Closing the Loop: Radical Candor FAQ Finale 6 | 29

Episode at a Glance

Radical Candor Podcast Checklist  

1. when someone gets defensive in response to your feedback, stay calm, avoid getting defensive yourself. And focus on helping them move past their initial reaction for a productive conversation. Get curious, not furious.
2. Radical Candor is a universal human concept. But the specific implementation needs to be tailored to the individual. So if you’re working with teams in different cultures, different countries, you need to be really aware of how your feedback and communication style is being received. The key is to be clear about your intentions to practice Radical Candor and ask people to give you feedback on how your interactions are landing.
3. In personal relationships, practice Radical Candor by communicating compassionately while being willing to have tough conversations. Even when uncomfortable, to strengthen bonds and support growth.
4. Radical Candor encourages accountability, resolves conflicts early before escalation, creates an environment of trust and psychological safety where people feel empowered to take risks, innovate, and feel more engaged, motivated, and connected to the team and mission.

The TLDR Radical Candor Podcast Transcript

[00:00:00] Kim Scott: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Radical Candor podcast. I’m Kim Scott. 

[00:00:06] Jason Rosoff: I’m Jason Rosoff. 

[00:00:08] Amy Sandler: And I’m Amy Sandler. You’ve got questions, we’ve got answers. Today we’ve got Kim and Jason answering some of our most frequently asked questions about Radical Candor. We’ve got a bunch of questions, so let’s jump right in. And one of the questions that we often get asked, I’m going to start with Kim. So put your thinking cap on. Does Radical Candor work differently in different cultures or with teams in different countries? 

[00:00:37] Kim Scott: Yes. And it also works differently with individuals. We say often that Radical Candor gets measured, not at the speaker’s mouth, but at the listener’s ear. So it’s really important to be aware of the culture where you’re operating, of the team within that culture, and of the individual. 

[00:00:56] So, for example, I, at one point in my career, was managing teams in, I think, twenty different countries. Uh, and believe me, Radical Candor sounded very different in the Netherlands than it did in Japan. Uh, in fact, with the team in Japan, I called it polite persistence because polite was the way that that team liked to think about showing that they cared personally. And persistence was an easier way for that team in Japan to think about challenging directly. 

[00:01:29] But if I had gone to the Netherlands and said, we’re going to be politely persistent, they would have thought I was talking about manipulative insincerity because the culture in the Netherlands is very direct. But even within the team, uh, in the Netherlands that, you know, the norms of communication were very different on the, amongst the engineers than in the sales team, for example. Uh, and so Radical Candor sounded differently and it’s not only across countries that Radical Candor sounds very different.

[00:02:06] When I moved from New York to California to take a job out here in California, someone sent me a map of the United States and there was someone in New York, and it was a cartoon, and there was someone in New York saying, fuck you, and thinking, have a nice day. But someone, sorry this is not PG 13, cover your children’s ears, and someone, 

[00:02:28] Amy Sandler: After the fact. 

[00:02:29] Kim Scott: Someone in California, uh, never repeat this, children, someone in California saying, have a nice day, but thinking F U. And so, uh, so I thought, oh gosh, you know, I, I know passive aggressive cultures. I’ll do fine in California, but I also felt a little bit stressed out about it. So I think it’s really important to remember that you need to adjust how you’re talking based on the culture where you are. Being, showing up authentically does not mean ignoring the impact that you’re having on other people or on a particular culture. 

[00:03:10] I would also say that it’s important not to make generalizations based on culture. There was a guy on my team who was Italian and he complained to me that people seemed to think that he wanted kisses on the cheeks because he’s Italian and he didn’t want to be kissed on the cheeks all the time. So you want to make sure that you’re really focused on the individual, but also aware of the culture that you’re in.

[00:03:40] Jason Rosoff: The value of being aware of cultural differences is it allows you to, uh, to be aware of like an obvious mistake that you might make. And it’s the same issue, the same issue arises when thinking about cultural differences and your approach to communication, as arises in population level studies that are done.

[00:04:03] So, for example, you might hear a study that says women tend to prefer X and men tend to prefer Y. But when you dig under the cover of those studies, what you find is that variance inside a population is much bigger than variance between populations. So the difference between what men want and what women want might be there, but quite small. But if you look at the differences between what women want when just compared to each other, the variance is huge. 

[00:04:30] So we want to remember that we don’t want to treat people as though they’re a monolith. Whether that monolith is created by the culture they’re from, the ethnicity that they have, the race that they have, the gender that they have, etcetera.

[00:04:43] Kim Scott: Yeah. What’s true on average is rarely true for a specific person. But that, in fact, that there’s an interesting study where they were designing cockpits for the average size pilot and that cockpit worked for zero pilots. So, uh, zero actual pilots. So reading a study on what’s true on average is, is rarely going to help you, uh, communicate well with a specific individual person. 

[00:05:14] Jason Rosoff: Yep.

[00:05:14] Amy Sandler: Kim, I’m curious when we look at this idea around cultural differences and what we’re talking about, obviously about focusing on the individual. But one thing I’ve heard, and I’m sure you’ve gotten this, is the sense of, oh, well, Radical Candor, you know, has a very American orientation, or it’s coming from Silicon Valley, etcetera.

[00:05:34] So I’m curious, how have you responded to that question of just the actual kind of cultural, um, context in which Radical Candor was written? 

[00:05:43] Kim Scott: Well, I mean, my career has been pretty international, especially before I moved to Silicon Valley, but even after I did, I mean, I began my career actually working in Moscow. Uh, in what was then the Soviet Union. I, uh, got, a lot of what I learned about Radical Candor I learned working at an Israeli startup. Uh, and so I’ve worked in a lot of different, uh, a lot of different cultures. Um, I, uh, as I mentioned, I managed teams in twenty different countries all around the world. Uh, so I think that, you know, at a certain level, Radical Candor’s about love and truth at the same time.

[00:06:23] And those are pretty universal human values. There’s not a culture that doesn’t value love and truth. I mean, there are individuals, perhaps, who don’t value love and truth. But as a general rule, we, all humans value love and truth. Those are universal, but it’s culturally relative. And so you’ve got to make sure, the way that we express love and truth differs quite, uh, quite dramatically across cultures and between individuals.

[00:06:51] Amy Sandler: Thank you. 

[00:06:52] Kim Scott: Jason was going to say something a second ago. One of the things that is true on average is that men interrupt women more, but Amy, I think you and I interrupt Jason more than he interrupts us. Did we, did I in fact interrupt you, Jason? 

[00:07:07] Jason Rosoff: In this case, you did not. I think I heard the squeak of the hose. Uh, someone turned the faucet on outside and it caught my attention. 

[00:07:18] Kim Scott: Oh, okay. 

[00:07:19] Jason Rosoff: Apologize for distracting everybody. Back to the job at hand. 

[00:07:22] Kim Scott: No worries.

[00:07:22] Amy Sandler: Well, luckily this isn’t the case in this group, but one question we get a lot of is, what if the other person is incredibly defensive? Jason?

[00:07:35] Jason Rosoff: Kim almost interrupted me. 

[00:07:39] Amy Sandler: Kim is having to put a, put a mask over her mouth and take a drink. 

[00:07:46] Jason Rosoff: I want to acknowledge that the other person being very defensive can be incredibly frustrating. And what I, what I like to think about when the other person is defensive, I like to think about, not just notice what is happening, but get curious about why it is happening. Because my experience has taught me that most people care about doing good work. Most people want to do good work. So if you’re sharing something with somebody that, at least in theory, would be, would help them do their work better, there is probably a world in which they would be open to hearing about that.

[00:08:22] But for whatever reason, in this moment, they are not behaving, uh, in an open way, uh, to your feedback, . The question is why. And so I think the, uh, I don’t know who coined the phrase, but the pithy way to say that is get curious, not furious. Because the worst thing you can do when someone else gets defensive is get angry at them, become annoyed at them because they are defensive, because that essentially takes us down, you know, a negative emotional sort of rat hole in the conversation, and it’s harder to dig out of there.

[00:08:56] So the response that I, uh, will often have when somebody is defensive is just to notice, to say, hey, I’m noticing that, you know, you seem to be defensive to the feedback that I’m offering. And I’m wondering, like, what’s causing this? Is it something I’m doing in this moment that’s leading to that reaction.

[00:09:16] Kim Scott: I think, I think that’s exactly right. You want to look sort of internally first. And maybe even, because sometimes people, if you say I’m noticing you’re getting defensive, they get defensive about being defensive. So sometimes I find it useful to say, it feels like I didn’t say this just right. Is there a better way I could have said what I said? 

[00:09:40] I think the other, the other part, I’m going to tell three different stories about three different situations with specific people in my past where I gave them some feedback and they got very defensive. 

[00:09:52] In the first case, this person just sort of brushed my feedback off. He was, uh, he had a reputation on his team for being very, negative and being intimidating, and people didn’t want to, people were afraid to go talk to him. And so I had been talking to him about this and pointing out instances when it happened and he kept kind of brushing me off, brushing me off. And finally, I sat down with him and I, I sort of said very strongly, like, this is really gonna hurt you in your career. And, so I push, I pushed really hard. And he grabbed his head, he rocked back and forth, and he said, uh, My wife has been telling me this for my whole life and all her friends think I hate them and I don’t hate them and, you know, and I realized the reason, now I understood why he was defensive. He was very, he didn’t think this was something he could change about himself.

[00:10:51] And so I realized in that case that what I needed to do was to focus on the positive. Uh, and to say, look, I don’t experience you as intimidating or as negative. And so what I’m going to do for the next three months is point out every time you get this right. And we’ll figure out what you can do, ’cause you know how, you know how to have these conversations in a way that opens people up, it doesn’t shut them down. And that was, we wound up working through it and figuring out what he was, when he was doing it right and when he was doing, doing it wrong and what he could do about it. 

[00:11:31] There was another case where, with a different person, where he kept making different versions of a similar mistake with people. And finally he made sort of what I consider to be almost a catastrophic mistake. It was, he almost got fired as a result, not by me, but by my boss. And so I knew I had to give him the feedback much more strongly. And so I went into that meeting and I, like, I kept pushing until out, you know, moving out on the challenge directly dimension, until he finally, he burst into tears and then I knew that I had gotten through. And, uh, and, um, we’re still, we still have a good relationship to this day. But he was really making a mistake that was going to kill his career unless he fixed it. And it was fixable, but he needed to acknowledge that it was a mistake. 

[00:12:31] There was another time, a third time, where I was in a similar situation. I’d been giving someone feedback, been giving him feedback, been giving him feedback, and he kept brushing me off. And in that case, I realized that if I kept going out on the challenge directly dimension, if I pushed him, I was going to maybe push him over an edge, uh, that was going to do real damage. And that the kinder thing in that case was simply to, to let him go, to fire him. And that’s a really hard thing. Like, do you push someone so hard that they, like getting past that defensiveness, you’re getting into a danger zone, I think. And, and sort of figuring out whether it’s worth it to, whether the person can fix the problem, where they can hear the thing, or whether they cannot hear the thing for some reason that you just need to acknowledge. I don’t know. What do you all think about that? 

[00:13:32] Amy Sandler: Yeah. What’s coming up, Kim, as you’re sharing that is an exercise I have found really valuable in workshops, which is when we go through, um, this idea of this person isn’t hearing you for some reason. And let’s say they’re not hearing you because they’re feeling defensive.

[00:13:47] But to Jason’s point, we don’t know why they’re feeling defensive. And to what you shared, there’s maybe they’re angry, maybe they’re sad, maybe they don’t know, um, whether they can fix it. Maybe they don’t know that they need to fix it. Maybe they don’t want to fix it. We don’t really know.

[00:14:01] And so one of my favorite things to do is to ask the, the group that I’m working with, what would work for you in that case? When you are feeling defensive, what would be the most helpful thing that someone else could do for you? And I think it’s helpful to have these conversations with the people that we work with when we are not feeling defensive, when we’re actually feeling present.

[00:14:24] And so I know we’ve done a similar thing. We talked about, you know, how would you want to, uh, be worked with or, spoken to if you were, um, uh, experiencing a strong emotion. And I know Kim, one of the things that you’ve said, you don’t want to really make a big deal of it. I’m aware. I want to name my emotion. I probably will want to take some time. Um, Jason, I think you also are aware and naming your emotions. Um, I don’t want to speak for you, but I’m curious, like if you were feeling really defensive in the moment, what would be the most helpful thing that someone could do for you? And I’ll start with Jason.

[00:15:01] Jason Rosoff: Um, I mean, I think just be willing to accept that emotion. I think what I was trying to say before was that, I hope that I have a reputation of, with the people that I work with, of wanting to do a really good job. And so if I’m acting defensively, there, there is some underlying reason. And so like patience and, and grace is like the thing that I most want from, from other people if I’m reacting defensively.

[00:15:28] And I think the, because it’s so interesting, Kim, like in your examples, there was a commonality between them, which is that the person was sort of downplaying the feedback. I’ve definitely been in a situation where the version of defensiveness that I get is the person almost seems offended. Not just defensive, but like, 

[00:15:47] Kim Scott: Yeah. How dare you say that about me. ? 

[00:15:52] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. Uh, yeah. There was a guy that I worked with, uh, who had a reputation, um, similar to your story, had a reputation for being a bit of a bully. Um, and it was so outside of his self perception that when I shared that with him, it was as though I said he was, you know, uh, he was murdering puppies. You know what I’m saying? 

[00:16:14] He took it to mean like, like that I was saying there’s something fundamentally wrong with him that was so outside of his frame that he could not accept it. But the reaction that I got was like, you are an idiot, right? Like, you are wrong. You cannot possibly be right. 

[00:16:31] Kim Scott: He tried to bully you out of telling him that he was being a bully. What the fuck are you talking about. 

[00:16:37] Jason Rosoff: That is exactly how, I was, I was sort of, and I remember sitting there in the moment and, and it was not intimidating, um, to me, even though this guy was quite a bit taller than me. And he was standing at my desk. He had stopped into my office and he refused to sit down. It was one of those conversations where I was like, this is going, this is already going poorly. And we’re three seconds in. And I remember, instead of feeling intimidated, I felt compa, like, I felt this, this wave of compassion for this person. Because I could tell that it would, like it touched some nerve. Um, and I sort of sat patiently and took the, the onslaught, like, took the, like, he, he sort of burned himself out after about forty-five seconds of yelling at me.

[00:17:26] And I said, you know, I know how much it matters to you to, to do a good job managing this team. I know how much it matters to you. Um, I said, consider what I’ve said. I, you don’t have to accept what I’m saying now, but consider what I’ve said. And if you want to talk about it again, I’ll make myself available anytime today. Stop back at my office. And, uh, and like three hours later, he wandered back into my office and he said, okay, I accept that sometimes I say things a little more harshly than I might intend. Um, and I was like, okay, like we, you know, we can work with this. And I think it was like my reaction of one, not reacting.

[00:18:11] You know what I’m saying? I think he was hoping that he pushed my buttons. He would get me to re, you know, to react negatively. So that was one thing, is like keeping my cool in that moment was really helpful. And the second thing was like, I’m open to this. I, I’m hoping you’re open to a conversation about this when you’re ready, come back and talk to me. Um, and I think that pattern has served me pretty, Jack is very upset. 

[00:18:38] Amy Sandler: Jack has a lot to say about this story. 

[00:18:42] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. Jack. 

[00:18:43] Amy Sandler: He’s like, I don’t like the idea of someone yelling at my dad. 

[00:18:46] Jason Rosoff: I know exactly what’s happening right now. He is giving feedback to the, um, the UPS person.

[00:18:52] Kim Scott: Yeah. It doesn’t, do not come here right now.

[00:18:56] Jason Rosoff: Uh, the boxes are the enemy. In any case I think the, um, the point of all this is, is that if we can ourselves maintain a stance of sort of openness, in some cases that’s really helpful to other people. Um, by dem, by sort of like showing what it is to, to be open to someone’s emotional response. And that was a big lesson for me. And it’s something that I really value and other people do it for me. 

[00:19:25] Kim Scott: I think the thing about defensiveness is it’s easy to get defensive about the other person’s defensiveness and then your emotions kind of resonate. It’s like, what’s that bridge where the resonance, the wind, the Tacoma state bridge.

[00:19:40] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. 

[00:19:41] Amy Sandler: I think you mentioned that on a previous podcast because I looked it up and I didn’t know what you were talking about, but I, it had Tacoma. 

[00:19:47] Kim Scott: Yeah. We, should put a link to it in there because to me, it’s like the perfect visual representation of what can happen with emotional resonance. If someone gets mad and you get mad back and then they get more mad and then you get more mad, like the whole communication can tear itself apart. So I think if the person is defensive and you can remain calm, that’s the most important thing you can do for them. 

[00:20:13] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. 

[00:20:13] Amy Sandler: Kim, I think when you heard Jason’s story, what was coming up for me, when you think about Radical Respect and this fine line between showing up, especially if you’re a manager, um, and showing up in a way that’s modeling patience and grace like Jason did for this person.

[00:20:34] And at what point does the person as the manager, especially if you’re maybe underrepresented, I’m just putting myself in that situation. If I, you know, felt much smaller and potentially not as safe with somebody yelling at me, like, how are you thinking about those examples when you layer in power and some of the other ideas in Radical Respect?

[00:20:55] Kim Scott: As Jason was telling his story, I was having two thoughts. One is that that person gave him a great gift by sort of, you told him he was a bully and then he tried to bully you out of telling him he was a thing. And so if you can, in the moment, use that, say, I know you don’t intend to be bullying me right now, but that’s how I’m experiencing what you’re doing. So this is an example of what I’m talking about, like your reaction is. Uh, so sometimes you, you can do that. Uh, I think the other thing I was thinking, Jason, as you were telling that story, as when I wrote Radical Respect, I was at one point describing a situation where someone who was working for me was, one foot and six inches taller than I. A lot taller than I, I mean, I’m very short. But, uh, but he was very tall and physically intimidating, you know, kind of a big, big guy. And I had to tell him, uh, something, and I was especially nervous to tell him, but just because he was physically bigger than I was. 

[00:22:11] And I wrote that, and somebody who edited the book was like, that’s ridiculous, you knew he wasn’t gonna hit you. And it’s true, I did know he wasn’t gonna hit me, but there is, there is something about being physically small that, uh, for me, at least, that maybe makes it more likely that I’m, that, to default to silence, uh, when speaking with someone who’s physically much larger than I am. Sometimes. Other times, maybe I’m more like Jack, uh, a small, uh, being, who’s, and I think both. 

[00:22:49] Jason Rosoff: Who loudly expresses, uh, your discontent. 

[00:22:52] Kim Scott: Yes, yes. Both can happen. Both things can happen. 

[00:22:56] Jason Rosoff: Yeah, I definitely had the thought, like, uh, you know, you remember this stuff years, years later, like the feeling, the emotions of those moments. Like, I don’t remember exactly the words were that I said. But I remember having a thought, if he hits me, uh, like I’m done, like I’m not, I’m not getting, I’m not getting up from that. You know what I mean? Not that he’s going to kill me, but like, I’m like, there’s no way I physically win this. 

[00:23:21] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:23:21] Jason Rosoff: And so that was like, why in my head I was like, you have to keep your cool because if it escalates, like you, like, that’s a lose, it’s a losing proposition on all fronts. Um, and so that was definitely what was in my mind. But, uh, Amy,

[00:23:37] Kim Scott: Sorry to interrupt, but did you think he might hit you? 

[00:23:40] Jason Rosoff: I mean, I was telling a guy like you, you’re this big dude who’s bullying people. Like it was definitely, it occurred to me that like, he’s capable. That there’s an anger, you know what I’m saying? There’s anger in him and that he’s not in good control of it. 

[00:23:56] Kim Scott: Yeah. 

[00:23:56] Jason Rosoff: And in my experience, that’s a bad combination. 

[00:23:59] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that’s why he was defensive because maybe he never would have hit you, but people tended, because he was a big guy, people tended to. It’s a little bit like becoming a manager and you have some power. Like when I was told that I was intimidating, I was like, I am not intimidating. Uh, and then the HR person who told me that had to persuade me that in fact, I was shutting people down, not intentionally, but just by position. And I think maybe the physical size that probably happens to people. I mean, I wouldn’t know. Being very short, but I could imagine that it might. 

[00:24:37] Jason Rosoff: Yeah, I didn’t believe it, but I thought it, I guess is the way I would describe it. 

[00:24:42] Kim Scott: Yeah, you felt it. Yeah, you didn’t think it, but you felt it. 

[00:24:45] Amy Sandler: And Jason, before Kim interrupted you, you were,

[00:24:49] Jason Rosoff: Oh, I was going to say

[00:24:50] Amy Sandler: You were saying something.

[00:24:51] Jason Rosoff: I was going to say, I heard you asking something, something else, uh, Amy, which is like, for example, let’s say that the bullying that this guy was doing was less like physical intimidation and more uh bullying the women on his team. He was doing, it was like gendered bullying and I’m a woman manager and now I’m confront, like I am, I share something in common with the target of this person’s uh, bullying. I think it would be really hard, like, I’d probably want backup for that conversation. I probably wouldn’t go, like, uh, I haven’t been in that position, but I’d probably think, like, what is a way that I could not do this alone with this person? 

[00:25:37] Um, so that if something were to happen, if they were to continue that behavior with me, like, make me the target of that behavior, that I would feel like I had some support. Um, I don’t know if that’s like HR or getting my manager to join me for that conversation. But that’s probably what the thought that would have gone through my mind. 

[00:25:53] Amy Sandler: Thank you. And what was also coming up was that we’ve talked about defensiveness, which manifests itself as almost more of a challenge. The other defensiveness I’m curious about, and Jason, you talked for yourself, um, about just that sense of patience and grace that folks understand that, hey, I’m trying to do the best work I can here and I might get defensive, which is really how I, when I am feeling defensive, it’s coming from that place of, you know, the recovering perfectionist, like I’m doing my best and I’m feeling defensive because I feel like I missed the bar.

[00:26:24] So rather than, being offended that I can’t believe you would say this, it’s actually the other side of self criticism. Which I think is a really good size majority of folks who might be listening to this podcast, certainly that I work with in our workshops. And so I just want to make sure that we’ve also answered the question for that flavor of defensiveness, which is that embarrassment, or maybe I don’t know how to, um, get out of this mess. Or maybe I don’t know what, what good looks like. I know for me needing that time to process it, so I can really think through what the feedback was and then following up and having a plan of action is very reassuring in that sense that, you know, someone is with me to work through it.

[00:27:08] But I’m curious, um, and Kim, I’ll move it over to you. Do you have, initial thoughts on that other flavor of defensiveness where the person is embarrassed or feels like they actually don’t know, um, if they can meet the requirements of the role?

[00:27:23] Kim Scott: I mean, I think if the person feels embarrassed, it can be helpful, if that’s the sense I’m getting, it can be helpful for me to think of a time when I’ve made the same mistake. And just to sort of get on the, 

[00:27:38] Jason Rosoff: Climb down in the hole with them. 

[00:27:39] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah, get on the same side of the table with them. ‘Cause, you know, we’ve all made the, you know. Uh, and if they’re not sure that they can fix the problem, but I feel that they can, then I, then I think I turn to praise. Like you got it wrong in this tape, in this time. 

[00:27:58] Amy Sandler: Hm-mm.

[00:27:58] Kim Scott: But thinking about these other times where you got it right. Let’s figure out what you’re doing when you’re getting it right and focus, you know, that’s where praise is a much better, uh, much better tool. They need to understand there’s a problem, but you can, that’s a situation where praise is a better tool for figuring out 

[00:28:16] Amy Sandler: Kind of what you shared with the guy, the first guy where you were modeling, calling out all those moments where they’re doing it right.

[00:28:22] Kim Scott: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I also think that there are people who would rather have time to process and think about their response. Uh, and I think it’s totally fine if someone seems like they need, I think that’s Jason, what you did in your story. You gave the guy time to go process what happened and come back to you. And I think that was, clearly that worked. 

[00:28:49] Jason Rosoff: Yeah. I, like I said, I had this sense that he enjoyed a little bit the escalation. Like, he sort of, like, he, like, looked forward to the fight a little bit. And so by saying, like, I just want you to consider what I’ve said, that helped us to avoid the Tacoma State Bridge. And took a little bit, uh, gave him an opportunity that maybe he doesn’t always have. Because maybe people have a tendency to sort of push back harder or like jump into the drama with him. 

[00:29:20] Kim Scott: Yeah.

[00:29:20] Amy Sandler: All right. The age old question. Can I use Radical Candor at home? 

[00:29:35] Kim Scott: Yes. 

[00:29:36] Amy Sandler: Kim. 

[00:29:37] Kim Scott: Yes. Absolutely. Uh, in fact, in many ways it’s easier at home than at work. It’s, at least for me. 

[00:29:46] Amy Sandler: Really?

[00:29:46] Kim Scott: It’s much, easier for me to show that I care personal. I can walk up to my kids or my husband and give them a big hug. And I also need to know when not to do that. Especially now that my kids are fifteen, that works less and less well all the time than it did when they were six. But, uh, I think that Radical Candor is always a little bit, well, nothing is always true. But it’s generally easier when you’ve put money in the bank. You know, when the person knows that you love them. And hopefully, the people, uh, in your home know that you love them. 

[00:30:27] Uh, you know, there, I think there is an exception when it can be harder at home than in other places, if you have feedback debt. So let’s say it’s a law, it’s a relationship you’ve had for many, many years, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years. And, uh, and there’s a lot that has gone unsaid. Uh, and it’s boiled up, you know, and maybe even gone critical. Sometimes coming out from under that feedback that can, uh, can feel like mission impossible. But as a general rule, I find that it is extremely helpful at home. In fact, as I think I told on this podcast not too long ago, I don’t think I’d be married right now if it weren’t for Radical Candor. Did I tell the, did I tell the yoga story? I haven’t. 

[00:31:16] Amy Sandler: You did the original yoga story. 

[00:31:19] Kim Scott: Yes. Yes. 

[00:31:19] Amy Sandler: The origin story of your relationship. But do you want to give a quick synopsis for people who are rifling through episodes?

[00:31:25] Kim Scott: Sure. When I first started dating Andy, he was over at my house and I tended to do yoga in the mornings at home. And in the living room Andy came into the living room while I was doing yoga and plopped out on the couch and started reading the newspaper. And going through my mind was not, I should ask him to leave the room ’cause I want privacy when I do yoga, but said, I’d never want to see him again.

[00:31:51] Like, uh, and then I thought, or I could simply ask him to give me some privacy while I’m, and I, it felt kind of embarrassing to say, you know, I don’t want you in the room with me while I’m. But I was like, well, I do kind of like this guy, so maybe it’s worth telling him that. And I did and, you know, two children and, uh, I don’t know, seventeen years later. 

[00:32:16] Amy Sandler: Any more yoga in public or is that still a private? 

[00:32:19] Kim Scott: No, no, no. I’m not doing yoga in front of anybody else. 

[00:32:23] Amy Sandler: All right. So that has not changed. I think that’s such a illustrative story. We’ve had a few other stories like that, um, in different episodes of the value of it at home. Jason, where are you on this question? 

[00:32:39] Jason Rosoff: What Jillian, uh, my partner Jillian would say if she was here, it was like, that’s one of the reasons why our relationship works. One of the things that we both experienced growing up is that our parents and their parents were, there was a lot of things unsaid in those relationships. And then inevitably what would happen is there would be these like huge dramatic swings of emotion. So like something would go unsaid for a really long time, and then there would be this big blowout argument, and then all of a sudden, you know, your parents are like arguing about a thing that happened fifteen years ago that was still unresolved. You know what I’m saying? Like these, these arguments that would delve deep into the past.

[00:33:26] And we were like, that’s not how we want our relationship to work. And so we made this pact essentially, which we said like we’re gonna say the things to each other even if they’re hard. And we’re gonna do it with like with compassion, with love. And we’ll see, like, if, we’ll see if we can keep, keep that up. But we were highly motivated to find a different way to relate to each other than the other long term relationships that we had as example. So that was before I read Radical Candor or knew what it was, uh, that was an agreement that we made in our relationship and one of the reasons why we were like, hey, I think we could actually, you know, be married to each other, be in a long term relationship.

[00:34:06] And it’s sort of funny, like, after we learned what Radical Candor was, you know, after I met Kim and read the book and all this other stuff, uh, it was really funny to be able to put words to the thing that we did. But I think we both credit, uh credit Radical Candor, like the care personally and challenge directly, love and truth, um, as being like the key part of, the key foundation to our relationship. And we’ve been, let’s see, it’s 2024. So we’ve been together for almost twenty-five years. Um, uh, and we’ve been married for, uh, it’ll be seven, uh, I can do math, seventeen years in the fall. 

[00:34:53] Amy Sandler: That’s amazing. That’s great.

[00:34:53] So yeah, I think you can, can use it at home. I will agree with Kim that like the, I think part of the issue is like the, the relationship is, part of the reason why a lot of people can’t imagine practicing it as the relationship debt. And one of the ways that I’ve found, 

[00:35:08] Kim Scott: The feedback. 

[00:35:09] Jason Rosoff: Around. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Feedback debt in your relationship. Um, one of the ways that I’ve found around that, that has allowed me to use the sort of concepts of Radical Candor to motivate my communication with people, even when I have that feedback debt, is to like really stay focused on the present and try to find a way to accept the, like, accept the person that they are, and the mistakes that they’ve made. And like talk about the thing that’s happening now. Uh, and make a commitment to like not dredge up all the things that have happened in the past. And that has allowed me to build some bridges even in those relationships where it feels like the feedback debt is sort of enormous.

[00:35:46] Kim Scott: I think there’s, I forgot who it is, there’s a, uh, psychiatrist who says he can predict whether, um, uh, marriage will last within the first five seconds of or, fifteen seconds or whatever. And basically what he’s looking for is contempt. Contempt is a disaster in a relationship. And I think sometimes in the literature describing that, uh, research, people confuse criticism and contempt.

[00:36:15] And those are two different things. Criticism can be expressed, uh, with a great deal of respect, a great deal of care personally. Um, so I think sometimes when people ask that question, they’re really asking about the research, which we can drop into the show notes. 

[00:36:34] Amy Sandler: Yeah. I think it’s from the Gottman Institute, uh, Dr. John Gottman. Um, we can bring that in. And actually, Kim, I’m really glad you brought that up because one of the things that’s been on my mind lately. Obviously we talk so much about feedback, uh, there’s a lot in the book and in our workshops. But really, um, from my perspective, Radical Candor is not just a feedback model. It’s a communication model of care personally and challenge directly. And would you agree with that? That Radical Candor is not just about feedback, it really is about communication at large when we talk about care personally and challenge directly. It’s really about relationships. 

[00:37:13] Kim Scott: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, it is. I mean, there’s a lot of things that one communicates that aren’t necessarily about Radical Candor. So communication is a broader topic, but yes, uh, Radical Candor is a great way to approach, uh, communication. 

[00:37:30] Jason Rosoff: Kim, I know that this isn’t a current plan. But early in our relationship you told me that there’s a book that you want to write, which is called, titled Life and How to Live it. 

[00:37:40] Kim Scott: It is, How to Live and Why. 

[00:37:46] Jason Rosoff: Oh, the How to Live and Why. That’s what it was. I think the, this the point that when we communicate, we should be communicating, you know, truthfully and compassionately, like that is a, whether it’s feedback or our perspective or whatever it is. That does seem to be a pretty good, um, baseline rule to, or set of rules to follow.

[00:38:20] Kim Scott: Yeah. Love and truth at home and at work. 

[00:38:24] Amy Sandler: All right. How can Radical Candor, this is a big question. How can Radical Candor help improve relationships at work, increase employee retention, and make teams more productive? Jason. 

[00:38:37] Jason Rosoff: This is thrown at me. 

[00:38:39] Amy Sandler: Thrown at you.

[00:38:40] Jason Rosoff: You’re throwing to me. So, I think what we’ve been talking about so far is sort of how to make communication happen. Like all of these questions are, so we started with different cultures and then, uh, defensiveness or like emotional reactions, responses to communication and then, you know, different contexts, home and work. All of those things, employee retention, relationships at work, productivity, like fundamentally they rely on communication happening.

[00:39:13] And like, that’s the hardest part. Is to actually communicate with other people. Uh, and make sure that you’re heard and understood and they’re seen and understood or, their needs are perceived and understood. Uh, and I think that at least in my experience, that often is the biggest barrier in optimizing all three of those things, um, is making sure that we actually understand one another.

[00:39:42] So I guess that’s the way that I see it. It’s like Radical Candor helps with all of those things because it facilitates communication actually happening by ensuring that we are sharing our perspective with one another. Our truth, uh, truthfully, uh, speaking truthfully with one another, with compassion, with care personally.

[00:40:00] Uh, we’ve been talking about it, how it helps relationships. Um, there’s a direct real, uh, correlation between having a real relationship at work. So they’ve asked people the question, do you have a friend at work, one friend, one person that you would consider like collegial friend at work? And if the answer to that question is yes, employees are like, I can’t remember exactly what the percentage is. But like ridiculously high, like significant increase in their likelihood to be retained, to not leave a particular job.

[00:40:28] Kim Scott: And their happiness at work. 

[00:40:29] Jason Rosoff: Yes. And productivity goes, it’s like, it’s directly related to that. Like the, all of the retention markers also impact productivity. Because if we feel safe, understood, um, respected at work, it’s much easier to be productive. Because we’re not spending all of our time worrying about all the things that are getting in the way of our productivity. So I know that’s sort of like a broad strokes answer to that question, but given how complex it is, I’m going to give myself a pass. 

[00:40:59] Kim Scott: I think that at the very core of your job as a manager at work is the relationship that you form with each of your direct reports. If you’re in a collaboration hierarchy and not a dominance hierarchy. And I think dominance hierarchy should be relegated to lobsters and not to, as human beings, we know our collaboration hierarchy is going to, is going to increase retention and make teams more productive, better than a dominant hierarchy would. 

[00:41:32] So your relationship is core. And in many ways, Radical Candor is a description of that relationship, uh, where you’re caring personally and challenging directly. That, uh, that’s so, so the whole idea of the book is to identify those relationships and to think about what you can do to have better relationships. Uh, and to think about how you can fulfill your responsibilities in a way that strengthens those relationships. How can you solicit feedback and create a culture of guidance on your team?

[00:42:07] How can you make sure that you’re building a team where people on the team are taking a step in the direction of their dreams? And if they’re doing that, they’re going to stay longer than if they’re living in misery. And, uh, and how can you achieve results like, and if you achieve better results, your team is more productive. Uh, and so that, those are, those are the core ideas of the book actually. 

[00:42:33] Amy Sandler: Yeah. And I think, you know, just Kim, if I can summarize one really important idea, which is that you’ve said that success at work requires collaboration and the development of these radically candid relationships, right? So we’ve moved or hopefully moving from this top down command and control dominant hierarchy to one that’s based on collaboration. 

[00:42:55] Um, and I’m curious, like you were talking about the relationship between a manager and a direct report. So many folks that are interested in Radical Candor, maybe we don’t have direct reports or maybe we work more cross-functionally. And I think it would still be the same that if I’m gonna improve these relationships, just like Jason was describing. Having that, that trusted friend at work, having those relationships, um, those radically candid relationships will also help you, um, not just do better work, but even enjoy the work as well.

[00:43:25] Kim Scott: Yeah. Enjoy the work and enjoy the people at work. 

[00:43:28] Amy Sandler: Yeah. 

[00:43:28] Kim Scott: Uh, because having, you know, it’s terrible to have a boss who is bullying you. But it’s also terrible to have a peer who’s bullying you. And so learning how, or, you know, that’s one of many things that can go wrong in a peer. It’s horrible to have a peer who’s not delivering you the stuff that they’ve committed to delivering you on time.

[00:43:48] Uh, and so figuring out how to have, how to communicate with that peer who’s letting you down in one way, shape or form. Uh, in a way that, that can help facilitate a better relationship and change, is that’s all you’ve got really with your peers. You, because you can’t give your peer, uh, you know, you can’t fire your peer. You can’t, you don’t have the other levers at your disposal that you have when you’re a manager. So I think it’s especially important with your peers. It’s also important with your boss. It’s up, down, and sideways. 

[00:44:21] Amy Sandler: Okay, and now it’s time for our Radical Candor checklist and this is a quick summary of everything we just said. Kim. 

[00:44:30] Kim Scott: Tip number one, when someone gets defensive in response to your feedback, stay calm, avoid getting defensive yourself. And focus on helping them move past their initial reaction for a productive conversation. Get curious, not furious. 

[00:44:46] Amy Sandler: Tip number two, Radical Candor is a universal human concept. But the specific implementation needs to be tailored to the individual. So if you’re working with teams in different cultures, different countries, you need to be really aware of how your feedback and communication style is being received. The key is to be clear about your intentions to practice Radical Candor and ask people to give you feedback on how your interactions are landing.

[00:45:12] Jason Rosoff: Tip number three. In personal relationships, practice Radical Candor by communicating compassionately while being willing to have tough conversations. Even when uncomfortable, to strengthen bonds and support growth. 

[00:45:24] Kim Scott: Tip number four. Radical Candor encourages accountability, resolves conflicts early before escalation, creates an environment of trust and psychological safety where people feel empowered to take risks, innovate, and feel more engaged, motivated, and connected to the team and mission.

[00:45:43] Amy Sandler: Well, for more tips, you can visit RadicalCandor.com/resources. Show notes for this episode are at RadicalCandor.com/podcast. Praise in public and criticize in private. So if you like what you hear, please do rate and review us wherever you’re listening to the podcast, it really helps. And if you’ve got criticism, we read every one, email it, podcast@RadicalCandor.com. Bye for now. 

[00:46:12] Kim Scott: Take care, everybody. 

[00:46:13] Jason Rosoff: Bye bye.

Radical Candor Podcast Resources

• How To Navigate Feedback Conversations On Diverse Teams | Radical Candor
• Radical Candor Cultural Differences
• Radical Candor Knows No Boundaries
• Responding To Negative Feedback: 5 Ways To Disagree | Radical Candor
• Navigating Emotional Reactions at Work | Radical Candor 2 |16
• Tacoma Narrows Bridge history – Bridge – Lessons from failure
• Radical Respect | Amazon Books
• Applying Radical Candor To Dysfunctional Family Dynamics | Radical Candor
• The Four Horsemen: Criticism, Contempt, Defensiveness, and Stonewalling
• Radical Candor Q&A: Jason Answers Our Most Frequently Asked Questions 6 | 28 
• Radical Candor Q&A: Kim Answers Our Most Frequently Asked Questions 6 | 27

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Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer.

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