While the podcast team is on a Radical Sabbatical, Kim Scott is spending the season talking to authors of the books that have shaped her thinking. This week: Tiffani Bova, whose latest book The Experience Mindset argues that you can't fix the customer experience without fixing the employee experience first.
On this episode of the Radical Candor Podcast, Kim talks with Tiffani Bova about why so many companies get this backwards, what "Undercover Boss" reveals about the disconnect between executives and employees, and why training managers — not just employees — is the real lever for change.
Watch the episode:
Bova's research keeps landing on the same finding: companies that focus exclusively on customer experience are starting at the wrong end of the problem. The employee experience has to come first, and the customer experience follows from it. Kim and Tiffani talk through why so many leaders get this order backwards, and why self-reflection and honest feedback are the starting point for fixing it.
Tiffani and Kim use the show "Undercover Boss" as a real-world illustration of what happens when executives finally see the friction their own employees face every day. The gap between what leadership assumes and what's actually happening on the ground is often bigger than anyone in the C-suite expects — and closing it starts with actually asking, and listening.
A recurring theme in the conversation: workplace irritations pile up not because employees don't care, but because managers aren't trained to notice or fix them. Kim and Tiffani discuss why management training, not just employee training, is where organizations get the most leverage — and how streamlining processes can free up real productivity.
The conversation closes on automation and AI: where technology genuinely optimizes the employee experience, and where it just adds another layer of tech overload. Tiffani and Kim discuss the importance of keeping the human element central to technology adoption, and how a cohesive company culture is what ultimately aligns incentives around growth and innovation.
[00:01] Kim Scott: Hello everybody and welcome to the Radical Sabbatical. I am Kim Scott, and while the rest of the Radical Candor team is on sabbatical, I am talking to the authors of the books that have meant a lot to me. And I'm thrilled to have with me today Tiffany Bova, author of the Experience Mindset. I'm putting it on my book because I'm listening. I love your book, Tiffany, so much. So welcome. I I feel like if everybody can put the ideas in your book into place, it's not just that their companies will be more successful, the whole world will s you've solved all the world's problems with this book. It's a big book. Yes.
[00:33] Tiffani Bova: Well, thank you.
[00:47] Tiffani Bova: think i don't think so but i i'd solve some of my own i solved some of my own how about that
[00:54] Kim Scott: All right, for those of you who don't know Tiffany, Tiffany has spent nearly 30 years inside some of the biggest evolutions in tech. as Salesforce's former growth and innovation evangelist, research fellow fellow at Gartner, and now Chief Strategy and Research Officer at Futurap Group. So thrilled to be here with you talking about your book. One of my favorite parts of your book is how you open it. I mean you've written more than one book, but but today we're we're we're talking about the experience mindset. but one of the things that I really love is that you offer yourself some critical feedback as you open as you open up the experience mindset about about how you failed to write as much in the past as you wish you had about the impact of the employee experience on the customer experience. So say say more about that.
[01:51] Tiffani Bova: Yeah, I I was radically I was radically honest with myself.
[01:54] Kim Scott: Yeah, yes, you're radically candid.
[01:57] Tiffani Bova: It was self-awareness and radically candid simultaneously. So my first book, Growth IQ, was the sort of like a culmination of my practitioner operational experience, right? Running sales, marketing, and service in tech, then 10 years at Gartner, right? Advising startups all the way to the largest, you know, number one largest tech company in the world. And I I felt like I had a good handle. Like, right? I felt like I had a good handle on it.
[02:10] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[02:22] Kim Scott: Yeah. To put it mildly.
[02:26] Tiffani Bova: I never believe I knew everything, I mean, obviously, but I felt like I had a good handle on it. And I really spent time on what are the buckets of ways to grow. And after thousands of conversations and literally, right, you know, over the course of a decade, I felt like I'd landed on the 10. And the very first one was customer experience. It was like I was part of the team that made the prediction that the CMO would spend more on tech than the CIO back in 2008. And when we said that, everyone thought we were crazy.
[02:28] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[02:42] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[02:50] Kim Scott: Right.
[02:54] Kim Scott: And you are right. Right.
[02:54] Tiffani Bova: But Microsoft, Salesforce, you know, SAP, Oracle, others all went out and bought technology companies to get their hands on that marketing spend that CMOs were now going to be spending. And it was not for technology, it was really about this customer experience. Right? And so I was, I was all in. Like this, this is it. So it was my number one path. I started there, right? whole nine yards. And then I started working at Salesforce. And then I was standing on stage one day and I said,
[03:02] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[03:09] Kim Scott: Right.
[03:24] Tiffani Bova: I didn't think it was a coincidence that at the time, when I say we, right, at the time, we were one of the best places to work globally, one of the innum most innovative companies in the world and the fastest growing enterprise software company. I didn't think that was a coincidence, so I went to our CMO and I said, Could I prove this? And that sort of put me down this path of all the research we did for experienced mindset. Well, now I'm like three months, four months into it, and I'm like, my God, right? I go back to growth IQ.
[03:28] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[03:50] Tiffani Bova: And I'm like, let me just do a quick search. How many times did I say the word employee? And I'm like, wah. You know what I mean? Like, not as many as I thought I, you know, I should have had, considering I thought I had it nailed. So this was kind of a mea culpa I had no intention, as you know, Kim, like to write another book. It was not like on my bucket list. and then I found myself with this information and I said, I I would be, I would be remiss that I
[03:52] Kim Scott: Right. Yeah. Not as many as you had wished. Yeah.
[04:10] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
[04:18] Tiffani Bova: I I needed to go back and do this mea culpa. So that was the story of the self reflection of this is kind of the eleventh path that I didn't write in the first book. Yeah.
[04:28] Kim Scott: Right, right, right. And you have such a good you have such a love a good framework and you have a great framework at the core of your book, showing sort of how people, process, technology, and culture all combine to create this experience mindset. So so let's just let's walk through it. Let's start with with people. you you have this incredible stat that of course caught my eye. Eighty seven percent of executives don't know what to do. with the employee feedback that they collect. and and employees who give feedback that goes nowhere conclude that that their executives don't listen or don't care or both. so what what is going on?
[05:11] Tiffani Bova: Yeah, so let me let me qualify a little bit. I am not a people expert, so I look at people at in a very specific lens at the moment that matters when a employee touches a customer in some way. Well, you the obvious are sales marketing service, right? But it could be a web designer because you're touching a customer via a digital, you know, website or an app. It could be the packaging team that builds the the package for a product you've built. Like that all touches a customer. So don't just think customer facing. So
[05:15] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[05:18] Kim Scott: Right. Mm. Right. Right. Right. Yeah.
[05:38] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
[05:40] Tiffani Bova: I focused on that moment that matters. So now let me go back, right, to what you just asked. That you are correct, that people feel like, leaders feel like when they do these surveys, that they're satisfying that, well, we do a survey, like, right? And they tell us, and I'm like, okay, well, what did you do with it? And I was shocked at the answer, but then I always, and I use this in the book, I used it in both books actually.
[05:43] Kim Scott: Okay.
[05:53] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. What did you do with that? Yeah.
[06:06] Tiffani Bova: I use the undercover boss television show as just my reality check. That there is a perfect live example of you do you I I'm guessing they all do surveys, you know, and I'm sure that their employees are telling them these things. And so people want to feel heard, they want to feel like their opinion matters, they want to feel like ideas can come from anywhere. And I think this was my way of showing these.
[06:08] Kim Scott: I love this. Yeah. So
[06:21] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[06:31] Tiffani Bova: Very illuminating statistics from the research. And this was global, by the way, regardless of size and region and industry. So this is not just a US thing or a, you know, Europe thing or it it is it was global. Some countries were better than others, but for the mean, it was not a good look.
[06:36] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah.
[06:48] Kim Scott: Yeah. So the under s say exp expla I love the undercover CEO. Ex so explain for folks who are not familiar what that what happened in that story.
[06:58] Tiffani Bova: Yeah, so under Undercover Boss is a US show and I a UK show and I don't know if it's in Canada and other places, but I know it's it's in the US and the UK. And the whole concept is, right, a CEO does something shocking. They leave their office and they wander amongst the people in the wild.
[07:11] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yes. And yeah, and they experience the truth first hand. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
[07:21] Tiffani Bova: They are at the edges, and everything happens at the edge. Growth happens, think about an iceberg. Growth happens at the edge, it melts at the edge. So, right? So the edge is the people, the front lines that could be, depending how big you are, right? They could be a hundred levels below the CEO, they could be two levels below the CEO, right? But as companies get bigger, leaders get further and further away from the edge. And so Undercover Boss does this.
[07:31] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah.
[07:46] Kim Scott: Yes.
[07:49] Tiffani Bova: You know, they put on a disguise of the CEO in the first three or four minutes of very expensive prime time US television. And and I'm like, it's such a waste because no one would recognize them anyway, because they never leave their office, right? But the whole concept is that they go out and talk to the people. They mop the floors and clean the toilets and empty the trash and use the technology and use the app and organize the, you know, the the utility closet and you know go through the inventory and
[07:59] Kim Scott: Right, right. Right.
[08:05] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[08:17] Tiffani Bova: You know, they do all these things that they probably have never done. Now, some CEOs have moved up the ranks like through the company over you know decades. That's less common today, right? So normally people are bouncing around, and once they get to leadership, they rarely go back down, right? And so for me, I think the the management by wandering around, which is Tom Peters in in search of excellence.
[08:25] Kim Scott: Right. Yeah, yeah.
[08:34] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[08:40] Kim Scott: Yes. And also Abraham Lincoln, I think, was was a proponent, yes.
[08:44] Tiffani Bova: It a a little bit as well, right? And that and Tom used it from Bill Hewitt from Hewlett Packard, like with that he would go to the manufacturing plant. So you hear Ford say those things. Costco, Southwest, where these CEOs are like always out. They're out, right? And so it sends multiple messages. I get I get to have a conversation with the CEO. They they heard me, they listened, and maybe even action something that was my suggestion. I'm all in. Like when times get tough and they ask me to
[08:49] Kim Scott: Right.
[09:04] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[09:09] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
[09:13] Tiffani Bova: buckle up and work a little longer or pick up an extra shift, I'm in. I'm committed. I'm aligned. I believe you you you had me at hello, right? Yeah.
[09:16] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so good. It's it's really interesting. One of the one of the things that I when I was at Google that I would struggle to do is make sure that I was still answering customer, but I managed a team that did a lot of things, but chief among them was customer support work. That I was actually answering some tickets. And and that was important because I then when people came to me with suggestions understood why it mattered because I had struggled with y so when somebody came to me and said, We need programmable keypads, I understood why they needed programmable keypads. but the the other thing that happened when I did that was that some somebody came up to me and very kindly and gently said, Kim, you know, I wish you'd quit grabbing tickets because you're not doing a good job answering them.
[09:52] Tiffani Bova: Yep. Yep.
[10:17] Kim Scott: And and you're hurting my my you know, you're hurting my customer s customer satisfaction metrics. And so it you know, it's important I think to go in and be humble, but to figure out like w how what what would you have advised me in that situation? Like should I stop doing the tickets? Should I have my own queue? So
[10:36] Tiffani Bova: Well, I would I would almost take it as a learning moment. So let's just say you were a regular employee and the answers weren't very good. Like what is the pro so I would go, okay, I hear you, thank you, but what is my what is my way forward? Like what would be if I were an you know, if this were my job, right? Because clearly you were jumping in, which which I love, but it wasn't your day job. I I I agree that it has value.
[10:44] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[10:50] Kim Scott: Yeah, for the f yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yes.
[11:01] Kim Scott: No.
[11:05] Tiffani Bova: But then you know you could have said, so what would that what would happen if I were, this was my job and quality was low? What's the next step? Like, do you put me through a training? Do I have to shadow people? Like, let me do that, right? Like, so you just kind of keep going down the process, which I think goes back to this. How would a leader know if you just stop doing it? Then what you've just said is if someone isn't doing a good job, the company would just fire them. Now, maybe that is
[11:10] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah.
[11:19] Kim Scott: Yes.
[11:27] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[11:34] Tiffani Bova: In fact, true, I don't know, right? But the point being that you would have learned more had you said, Tell me more. How can I get better? Like what can I do? Yeah. Correct. Correct.
[11:41] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, ca then I could have learned about the training. What how do you how because it's like not n these things are very rarely common sense. You you need you need to learn how to answer the questions correctly. you need training. and so let's talk for a minute about training. You have one of one of the quotes that you have that I love is some some leader will say, Well, what if I pay
[11:56] Tiffani Bova: Yep. Yep.
[12:10] Kim Scott: To train them and then they leave. And what is your response to that? Yes, exactly. That is the right answer because they're not doing as good a job as they could be doing if you would invest in them.
[12:14] Tiffani Bova: What if you don't train them and they stay? Yeah.
[12:27] Tiffani Bova: Well, just like your example.
[12:29] Kim Scott: Yeah. Like I wasn't I wasn't I I was very well meaning, but I wasn't doing a good job answering the questions 'cause I hadn't been properly trained.
[12:30] Tiffani Bova: So
[12:38] Tiffani Bova: Okay, so you could have kept going and provided really bad customer service and or you could have gotten trained, right? And now you could they could say, well, I we want to hire people that are already trained. It's like, okay, well, you might be able to hire a customer service rep from another company and then you're hiring them for a customer service role in your company. But that doesn't mean they're gonna do a good job in your company because that's right.
[12:40] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Yeah, or I could have gotten trained.
[12:52] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[13:02] Kim Scott: Yeah, they didn't know the AdSense product. Like you have to learn it, you know.
[13:05] Tiffani Bova: You have to learn it, right? And you don't know our systems and you don't know our processes, you don't know our escalations and our approvals and you don't know our billing system. Whatever, it is not the same and and they don't know your customers.
[13:09] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[13:18] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And and that needs all that needs to be trained.
[13:20] Tiffani Bova: Right? So All that needs to be trained. And when I was selling technology, I will tell you that was, I was just having this conversation with someone. That was the number one budget line item that would get cut when we were selling very large technology transformations. You know, it could be million dollar, like you know, some software, right, for the legal industry or some, you know, this is back in the you know late 90s, early 2000s. We were selling things, and I was selling multi-million dollar projects or half a million dollar projects, and then it might be.
[13:41] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[13:51] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[13:52] Tiffani Bova: 50,000 to 200,000 in training, that would always get cut. And then they would come back to me and be like, gosh, we're just not seeing the ROI. You know, Tiffany, everything you said that our attorneys or our whatever would be able to do, they're not doing. I'm like, well, have they been trained? Well, yeah, we we gave them a half an hour, you know, lunch and learn. I'm like, okay. We you've just asked them to completely change the way they work. They've manually tracked hours for some of them decades.
[13:57] Kim Scott: Yes, yeah.
[14:06] Kim Scott: Did you train them?
[14:12] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[14:19] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[14:19] Tiffani Bova: And now you're telling them to push in their phone the client number and it will track how much time they were on the phone and then they need to do something else. And and you're trying to change a behavior. And while you're now recouping all this extra money, they don't know how to do it, or they forget how to do it, or their secretary does it, or their paralegal does it. So you know what I mean? Like I give that as a dramatic example, but that it is an area where the people training is one aspect.
[14:38] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[14:49] Tiffani Bova: But I would tell you also one of the stats in there that worried me was when people get hired and they're told sort of what the environment is like and then they join and they're like in the first thirty days it's like this is not what I thought it was going to be. You know, I w I'm not I haven't been set up for success.
[15:02] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And most executives think they've invested enough in employee training, but or at least half of them. Actually, let's paw I think you said fifty two percent of executives think they've invested enough in in employee training, which is pretty bad actually. That means f like what what are those other forty eight percent who know they're not doing the right thing? Why aren't they doing it? But only thirty six percent of employees think that that they're company has invested enough. Like how how is this happening? Well L and D needs we need like L and D of the world unite.
[15:42] Tiffani Bova: Well, I agree. And I and I and you know, again, staying in my lane, we looked at the sort of the top disconnects between employees and execs. And this was one, right? You know, there was outdated technology, there was broken process, like there was a bunch of stuff. but but this is one, and so let's go back to where we started the survey. Like let's just say that they're saying, Do you feel like you have? I'm sure the question is something like, Do you feel like you have what you need to do your job? You know, yes or no, right? Let's just say.
[15:53] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[16:02] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[16:09] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[16:12] Tiffani Bova: And so they come back and say no, and let's just say half say no. Who's responsible to go back and and and identify what is the problem? Because sales might have a different no than customer service, then finance, then legal, then you know the the supply chain people, the manufacturer, you know what I mean? Everybody might have a different no. And so, you know, y one would argue HR is the place, but I think in the research as well.
[16:15] Kim Scott: Yeah. And fix the problem. Yeah. Right.
[16:29] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
[16:38] Tiffani Bova: Nobody owns employee experience. So this is not just an echar issue.
[16:40] Kim Scott: Yeah. No, and it ca it can't be. That would be a dramatic overdelegation to HR to say this is an HR situation. I feel like the I mean, I think that the employee surveys are they're like they're like f they're like fire alarms, but they're not the fire department, right? Like they're gonna tell you there's a problem, but you've still gotta send people in to put the fire out. And and the the survey is not gonna do that by itself.
[17:10] Tiffani Bova: Yeah, one of the examples I gave in the book that I love, Michelle Romanaugh is a she's a dragon on Dragon's Den Canada, which is US shark tank version. Yep. And so she had a company she's a double unicorn, so she's built two two one billion dollar businesses and she did it before the age of forty. I think before the age of thirty-five, if we're if we're really want to feel underachievers. Yes. Okay. Anyway, but it it was in a heavily regulated industry. And
[17:18] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah.
[17:23] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[17:28] Kim Scott: Wow. Wow. Wow.
[17:39] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[17:40] Tiffani Bova: She started to feel like her culture, her people, she had made a couple acquisitions and she felt like it was kind of getting away from her. So she's like, you know, I could go out and do this massive study and hire a consulting firm, or I could do a, you know, a a a employee survey and, you know, five months later we you know, she's like, I'm not gonna do that. And so if you have children in your car and you're listening to this podcast, you know, cover their ears or turn this down.
[17:48] Kim Scott: Right.
[17:53] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[17:57] Kim Scott: Right. Yeah.
[18:04] Kim Scott: Okay.
[18:06] Tiffani Bova: But what she said was she set up a mailbox, an email box, that stupid shit we do at and her company name. And so it was like 110 employees. And so she said, the four executive, we are going to focus on this. We're going to say on Friday we want one thing from every person. Okay? And so they did. They got, you know, 110 responses. Okay? Then they put them in buckets. What's a fire drill that we can fix right now and we have to fix? What is
[18:10] Kim Scott: I love this Yes. Yeah.
[18:23] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[18:32] Kim Scott: Mm.
[18:34] Tiffani Bova: Not a total fire drill, but we need to fix it in the next 30 days. What is a nice to fix when we have a little bit of time? And what is a good to know can't fix? Okay. And the good to know and can't fix was we're highly regulated. We can't do what you want us to do to eliminate three steps because we have to get that data or whatever. Okay. And then the fire drill, like someone was assigned, and then she said, in two weeks we're gonna have an all-company meeting. And so two weeks later, they had an all-company meeting and they showed, here's the 110 things.
[18:43] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.
[18:52] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.
[19:04] Tiffani Bova: 30 of them are already fixed. 30 of them would be fixed, you know what I mean? 30 of them be fixed in the next whatever two weeks. These 20 will not be fixed, and here's why. And these five we're gonna put later. Now what did that do? Right?
[19:06] Kim Scott: Amazing.
[19:16] Kim Scott: It I I c I can only imagine everybody was so happy. Like I I'm sure it also was really good for business, but the first thing it did was it made people feel happy. Like because dealing with stupid shit is d it's like getting stuck in traffic. It's very it's bad for morale. yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[19:34] Tiffani Bova: It's waste of time stuff, right? And it's frustrating and it's not necessary. So it plays in both the people and culture aspect of this that, okay, they asked, we answered, they actioned. Goes a long way, right? And then if they're not gonna do it, then they told us why. I might not, I might not like that I still have to do it, but now at least I understand why I'm doing it, right? Like, yeah?
[19:41] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[19:46] Kim Scott: Yeah, yes, yeah.
[19:54] Kim Scott: Yeah, why it why we're not fixing it. Yeah, yeah. We we did a version of this when I worked at Google. We we took the bug tracking system and we turned it into a management trackings and management bugs. And so we said, everything that is irritating in your day, file a bug. and these are this, you know, it may be the systems, it may be the processes, it may be stuff your manager's asking you to do. Like we wanna fix these. And I'll never forget there was one young employee who described what he had to do to go to the bathroom, like to and to get somebody to cover for him when he went. It was ridiculous. and and and I remember my boss, she sort of clutched her head and she said, my God, I'm so sorry, you know? And and and she assigned somebody to fix it. But I think becoming aware of the stuff that people are doing that is idiotic that you have asked them to do like it's it you may not be aware, but you it's your job to become aware, I think, as a as a leader.
[21:02] Tiffani Bova: Well a and you know very radical candor like you you also have to be able to somebody to say like this process sucks like these tools are terrible, right? Yeah, like sc my you know, my hair is on fire every day. I I like I waste at least four hours of my eight hour work day looking for data or switching between apps or chasing someone for a signature or trying to go to the bathroom.
[21:11] Kim Scott: Yes, yes, you have to create a culture. Yeah, yes.
[21:18] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[21:24] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I gotta go. Yeah. It is it's really it's really important. There's a there's a company called Joyous in New Zealand. It's a New Zealand based company. And they they have created a system that kinda does what that bug tracking system the manager fix it week.
[21:31] Tiffani Bova: Right, like you know
[21:52] Kim Scott: does and they were working with a a a large telecom company and the people who worked in the who drove the vans and out to fix the lines, the you know, your out to fix your internet, there was a there was a wrench that was consistently missing in the van. So the person would drive out and if this particular wrench wasn't in the van, they had to drive back and get it and And it was like a it was stupid, you know, and it was irritating for the customers, it was irritating for the guys driving the vans or the people driving the vans, and it was it was expensive. And yet somehow the this complaint didn't get fixed until they im implemented this joyous system. So I'm a huge believer in figuring out what are you gonna do as a leader to encourage people to complain. That's what you're really talking about.
[22:51] Tiffani Bova: Yeah, and I think and I and I think again, I think look, the the people process technology or PPT as is it is known is not a Tiffany Bova thing. Like it it's been around since the 60s. I borrowed it and added culture, right? Because I think people and culture in today's world, also given where I was working at the time, I saw the difference between the two. Like the people create, you know, the company, but
[23:01] Kim Scott: Yeah. Right.
[23:12] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[23:18] Tiffani Bova: The the framework by which we were working in that was absolutely the culture. And people would ask us all the time, like, how do you how do we do what you do as it relates to the culture that you've fostered that has speed and innovation and growth and that mindset and all of those things? So that is why I separated it, because I think there are they are two different motions.
[23:30] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[23:34] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[23:39] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah. Although sticking before we move on to process, one last thing on the people thing, which is management training. Most new managers are not bad people. They're good people, but they're often bad managers because they get no nobody teaches them what the job entails. And and so so you you talk in your book about the lack of management training. And the problem there is when you throw a manager Into the deep end to see if they're gonna sink or swim. If they sink, that's bad, but they also drag a whole team of people down with them. It's incredibly demoralizing and expensive. And yet companies will not invest. Even the companies I know that really do a lot of investment, that means they they reserve a day and a half to teach new managers. Like it's it's madness. so anyway, here's for investing in in real people training people how to be good managers will make a huge difference on this.
[24:46] Tiffani Bova: Yeah, well I I use myself. So the reward for being a high performing seller is you get a promotion to management. Okay.
[24:52] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. And you have n nobody tells you what that means.
[24:58] Tiffani Bova: And I was horrible. I was horrible. I was horrible. And and but and I wasn't self-aware at the time to know I was horrible. In looking back, I realized I was horrible, right? But my manager realized I needed some executive education. And so I went and did an a Wharton executive program and blah, blah, blah. Right. So that that helped me be able to sit at the, you know, at the executive table and talk to a board, right? So that was greatly
[24:59] Kim Scott: Yeah, me too. That's why I wrote the book. Like
[25:10] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
[25:18] Kim Scott: Yes.
[25:24] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
[25:25] Tiffani Bova: Helpful for me. And I never would have done that on my own, obviously. It was too expensive at the time for me, for me to do that. And so I would say that that Gallup just, it's been after my book. So it was maybe a couple months ago where Gallup, you know, it tracks employee satisfaction. And the biggest dip was in management, in middle management, was the biggest dip. And so that was the biggest dip, which then as you start to see middle managers dip, you start to see the rest of the workforce dip.
[25:41] Kim Scott: Mm.
[25:45] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[25:52] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.
[25:53] Tiffani Bova: And so it's like two quarters before the workforce sees it, the managers start, and you know, the qu famous quote, right? People don't leave companies, they leave managers. And is it really the manager's fault? You know, or are they just not trained? Usually not. Like I'm doing the best I can with what I know, and I, you know, but I don't know how to deal with conflict resolution or give someone radical candor advice or create a psychologically safe environment or all the little buzz things we all talk about.
[26:04] Kim Scott: Usually not. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
[26:14] Kim Scott: Yes, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
[26:21] Tiffani Bova: Unless they meet Kim Scott and read her book and listen to this podcast and go on their own self journey, no one is holding their hand.
[26:28] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think one of the one of the best moments of my whole career came. I I'd given a radical candor talk at a company and a young woman came up to me and she said, I became a manager a year ago and she said, and it was really hard and kind of her eyes filled with tears. I could tell it had been 'cause it is very hard. It's a hard it's a hard thing. You know, when I the first time I became a manager, a friend of mine said to me, You hate the man and now you are the man, but you're not a man like it's a
[26:56] Tiffani Bova: Yeah.
[26:58] Kim Scott: Very complicated moment. And and she said, And I read your book and it made me feel like you know, it it wa was a lifeline. And that's why I wrote the book, 'cause it's the book I wish I had had when I became a manager and kept making all these terrible mistakes that I didn't, you know, I didn't intend to hurt people, but I did. I hurt people. so anyway, here's for
[27:15] Tiffani Bova: Yeah. Yep.
[27:23] Kim Scott: s self-education if your company's not educating you, but let's encourage companies to do this. All right. So now that's the people. There's infinitely more things to be said about people, but let's talk about process because th you have so many great ma anecdotes about process going awry. Like what what's the one thing people need to think about when they are fixing their processes?
[27:51] Tiffani Bova: I I want to start with some people hate the conversation of process period like
[27:56] Kim Scott: Yes, yeah. I love a good process that doesn't f because process doesn't need to mean bureaucracy. A process can be like the thing that allows you it ca it can be the source of freedom i if done right. Yeah.
[28:04] Tiffani Bova: Correct.
[28:09] Tiffani Bova: Correct. But it's usually viewed as the former, right? As bureaucracy, red tape, or micromanaging or something like that, where the process is I'm at starting here, custom, let's go back to calls, right? Customer calls has a problem all the way to resolution. What's the process? Right? And people journey map and map processes and all that. But sometimes organizations will change something in isolation and it
[28:13] Kim Scott: Yes, yeah. Yeah. Yes.
[28:21] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[28:25] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[28:37] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[28:39] Tiffani Bova: Adds another step or two or three or ten to someone else's process, and they never understand the unintended consequence of that change. And so a lot of this falls in the fact that even enterprise, you know, mid-size and sort of smaller on the enterprise side don't have change management teams, groups, a change management office. No one is watching, like there's not a project management office, change management office. And you might go,
[28:42] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah.
[28:48] Kim Scott: Yes.
[28:59] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
[29:07] Tiffani Bova: More bureaucracy, more layers. And it's like it's actually to eliminate that bureaucracy and get rid of layers so that things aren't just added. Like what happened in the Michelle Romanoff example was in the acquisitions, they just bolted on the new processes on top of existing processes. And because it was faster and they didn't have the time and the integration, you know, and all that. So it wasn't intentional, but then it landed in something that used to take four steps, it's taking nine steps, and no one no one knew it, right?
[29:12] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[29:24] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[29:35] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah.
[29:35] Tiffani Bova: So process is also, you know, the human. I have to do something, I have a job. How easy? How much time? How quickly can I do it? You know, what is my distraction? What is my level of comfort and understanding? And so i it it it is very hard as an individual contributor to improve the processes of your day-to-day life.
[29:56] Kim Scott: Yeah, you have to live with them and that's demoralizing.
[30:00] Tiffani Bova: Unless, right, you can go and say, listen, I open and close a ticket a hundred times a day. And I have to do these three things. I my next one, I'm one with my manager. I'm gonna raise the idea of if we could just eliminate this and this, like it might be better. So again, from post-it notes, which were created by somebody way on the edge, right? A secretary, not even an executive assistant.
[30:19] Kim Scott: Mm. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[30:27] Tiffani Bova: A secretary, right? This is we're dating this, you know, all the way to someone actually saying, I think there's a product here, or I think there's a way to do it better here, because I'm in it all day, every day. And that is also out of undercover boss. Because what happens out of that is that individual employee, the the manager or the leader, right, goes, I want you to run this because no one knows this better than you. And you'll understand, you have empathy for the role. And there's a perfect example of that idea bubbled up.
[30:27] Kim Scott: Right, right, right.
[30:39] Kim Scott: Mm.
[30:50] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
[30:57] Tiffani Bova: But i unless you're on an undercover boss, how do you create that environment for process re-engineering and rethinking and ideas to foster in a way that isn't distracting, right? Because if you're in a large company, you could get a thousand ideas a day, and some of them are a waste of time. And there might be a diamond in the rough that would really open up and unlock freedom and more focus on the things that are more complex and humans can do. And now with AI,
[31:15] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[31:26] Tiffani Bova: You can find those broken processes so much easier, right? And you can help empower people to fix the processes on their own.
[31:29] Kim Scott: Yes.
[31:33] Kim Scott: Yes, yeah. I think that it's so important when when there there was one point in my career where so many people were coming to me with these bright ideas. I was leader of, you know, a couple hundred person team, a lot of young, energetic people. They kept coming to me with these process ideas. But they kept assigning me the work of fixing everything. And I'm just one person. Like I couldn't I couldn't keep up with all these bright ideas. And so I I had to s and I found that I was starting to sort of be a d a downer. I was starting to push them away. And I realized I needed to create a process around our process. And there was an ideas team that would that would solicit ideas from people and stack rank them sort of like you were describing, P0, P1, P2, and say, we're gonna do these, we're not gonna do these. But they would explain why that ideas weren't gonna happen. And they could assign me work. They could assign me action items, but only five or ten action items a week, not five hundred, you know, because because I think one of the things with process is is that you've you've you've got push the decision about how to fix these processes into the facts. You're g you'll burn out if you're leading a big team. Cause everybody has there's a million little things and that's where I think really sustainable competitive advantage comes from is these lot of little fixed tweaks to process.
[32:52] Tiffani Bova: Yes. Yes.
[33:05] Tiffani Bova: Yeah, but again, look go back to, you know, what if we don't train them and they stay? What if we don't pay attention to these processes? Because I will tell you, I don't know about you, but in any given week, I at least one time, like I'm not gonna make this at least ten times, but at least one time I hear I'm trying to increase productivity of my people. Okay. At least one time. And I'm and I'm sort of saying that to just be, you know, a little funny, right? It's more than once. But
[33:08] Kim Scott: Yes, yes.
[33:25] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
[33:31] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[33:34] Tiffani Bova: Give me at least it's not zero. Okay? All right. So if everyone is hyper focused on more productivity of people now that we're on people in process, right? Then if you train them more, they're gonna be more productive. If you eliminate unnecessary steps, they're gonna be more productive. They're gonna do the things that actually have higher impact and you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So instead of looking at AI and technology as a way to get more productivity, like that in isolation, hence why I have PPTC, right? It you cannot just say tech is gonna fix it.
[34:01] Kim Scott: Yes.
[34:04] Tiffani Bova: Because the people and the processes have to follow the tech so that people are trained and you have the right processes. And you're not bolting one more thing on top of 10. You're saying if we do this, we're gonna eliminate three. That what comes off the plate when you add on the plate, like just that one simple question. You want me to do this, you know, manager, leader, whatever, what am I taking off my plate? Because my plate is full. What am I not gonna do?
[34:08] Kim Scott: Yes.
[34:24] Kim Scott: Yeah. What am I not gonna do? Yes. Yeah, I'm already working full time. I feel like process is a little bit it's there's it's a little bit like barnacles on a ship. and so you need to scrape them off every so often if you're gonna if the ship is gonna go faster. You know, you you don't want you don't want the process to expand, you want it to shrink. which which takes some discipline.
[34:49] Tiffani Bova: Yeah, there was a there was a stat in the book that it's dated now, but it was from Bain, and I'm gonna get the numbers wrong because I'm doing it from memory, but it was like one stat was for companies under five billion and one stat was for companies for over five billion. So obviously very big organizations. Okay. but the it was somewhere in the range of the 90% of the reason companies find it harder to grow is internal inertia, bureaucracy, right? And broke it so the barnacles, right? The barnacles.
[34:55] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[35:02] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
[35:13] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. The barnacles are on the ship.
[35:19] Tiffani Bova: So it will slow you down. It will slow you down.
[35:21] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Unless you use technology to automate. So I think I I love what you said about the use of technology to improve your process because what are we gonna stop doing? Before we think about what we should automate, what what can we just stop doing? seems like an important question to ask. Otherwise you're kind of paving the cow paths. You're automating things that you could just stop doing. Yeah. Yeah.
[35:47] Tiffani Bova: Aren't necessary. Yes. Yes. But that's why change management's important. and that's why this is this is very much a marketing thing. And you're probably, if for those of you who will hear this, you might roll your eyes. But journey mapping processes is really powerful. Like the guy for the bathroom. Here's the nine things I have to do to go to the bathroom. Instead of if he just walked up to someone and said, Look, I really need to go, can you cover me? I gotta pee, right?
[36:03] Kim Scott: Yes.
[36:07] Kim Scott: Yeah. Right.
[36:12] Kim Scott: Can you cover me? I gotta pee. Yeah.
[36:16] Tiffani Bova: But if someone going, like, yeah, I can in like 20, you're like, I've been looking for someone for an hour, right? Like, right? But I am going to write down the nine things I have to do to actually go to the bathroom. Okay? And then someone goes, okay, well, let's eliminate to the point, Kim, right? Let's eliminate that. Like, let's streamline this. This is ridiculous. But someone may not know the process. So the first thing if you're listening to this and you're like, my God, I hear myself in this story.
[36:20] Kim Scott: Yeah, I gotta go. Yeah, now.
[36:26] Kim Scott: Right.
[36:31] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[36:35] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
[36:43] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[36:44] Tiffani Bova: Like and you do something all day every day. If you mapped out step one to step ninety-five, whatever it is, like I was working with a client in Canada, it took him twenty twenty-two minutes to do a return. Okay, over the phone. And so that's three an hour. That's twenty-four in a shift. Okay? It's like, do you think that person wakes up every day and goes, my god, I can't wait. I'm gonna do 24 returns today. It's gonna be a killer day. I'm so excited. No.
[37:00] Kim Scott: God.
[37:09] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
[37:13] Tiffani Bova: Right? It was like, so we journey mapped it and of course took it down to like three or four minutes. And and and now you get more productivity. The person doesn't feel like, here's another return. It's not because they don't do returns. It's you know, it's a call center. So it's not always returns, but they're doing a bunch of things. But I'm being, you know, be trying to be specific. So, you know, in this case, and no one had any idea. So you're asking for more productivity. It's a very metric-driven role. How many calls, how many heads, how much time on the phone?
[37:26] Kim Scott: Yeah. They they're doing a bunch of different things. Yeah.
[37:37] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[37:43] Tiffani Bova: Can we get rid of heads, add heads, like you know what I mean? Like it is a very metric-driven business. And so if you can get and improve those processes in other parts of your business, getting a product out the door, getting a bill out the door, getting an RFP out the door, closing your books, like getting a contract done, like we could go through. Everything is time.
[37:45] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yes.
[38:03] Kim Scott: Yep, yeah. And I think also everything is time, but there's also growth. The unlock here is growth. Like if you t 'cause if you tell your people, Okay, we want you to be more productive so that we can fire half of you, like that does not create a great incentive, right? So you wanna say
[38:09] Tiffani Bova: Yes.
[38:18] Tiffani Bova: Correct. Correct.
[38:21] Kim Scott: y if you can save fifty percent of your time, I'm gonna give you time to do work that has meaning for you, that's more interesting, that's gonna help you grow in your career and that's gonna help this business grow. I think you you've gotta make sure that you're aligning the the incentives correctly.
[38:38] Tiffani Bova: Yeah, and there's an IKEA story and I'm gonna ruin this, but I'm gonna do my best. Also not in the book, but IKEA was doing something in the call center and automating and there was like a good I'm again, I'm making this up. I'm directionally correct. It like a thousand people.
[38:46] Kim Scott: Right.
[38:51] Kim Scott: In the call center. Okay.
[38:53] Tiffani Bova: Yep, we're either gonna let you all go.
[38:56] Kim Scott: wow.
[38:57] Tiffani Bova: Or we're going to reskill you to a new product offering where you will now be these virtual designers for IKEA stuff.
[39:05] Kim Scott: Wow.
[39:08] Tiffani Bova: So they did. And they've now it's now almost a billion dollar business.
[39:08] Kim Scott: That's amazing.
[39:12] Kim Scott: Wow, yeah. That's what you wanna do for people is you wanna say we're gonna teach you something new or you're gonna better yet, you're gonna teach us something new, what you want to be doing. What because you're you wanna push the decisions about what people should be doing into their day to day. They know what they should be doing better than you do if you're eight steps away from what they're actually doing.
[39:32] Tiffani Bova: Yeah, but I mean that's just a great that's a g that's a you know, it's a once in a lifetime example. Like if only everyone would do that, right? That that had the culture that that's what they were gonna do, you know, a Lego or an IKEA or a Southwest or you know, there is very specific brands and examples and cultures and and and things like that. But but I would say i i if you are just automating to reduce heads, I'm not a fan of it. I'm not a fan of it. Yeah.
[39:38] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yes.
[39:45] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
[39:57] Kim Scott: Yeah, I'm not a fan either because you're not gonna get the bet I mean, you're not gonna do a good job because you're what you're doing in that situation is you're creating every incentive for people to throw wrenches into the gears. Right? Like what peop people are rational actors. Why would why would you why am I gonna help you fire all my the person to my left and the person to my right? I'm not gonna do that. but if you're gonna help us
[40:11] Tiffani Bova: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[40:20] Tiffani Bova: Yeah. Yeah.
[40:25] Kim Scott: Do something new and interesting with our careers, yes. you know, and stop doing this brain dead process that you have in mind. Yeah, yeah. I think and I think that technology and automation really has the potential, especially now with AI, it has the potential to allow people to automate the routine, boring, tedious work that they don't want to do, allowing them to do
[40:32] Tiffani Bova: Yes, yes.
[40:53] Kim Scott: Work that is interesting to them, that has real meaning to them, that is that is gonna help them grow or or is just more fun. but only I think in your book you had the stat that 33% of employees agree that their company automates routine work, and fifty percent of the C suite agree with that. Again, the gap is enormous, but also like what those other forty eight percent of the C suite, like what are y'all doing? Why are you not automating
[41:19] Tiffani Bova: But pretty consistently, pretty consistently across all the stats, it was it was fifty percent or north thereof of people not having leaders not having the right insight, right? Or or only part of the story. Let me say part of the story. Because it's not the employees are all 100% right and the executive i i it you know, it's somewhere in the middle, right? But but I think that the gap between the two, that is a communication problem, that is a leadership problem, that is a transparency problem.
[41:31] Kim Scott: Yes.
[41:39] Kim Scott: Right.
[41:48] Kim Scott: Yes.
[41:48] Tiffani Bova: That is it, you know, that is all the things we all talk about, right? That is what leadership is about. Like, even if it's not good news, you know, you should be able to stand up there and go, look, I know that this feels very heavy and you have to do it. This is why. People are like, okay. It's like when you're a kid. You gotta clean your room, take out the trash, do the dishes, whatever. And you're like, you know, and then you sort of say, why? Because, you know, mom or dad, I have to put the baby down and I, you know, it would really help me. Okay, now I understand. Now, kids are a little different. They don't understand everything, you know, the way we well.
[41:51] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[42:02] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[42:13] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[42:18] Tiffani Bova: It depends, but the way we are as adults, yeah. But you know, ultimately at the end people just kinda wanna know the why, and they wanna know the how and they wanna know what they need to do, you know? Yeah.
[42:19] Kim Scott: Yeah, they understand a lot, yeah.
[42:29] Kim Scott: And also what's in it for them, you know, because cause they're good there there has to be there has to be something in it for them. I I f I feel like there's sort of Toyota TPM, Toyota's process manufacturing was so good about this, about using technology and and process to to help people encourage frontline workers to say this is broken, like and and and this is this is not it's broken, it's annoying, it's expensive. a and and I think as we move forward with AI AI, we've got to take much more of a T PM approach and much less of a tailorism, you know, I'm gonna watch you work and clock at how long it you know.
[43:18] Tiffani Bova: Yeah.
[43:20] Kim Scott: what what are some of the things that you're seeing that companies are doing that are really helping people say, This, you know, this is how I used AI and it was a triumph and this is how I used AI and it was a disaster, and let's have more triumphs and less disasters.
[43:37] Tiffani Bova: Yeah, and I think tech is just so woven into everything. You know, I think when you and I started, it was not as woven in as it is today. And now it's just ubiquitous, right? It's in in every part of the globe, right? I mean, there's the joke that there's more cell phones on the planet than toothbrushes. I mean, it is, it is, it it is, they are it is everywhere. So, you know, ultimately, I think that I am a fan of tech and human, not tech alone, not human alone, but the sort of the marrying of the two.
[43:40] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[43:45] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[43:49] Kim Scott: Mm.
[43:53] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yes.
[44:02] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Yes.
[44:06] Tiffani Bova: and I think AI has accelerated a conversation around what humans want to do and what tech should be doing and versus you know kind of overall. And and I I don't know necessarily when you layer AI in, it can be super disruptive if not sort of guardrailed, right? And it can be super it can be super effective if done right.
[44:14] Kim Scott: Yes.
[44:25] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Yes, yeah.
[44:32] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
[44:34] Tiffani Bova: So, you know, some of this is who is making those decisions? Is it the CEO? Is it CIO? Is it somebody who's like in the process learning team? Like, you know what I mean? Like, let's pick a place. And so you see these use cases of call center processes, excuse me, sales, marketing. You see these use cases where you know they deploy it in a very specific function, it gives improved productivity, you see the lift.
[44:41] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[44:47] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah.
[45:03] Tiffani Bova: And they start to expand and start to expand. You don't hear like Ford just recently had like let go of all these people because they'd done AI, and then they rehired them back. It was like 10 months later. And some of it was institutional knowledge that the people had that AI did not. And and you know, and what is the balance between the two? So, you know, it this is if you are entering any technology conversation with I'm going to do more with less versus saying.
[45:16] Kim Scott: Yeah, that's not a yeah. Yeah, yeah.
[45:32] Tiffani Bova: How do I use tech to allow me to the art of the possible and to do what I'm doing now differently, either more effectively or give me that scale I need or open up freedom for creativity in my teams? Like it has to be something like that. And I think that's where people are like, sounds great on a bumper sticker, but I need true ROI to get people to invest in this technology. And if I'm gonna spend X, I need Y back.
[45:38] Kim Scott: Yes.
[45:46] Kim Scott: Yes. Yes.
[46:00] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[46:00] Tiffani Bova: And it's like not everything in the business has that direct line ROI because it it's not possible. It's easy in the front line because it's how many calls, how many tickets, how many sales, how many churn, you know, how much, what's the average sales price, what's the CAC, what's the I mean, all that stuff is very metric driven. The rest of the organization is not quite so metric driven. And so, you know, what are you really trying to improve? And I think.
[46:04] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
[46:27] Tiffani Bova: Overall, this is a stat from MuleSoft that there's like nine hundred and seventy average on enterprise, nine hundred and seventy unique applications in the four walls of an enterprise. Okay
[46:36] Kim Scott: Wow. That nine hundred and seventy? my gosh.
[46:40] Tiffani Bova: Yeah, okay? Now, you know, some of it is only like in manufacturing or legal, you know what I mean? So everyone has their own. But if you collectively add, and it could be one person has one tool, right? So, okay, and only like 26 or 27% of them are integrated. Okay, so that means as a human, I'm switching between multiple applications all day, every day. And it's like two point two seconds, point two of a millisecond, right, of time for you to switch. If you go from tab to tab.
[46:45] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
[46:55] Kim Scott: Wow.
[47:09] Tiffani Bova: And if I asked people if I could see them, I'd be like, how many apps do you need to do your job? Less than five, no hands go up. Five to ten, some hands go up. More than ten, the majority of the room. And then I ask, how many tabs do you have open? And everyone laughs. Right? It's like a hundred. And then you go, okay, how much time do you actually waste only switching between apps? And this was an HBR study. It's like five weeks of time. Switching between apps. So
[47:15] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
[47:31] Kim Scott: Mm. Yeah. And it's it's like the the I forgot what who the writer was, but the the mail the mailman came and rang the doorbell and it like destroyed a day's worth of productivity. Sometimes like switching between apps, you're having a great thought and it's gone. Yeah.
[47:45] Tiffani Bova: Right. Correct. Context switching is yep. Context switching is real. And so even, you know, I a Slack message, an email, a phone call, a Zoom, you y we rarely carve out time to sit and think or do work. You're sort of doing it in between this, you know, and so tech can yeah, yes.
[47:56] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[48:02] Kim Scott: Yeah. Or late at night when you should be sleeping.
[48:06] Tiffani Bova: So tech is either a big distractor or it can be a big enabler. And I think that that's where we've gotten too far away. And I worry that there's a lot of course correction needed in that particular bloat category of to do my job I need seven apps. Like
[48:13] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[48:19] Kim Scott: Yes.
[48:22] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that I think that happens and also I think there's this desire to like centralize and control it. Whereas what you really need is for people to say, Here's how here's here's this one little thing that I'm gonna automate. And it's gonna be hard to figure out how what what the ROI is on that. But if you have if you have thousands of employees who like their job better because they've been able to use AI to automate something that's irritating, that's gonna add up to something very to to a much better employee experience.
[49:01] Tiffani Bova: Absolutely. And I, you know, I was one of the one of the guys on my team. We we do, you know, calls with clients all the time. And at the end of the call, you know, we want to sort of send a hey, thank you for your time. And here's what we talked about, you know, here's some just want to recap sort of some of the advice I gave and here's some research we think this is for clients, okay? And so that takes call it 10 minutes.
[49:17] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah.
[49:23] Tiffani Bova: fifteen. And if they do four to six of those a day, you know, do they have an hour and a half to do these fall? And most of the time it happens at the end of the day. Then they forget the eight AM call they had. So he created a a script, right, using cowork. And and absolutely it takes the recording of the call, summarizes, drafts the email, drops it into his Gmail draft folder. The end of the day he has like seven drafts and he can just go in and then he puts his voice on it, right?
[49:30] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[49:40] Kim Scott: Uh-huh.
[49:45] Kim Scott: Mm.
[49:49] Kim Scott: He can revise them, yeah.
[49:51] Tiffani Bova: He he can clean it up a little bit and hit send. So you just ask the question, right? What can you do and what what's working, not working? And so then I had him tell us at the team meeting. So like the rest of the team is like, I want to do that. And then someone else said, right? They they use the script, right? Then someone else is like, I have it scan my calendar on a Monday and it goes through client meetings and it helps me get prepared. Here's the last three things you talked about, blah blah blah blah, right? You you would need 10 minutes or 15 minutes to prep for every call and now it's pushing to you.
[49:54] Kim Scott: I love that. Yeah. Yeah.
[50:03] Kim Scott: Then everybody borrowed the script. Yeah.
[50:14] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[50:21] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yes. And then people can share these skills.
[50:21] Tiffani Bova: And so I want that script. I mean, you know what mean? So it it people can share it, right? And so, but it by the way, I have 10 very smart people who can do these sort of you know scripts and and can do these skills and could do on their own in isolation, and I could have 10 people running in 10 different directions. Coordinating them has been difficult, right? Because they all are the smartest that you know at what they're doing.
[50:42] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
[50:49] Tiffani Bova: And it's it I and I'm like, look, it's not about that yours is I need a standardized way we do that. And I need a standardized way we do this so that there's one skill and we're all doing the same thing. Because if someone subs in for you for something and they get something totally different or they get nothing, then it's not a great experience, right? If they've it come to expect from him that they get this and then they talk to one of you and you don't do that, they're like, wait a minute, why am I not getting that, right?
[50:55] Kim Scott: Yes.
[51:06] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
[51:16] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[51:17] Tiffani Bova: So you know, it it really is about that leaning into that experience.
[51:21] Kim Scott: Yeah, I think AI is giving employees bionic arms and legs. But that means when they jump, they better jump in the same direction because if they don't, they're gonna pull each other apart. All right. Last but not least, culture. Culture. How how can people how how can leaders create a better culture for for their employees?
[51:29] Tiffani Bova: That's right. That's right. That's right. Last one. Yeah. Yep.
[51:44] Tiffani Bova: Yeah, and I'm gonna I'm gonna go back to what I said at the beginning. Like I had no idea the true power of culture until I worked at Salesforce. And so you and I met when I was working at Salesforce, and it was a leadership offsite. We were in Palm Springs, I remember it well. and you gave a radical candor presentation and I ran up to you after, and I'm like, I want to know you. Like, let's let's get to know each other. And yes, I had and then I had you on my podcast, and you know, here we are. It's probably been 10 years now.
[51:53] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Yes.
[52:04] Kim Scott: Yeah. You had me on your podcast, which I was deeply grateful for. Yeah.
[52:14] Tiffani Bova: but that was like I think that was my second month. And that the presentation the next day blew my mind, right? Like just like this is not, you know, I'm not in Kansas anymore. You know what I mean? Kind of a okay, wow, right? And and just the way, you know, 60,000, 50,000, 40,000 people can move very quickly has everything to do with culture. Like, right?
[52:20] Kim Scott: Wow.
[52:23] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[52:28] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
[52:38] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
[52:42] Tiffani Bova: And so I was like, I had a front row seat. I never would have included it had I not had that front row seat. Right? And so one of the main things in my role there was people would come and want to know how did we do our V2 Moms, which is the way in which Mark started the company, bending off our the CEO, started the company and it became the framework for culture. So it's V, the number two, and then O So it's vision and values.
[52:49] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[53:11] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[53:11] Tiffani Bova: Those are the two V's, and then methods, obstacle, and metrics. That is V2 Mom. He would do his, and then it would, and he would do the companies. Then it would cascade to his team and cascade and cascade. And everybody in the company had to do a V2 mom. So if I were meeting with Kim one day and I didn't know you, I could go see your V2 mom. Full transparency. I could see Marks.
[53:15] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[53:28] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[53:33] Kim Scott: wow. Mm-hmm.
[53:37] Tiffani Bova: I could see our CFOs, I could see a sales, you know what I mean? Like I you could see anybody's. So I knew what was important to you and what you were focused on. So that when I met with you, I'm like, okay, I I I I I'm here to help that in this way, right? And when COVID hit, we had a COVID v2 mom, right? Because all of a sudden everything was flipped upside down. Company couldn't go in this direction because everything's happening. We need a comp you know, we need a COVID v2 mom. And that
[53:42] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[53:45] Kim Scott: Right.
[53:50] Kim Scott: Right.
[53:54] Kim Scott: Wow.
[53:58] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[54:03] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[54:04] Tiffani Bova: sort of was drafted and rolled and executed in like, you know, days.
[54:09] Kim Scott: Wow. That's incredible.
[54:11] Tiffani Bova: So that is the tip of the spear example, right? But people will come in and go, and and many customers of theirs will have they they have their own V2 moms. Like they've gone through the exercise. It could be a division of a massive enterprise. It could be an entire company, like, and they come up with their own version of whatever that looked like, right? But that's because people were starving for a framework of how do I even understand what my culture is? What's my vision? What's my values?
[54:14] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[54:20] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[54:24] Kim Scott: Mm.
[54:29] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[54:37] Tiffani Bova: What's my methods, what's my obstacles, what's my metrics? Like, how do I do it? What's in my way? And what's my metric, right? All aligned to the vision and values of the company. Right? And so it was a it I never would have written that chapter had I not had that experience. And a lot of it was informed on. I can absolutely state that there is power behind a positive culture where people know how they play a part in the business.
[54:46] Kim Scott: Right.
[55:05] Tiffani Bova: What their role, if the impact is, you know, how the impact is on communities and the world. And, you know, it's a very unique place, you know, with the one one model. And I mean, there's all kinds of things around the values of that business. Is it always perfect? No. Right? But whether uncomfortable or not, we're gonna have the conversation. Yeah.
[55:10] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
[55:21] Kim Scott: Of course not, yeah. It's pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. And where did the V two mom come from? Like who like ha l Mark did Mark started that.
[55:31] Tiffani Bova: Mark did it. Mark started it. Yeah, Mark started it when the company was founded. So that's why what I also learned is if you grow the business from day and he calls kind of day one, right? From day one with V2 Mom, doesn't matter if you're one through two and and he always often jokes, it Parker and I sort of, you know, we had to keep hold ourselves accountable, right? Yeah, okay. To 50,000 employees that nothing wavered. But but if you're an organization that doesn't have that.
[55:42] Kim Scott: Mm-hmm.
[55:49] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[55:56] Kim Scott: That's amazing.
[56:00] Tiffani Bova: And you have a thousand employees, how do you corral the culture and cr and introduce something like that when you already have a culture? What is it? So it's easy when you're starting from day one out, right? But if you're not and you're trying to course correct, it gets more difficult. So culture is one of those things that you culture eat strategy for breakfast, lunch, dinner, like, you know, whomever you want to quote on this. but all of it comes down to you know, what is it that that you want your business to stand for?
[56:00] Kim Scott: Mm.
[56:08] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[56:29] Tiffani Bova: Because people will take jobs because of that culture, they will leave jobs because of that culture, they will invest in that, in your business, they will buy from you because of the culture, they will not buy from you because of the culture. Like, you know, you and I could go on for hours about the not buy for culture, especially over what's happened in the United States over the last six or seven years. Like there is a lot around this, right? Like, what do you stand for?
[56:33] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[56:40] Kim Scott: Mm. Right, right.
[56:46] Kim Scott: Yes, yes.
[56:51] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[56:55] Tiffani Bova: And and but I do think there's a fine line between the corporate what I stand for, what do I personally stand for. I mean, there is a fine line. You're just never gonna agree with everybody you work with and what the company does. It's not possible, right? Yeah.
[57:04] Kim Scott: No, and nor should you. I mean, I think belief that goes unchallenged becomes a prejudice. So we want that. we want to have these disagreements. we want to have the people who believe different things in a company. one question for you. Where does executive versus frontline employee compensation go? Is this a people problem or is this a culture problem? Because one of the most dramatic graphs in your book was about what has happened over time as productivity has improved, the amount of money that's gone to to frontline workers has not improved with productivity. It's gone instead to executives. Like what
[57:47] Tiffani Bova: Yeah. And and listen, I'd be remiss. Is it's just not my lane. It's just in and I I I'm really clear about it, right? Like anything that has to do with like comp and you know, benefits and those kinds of it's just it's just not my lane. Like I really try to stay in that, you know, that moment that matters. But I will tell you, right, like if someone's underpaid, their attitude is different, right? If they feel overworked, their attitude is different. So I agree that that is part of this.
[57:51] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[58:03] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[58:07] Kim Scott: Yes, yes.
[58:13] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[58:14] Tiffani Bova: But I would say the audience for that would have been HR, right? Where mine is sort of like it's kind of a role that doesn't exist. You know, and and what I said in the book is I'm not advocating for a new role necessarily, because we don't need another role, but we do need the executives to agree that these things are important and someone has to be responsible for having this conversation, like Michelle did, or like Mark has done, or like IKEA did, or you know what I mean? Like someone has to be.
[58:17] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[58:20] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[58:26] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[58:30] Kim Scott: Yes.
[58:35] Kim Scott: Yes, yes, yeah.
[58:40] Tiffani Bova: When someone makes a change to customer, raise their hand and say, hold on, what's the impact to employees?
[58:44] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah. So so important. Tiffany, thank you so much. I always learn a ton talking to you. in addition to buying a copy of the experience mindset, where can people reach you? How can they hire you? Where wh where can they follow you? What do you want them to do?
[59:04] Tiffani Bova: So I have a podcast called What's Next. I'm I'm in the tail end of it. Yep. I I'm I'm at the 10 year mark in a in in a in in about eight months. And I think I'm gonna retire it 10 years. I think I'm gonna retire it in 10 years. It's been it's been a really good run, 400 something shows. I I'm on LinkedIn, I'm active, I have a newsletter, I'm on social media, on Instagram and and X. and I always love feedback. Look, if you've read the book and you liked it, I'd love to hear why. If you read the book and you didn't like it, I'd love to hear why. Like I I'm I'm open to all of it.
[59:07] Kim Scott: Such a great podcast, I love it.
[59:15] Kim Scott: Wow. my gosh.
[59:32] Kim Scott: Yes. Yes. You and I'll say that is true. You really are open to the feedback. so so reach out to Tiffany. Tiffany Tiffany Bova dot com is your is your website, correct? All right. Thank you so much. Great chatting.
[59:34] Tiffani Bova: I'm open to all of
[59:46] Tiffani Bova: Yes. Yes. Thank you, everybody. Thanks, Kim, as always. It's always a pleasure.
[59:52] Kim Scott: Thank you.