is, well, there are worse things probably, but one of the most annoying things is to waste people's time and to pretend to listen when you're not.
[00:29:51] Jeff Wetzler: Yes. And it's, but I think it's perfectly fine to go in and say, I've got some hypotheses.
[00:29:54] Kim Scott: Yeah,
[00:29:55] Jeff Wetzler: and I'm, I'm somewhere around cautious openness or genuine interest because I want to test those with you.
[00:29:59] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:29:59] Jeff Wetzler: And I want to know which ones resonate and which ones don't, and how come, and what am I, what else am I not thinking about?
[00:30:04] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:30:04] Jeff Wetzler: I think that's often a more genuine place for a leader to be than pretending as if they don't have any thoughts on the situation in the first place.
[00:30:11] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. And often when, when my co-founder and I are having a conversation, I'll say, here's a strong opinion loosely held.
[00:30:19] Jeff Wetzler: Yes.
[00:30:19] Kim Scott: Or here's a strong opinion and you're gonna have to work really hard.
[00:30:24] Jeff Wetzler: Yeah.
[00:30:24] Kim Scott: But, but I'll, but you know, it's not like I'm shut down to disagreement, but I'm wide open to it, or I really believe this, but. You know, so
[00:30:33] Jeff Wetzler: Absolutely. In our organization, sometimes we will say, if someone says something, we'll say like, you know, how strongly do you feel about that? Where are you on a one to 10? And so,
[00:30:41] Kim Scott: yeah.
[00:30:41] Jeff Wetzler: You know, sometimes they'll say, well, I'm actually a four. It sounded like they were an eight.
[00:30:44] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:30:44] Jeff Wetzler: Um, and so being able to ask that question or say about, you know, I'm actually at a, I'm outta seven on this, and, you know,
[00:30:49] Kim Scott: yeah.
[00:30:50] Jeff Wetzler: That can be helpful as well.
[00:30:51] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
[00:30:53] Jeff Wetzler: you know, just to speak quickly to your point with sometimes, we can sound more certain than we really are. I think there,
[00:30:59] Kim Scott: and we're trained to sound more comfortable, and we're trained to sound more certain. Yes. I mean, we get rewarded for sounding more certain than we are often.
[00:31:06] Jeff Wetzler: Absolutely. And socialized and I think different groups get different messages about how important that is as well.
[00:31:11] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:31:11] Jeff Wetzler: Um, one very simple way to just to, to partially overcome that is just simply once you say your piece, make sure there's a genuine question after that.
[00:31:20] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:31:20] Jeff Wetzler: That question could literally be, and I'd love to know what you think about that.
[00:31:24] Kim Scott: Yeah,
[00:31:24] Jeff Wetzler: and I'd love to know what I'm missing or what else. What else should we think about? But just adding us a question on top of the statement
[00:31:30] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:31:31] Jeff Wetzler: Can reduce the misconception that you're, that you're not open.
[00:31:34] Kim Scott: Yes, uh, LinkedIn user, uh, says, uh, and I think this is a really good point, "Dialectical behavior therapy. Uh, DBT offers some skills for interpersonal effectiveness that will be useful for preparing to approach conversations with curiosity, uh, as well as with an agenda."
[00:31:51] I think that's true. I really, I have thought about this often. I, I was in fact, for some reason, thinking about this as I fell asleep last night, like random thought, I was like, I wish that in middle school they just didn't teach history, and they just taught DBT.
[00:32:09] Jeff Wetzler: We would all be so better off if we, if we learned that.
[00:32:11] Kim Scott: Oh my gosh.
[00:32:11] Jeff Wetzler: Yeah. I know. Yeah.
[00:32:13] Kim Scott: I'm a huge believer. Um, it was like really helpful, uh, as when my kids were in middle school to do a little DBT. So huge plug for DBT? Yes.
[00:32:23] Jeff Wetzler: Same. Same. Yes.
[00:32:25] Kim Scott: I wish I had done it when I was in middle school. I got the bullshit history lessons that I'm still trying to unlearn.
[00:32:32] Jeff Wetzler: Exactly. Exactly.
[00:32:34]
[00:32:35] Kim Scott: Sorry, I interrupted you. You were talking about other things we can do, I think we have to start with you can't nudge someone else towards curiosity, right? You have to
[00:32:43] Jeff Wetzler: a hundred percent. A hundred percent. you know, these nine are essentially, you know, different pathways because different ones of us will gravitate towards different pathways. But I would argue that as a leader, one of our greatest kind of levers that we have is increasing our own curiosity.
[00:32:59] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:32:59] Jeff Wetzler: That opens degrees of freedom.
[00:33:01] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:33:01] Jeff Wetzler: And so, we need to know what are pathways to do that. Um, yeah. And also, we need to know what are pathways to help our teams get more curious and our peers and our colleagues. And so, my hope is that different ones of these pathways will resonate differently with different people. And ultimately it will be like a repertoire. And we might have three or four different pathways in our repertoire to do that.
[00:33:18] Kim Scott: And so, these are pathways to open our own curiosity.
[00:33:22] Jeff Wetzler: That's right. Exactly.
[00:33:23] Kim Scott: But what, what if you're a person who, uh, is working for that VP that I was working for who was coming in with a listening tour, but he clearly had a, an opinion that wasn't gonna change. Like, how do I, can I get him to be more curious? Or do I just, what do I do?
[00:33:43] Jeff Wetzler: This is the, uh, this is the number one question that I get when I talk to people about Curious. They say, well, I can get more curious, but what about the other person?
[00:33:50] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:33:50] Jeff Wetzler: You know, what if, what if they're not curious? Uh, and sometimes I say, well, that's a different book. Um, but, uh, but I do think, well,
[00:33:57] Kim Scott: or, or you can lead by example even if you're not.
[00:33:58] Jeff Wetzler: That's exactly what I was gonna say.
[00:33:59] Kim Scott: The more that you're bringing curiosity to them, the more that they can relax.
[00:34:03] Jeff Wetzler: They don't have to feel like they are completely, you know, hammering their point home or trying to persuade you. And so, there's, there is a growing body of research that shows of essentially curiosity is contagious.
[00:34:15] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:34:15] Jeff Wetzler: The more that we bring curiosity to them. Yeah, the more open they are to coming back to curiosity with us.
[00:34:20] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:34:20] Jeff Wetzler: So that to me is my number one sort of thought on that question.
[00:34:22] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:34:23] Jeff Wetzler: I think there's also moves that you can make. For example, you could say to the other person, is there anything I could share with you that would influence your thinking? Um, and sometimes that leads someone else to pause and say, actually yes or no. And, and if they say no, that's almost a moment of self-reflection to say there's nothing that would influence my thinking.
[00:34:41] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:34:41] Jeff Wetzler: Maybe I should get a little more curious, but, uh, but sometimes it leaves them to surface and say, well, if you could show me that our customers wouldn't leave us if we did that.
[00:34:47] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:34:47] Jeff Wetzler: Or if you could show me that this wouldn't cause this, you know, and so you could start to actually see their, sort of get a window into where they might be more curious than they're presenting.
[00:34:57] Kim Scott: So, let me ask you about this strategy that I had with this VP. I said, uh, let's imagine saying this to him. Uh, I, uh, as far as I understand, what you believe is that we should do this. Would you rather me spend the next week starting down that path, or do you want me to build a whole deck like?
[00:35:25] Jeff Wetzler: Uhhuh?
[00:35:26] Kim Scott: Do you want me to do the work, or do you want me to like to engage in this BS process of the listening to it? Like, I disagree with you, but if you're not gonna change your mind, I'll just get, you know, I'll listen, challenge, commit, or should I really engage? 'Cause it's tempting to want to skip over the challenge part if you know you're gonna have to commit in the end to their way anyway.
[00:35:49] Jeff Wetzler: It's true, it's true. I mean, I think I, I, I think that can work. I think another, you know, an additional thing one could try is to say to the other is essentially check where the other person is on their curiosity curve.
[00:36:00] So to say to them, you know, let me just check. Are you at a kind of a 10, outta 10 on this? That like, we're doing this no matter what. If we're doing this no matter what,
[00:36:07] Kim Scott: then let's just go do it. Yeah.
[00:36:07] Jeff Wetzler: Let's just go do it. Yeah. Or are you, you know, or are there things that you're still curious about? Or are there certain assumptions that if I could, you know, help us examine, you'd be open to that.
[00:36:15] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:36:15] Jeff Wetzler: Because that will actually help me know what the best course of action is for me as well.
[00:36:18] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think trying to put numbers to certainty is really useful.
[00:36:25] Jeff Wetzler: Um mm-hmm.
[00:36:26] Kim Scott: Because then you're asking the other person, like, what's the point of conversation?
[00:36:33] Jeff Wetzler: Yeah. Yeah. And I, and you know, when I was in management consulting, we would often say to executives, what would have to be true for you to feel like this is the right decision or the wrong decision.
[00:36:43] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:36:43] Jeff Wetzler: Um, surfacing their conditions using a method called choice structuring. And quite often people had never realized, have never thought about, this is my condition.
[00:36:51] This is what I would have to, you know, to believe, to change my mind. And so, then that allowed us to just zero in on say, all right, well then that's the thing we need to go investigate.
[00:36:58] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:36:59] Jeff Wetzler: Um, based on that as well. So, it can be a gift to the other person as well to help them realize this is, this is the thing that my conviction turns on.
[00:37:05] Kim Scott: Yeah. And also, I think helping the other person to understand. Like how much time it's taking you.
[00:37:13] Jeff Wetzler: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:14] Kim Scott: To do what they asked you to do because they, yes. They may be asking you to do one thing when they really want you to do another. And anything you can do to shortcut that is useful for both of you.
[00:37:25] Jeff Wetzler: And they may be unaware of what they're asking you to do and what it takes to do that as well. To be able to,
[00:37:29] Kim Scott: yeah, how much time
[00:37:30] Jeff Wetzler: be transparent about that. Yeah, totally.
[00:37:32] Kim Scott: and the other thing is sometimes, especially in this world where the bloviating bullshitter gets, uh, rewarded, they may be asking you to, to just demonstrate your confidence.
[00:37:45] Jeff Wetzler: Yes.
[00:37:46] Kim Scott: And this may be a more efficient way of demonstrating your confidence than to argue a point of view. That is, that is useless with argue.
[00:37:54] Jeff Wetzler: Exactly. That, where it's a moot point. Totally.
[00:37:56] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:37:56] Jeff Wetzler: Can I ask you a question?
[00:37:58] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:37:58] Jeff Wetzler: Um, can you share your thoughts on the relationship between curiosity and candor? How do you, how do you see those two things going together?
[00:38:07] Kim Scott: It's a great question.
[00:38:08] Jeff Wetzler: Or relating to each other.
[00:38:09] Kim Scott: so the idea of, of compassionate candor or radical candor as, as, as the book is called, uh, is, is that you are being open about what you, you think, but at the same time, you really care about the other person and therefore you care about what they think.
[00:38:27] Jeff Wetzler: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:28] Kim Scott: So, curiosity is essential, uh, to candor that doesn't fall into what I call obnoxious aggression.
[00:38:35] Jeff Wetzler: Yeah.
[00:38:36] Kim Scott: So, so you want to make sure when you are soliciting criticism from other people when you get, or when you get unsolicited criticism, uh, that you, that you are curious about it. like curiosity is how you manage your own natural defensiveness.
[00:38:55] Uh, and, and it's okay that you feel defensive when you get criticized. It doesn't mean you're shut down to radical candor. It just means you're human. It's natural. And so first of all, extend a little grace to yourself. It's okay that I feel and, and then extend grace to this other person and, and try to really take the time, use your curiosity to understand why they think what they think rather than just shut it being shut down to it. 'Cause that's your fight or flight brain. And we're rarely at our best when we're in fight or flight. So that's how curiosity can help you, uh, treat feedback like gold. And treating it like gold may mean separating the gold from the dirt, you know? Mm-hmm. Or the wheat from the chaff.
[00:39:39] It doesn't mean you have to agree with all of it, but you do want to look for, even if you disagree with overall What they said. There may be some nugget of truth in there that's very useful and so it you want to. You want to go into, you want to go into fascinated wonder, even though overall I disagree with what you said.
[00:40:01] There's this one thing that you said that is very useful to me and it's gonna help me improve. So, I think that's important on the soliciting side of candor. And then when you're giving, uh, radical candor, when you're giving praise, you may notice that someone looks upset and like you had all these good, and like, how could my praise about you want to get curious about it?
[00:40:22] Or when you're giving criticism, somebody might yell at you and that's hard. That's it's really hard to care personally. If radical candor is about caring personally and challenging directly, it's very hard to care personally about someone who is yelling at you.
[00:40:38] Jeff Wetzler: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:38] Kim Scott: And so, you want to make sure that you are, um, you know, get that in that moment that you get curious, not furious, uh, that you try to understand. Uh, why this person is so upset. Like, could you have said it better? And why? How you might have contributed to their upset. You know? Or maybe there's something that has nothing to do with you. That maybe they're upset because their dog died that morning, you know? But you want to try to understand what's going on for that other person rather than shutting down or yelling back, you know, which is, which is everybody's instinct, I think.
[00:41:17] Jeff Wetzler: Yeah. I really appreciate the, you elucidating the role of curiosity, both in the receiving and in the giving of candor to other people.
[00:41:26] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:41:27] Jeff Wetzler: And, you know, and how, and how when you, you were saying that part of caring personally is caring about what's their reaction about Yeah. And what do they think and how do they see the situation?
[00:41:36] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:41:36] Jeff Wetzler: It reminds me of when I first looked up and learned the, the root of the word curious in Latin.
[00:41:42] Kim Scott: mm-hmm.
[00:41:42] Jeff Wetzler: Means to care.
[00:41:43] Kim Scott:
[00:41:43] Jeff Wetzler: They're so good. I know to, to me it just underscores what you said. Part of caring personally um, is bringing curiosity. That curiosity itself is an act of care that can be part of caring personally.
[00:41:54] Kim Scott: I love it. I love it. What, well, that's the perfect note to end on. I, I could talk to you for another hour, but I think.
[00:42:00] Jeff Wetzler: likewise.
[00:42:00] Kim Scott: I think we're outta time. Ally said she's gonna rewind and listen to it again, so I'm glad it was helpful.
[00:42:05] Uh, ally, uh, and Jeff, I just want to thank you so much for joining, for sharing your insights. Uh, and thanks to everyone here for tuning in. Um, if there's one thing I hope that everybody takes away from today, it's the power of shifting from certainty to curiosity. So, thank you. Thank you so much.
[00:42:26] Jeff Wetzler: Well said. Thank you for having me. I love our conversations.
[00:42:29] Kim Scott: I always learn a ton from every conversation and we'll, we'll put out, uh, we'll drop the, a link to Jeff's article in Harvard Business Review into the notes. And, uh, also a link to your book, Ask.
[00:42:44] Jeff Wetzler: Thank you. Great.
[00:42:45] Kim Scott: All right.
[00:42:45] Jeff Wetzler: Great to be with you. Take care.
[00:42:47] Kim Scott: Great to be with you. Thank you. Take care. Bye-bye.
[00:42:49] Jeff Wetzler: Yeah, bye.
Follow Us
Instagram
TikTok
LinkedIn
YouTube
Improvising Radical Candor, a partnership between Radical Candor and Second City Works, introduces The Feedback Loop (think Groundhog Day meets The Office), a 5-episode workplace comedy series starring David Alan Grier that brings to life Radical Candor’s simple framework for navigating candid conversations.
You’ll get an hour of hilarious content about a team whose feedback fails are costing them business; improv-inspired exercises to teach everyone the skills they need to work better together, and after-episode action plans you can put into practice immediately.
We’re offering Radical Candor podcast listeners 10% off the self-paced e-course. Follow this link and enter the promo code FEEDBACK at checkout.
We’re excited to announce that Radical Candor is now available as an hour-long videobook that you can stream at LIT Videobooks. Get yours to stream now >>
The Radical Candor Podcast is based on the book Radical Candor: Be A Kickass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity by Kim Scott.
Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer.
The Radical Candor Podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Order his book: The Reason For The Rhymes: Mastering the Seven Essential Skills of Innovation by Learning to Write Songs.
Download our free learning guides >>
Take the Radical Candor quiz >>
Sign up for our Radical Candor email newsletter >>
Shop the Radical Candor store >>
Get Radical Candor coaching and consulting for your team >>
Get Radical Candor coaching and consulting for your company >>
Meet the team >>