Lessons from a Whistleblower: The Cost of Staying Silent with Susan Fowler Rigetti 6 | 44

Episode at a Glance: Lessons from a Whistleblower

Radical Candor Podcast Resources: Lessons from a Whistleblower

• How Susan Fowler Rigetti Inspired Me to Step Up and Speak Out
• Susan Fowler Rigetti
• Reflecting on One Very, Very Strange Year at Uber
• Whistleblower: My Unlikely Journey to Silicon Valley and Speaking Out Against Injustice
• The Cost of Silence: Lessons from a Whistleblower on Speaking Truth to Power

The TLDR Radical Candor Podcast Transcript

[00:00:00] Amy Sandler: Hi, I’m Amy Sandler and today we’ve got a special episode from the Radical Respect podcast co hosts Kim Scott and Wesley Faulkner. They’re interviewing Susan Rigetti about her experiences at Uber and her new book, Whistleblower. 

[00:00:17] In this rich and eye opening conversation, Susan talks about the importance of speaking out and not staying silent. They share important information about how to understand systemic barriers and how to navigate them, as well as a poignant conversation about the psychological and emotional impact of mistreatment at work. And the importance of staying true to your character with ways to cope, such as writing and support from friends.

[00:00:47] I think you’re going to find this a valuable and insightful conversation.

[00:00:55] Kim Scott: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Radical Respect Podcast. I’m Kim Scott. 

[00:01:02] Wesley Faulkner: And I’m Wesley Faulkner. I am so excited for this show. One of my most favorite people who I’ve read and tracked in a good way over the years is on the show today. 

[00:01:13] Kim Scott: I am thrilled to have with us today, Susan Fowler Rigetti. Susan is a novelist, journalist, screenwriter, and the author of three books.

[00:01:24] In 2017, Susan’s blog post about her experiences as a software engineer at Uber sent shockwaves through the industry. She went on to write a critically acclaimed memoir called Whistleblower. She is also the author of a novel, Cover Story. She has written for the New York Times, Time Magazine, Slate, Vanity Fair, and has been an editor at PhilPapers for nearly a decade.

[00:01:47] Welcome, Susan. 

[00:01:48] Susan Rigetti: Hi, I am so excited to be chatting with you both. 

[00:01:52] Kim Scott: So like, like a lot of people, Susan, I first came across you when you wrote your blog post about your experiences at Uber. And I had this overwhelming sense, like, oh my gosh, I have been a coward my whole life, uh, because I had, I kept dodging all these fights that I, uh, you know, all the stuff that had happened to me. And, uh, and I think in no small part, I wrote Radical Respect, thanks to that moment of realizing, you know, if Susan can do it, I can do it. So, thank you. Thank you for that. 

[00:02:33] Wesley Faulkner: Also, uh, I have to say that I, um, read your blog post and your story when I was going through some hard times, uh, at my job. And so it brought me comfort to read that. And when I reached out to you, you were kind enough to respond and so I was actually looking at our DMS, uh, over on X, uh, was Twitter at the time and just, just reminded of how sweet and caring and nurturing a person you are. So thank you for that as well. 

[00:03:03] Susan Rigetti: Oh my gosh That’s amazing. Thank you, Wesley 

[00:03:07] Kim Scott: You never know what’s, what impact you’re gonna have on folks. Um, so Wesley you had, you and I were chatting before we got on about some excellent questions you had on Whistleblower. So why don’t you, why don’t you jump in to that book?

[00:03:24] Wesley Faulkner: So Whistleblower is kind of the whole precursor for the blog post you wrote about your interesting time at Uber and, 

[00:03:34] Kim Scott: It’s the postcursor right? It came out, 

[00:03:36] Wesley Faulkner: Postcursor? Yeah. 

[00:03:37] Kim Scott: Yes. 

[00:03:37] Wesley Faulkner: Well, there’s a lot of like your background and stuff in it too. And then it’s really to, to explain about how challenging your life was and how much you worked to get to where you were. And how much agency you try to wield, but still, um, powers that be seem to be against you on a lot of different turns. 

[00:03:56] Susan Rigetti: Yeah. 

[00:03:56] Wesley Faulkner: And in the book, you repeatedly talked about how during a hardship like ASU, then Penn, and how you learned from each one and kind of modified from reflecting on ways that, or things you could have thought of and done beforehand. And then we get all the way up to Uber, where you decide to write your blog post. Um, and you ref, and from hindsight now, what are the things that, when you reflect on writing the blog post and even the book, that you have learned and the advice you would have given yourself back then? 

[00:04:34] Susan Rigetti: I think about this, like, probably way more often than I should, because when I look back at, you know, so basically I was so young, I was what, 25. Working at Uber and I found myself in this position where like all these terrible things are happening. They had this really discriminatory awful culture and I was just, you know, I had this feeling of I’ve come this far and worked so hard. Um, and they, and I thought things would be better, but it’s the same, like it’s the same sort of mistreatment.

[00:05:12] What’s going on here? And I think, you know, at that point I had been quiet for so long and I, you know, growing up really in, you know, growing up in poverty, seeing the ways that there were these systemic things that kind of kept me and my family in poverty, kept the people around me in poverty. Trying to break out of that. Then getting into college and seeing that there were also things there, administrative, bureaucratic things that kept people kind of in their place. And saying like, oh my gosh, I have to break out of that, I don’t know how, and that, instead of doing anything, I just kind of ran away from that problem. 

[00:05:52] And thinking it would be better. Okay. I just have to get to this next place. Get to this better place, get to this like more enlightened place. And it was the same stuff. It was just like more entrenched systemic mistreatment of people. And I was like, wait a second, this is enough. And the thing that was so frustrating was I felt like no one inside the company was listening, right? Like no one in power was listening and it’s not surprising, right? They were the ones who had built up and benefited from all these barriers that they put in place, and all these different things that they did, like all their different HR policies to like cover up mistreatment to protect people that they considered high performers, which is just so absurd.

[00:06:34] And then, I just had enough. And so looking back, it’s like, I really do think, you know, if I could look at my younger self and just say like, this is how it is. You can’t necessarily break it or see how to break it from the inside, you have to step out. And, um, you also can’t succeed in corrupt systems. Like there are so many times when I look back to, at things that I’m like, I was trying to figure out, you know, how do I succeed in this place where the culture is just totally broken? You can’t succeed in a place that rewards this behavior and rewards the wrong things, right? 

[00:07:12] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:07:13] Susan Rigetti: And so my biggest advice to myself would be get out, get out. 

[00:07:19] Kim Scott: Which you did. I mean, you did get out.

[00:07:21] Susan Rigetti: I did.

[00:07:21] Kim Scott: Don’t forget to quit. That was some of the best career advice that anybody ever gave me. 

[00:07:32] Susan Rigetti: And then also, you know, not being afraid to say what’s going on, right? 

[00:07:37] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:07:37] Susan Rigetti: Is because up until that point, when I was at Uber, when something happened, like I would raise my concerns for a while, but then when people, when I, when people weren’t listening or didn’t seem to care, or I would get, you know, negative consequences for it, I would just not say anything. I would just kind of shut up and move on quietly. And this time I was like, no, no, no more of that, right?

[00:08:00] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.

[00:08:01] Susan Rigetti: Like that wasn’t, I had kind of gotten to the point where it was so absurd that I didn’t care about the consequences. I was like, okay, fine. What are you going to do to me that you already haven’t done? Um, and that’s the benefit of youth, right? Is that I was young enough that like, you know, I didn’t have kids at the time. Didn’t have a mortgage, didn’t have all these things where it was like, okay, I can burn my life down and it won’t hurt me. And that was also another thing, sorry, I just go on forever, is that not everyone can do that, right? 

[00:08:33] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:08:33] Susan Rigetti: Because looking at so many of my colleagues, I would talk to them and I would say, you know, what’s going on? Why aren’t you saying anything? Why aren’t you doing anything? They’d be like, well, I’m on a work visa. If I speak up, I get fired. I have to leave. What’s going to happen to my family? What’s going to happen to this life we’re building? And those kinds of things are the things that keep people in situations that are terrible for them because they, they can’t say anything. 

[00:09:00] And, you know, in the years since, you know, I’ve talked to, oh my gosh, probably thousands of people at this point who are finding themselves in really sticky situations where they’re being mistreated, they’re being discriminated against, they’re dealing with harassment, retaliation, and then they have a list of like, here’s the reasons why I can’t say anything.

[00:09:20] And to me, that’s like one of the most important things for people who can speak up, like me in that situation, is like, okay, if you have nothing to lose, or if you can make a, you know, a list of the things you can lose and be okay with it. Then I do think there is kind of that responsibility because there are a lot of people who would speak up, but they can’t, right? Or it would come at such an intense cost to their family.

[00:09:45] Kim Scott: I think though that you did have what to lose and you also had what to gain. I think part of the, as I look back at my career, as I sort of look to myself in the mirror after I read your blog post. And I thought, why didn’t I speak up in some of these other situations that I had been in? And I also didn’t have much to lose, but there was also a lot to, like, I had a lot of unvested stock options, you know? 

[00:10:13] Susan Rigetti: Yeah.

[00:10:13] Kim Scott: And I mean, I feel kind of ashamed to admit that I allowed money to silence me. But if I’m honest, that was a big part of why I was silent. It’s like, I, if I can just suck it up and deal with this for another few years, I’ll be, uh, you know, then I can go write my novels, which we’ll talk about in a minute.

[00:10:33] Susan Rigetti: You know, that’s really common. And I think it’s, it makes like places like Silicon valley where historically that’s been like one of the biggest, um, you know, that’s like the way that you get paid, right? It’s like, you’ll get like a good salary, but then you’ll get a giant pile of stock options. 

[00:10:51] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:10:51] Susan Rigetti: That get that, you know, when you think about the value, you’re like, okay, if I just tough it out, if I just stick through it,

[00:10:59] Kim Scott: Yeah, 

[00:10:59] Susan Rigetti: Then it’ll be worth it. And then I can do whatever. And you know, I’ve heard that from a lot of people where they say like, well, you know, I didn’t say anything because I knew if I stuck around for another two years, who cares if they treat me poorly, if that at the end of that, I have enough money and it’s, 

[00:11:15] Kim Scott: It’s a hedonic treadmill. 

[00:11:16] Susan Rigetti: It is. 

[00:11:17] Kim Scott: You gotta be sure that you know when you’re going to get off that thing.

[00:11:20] Susan Rigetti: And I also think that, like, when you think about also what there is to gain. One of the things that I look at when I look at like things that I regret in my life and then things I’m proud of is like, anytime that I did something that I felt was like true to my character, true to who I want to be and who I aspire to be. Um, you know, those things are sometimes the most uncomfortable things, they’re the most painful things. But then I look back and I’m like, wow, am I ever glad I did that. 

[00:11:48] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:11:48] Susan Rigetti: Like, you know, am I, I’m so glad that I took that step. It came at such a huge cost in all these other ways. But I can look back and say, wow, I am so glad I did that. Like, you know, I’m proud of myself and you can’t, like stock options can’t buy. I know it sounds so trite, but like really they can’t buy you that ability to look at yourself and be like, okay, 

[00:12:11] Kim Scott: I am me. Like there’s not enough money in the world that is worth trading now. For I have agency like, to help. 

[00:12:19] Susan Rigetti: Also, the other thing I think about, speaking of money, is like, I would honestly pay to not be treated that way, right? Think of all the, think of like, how awful it is to endure that kind of mistreatment. And you think, I would give anything, I would give anything to not be treated that way. And you know, you can put that price on your stock options. 

[00:12:41] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:12:41] Susan Rigetti: If anybody listening is in this situation, think about how much money you would pay.

[00:12:47] Kim Scott: Yes. Not to be disrespected. 

[00:12:50] Susan Rigetti: Yeah. 

[00:12:50] Wesley Faulkner: And also they say that, you know, when you are on your deathbed, the things that you might be thinking about are the regrets. 

[00:12:58] Susan Rigetti: Yeah. 

[00:12:59] Wesley Faulkner: And carrying that for so long, um, is, takes a toll and that has a price as well. 

[00:13:04] Susan Rigetti: Yeah. 

[00:13:04] Wesley Faulkner: I bet, uh, if you like fast forward fifty, thirty, sixty years, depending on how long your lifespan is, um, you probably would have paid like three, four times as much as those stock options or grants.

[00:13:15] Susan Rigetti: Absolutely. 

[00:13:15] Wesley Faulkner: Just so you don’t have to live with that thought. 

[00:13:18] Susan Rigetti: And that was something that was like very, the non monetary cost, like the emotional and psychological cost. 

[00:13:27] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:13:27] Susan Rigetti: That kind of thing takes on people, like, I know I struggled with such severe depression when I was at Uber. 

[00:13:33] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:13:33] Susan Rigetti: And I know that so many of my colleagues, like, I had a colleague who committed suicide. I had colleagues who attempted suicide, like, sorry to bring this up. 

[00:13:42] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:13:42] Susan Rigetti: But like that kind of cost that comes with this, these cultures that are, you know, that treat people in these ways that have, you know, so much discrimination and harassment and then retaliation and covering up when that stuff happens to you, like that takes a toll. Like, I remember I would sit in these meetings and they would tell you that, like, they would tell me that, like, the thing that I was experiencing wasn’t real, right? 

[00:14:03] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:14:03] Susan Rigetti: You could only hear that so much before you’re like, what is wrong with me? Am I making this up? Am I losing my mind? And then that, you know, like, it’s awful. And people often don’t think about those kinds of costs, right? Like we can put like, okay, there’s like the loss of a job, there’s like loss of career. There’s also just like loss of yourself. 

[00:14:25] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:14:25] Susan Rigetti: Right? And I felt that a lot of just like losing who I was. And I actually, I remember so clearly, I felt like I was totally losing touch with like who I actually was as a person. And, um, I started to like every day, like make this list of like, who do I want to be? Um, Ben Franklin used to do this. He’d make a list of like, am I kind? Was I just, was I honest? And I was like, make a list and be like, okay, because those were the, that was the person I wanted to be. And it was so not the culture that was being, you know, on the ground, this company. And I felt like I was losing myself. 

[00:15:02] Kim Scott: Yes.

[00:15:02] Susan Rigetti: Like who I was and what I cared about my values. And so I started doing that and then it gave me so much courage because then I’d be like, okay, no, I’m not making this up. This HR lady’s telling me that this is what happened, but no, here I have documents here, look at this, this is true. And like giving me courage to be myself and to be honest about those things. I don’t know. I just feel like that was something that I’m glad that I fought for, like fighting for yourself. 

[00:15:31] Kim Scott: Thrilled you fought for. And you know what, you got rewarded for fighting for it as well, uh, I think. 

[00:15:35] Susan Rigetti: Yeah. 

[00:15:36] Kim Scott: Not, you know, not only with yourself, but you got a book, you got a movie, you know, you got some pretty big, uh.

[00:15:42] Susan Rigetti: Didn’t get the movie. The movie didn’t happen, but. 

[00:15:46] Kim Scott: I’m optimistic. The movie’s gonna happen. 

[00:15:48] Susan Rigetti: But it was funny because you know, I didn’t want to do any, I didn’t want to do anything around it. Because I was so much like, okay, I’ve said my thing. I’ve, you know, I wrote the blog post. I’m done. I’ve said what I have to say. I didn’t do interviews. I didn’t do any interviews until like, what, ten months after. Um, ’cause I didn’t want to be, I didn’t want anyone to look at me and say, oh, she just did it to be famous. Or, oh, she just did it to get attention or she just wanted to be on TV or any of this stuff.

[00:16:19] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:16:20] Susan Rigetti: And then I decided to do the book because people had all these stories about me, that they had about who I was and where I came from and why I did it. And I heard people saying these stories back to me and they would say them in the news and I’d hear it from reporters. I was like, no, none of this is who I am. 

[00:16:39] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:16:39] Susan Rigetti: None of this is real. You have no idea who I am. You have no idea what I, where I came from. You have no idea why I did this. 

[00:16:46] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:16:46] Susan Rigetti: So I said, okay, I’m going to write a book. I’m going to set the record straight about who I am. And a lot of places and people only wanted to hear the Uber stuff. And I said, no, no, no. It’s starts so much far, like you have to go back. 

[00:17:00] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:17:00] Susan Rigetti: Because if you just look at this, it’s just like, oh, this woman without any context decided to do this thing. It was brave, yay. We all cheer. When I’m, when the reality is like I came from a very strange background And I had fought so hard and I learned so many lessons because this wasn’t the first time. 

[00:17:21] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:17:21] Susan Rigetti: And I knew what to do because I’d been through this before and I hadn’t done that 

[00:17:25] Kim Scott: Right.

[00:17:26] Susan Rigetti: Like I had learned all those lessons and then when the when it happened at Uber I was ready. Like I knew how to document everything. I knew how to find out what the law was. 

[00:17:35] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:17:35] Susan Rigetti: You I knew how to like, I knew what to do. But that was only because I’d been, it wasn’t like I was just like some perfect person who knew what to do just from nowhere. Like, no. I had practiced in really terrible situations before. 

[00:17:48] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:17:49] Susan Rigetti: And that’s why I knew. And so that’s what I wanted to give people. Is just be like, here, this is how I learned, right?

[00:17:55] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:17:56] Susan Rigetti: Read where I came from so that you can see how I got to this point. And to me, that I hope is helpful to people because that’s the only way I can explain it. Because then when people say well, how did you know what to do? It’s like well, this thing happened when I was younger and this thing happened and this thing happened and from each one of those I learned these different pieces, that otherwise I wouldn’t have known how to do.

[00:18:20] Wesley Faulkner: One, one of the things about the book, um, you, you talk about your journey and your, and how much you had to like teach yourself, even when your mom had to go to work. 

[00:18:37] Susan Rigetti: Yeah. 

[00:18:37] Wesley Faulkner: And you had to find your own way. Um, but one of the other things is like, unfortunately, some of your coworkers didn’t make it because of the mental stress. 

[00:18:47] Susan Rigetti: Yeah.

[00:18:47] Wesley Faulkner: And, but you found outlets, you found ways to, uh, kind of supplant that gaslighting, the assault on you at work, by finding your own way of soothing yourself with friends and, uh, with, uh, Chad, um, but also with writing. One of the questions that I had that I was hoping to get an answer to is that you alluded that you’re writing a sci fi novel. 

[00:19:11] Susan Rigetti: Yes.

[00:19:11] Wesley Faulkner: But I haven’t seen it. Is it coming out? What is it about? What can you share about it? 

[00:19:17] Susan Rigetti: So it’s written. I just have to find someone to publish it. 

[00:19:22] Kim Scott: Fiction is so hard. Well, I would love to read it. Uh, Wesley and I will be your readers.

[00:19:27] Susan Rigetti: Okay, I’ll send it to you. I’ll send it to you and then you can tell me what you think. But I’ve learned, you know, growing up and writing, and then, now, like, you know, making my living as a writer. I always thought until I actually became a writer that, oh, writing is the hard part. But then you realize, no, it’s everything else around the writing that’s the hard part, right? Like, you can have this ideal thing, this book, this story, you can finish it, but like, you gotta have it marketed, and you gotta find the right publisher, and you gotta find the right everything, and it all has to come together. And a lot of the times it doesn’t, so you just gotta stick through it and just keep going. 

[00:20:03] Kim Scott: Yeah, I have three novels, uh, and a stack of rejection letters for my three novels. It’s, writing fiction is really hard, you know, even.

[00:20:15] Susan Rigetti: It’s hard, right?

[00:20:16] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah, but you did get Cover Story, right? 

[00:20:18] Susan Rigetti: Yes. 

[00:20:19] Wesley Faulkner: Cover Story is great. 

[00:20:20] Susan Rigetti: Oh, thank you. 

[00:20:20] Kim Scott: I love Cover Story. 

[00:20:22] Susan Rigetti: Oh, thank you. I had so much fun writing that one. I had a blast. 

[00:20:26] Wesley Faulkner: I was just talking about it. 

[00:20:27] Kim Scott: Go ahead. Wesley, confess how you felt. 

[00:20:30] Wesley Faulkner: The ending, the twist. Really? I won’t spoil it, but it’s just like, it left me with a sense of, I’ll just say I was a little bit angry. 

[00:20:42] Susan Rigetti: I’m sorry. 

[00:20:47] Wesley Faulkner: I was like, I was rooting for you. Uh, but yeah, uh, yeah, it’s, it was good in that, that you definitely elicited a lot of emotions throughout, but very strong at the end of the novel.

[00:21:00] Susan Rigetti: That was one of the reasons it was so much fun to write, because like, I had, there were like two narratives that are being told, right? The one that you want the reader to create in their head, and then the one that they’ll go back and read and just be like, wait a second. Now I see what that means. It was really fun.

[00:21:18] Kim Scott: I think that’s part of what happened, I mean, I think it’s part of our system, because our system is telling us that, you know, you just do good work and you’ll get rewarded. 

[00:21:27] Susan Rigetti: Yeah. 

[00:21:27] Kim Scott: And of course that’s a bunch of BS. 

[00:21:28] Susan Rigetti: Yeah, exactly. It is. It’s all lies. Like that’s never true anywhere. 

[00:21:35] Kim Scott: Um, I mean, sometimes it’s true some places, but that is not by and large, the system rewards, you know, those born on third base, full stop, you know. 

[00:21:45] Susan Rigetti: Yeah.

[00:21:45] Wesley Faulkner: But the sad part is also the people who are born on third base believe it and it’s a lie. And they’ll perpetuate the lie. But also they will blame other people when they don’t see them succeeding. 

[00:21:57] Susan Rigetti: Yeah.

[00:21:57] Wesley Faulkner: Or if they’re, it’s just, oh, well, just apply for a job, you’ll get one or just.

[00:22:04] Kim Scott: Yeah, it’s not so easy. Yeah. 

[00:22:07] Wesley Faulkner: Yeah. That they really don’t understand about what the real and true problems are and the goals in the system. Which means that the people who have some of this privilege, some of the most power are not incentivized to fix it. 

[00:22:19] Susan Rigetti: Yeah, of course. ‘Cause they’re benefiting from it, right? Even if they don’t realize it. And also I think that a lot of people in that situation are in denial, right? Because like, no one wants to admit to themselves, well, I actually, you know, got here because of specific things that I didn’t really earn or didn’t work for. And no one wants to undermine their own success, right? 

[00:22:41] Wesley Faulkner: Yes. 

[00:22:42] Susan Rigetti: And that reminds me of something that I do think about, like when I’m in situations that are kind of dire or intense. Which is like, okay, what are the barriers here? Like, what are the things that I don’t see that are making this situation tough for me or tough for others, right? So that’s another thing is that I often do, especially since the, um, since the Uber blog post, like people come to me and they ask for advice and I try as much as I can to help them. Sometimes I’m stumped because I’m like, I don’t know. And then, so I have to think like, okay. What are the barriers here? What are the things that are keeping, the systemic things that are keeping this person in this position where they are being treated this way or where they can’t improve their life or where they don’t know what to do and they’re stuck, and there are so many things and I feel like, 

[00:23:34] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:23:35] Susan Rigetti: Being able to see as much as you can and be, keep your eyes open to what are the things that are keeping us in these places and what are the things that are keeping us in, you know, places of, you know, where we can’t get ahead, where we can’t, where we are being stuck. It’s just like, it’s so it’s all systemic, right? 

[00:23:53] Kim Scott: Yes.

[00:23:53] Susan Rigetti: It’s never individual stuff. 

[00:23:55] Kim Scott: And I think that was one of the things when I very first met you, do you remember you came to my house and we lunch and, 

[00:24:01] Susan Rigetti: Yes, yes. 

[00:24:02] Kim Scott: I asked you, I said, and I think for folks out there who want to figure out how to speak truth to power without blowing up their careers. You gave such good advice. I said, why did you keep reporting to HR when you knew that they weren’t going to help you? And you were like, that was the whole point. 

[00:24:20] Susan Rigetti: Exactly. 

[00:24:20] Kim Scott: So explain to folks, what you explained to me. ‘Cause that was how you identified what the systemic barriers were to you succeeding in this situation.

[00:24:29] Susan Rigetti: Yes. To put this simply, if you do not report to HR things that are happening, then you cannot legally hold them accountable, right? So a lot of people will say, and you hear this all the time, it’s like, well, why would you go to HR? They’re not your friend. Doesn’t matter. Doesn’t matter. Because if you need to keep a record of you reporting things to them and them not following through. And then you can actually, then you can actually have legal standing to go and do something about it. Otherwise, there’s no record. Right?

[00:24:58] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:24:58] Susan Rigetti: If you’re not reporting stuff, you, ’cause you legally have to give them the chance to fix something and alert them to it. Otherwise they can’t be held accountable. So I feel like that’s like, that’s the most important thing that you can do, is understand these are the rules of this, whatever structure I’m in, whatever bureaucracy that I’m in, here are the rules I have to follow to get like, just to even to hold them accountable. 

[00:25:24] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:25:24] Susan Rigetti: There are these rules like with the HR thing. And I reported things to HR so often, always be told the same thing. Oh, this is their first offense. Oh, blah, blah, blah. This has never happened before. And I was just like, okay, keep saying it. Keep saying it ’cause clearly it’s not the first time ’cause I’ve already reported it a million times before. And that’s ultimately what helped me. And, but I had learned that. 

[00:25:45] Kim Scott: Yes. 

[00:25:46] Susan Rigetti: From when I was at Penn. 

[00:25:47] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:25:47] Susan Rigetti: I had learned that from when I was at Penn. And when they were telling me all these things and I was calling lawyers and saying, what do I do? And oh, here’s how you document things. 

[00:25:55] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:25:55] Susan Rigetti: Here’s how you know, here’s how you find out what law applies to, which employment laws apply to you. Yeah, I think that’s like, that’s the critical thing, right? Is like, and it comes back to saying as simple as just like, know what your legal rights are. 

[00:26:09] Kim Scott: Yes.

[00:26:09] Susan Rigetti: And just figure out. 

[00:26:13] Kim Scott: Yeah. It’s, and I think that, so two other important things for folks. One is like, you’ve said a bunch documentation and, 

[00:26:20] Susan Rigetti: Yeah.

[00:26:20] Kim Scott: Like for you and me, we love to write. Wesley has told me several times he doesn’t love to write. Like, so for folks who don’t love to write, uh, what’s a good way to document? What’s, because you did an excellent job keeping the receipts. So how do you keep the receipt? 

[00:26:35] Susan Rigetti: Screenshot everything.

[00:26:37] Kim Scott: Yes. 

[00:26:38] Susan Rigetti: Screenshot everything. Because even when I get tired of documenting stuff, I’ve got a pile of screenshots. And honestly, those screenshots are really what come in handy the most because it’s like you can’t argue with something. So what I learned over the years is like, and this is what I tell everyone is like, if somebody sends you something, that’s very not okay in some way, or you’ve got something going on the back of your head, that’s like, this isn’t right, this isn’t right. Screenshot it. 

[00:27:04] If they say something in person and you’re like, wait a second, did they really just say that? What do I do? How is it, how do I avoid this becoming a, he said, she said thing. You sit down, you write an email, you say, hey, just to clarify, we just had a conversation. You said this, give them a chance to say whatever they want to say. They might say, I never said that, whatever. But document what, whatever they said. And then the other thing is like, if you have a company email, people are going to hate me for this at all the IT organizations. Don’t ever log into it on your personal computer, but definitely forward all that documentation, all those screenshots, all those emails to your personal email. 

[00:27:49] Kim Scott: Yes.

[00:27:49] Susan Rigetti: Because you’re going to need it. ‘Cause they’re going to shut off your company work email and your chat access. And you’re going to have nothing to do. So that’s really it, it’s just like document, put things in writing, you can take notes. Notes are evidence. If you have a weird meeting, just jot down or screenshot or send them an email. And it’s like one of those things. And that’s what you got. 

[00:28:12] Wesley Faulkner: Those are great tips, and I wish we could talk forever, but I know we’re short on time, and we have to let you go. But one of the things in your book, is that you mentioned your dad and your mom as really great examples. And you also talk at the beginning of the book about that your daughter, hopefully she comes into a world that she doesn’t recognize.

[00:28:30] Um, and so if you’re looking for ideas for your next book, I would love for you to be able to distill your knowledge, and how now being a mother for this amount of time, how much, what you’re passing on to the next generation to try to change the world. But thank you so much for being on the show and we really, really appreciate you.

[00:28:47] Susan Rigetti: Thank you so much. It’s so wonderful. And you know what? I’ll come on again if you ever, if you ever want. 

[00:28:52] Kim Scott: We would love it. Yes, Let’s keep talking. I love, love this conversation. Thank you so much Susan. 

[00:28:58] Susan Rigetti: Thank you so much Wesley and Kim. It’s so good to see you.

[00:29:02] Kim Scott: Great to see you. Take care everybody, and we’ll see you next week. 

[00:29:07] Amy Sandler: The Radical Candor Podcast is based on the book, Radical Candor: Be a Kick Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity by Kim Scott. Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal, with script editing by me, Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff, and is hosted by me, still Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn, Radical Candor, the company and visit us at RadicalCandor.com.

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Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer.

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