Scaling Smart: Leading Effectively When You Have 50+ Direct Reports 7 | 10

Episode at a Glance: Scaling Leadership & Managing Large Teams

Radical Candor Podcast Resources

• 7 Ways To Improve One-on-One Meetings | Radical Candor
• Effective 1:1s – Tips For One-on-One Meetings With Your Team
• Have More Effective 1:1 Meetings | Radical Candor Podcast 2 | 9
• How To Get Shit Done | Radical Candor Podcast 4 | 2
• Radical Candor – Boost Leadership Capability | Joyous
• You Have Too Many Managers
• Leading Large Teams: How to Manage 50+ Direct Reports In an Open Office or Factory Setting | Radical Candor

The TLDR Radical Candor Podcast Transcript

[00:00:00] Kim Scott: Hello everybody, welcome to the Radical Candor podcast. I’m Kim Scott. 

[00:00:07] Amy Sandler: I’m Amy Sandler. And today we’re talking about something that Kim, you often talk about, which is how relationships don’t scale, but culture does. First of all, before I go any further, do you still agree with that? This idea that you can’t scale your relationships, but you do that through culture. 

[00:00:26] Kim Scott: Yeah, I mean, you’re not scaling your relationships through culture, but culture does scale and relationships don’t scale. Yes. I still agree with that. 

[00:00:33] Amy Sandler: Okay, cool. So we have a question from a listener about what can you do when you just can’t clone yourself? And by the way, we may be able to do that down the road, that’s a different podcast. This question from our listener: they write, quote, I frequently work with manufacturing teams where managers often have thirty to fifty direct reports on the shop floor. What is your recommendation for how to do effective one on one meetings in this environment, where there’s often not an office or place to talk privately? Having great one on ones is easier to do when you’ve got three to five direct reports and work in an office environment. But I’m curious as to practical tips and tools you recommend in a manufacturing environment with a large number of direct reports. And also with a large number of direct reports in general. Thank you. 

[00:01:27] Kim Scott: I love this question. Uh, it is so important because a lot of people do have way more direct reports uh, then it’s possible to have real, I mean, you cannot have fifty real deep, meaningful relationships. You just can’t, there’s not, but human beings do not scale, which is why relationships don’t scale. And so what can we do, what can a person do who has this many direct reports? Uh, I think that the important thing in this kind of situation is to create an environment in which people know that they have a way to be heard. They know they have a way to, to fill in complaints and to file complaints in a way that they can be heard. And with that many direct reports if you took questions and criticism, solicited criticism from all fifty people, if you also just asked for suggestions from fifty people, you’d burn out almost instantly. Uh, it, in Radical Candor, I talk about this moment where pretty soon, I was soliciting great ideas from the team, and pretty soon I didn’t wanna hear any more great ideas. 

[00:02:47] Because every great idea came with action items for me. And I couldn’t do, I couldn’t take all those action items , you know, I was just one person. And so one of the things that I would recommend is to create sort of like an ideas team with people where, uh, everyone can submit suggestions, complaints, things are broken. And this team of people will figure out which ones are going to have the most impact, which ones are the most important ones to fix, and they can suggest to the manager, uh, they can ask for, you know, three or four actions for the manager to take each week, but not thirty or fifty. Uh, and that way the team feels like they’re a little bit, you’re giving the team a way to sort of self manage in this case. Since you really cannot manage fifty people in the way that I recommend in Radical Candor. So I know that’s not an exact answer to the one on one, but that’s one suggestion. Uh in terms of one on ones with thirty to fifty direct reports. 

[00:04:02] Amy Sandler: And Kim before we go on to that, I’m really curious with your ideas team and people can submit complaints things are broken, et cetera, how do you think about like this, is the ideas team, is that more about processes or specific work product rather than, oh, I’m frustrated by colleague A said this in a meeting or sort of more interpersonal stuff. Like where would you put that kind of a complaint? 

[00:04:29] Kim Scott: So if you’re, if you have a frustration with a team member, this is where Radical Candor becomes really important. The most scalable thing is to create a culture in which if you have a problem with someone, you go talk to that person directly. Uh, and nine times out of ten, you can probably sort it out. And if you can’t sort it out, then you go together to the manager. And so what the ideas team is more ideas about the way we’re working together. Uh, anything that’s frustrating you from furniture to strategy, I would say, but not your team members, you should be radically candid with your team members. By the way, I’m not selling, I have no financial arrangement with this company. But there’s a company called Joyous and they have built a system that will allow for, that will create an ideas team for you. And identify the right person to create fixes for the great ideas that come out of your team.

[00:05:30] Amy Sandler: Cool. Yeah. And I think that is one of the ways that technology can support that. And just acknowledging it could be very helpful, just to speak to the manager, somebody who’s asking the question, whether it’s our listener or someone else. That what you’re saying is on the ideas team, I think being really clear that we’re talking about processes or work product and that we really do encourage you, uh, to build that culture of Radical Candor. So they don’t think that’s just a place to drop personal frustrations, to be very clear about that.

[00:06:00] Kim Scott: Well, they could be personal frustrations, but not personal frustrations with other people. 

[00:06:05] Amy Sandler: Frustrations about actual persons. 

[00:06:07] Kim Scott: Yes. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. 

[00:06:11] Amy Sandler: So, all right, so you talked about the ideas team and. 

[00:06:15] Kim Scott: By the way, the reason why I started with the ideas team is that the goal, one of the most important goals of a one on one meeting is to listen to each of your direct reports. And you really cannot listen to thirty to fifty people every week. Uh, it’s not possible. But the ideas team creates kind of a culture of listening so that people, uh, have a way to talk to each other about some of the things that you might be talking to them about if you only had three to five instead of ten times that many direct reports. Does that make sense? 

[00:06:52] Amy Sandler: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:06:54] Kim Scott: Um, so that’s number one. Like so, taking a step back to thinking about one on one meetings. The purpose of a one on one meeting is to listen to people and to help them clarify their ideas because new ideas are fragile and so easily trampled. So you want to create systems where people are doing that for each other and, uh, as an alternative to a regularly scheduled one on one. 

[00:07:18] Amy Sandler: And so just, yeah, so kind of building that, a tool like a Joyous or the ideas team can kind of scale that listening for you because you can only do so much intentional one on one listening. 

[00:07:29] Kim Scott: Yeah. So when I started the ideas team, it was really just a shared document. So I don’t know in a manufacturing environment, if people have their phones with them and can access shared documents. You know, if that doesn’t work, it could be a big piece of paper where people, uh, or a physical box where people drop ideas in if a shared document doesn’t work. The nice thing about a shared document is that people can upvote or downvote. So, uh, if you don’t have a shared document, you can have like, um, a board where people can put ideas and then they can, uh, put check marks next to the ideas they like or something like that. So that’s number one is, you want to create this culture of listening so that people, even though you as their manager can’t hear every single person, every single idea.

[00:08:24] There’s a way for people to get their ideas heard. Uh, because, and the reason why this is important is A, because you care about people and it’s emotionally important for them to be heard. But it’s also important for business reasons because the best ideas are going to come from each of the people on the shop floor. Every single person on that shop floor has a great idea for ways to work that are going to either improve efficiency or tasks that are getting done that could just, that you could stop doing, which would improve efficiency. Or ways to work, uh, that are more fun where people, uh, would enjoy their job more if this irritant or that irritant were removed.

[00:09:16] Um, this is not a shop floor kind of thing, but one of the stories from Joyous that I most like is uh, a big, um, telecommunications company was using Joyous. And there were people who worked for this, uh, this telecommunications company that had to go out and repair physical lines in vans. And there was a particular wrench that was needed like, you know, twenty percent of the time that, and the wrench was not kept in all the vans. And so when the workers needed that wrench, they had to drive all the way back to HQ and then go back and, 

[00:09:54] Amy Sandler: Threw a real wrench in things. 

[00:09:56] Kim Scott: Yeah. Threw a monkey wrench, it was, it made things way less efficient, way more expensive. And it was irritating. Not only was it more expensive for the company. It was sort of boring and irritating for the person who was supposed to fix the line. And, uh, and this complaint came up a lot in the Joyous system. And so they put the wrench in the van and everybody was happier and it saved the company a lot of money. So, uh, happiness and saving money tend to go, um, tend to go hand in hand. And even more than that, happiness and innovation go hand in hand. And so when people, uh, are not burnt out or frustrated by their working environment, they tend to not only quit doing inefficient things, they have great ideas, uh, for things that will actually make money. 

[00:10:52] So it’s good on cost savings, good on innovation too. So that’s number one, is try to figure out a way, uh, for the team to talk to each other to sort of self manage and an ideas team is one, uh, one idea. However, you do still want to have a relationship with these thirty to fifty people. And so there are a couple of specific things that I recommend. Um, one typical solution to this problem is somebody might try to have office hours in lieu of one on ones. And that’s a good instinct, but the problem with office hours, in my experience, is that if you offer office hours to thirty to fifty people, the same three cranks are going to come see you every single week, or maybe they’re not cranks. 

[00:11:47] Amy Sandler: Yeah. 

[00:11:47] Kim Scott: But whatever, the same three people, maybe they’re wonderful people, but you want to hear from everyone. So what I recommend instead of doing that is one, to book an hour a week or maybe even an hour a day depending, to just walk around. And this is an old idea, this is not my idea. Management by walking around, I think Abraham Lincoln used to do that. Uh, so lots of uh, lots of great leaders have managed by walking around. And the idea is that you want to walk around and you notice someone, uh, who you haven’t talked to before and you stop and you just ask them, uh, how’s it going?

[00:12:31] You know, what’s going on? What, you know, is there something I could do or stop doing that would make your day better? Um, so you have these conversations with people or you notice things, uh, that are broken. I can, at one point when I was working at Google, uh, I was, uh, I, we had some sort of, I don’t know, party and everybody had gone back to work and I came out of, I came out of my office and I noticed it was a couch in the wrong place. And so I started pushing the couch back to the right place where it was supposed to go. And this one guy on the team came up and he was just making a joke. I still am friends with this guy. I like this guy, but he was like, oh, ha ha, Kim, you got a new job. And I, it really made me stop in my tracks and I’m like, you don’t want to work at a company where everybody has these narrow job descriptions.

[00:13:29] I don’t want to work at a company where everybody has these narrow job descriptions. Like. If you see something messed up, you fix it. That’s, you know, and so then there became this like theme on Adsense, we move the couches. And I was talking to someone who’s still at Google, still works on that team. And they said, they still say that, they still say, and I left Google in 2010 I think, a long time ago now. Uh, so, you can have a big cultural impact just by walking around, noticing things, and, uh, and fixing them yourself. Like, you’re not above any job, uh, that has a big impact. 

[00:14:15] Amy Sandler: Yeah, it’s such a great story. And I’m curious, Kim, I’m just putting myself in the shoes of somebody whose manager hasn’t been doing this. And now all of a sudden they’re walking and they’re coming over to me and they’re like, how’s it going? And I’m just, I’m trying to think the best, but knowing that my tendency might be like, wait, what did I do wrong? Why are they starting this new thing? So how might a manager want to tee this up to assuage any concerns?

[00:14:44] Kim Scott: Yeah. I mean, I think the key thing is when you’re walking around, you’re never walking around to punish anyone. So you’re not going to, the first time you do this, people might be nervous and the only way out is through, it’s going to be, it might feel uncomfortable. And there’s no way you can make it comfortable from the outset. You have to prove over time that you’re not walking around to punish people. You’re walking around to help them. You want them to be excited, uh, to see you coming. But you don’t want them to feel a sense of dread at your coming. And I think you raise a really good point, which is they’re likely to feel a sense of dread.

[00:15:32] Amy Sandler: Yeah, especially if it’s something new. And it’s sort of, and I think you’re, that’s why your story is so great because not only are you seeing you do the great work. But again, it’s like practicing Radical Candor starting by asking for feedback. But it’s not just a one off, it has to be an ongoing practice and rewarding the candor or else people are going to think that they’re just waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[00:15:52] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, people need to realize that when you’re walking around, things are getting better because you’re walking around, not getting worse. And I think the other thing, excuse me, that’s important to realize you’re the one who’s sick, but I’m the one who’s coughing. 

[00:16:08] Amy Sandler: It’s, you’re mirroring me like you’re the bridge that you really like.

[00:16:14] Kim Scott: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Um, so I think it’s really important to, to realize that because if you’re the manager, you have a little bit of power in the situation, that you are likely to, uh, elicit fear when you walk around. So it is your job, uh, to become approachable and to make people realize the reason you’re walking around is you want, you really care about everybody. You really care about this team and you want to make things better, not worse. 

[00:16:51] Amy Sandler: I think it’s such a great note. I’m glad that you mentioned it. And I’m curious, like, especially if somebody was going to do this, you’d recommended, you know, once a week or even more if possible. Do you have a recommendation for, I mean, for people, some people, this might come really naturally, the checking in and the, you know, how’s it going and what can I do for you. But for people that feel maybe less comfortable with that kind of small talk, uh, do you have any tips? I mean, you talked about having that go to question, but any other just conversation starters that you find helpful for folks that might feel a little nervous about what to say? 

[00:17:29] Kim Scott: Yeah, I totally, first of all, if you hate small talk, I hate small talk too. I feel you. It feels like a total waste of time. Remember that you have a purpose, you have a reason for going around. And the reason for going around is because you’re going to learn important things about what is really happening. You’re going to, you’re going, so, so be genuinely curious. 

[00:17:57] Amy Sandler: Yeah.

[00:17:58] Kim Scott: All those people that are working are making an important contribution to, uh, to the work, to getting things done. And so you want to make sure that you go out there like, oh, I’m going to learn something new.

[00:18:14] Amy Sandler: Yeah. 

[00:18:14] Kim Scott: Uh, and even if you are shy, you probably like the idea of learning something new. I’m gonna make, I’m gonna make life a little better today. Like you’re not gonna solve everything and people are still gonna be unhappy. But who doesn’t want to make life a little better today? Um, so those are the kinds of, because if, look, if I could I wouldn’t even leave my house. I would sit in my garage all day every day. Um, there’s value in getting out there. 

[00:18:46] Amy Sandler: Yeah. And you said two really important things, genuine and curiosity. And I think people can totally sense if it’s genuine, even if you don’t say it just the right way. And I think with curiosity, asking questions and really like you said, like, what can I learn, what can I learn from you? And I think the genuineness is huge. So.

[00:19:05] Kim Scott: Yeah. And so I can’t do the math this fast. But the last thing I will recommend is say you have, um, well, say you have forty-five people, you want to think about how, I would like to do once a day, three fifteen minute one on ones. And try to kind of have them, um, maybe spread out throughout the day because each person is going to have such a different energy. Like one person you’re going to need to console and the next person you’re going to need to consolidate with. And if you have one on one meetings with different people, back to back, you wind up with emotional whiplash in my experience. So I would try to reserve three fifteen minute slots a day to have one on ones with people. Uh, and cycle through the team in some predictable way. Um, this is kind of a scheduling hassle. Um, but if you can swing it, I think that would be really helpful. So you do get a little bit of one on one time. But you just, you gotta have low expectations of how much you can say in fifteen minutes. How much you’re going to get to, you’re not going to build this deep relationship with someone.

[00:20:23] Amy Sandler: What do you, given that, and that there’s, you know, you talk a lot in one on ones about how, you know, it’s in service of the direct reports agenda. You’re there to clear obstacles. You’re there to solicit feedback. If they could only do one thing in that fifteen minutes, what is the top priority? 

[00:20:38] Kim Scott: I think the top priority, here, well, I’m going to do two. I’m not going to answer your question. 

[00:20:43] Amy Sandler: Okay.

[00:20:43] Kim Scott: I’m going to do two things. I would spend sort of twelve minutes, so the vast majority of that fifteen minutes I would spend, you know, what’s on your mind. Like anything’s fair game, from furniture to strategy. I would ask people to come with an agenda. If they come in, and they say, I don’t really have anything to talk to you about. Say, well, why don’t we take three minutes of silence and you think about it. It’s okay that you didn’t prepare, like, don’t get mad at them, but don’t let them off the hook either.

[00:21:15] And it’ll be an uncomfortable, I promise you, if you say we’re going to have, I’m going to give you three minutes to think about it, that person will think, uh, in fact, somebody I coached just did this. And he was like, wow, that really worked. Because people would come into his one on one and they’d say, I don’t have anything. And he would say, okay, well, you can have the time back. And I said, just give them a few minutes. And he said, I learned all kinds of stuff. So really let people know that they should come prepared with an agenda and, uh, and listen to that agenda, whatever it is, try to respond though. Your goal here is to listen to people, to help them clarify their thinking, and then to help them figure out what to do next.

[00:22:00] It’s really important in that twelve minutes, somebody is going to come in and they’re going to say like, this machine is broken. Why haven’t you fixed it? Don’t accept that task. It’s not your job to fix it. It’s your job to help them figure out how to get it fixed, right? Um, because if you try to, everybody’s going to have a complaint when they come in. And if you try to fix, address every complaint and you’re having three one on ones a day, you’re going to, you’re going to be, you’re going to start canceling those one on ones. I can promise you. So don’t take on everyone’s problem. 

[00:22:38] Amy Sandler: That is so interesting. Okay, so you’re saying, I’m complaining because the machine I’m working on is broken.

[00:22:46] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:22:46] Amy Sandler: And you’re, and so, you, you want me to figure out how I’m going to get it fixed rather than dumping it into your lap, right? I mean, you’re going to help me though. You’re going to help me with it, but you want me to take some, some ownership of the broken machine. 

[00:23:03] Kim Scott: Yes, because, because you, you, the manager, a manager of fifty people cannot fix everything that’s broken. And there’s a lot, with fifty people, 

[00:23:14] Amy Sandler: There’s going to be a lot broken.

[00:23:15] Kim Scott: And a whole, there’s going to be a lot of shit that is suboptimal, uh, and, and it’s tempting to deal with that by not knowing about it, but that’s really not productive. That’s denial. Um, so, but,

[00:23:33] Amy Sandler: So how do you find that balance? Like, how do you know when you have to jump in and when, uh, you’re really wanting the direct report? I mean, is it, is it really just a matter of being very clear about sort of who’s ultimately responsible for, for what?

[00:23:47] Kim Scott: I mean, it helps to be, but you’re never going to be able to predict all the things that are, so, so there’s no amount, you can’t clarify your way out of this. Uh, I don’t think. Uh, there’s no amount of clarity of roles that will, ’cause something’s gonna break that’s in between two people. And, so your job as the boss, where there’s all this shit is going, is breaking and is suboptimal and everything could be better. And sometimes things are really disastrously bad. Uh, and your job is to know about it without freaking out. Uh, that’s your job. And to figure out not, you can’t fix everything, but to figure out productive ways for people to move in the direction of a solution to most of these problems.

[00:24:41] I mean, there are things that it’s truly your job to fix. Um, I mean, if somebody comes and tells you, you devastated so and so on the team, was something you said, like, that’s your job to fix that, right? Uh, but knowing that, you know, there is, you know, there’s, let’s say the, go back to the broken machine. There’s probably a machine shop, like, did you talk to so and so. And they don’t have any time to fix it. Well, maybe send it to the ideas team. Like, help the team learn and, and be, make yourself vulnerable. Like I can’t fix everything. I’m one person. And so my job is to help you find the solution. My job is not to fix it. And just remember that 

[00:25:31] Amy Sandler: Kim, that is so good. I mean, there’s a couple things. One is about not freaking out with every problem, but also empowering the team. And I just, I feel like this, this wisdom is born from some experience. So do you have, do you have any story and it may be in the book, but just that you may have tried to fix too many problems. 

[00:25:51] Kim Scott: Oh my gosh. I mean, I always, I always want to fix everybody’s problem. Like one of the things that has been hardest for me to learn at work, but also in my marriage and as a parent is, somebody comes to you with a big problem, a broken machine. And you’re like, my husband now will say to me, I do not want you to fix this problem. I just want you to listen. I’m like, oh yeah. Uh, and sometimes when I jump into solutions mode, he’s like, do you hear how arrogant you sound? Do you think I haven’t thought of that? You know, I’m like, oh yeah, oh yeah. Um, or my kids are like, you have no idea what life is like in, uh, in high school now, you know. Um, and I’m like, do you want to hear what it was like for me? No, I do not. So, so I think a lot of this is realizing your first job in the one on one is to listen. And, uh, and, and then sometimes a good follow up question is, do you want me, you know, do you want me to listen or do you want me to try to help you, you know, uh, if you’re not, if you’re not sure. Uh, but your first job is to listen and to, and to like, just express some compassion for what, that, do not jump into fix it mode. It’s, it’s not, it’s not good for the other person. It’s not good for your relationship. And you can’t fix all those problems. It’s like, it’s a sort of arrogance to say, ah, I can fix every problem everybody brings me. 

[00:27:34] Amy Sandler: Yeah. And it’s just going to lead to burnout and then folks not feeling as, as empowered.

[00:27:39] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:27:39] Amy Sandler: Yeah, but it takes some real self discipline and self awareness. 

[00:27:42] Kim Scott: It’s hard, it’s like listening. It’s really interesting, I read this fascinating book over the weekend about listening. It’s a book about music streaming and the author of the book made a really good point. It’s called Mood Machine if anybody’s interested, but made a really good point that, um, music, uh, there’s a big difference between doing nothing and listen, not doing nothing, between listening to music and truly listening to music and not multitasking, not listening to music while you’re driving or doing the dishes or, um, you know, you know, having dinner, but like going to listen to music. It’s a very active thing and, background music. And so you want to make sure when you’re, when you are having these fifteen minute one on ones, like that, that you are fully listening to this person. I know, Amy, you have a lot of words of wisdom on active listening and on mindful listening. 

[00:28:44] Amy Sandler: Yeah. I mean, just as you were saying that, that’s what was coming to mind, was I would so much rather have, not even fifteen minutes, five minutes of someone’s full and present attention than an hour meeting where they’re not at all paying attention to me. Because now we’ve just wasted an hour and I feel unimportant. And so just being really present, and so I think, you know, from what you’re saying in the book, it’s very interesting with music because I think there’s also a sense of like full body listening. Like getting signals, not just from the cognition of like, what is the content of what’s being said, but also where is it landing in your body?

[00:29:21] What, what emotions are underneath there? And the exercise that we’ll often do in workshops, the focus listening that you’re talking about, is where, you know, you might talk for two minutes about a certain prompt, and we like to leave the prompts, give you some examples, but have, you could talk about, you know, what’s surprising to you about your work or what’s hard for you about Radical Candor. But you really have the permission to go anywhere because I am not going to interrupt you. Like, and you know that I’m not going to interrupt you because my only job is to be present with you. 

[00:29:52] And what’s fascinating when we do that, is that there’s this moment when people finish their first thought like, oh, well, what’s, you know, hard for me about Radical Candor is, you know, I don’t want to hurt people’s feelings or whatever. And then there’s this silence. And if you have the discipline to sit in that silence, that discomfort that you’ve talked so often about Kim, people will often go deeper into something that really matters. And so that’s, and that’s what where actually like the full body listening, because then it actually drops from like a cognitive connection into more of an emotional resonance with the other person. And I suspect even with the music, that’s what’s happening. Is it’s speaking to all the different parts of your body. 

[00:30:37] Kim Scott: So maybe we should do the exercise. But before we jump in, if you’re comfortable. So I would love to try, it’s very hard for me. You’re a very good active listener. We’ll see if I can do it. So, maybe I’ll listen to you, but I’ll tell you a story about getting it wrong. So I was working with someone and this person was having, uh, every sort of February, had some seasonal affective disorder and was talking to me about this and, this is what not to do. I was like, oh, I’ve got this great place in Hawaii. You should just go there and it’ll solve. And this guy was so mad at me, you know, it was like, so don’t do that. Like, that’s an example of trying to jump into solution mode when I just should have listened. 

[00:31:21] Amy Sandler: And, you know, it’s, it’s human nature to, and we talked about me not feeling well, so here’s my cough. It’s human nature. Um, you know, we, we make connections from our own experience, but that’s really much more about our own agenda than about the other person, but you can give yourself a break. That, that tends to be how we’re wired. Uh, okay, so you want me to, to talk for two minutes, uh, on the spot and see if you’ll listen.

[00:31:48] Kim Scott: Yeah. About anything that’s on your mind. 

[00:31:50] Amy Sandler: Okay. 

[00:31:51] Kim Scott: And this, by the way, the listener can do in every in every one on one. Like, this is a great way to spend two minutes of a one on one. Whether it’s only a fifteen minute one on one, or an hour long one on one.

[00:32:13] Amy Sandler: To tee it up the way that we like to do for for safety is, like, me as the speaker, I have permission to say whatever’s on my mind, you know, because I can trust that my listener, Kim, is giving me her full attention. I’m aware that this is going to a public audience. So I might you know, be a little more mindful, but in general, how deep I’m gonna go.

[00:32:37] Kim Scott: It’s, yeah, listening in public is, 

[00:32:40] Amy Sandler: Listening and speaking in public. But, but the point here is, you know, so often, and especially with Radical Candor in the workplace, we’re so intentional about what we’re saying and how we’re saying it and how is it going to land for the other person. And in this exercise, you want to give the speaker, just to throw that all out, and just show up however for, for the two minutes. So we’ll, we’ll try this as an experiment. Kim, do you have any prompts for me that you want to throw at me? 

[00:33:05] Kim Scott: I would love to hear about whatever’s on your mind. 

[00:33:08] Amy Sandler: Okay. Whatever’s on my mind. Well, what’s on my mind is what Kim referenced, which is that I have not been feeling well. Today is Monday and, uh, overnight, Friday into Saturday, I was seized by what I believe is the Norovirus and I’ve never, I have not felt that sick in probably decades. To the point that I was not even sure I could text people to be like, hey, if you don’t hear from me, I can’t really get to any liquids and I know I need water, but it seems so hard and so far away. And I’m kind of laughing about it now, but there’s such a vulnerability when you are really, really sick and it’s very humbling. And I live alone. And so it just, there was, there’s just that moment when you just feel really, really sick and you feel alone. And I just, uh, I am grateful right now to have enough energy to be having this conversation. And it was not that long ago that I, that I felt that way, and I haven’t felt that way in so long. So it’s, uh, it’s just a really interesting touch point. Um, and then, you know, just all the logistics of, okay, well, uh, I’ve got work on Monday and I’m doing a TED talk coming up soon. And, you know, all of those things that we think about, uh, kind of ran through, ran through my mind.

[00:34:37] Kim Scott: I’m so sorry that you were that sick. Uh, that is awful. That is really awful. Um, how long, how long, uh, just now, now I’m going to break, I’m going to break. 

[00:34:47] Amy Sandler: Okay, now we’ve, how was it to listen?

[00:34:50] Kim Scott: It was, you know, it was really hard. There were two moments when I really wanted to jump in and tell you my story about feeling super sick.

[00:34:59] Amy Sandler: What, what were they? 

[00:35:00] Kim Scott: And I didn’t do it. So, uh, but I’ll tell you mine in a second, but, but first I want to ask a question. One of the things that I was aware of is that I was nodding and saying, I feel like total silence wouldn’t have been right. Like for you to say you felt that sick and for me not to say, I’m really sorry, in the moment was hard.

[00:35:20] Amy Sandler: Yeah. 

[00:35:21] Kim Scott: Should I have just said, I’m really sorry. 

[00:35:23] Amy Sandler: No. Well, it’s a great note. And also like in the exercise, we’ll kind of acknowledge like at the most, like you can nod your head or, you know, just sort of be with the person, but there’s, we’ve set the ground rules. So there’s not an expectation of you jumping in.

[00:35:36] Kim Scott: Okay. 

[00:35:36] Amy Sandler: And, and for whatever it’s worth also, like we’re doing this, I’m looking into a camera and also just, I have some vision challenges. So it’s actually easier for me to like, not look at you in the camera. I’m just sort of looking out into the great beyond to all the listeners who now know about the trauma of the last weekend. And so that’s also something very interesting about doing this virtually versus when you’re doing this in person. And you actually are like looking in their eyes and sort of looking away. So just and by the way, some people really like that. They like the disambiguation. If that’s the right use of that, like through the, the media because they feel like it actually forces them to be more present. So I think again, like anything, some things are going to land differently for different people, but no, I totally felt you were there with me. Um, so I did not need the, the words. 

[00:36:25] Kim Scott: Good. Okay. Thank you. Um, so I’d really encourage people to practice this, uh, in their one on one. To really try to spend a couple of minutes in every one on one just listening and truly not saying anything. And try even, you know, not to be too theatrical with your facial expressions. Like try to remain neutral and open, you know. It’s hard. It’s surprisingly hard. 

[00:36:53] Amy Sandler: Yeah. 

[00:36:54] Kim Scott: I will say, since we’re now, since I’m allowed to talk, and, I can, 

[00:37:00] Amy Sandler: Out of candor jail. 

[00:37:02] Kim Scott: That it is really hard, I remember one time when I was living in New York, I was living alone, and I got the, I got a terrible flu, I was supposed to be gone, out of town, so like, nobody even, everybody I knew thought I was out of town. And I got, I don’t know what kind of flu, but I, I, similar kind of thing. And I had a dog and I was in a fourth floor walk up. So like I had to walk, I had to like get down the stairs. And I got down to the bottom of the stairs and it was super hot. It was like a heat wave. The door had swollen shut. 

[00:37:36] Amy Sandler: Oh my god. 

[00:37:37] Kim Scott: And I was not strong enough to open, I had to bang on the door and have some stranger walk by, like wrench, it was awful. So for all the folks out there who are getting Norovirus or all these other viruses that are going around and are alone, I feel, I feel for you. It’s really hard. 

[00:37:59] Amy Sandler: We are with you and it’s actually really nice to know that we can, we can get through it as well. 

[00:38:04] Kim Scott: Yes. Yes. Um, but call for help.

[00:38:06] Amy Sandler: Yeah. 

[00:38:07] Kim Scott: Do call. We do have 911. If you need it, use it. 

[00:38:14] Amy Sandler: I knew I could, if I really needed it, so thank you. 

[00:38:17] Kim Scott: Well, thank you for doing this podcast today. I know it’s hard. I know you’re better, but it’s still hard. 

[00:38:22] Amy Sandler: Yeah. Thank you. Well, you know and maybe this is a really good message for folks that we can show up at work and, and do our best. And, uh, and sometimes it might not be our actual best, but it can be good enough. Uh, so thank you for, for that space. Do you think we’re ready for our tips? 

[00:38:39] Kim Scott: Yes. Almost ready. I have one other thing. So I said the first twelve minutes of the one on one. 

[00:38:44] Amy Sandler: Oh, yeah. 

[00:38:45] Kim Scott: The last three minutes I recommend soliciting. 

[00:38:47] Amy Sandler: Who said you weren’t good at math?

[00:38:48] Kim Scott: I recommend soliciting feedback at the end. Just ask people on a regular basis, uh, what can I do or stop doing? The last thing, which is not answering the question, is I would consider trying to put, um, trying to put a management structure in place. It’s an opportunity, there’s an opportunity here for people to be, to manage others and to put a little hierarchy in place. I know people have an allergic reaction to that word for lots of good reasons. But there’s, there’s evidence and we’ll drop it into the show notes. Kieran Snyder has done, uh, has done some work that shows when, when a manager has more than five direct reports, they just don’t have the time to do the things that are best practice to do as a manager. So, so anyway, if possible, it’s a great way to create some career opportunities for people to put a little hierarchy in place. It may be against the rules in your company, so that may not be possible. 

[00:39:47] Amy Sandler: Now it’s time for our Radical Candor checklist. Tips to start putting Radical Candor into practice. 

[00:39:54] Kim Scott: Tip number one. For the person managing thirty to fifty people, consider implementing an ideas team. A system for listening to suggestions from all levels of an organization. The key purpose is to ensure that everyone’s ideas are valued and heard and some of them actually get acted upon. When you have an ideas team in place it’s important to regularly address suggestions. And explain why some ideas are pursued while others are not. But again, the ideas team can do this. The manager doesn’t have to do it. All the manager has to do is to promise to take one or two actions a week. An ideas team can ensure that employees are heard and valued and that they’re great ideas are put into practice, even when their specific idea isn’t implemented it’s important.

[00:40:44] Amy Sandler: Tip number two. For our listener and other folks in similar situations, walking around the shop floor or an open office is a powerful way to build relationships and stay connected with your team. When you’re physically present and walking around, you can naturally pick up on people’s mental states. They’re, they’re emotional state. Maybe they seem energized or discouraged, maybe focused or distracted, without having to schedule formal check ins. And these impromptu interactions where you’re demonstrating genuine curiosity can create opportunities for quick, timely feedback conversations that feel more natural than scheduled meetings.

[00:41:28] Kim Scott: Tip number three. Make the most of the time you have, when you do have one on ones, by being fully present and focused. In open environments, there can be many distractions, but it’s essential to show that you care personally by giving your full attention. Put your phone away, turn off notifications, and position yourself to minimize visual distractions. If you’re interrupted, apologize, and quickly get back to focusing on your direct report. This demonstrates respect for their time and shows that you value these conversations. By the way, these conversations could happen in the parking lot if it’s too noisy on the shop floor. 

[00:42:07] Amy Sandler: For more tips, check out our YouTube channel where you can not only listen to this podcast, but also watch dozens of other Radical Candor videos. To get this podcast early and ad free go to RadicalCandor.com/community. Show notes for this episode are at RadicalCandor.com/podcast. Praise in public, criticize in private So if you like what you hear, we hope you do, please do follow, rate, and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts. It really does help. And if you’ve got criticism go ahead email it, podcast@RadicalCandor.com. Bye for now. 

[00:42:44] Kim Scott: Take care everyone. And remember, if you don’t like what you hear, we really want to hear about it. So let us know. 

[00:42:50] Amy Sandler: Thank you. 

[00:42:51] Kim Scott: Take care. 

[00:42:52] Amy Sandler: The Radical Candor podcast is based on the book Radical Candor: Be a Kick Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity by Kim Scott. Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal, with script editing by me, Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co founders, Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff, and is hosted by me, still Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn, Radical Candor the company, and visit us at RadicalCandor.com. 

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Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer.

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