The Evil Translator & The Fundamental Attribution Error (Best of) 7 | 21

On this Best of episode of the Radical Candor podcast, Kim, Jason and Amy discuss how the fundamental attribution error makes us more likely to use personality attributes to explain someone else’s behavior rather than considering our own behavior or situational factors that were probably the real cause of the behavior. This is where the “not about personality” part of Radical Candor comes into play. Plus, Jason shares a hilarious (and painfully relatable) story about the “evil little translator” in his head that used to turn even well-meaning feedback into: 🗣️ “You’re terrible. You’re completely incompetent. It’s a miracle you tied your shoes this morning.” Sound familiar? You’re not alone. Tune in, laugh, and maybe rethink the way you hear feedback.

Listen to the episode:

Episode at a Glance: The Evil Translator

 

From wildly relatable stories about nose-picking to  breakfast meltdowns, and internal critics who seriously need to chill, this episode is your reminder to stop name-calling and start getting curious. TL;DR: You’re not an asshole, and neither is your coworker. Probably.

Radical Candor Podcast Checklist: The Evil Translator 

Radical Candor Podcast Resources: The Evil Translator 

• Transcript
• Beware The Fundamental Attribution Error: Radical Candor Podcast 5 | 8 
• 6 Tips for Giving Helpful Feedback
• Get to the CORE of Giving Radically Candid Feedback
• Fundamental attribution error – Wikipedia
• Fundamental Attribution Error: What It Is & How to Avoid It
• Giving Feedback: 4 Ways To Avoid Personalizing It
• Fundamental Attribution Error – The Decision Lab
• The Three Components of Self-Compassion

The TLDR Radical Candor Podcast Transcript: The Evil Translator 

[00:00:00] Kim Scott: Hello everybody. Welcome to the Radical Candor Podcast. I’m Kim Scott, co-founder of Radical Candor and author of Radical Candor and Just Work. 

[00:00:12] Jason Rosoff: I’m Jason Rosoff, CEO and co-founder of Radical Candor. 

[00:00:15] Amy Sandler: And I’m Amy Sandler, your host for the Radical Candor Podcast. Hey, have you ever been cut off in traffic and said to yourself that asshole, but also, have you ever accidentally cut someone off in traffic because you just didn’t see them. Maybe they were cruising in that part of your mirror where you can’t actually see them. Your blind spot. Are you in fact an asshole? No, you are not. Was the other person? Perhaps they made anonymous mistake just like you did, or maybe they’re rushing a sick child to the hospital. Maybe something else we don’t know. This, what I’m talking about, this is what we call the fundamental attribution error.

[00:00:55] It’s a phrase coined by Lee Ross, a social psychologist from Stanford. And the fundamental attribution error is using perceived personality attributes to explain someone else’s behavior rather than considering your own behavior and, or the situational factors that were probably the real cause of the other person’s behavior. Kim, you wrote about it in Radical Candor and you wrote quote, it’s a problem because one, it’s generally inaccurate, and two, it renders an otherwise solvable problem really hard to fix, since changing CORE personal attributes is so very difficult and time consuming, end quote. Tell us more.

[00:01:46] Kim Scott: Sure. So, uh, one of the things that I, that, that it, one of the reasons why it’s a problem to say, you know, you asshole, is that if you really believe that person is fundamentally an asshole, it’s gonna keep happening. Like there’s no solution to the problem. And it doesn’t allow any sort of humility in the, in the feedback. It doesn’t allow you to take into account the possibility that you might be doing something that’s contributing to the problem. So this is why the fundamental attribution error or just, we can also just call this not name call, don’t name call, no name calling, is part of the reason why it’s useful to solicit feedback before you give it.

[00:02:33] Because you might be doing something that is contributing to the situation that is frustrating you. Uh, and if you learn what it is, you can stop doing it and hooray. You can solve the problem. So when you solicit feedback before giving it, you’re open to the possibility that there’s an explanation for the other person’s behavior other than who they are as a human being. And even that your behavior might be a contributing factor rather than just blaming some aspect of this person’s personality, like she is an asshole, or he is oversensitive. Jason, what do you think? 

[00:03:10] Jason Rosoff: A big yes, and, to, to what you’re saying because from my perspective, it, it’s often very tempting, especially once you feel like someone has done, you, done you wrong, right, has done something to upset you, to imagine that they did that because they’re a bad person. Which by, by extension makes you sort of a good person or the, the sort of the, the victim in this situation when often circumstances are creating victims of all of us, right? Because if I think about the times that I’ve really lashed out at people, it’s very rarely about them or about that moment. It is much more often about the context that I happen to be in. I might be very frustrated about things and someone does something even slightly wrong and all of a sudden it’s because like they’re, they’re such an awful person. I’m sort of projecting my own emotional state onto, onto their behavior.

[00:03:59] And I think there’s something satisfying about being able to blame it on them as opposed to like, accept that context might be playing a, a big role. And the other thing that I’ve noticed is the less well that I know the other person, the more likely I am to make the fundamental attribution error. And when you combine knowing someone less well with them being more different from you, you now have this really, uh, high probability of finding yourself, making the fundamental attribution error. So the less, well you know, the more different they are, the easier it is to come up with an explanation in your head like they did that because they’re a terrible person. Um, and so when I find myself having this thought pattern, I, I’ve learned to see it as sort of a blinking red light. Like, something is wrong in your perception. Uh, you might want to rethink this. 

[00:04:50] Amy Sandler: I love that, Jason, and one of the things that you said around sort of the context in which it’s happening and the blinking red light. And just to pull the lens back even a little bit further, one of my favorite stories, uh, it’s this story called The Empty Boat. And it’s about this Buddhist monk who’s, you know, on this boat in the middle of this beautiful, calm river, and he is meditating and it’s been hours and it’s just sort of the gentle flow of the water against the boat. And all of a sudden there’s this smash against the boat waking him up from the meditation, and all of a sudden just feeling just this huge rage. And if you’re like this person, like what’s the first thing you’re gonna do is who’s the asshole that just bumped into my boat? Right? Like, who woke me up from this beautiful meditation?

[00:05:34] And all of a sudden, you know, so you’re thinking about this person and how terrible they are. And then he opens his eyes and sees the boat and it’s empty. It just had floated and banged into him. And of course, because it’s a story, you know, if he was like real, achieved realization and enlightenment because it was the empty boat, but it was really, for me, the reason I love this story is how often does this sort of external thing happen, this trigger happen, and that first tendency to go right to, you know, you asshole, what’s, like the person that’s riding the boat and in fact, there is not the person. Often there is someone riding the boat, but I think even if we pull it back to the empty boat, it just helps us really anchor how much of it is what’s inside of us that’s just waiting to be set off a little. Kim, as I share that story, anything come to mind for you? 

[00:06:29] Kim Scott: I was angry at the current in the river on, this is the imp of the perverse.

[00:06:38] Amy Sandler: Did you go to like a rabbit hole around climate change and why is,

[00:06:42] Kim Scott: I did. I, I went right down, I went right down a rabbit hole, but I’m not gonna drag us all down there. It was not a useful thought, but I, I, the other thing that I was thinking about was, one of the books that is really powerful about slavery is King Leopold’s Ghost. And I reread it recently. And then I also reread his other books, which were about sort of the system of slavery and why it was, why it was so horrendous. And his books on the, on the system of slavery did not do especially well. But King Leopold’s Ghost is incredibly powerful, incredibly popular book, uh, has sold millions and millions of copies. I don’t know if millions and millions, but sold a lot of copies. And, and, and I think the reason is that King Leopold is such an asshole. And it’s, it’s like so, so much easier and more satisfying to blame like this villain, because that villain has nothing to do with me, you know? And so, uh, uh, whereas the system is, we gotta think more about what happened. So anyway, that was the other thing I was thinking as you were telling the empty boat story. 

[00:07:59] Jason Rosoff: Maybe this is beating the metaphor, but the, the system is the river, right? So like we may not be, quote unquote in control of the current, but we have some agency as we go, go down the river. And so it’s very dissatisfying to be like, yes, the current is carrying me along, but maybe I still have some culpability or responsibility for how things wound up. Like the thought, taking the, the perspective of the monk and the boat is sort of like there was no self blame. Like maybe because I was in the boat, it, uh, caused the boat to take a different path, and that’s what caused the two boats to collide. And if I wasn’t in the boat that these two boats never would’ve hit each, you know what I’m saying? Like that thought process is very, it’s like it’s, it tends to be far away. It takes a long time to get back to seeing the world in a way that invites you to reflect on your own responsibility or sort of the, the system that might be carrying us all along as being responsible, uh, sharing some responsibility for the outcome.

[00:08:55] Kim Scott: Yeah. Or I, you know, I could have put a tire on the outside of my boat and then it wouldn’t have been, anyway. Alright, I’ll, we’ll stop. 

[00:09:05] Amy Sandler: Well, Jason, I wanna go back to what you were sharing around this idea of relationship and how we maybe have built a relationship. We cut a little more slack with those folks that we maybe feel like we know that person well. Do you want to share a little more about that part of it in terms of how the seeming distance or difference between us and someone else can potentially be overcome and that tendency, we might have to say you’re an asshole to someone that we don’t know so well. 

[00:09:34] Jason Rosoff: I think we touched on this a little bit in the last episode or, or a previous episode about emotion and why it’s so important to, to be able to accept the emotions of other people as a natural consequence of being a human being. And from my perspective, when we truly know another person it’s easier for us to imagine how the context might be impacting their behavior, right? It’s easier for us to imagine how this isn’t motivated by some deep seated desire ’cause like, this person wouldn’t harm me. That’s not their, I know that’s not their intention because, uh, we have such a great working relationship. Or maybe you have a relationship with them outside of work. Maybe you have a great friendship. And it’s like that I know this person isn’t trying to harm me. So we sort of bring them into our circle, right? At that point we’re sort of like, it’s, it’s sort of a mental hug we’re giving this person, which is like, you’re close to me. You’re probably not trying to harm me.

[00:10:26] And my observation is that I have very rarely run into people who are actively trying to do harm. It’s not that they don’t exist. But they’re rare, it’s rare that there are people who are actively trying to do harm. Which means that we owe that sort of mental hug to pretty much everybody that we meet, which is like, this person is not trying to hurt me. And if they hurt me, there’s probably a reason. Um, if they do something that that really upsets me, there’s probably a reason for that. But it’s really hard to maintain that sort of generosity with other people because, you know, there are a lot of things, signals in the world that tell us to sort of be on the defensive. Like when you’re out and we’re like, assume someone’s going to hurt you. Uh, that there are a lot of reasons why we might carry that belief with us, but I think my experience is that people as individuals, very rare that they, they actually want, want to harm you. 

[00:11:15] Kim Scott: I think that’s exactly right. I mean, one of the things that I’ve thought about is anytime I say you, I’m, I try to pause and, and be aware of what I, what’s gonna come out of my mouth next. Because very often, uh, it is sort of putting a, an, an unreasonable accusation on the other person. Uh, in fact, there was a guy, there was a guy who I worked with when I lived in New York. Who he was actually, I, I really liked this person. He was really, he was a really good person. He really cared about the people around him, but he was, he had a reputation for being an asshole.

[00:12:00] And, uh, and he was, you know, he was intense for sure. But anyway, so then I moved to California and I kind of lost touch with this person. Then I met someone a couple of years later who was, had just started working with him and I sort of, and I said, oh yeah, I know him. I really like him. And I kind of braced myself ’cause often people would, how can you stand this guy. And uh, and the person said, oh yeah, he’s such a great guy. I love working with him. He has a reputation for being one of the most supportive people at the company. And I was kinda blown away by this change, this reputational change, this, it was not just a change, it was a transformation.

[00:12:43] So I called up my friend, uh, to pass along the compliment and I said, this is new. Uh, what’s, what’s, ’cause he, he and I had talked about, he was discouraged about and he said that someone had taught him to stop saying, you are wrong, and in, and taught him instead to say, I think that’s wrong. So the, I think is sort of owning, you know, your end of the conversation and talking about that as opposed to you, uh, meant it, he wasn’t personalizing the situation. And all of a sudden people were way more open and receptive to his criticism. So I thought that was an, an interesting story and, and really, uh, simple. Instead of saying, you’re wrong, saying, I think that’s wrong. That had a profound impact on his reputation and his career. 

[00:13:40] Amy Sandler: I really appreciate that story and also that person’s willingness to grow and, and improve. You know, one of the things we say in our workshops and in our materials is that we try not to be too didactic and give sort of the perfect words, but that guidance of, of being more humble, I think. And, and the other thing that we like to do is guide people through sharing guidance that’s using our CORE framework. So context, observation, result, and next steps. So in a moment, Jason, I’d love for you to explain each of those pieces, but before we do, one of the things that we say, the most important reason why we give this guidance is ’cause we wanna take our guidance, guidance about guidance, feedback on feedback, I guess, is we wanna take our guidance not about personality, like that’s the thing on the slide. And Kim, that’s one of your big phrases, not about personality. So can you say in your own words, what does not about personality mean specifically? I know we’ve talked about the fundamental attribution error, but what does it mean not about personality?

[00:14:48] Kim Scott: Are you asking me?

[00:14:49] Amy Sandler: That’s for Kim. Kim Scott. Author of the book. Go straight to the source.

[00:14:54] Kim Scott: So I think it goes back to what, uh, what our parents told us when we were younger, which is no name calling. Anytime, anytime you’re about to say, you know, you are. The problem here is, you are, you know, the most aggressive woman I ever met, which was said to me once, or you know, you’re a genius or you, you are a dumb ass or whatever it is that you’re gonna say, uh, there’s, there’s an issue. You’re, you’re now talking, or even if, even if it’s, I mean those are all extreme examples, but if you say, you’re the greatest, that’s also kind of a personality attribute, or you’re great to work with ’cause you are generous. I mean, that’s, it’s a, it’s a good thing to tell people when they’re generous, but to be more specific about what they’re doing that is letting others know that they’re generous is, is even more helpful. 

[00:15:50] Amy Sandler: Yeah. We will often talk about, you know, one of the things I will say is that the reason why I love this framework is it’s very focused on things we can actually change and improve. So behavior or work product, things that I can actually do. So Jason, do you wanna walk us through the CORE method and how that helps us take it out of personality or name calling.

[00:16:12] Jason Rosoff: Like all frameworks, I think CORE does two things that are important. The first thing that it does is it gives us a way to slow down and think about what’s happening. Often these, these moments when we’re tempted to name call, like emotions are high. And so if we have some tool that we can draw on that says, Hey, slow down and think about it in a slightly different way, or do you still feel the same, after you’ve thought about it in this way, do you still feel the same? Or maybe there’s something else going on. So that’s one of the things I, I think that helps me a lot with Radical Candor, is when I feel like a conversation is getting really tense, I often think about like, am I being radically candid? Like, is there, is this obnoxious aggression? Is it manipulative? Like what about this conversation is, is making it difficult?

[00:16:55] So that’s thing number one, so let’s say you’ve made the mistake and you’ve called the person the name. You know, you’re, I, you’re, you’re a terrible person because, you know, you showed up late and you wasted everybody else’s time. And the showing up late and wasting in people’s time like that actually is valuable information. But you wrapped it in the, you’re a terrible person. And so now you’re probably in some sort of conflict for this person. So I would think about this as context. You know, when you show up late for our meetings, uh, observation, I, I noticed that we feel like we have to wait around a while and people get frustrated while they wait. And the result is people feel some resentment toward you for showing up late to these meetings, and so I’m wondering if, is there something that we can do that would make it so that you could arrive on time to the meetings going forward? That would be my next step is to have, to ask that question.

[00:17:47] And now all of a sudden we’ve, it’s changed from like an accusation to a collaboration. Like can we do something together to make it possible for you to show up on time for these meetings and it helps the person know that like in this situation, you may not perceive it because by the time that you arrive, then we’re all like, we’ve been waiting so long that we’re ready to go, and so we sort of just plowed through the whole meeting. And you can’t even tell that there’s resentment in the room for, for you having showed up late. So by sharing what the impact of it was, it often opens up some different avenues for conversation.

[00:18:19] Amy Sandler: Kim, what do you think? How would that land for you? 

[00:18:21] Kim Scott: I, I like it. I, I mean, for me, the utility of CORE. Or CORN. I don’t know why I like to call it CORN. Uh, because,

[00:18:29] Jason Rosoff: Because it’s cute.

[00:18:30] Amy Sandler: Well, technically it’s more accurate because it’s next steps.

[00:18:33] Jason Rosoff: I like it too.

[00:18:33] Kim Scott: Because I’m kind of CORNy. Yeah. But anyway, uh, I, I like it because it is so satisfying to, to, uh, lambast someone’s personality attributes. And so it helps me in the moment remember when I, when I don’t wanna make it about someone’s personality. When I’m tempted to say, you know, you are such a, a negative Ned. Then instead, I slow down and I say, you know, in the meeting when you kept focusing on this problem, it made, it discouraged people. So, or, or an example, Amy, you and I went to business school and so you’ll appreciate this. We, uh, we wrote a blog post about this and I said it in a work setting. I said, this situation, but the situation actually happened at business school. Uh, so someone passed a note to someone else that said, check out so and so picking his nose. I think he just nicked his brain. Uh, and then the note got passed to the nose picker and we were trying to do a group project to get,

[00:19:42] Amy Sandler: I’m sorry. How old is everyone in business school at this time? Just to be clear.

[00:19:45] Kim Scott: You know, we’re 30, uh, 30 years old, you know, full on adults. 

[00:19:50] Amy Sandler: Alleged adults. Go on. 

[00:19:52] Kim Scott: And, uh, we were all working on a group project together and we got an F on the group project ’cause we couldn’t get any work done because the guy was so mad about having been accused of having nicked his brain while picking his nose. So we used that as a, as a way to think about, instead of saying, you know, you blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, when we were in that meeting and you passed a note to Catherine that said, check out Elliot picking his nose. I think he just nicked his brain. Elliot wound up seeing it. Context. It pissed him off unnecessarily and made it harder for us to work together. Observation. Uh, this was the single best contributing factor to our inability to complete the project. Result. I think you owe Elliot an apology. Next Step. So that’s an example of, of trying to, I was so mad and so frustrated because it was such a ridiculous situation. But anyway, that was, that’s an example. I wish I had had CORE at the time ’cause I don’t think I reacted that well. 

[00:21:01] Amy Sandler: No, or CORN could have been helpful.

[00:21:04] Kim Scott: Yes, CORN.

[00:21:04] Amy Sandler: So, just so, I’m really appreciating this, ’cause as I’m hearing, Jason, what you brought in, in this specific example, there’s something about having this model which helps us pause, which gives us two benefits. One benefit is it kind of gives us time to maybe process the emotion or creates a little bit of space, which we need. You know, acknowledging we might feel really frustrated, but it really, you know, to my mind, Jason, what you were saying, it, it anchors us to our intention and our intention is to be helpful, right? So we think about radically candid feedback as hip CORN or hip to the CORE. And that being humble and helpful for me as you were talking, going through CORE forces me to check in with myself and see if I am actually doing this in a spirit of being helpful. And it also forces me to not do a lot of, sorry, Kim, to go back to your comment, a lot of nitpicking, if you will. Because it’s forcing us to really get clear on what is the most important result here. It’s not you did this and you did that and you did this, but it’s really getting to what is the key result here. So Jason, you know, what’s your perspective on that shift from observation to result and getting us out of nitpicking that you found, uh, most, most helpful in the work that you do with people?

[00:22:24] Jason Rosoff: I don’t know about most helpful. I, I think the, when we were developing CORN as a model, the reason why next steps was so important for the model, from my perspective, is because it forces you to be future focused a little bit. I think one of the, one of the hallmarks of a, sort of falling prey to the fundamental attribution error is that it is almost always backward looking. It’s almost always like a thing that happened that you did, and now I’m, because of that thing that happened in the past, I’m branding you in a part, like in my mind, you are now a particular way, um, as a person. You’re rude. You are incompetent.

[00:23:02] Amy Sandler: You’re a terrible note passer. Or nose picker.

[00:23:05] Jason Rosoff: That’s right. You’re a gossip. Um, and it’s hard to be helpful when you’re focused on, when you’re only focused on the past, right? Like, it, it’s hard, it’s hard to, to make something helpful when you’re only focused on the things that happen. What I will say is that the other thing that I get value out of is remembering that things happen in context. Literally the C is for context. Like this happened in a place and at a time, and it’s important to think about what that was, because even the act of saying in that meeting, puts me in a mindset of like, okay, so what was happening in that meeting? And in my example, when someone’s late, right, or like when you, when you were late to that meeting, just by saying that, like, that is the context that I wanna set. All of a sudden, like, I’m automatically curious, like, I wonder why they were late to that meeting?

[00:23:49] Like, what might have caused this person to, to be late? Um, but putting things in context is incredibly helpful. And then to Kim’s point being specific after that, like what actually happened, what did you see? What do you feel the, the result of that thing was? What was your perception, uh, of that event? Also forces me to think about, when I think about my perception, it encouraged me to think about, I, like, I often ask myself as I’m going through writing something down in, in CORN, like I wonder if other people saw it the same way. Like, it is sort of interesting to think like, if Kim was writing this, would she write the same thing? Or if Amy was writing this, would she write the same thing? Um, so for me it is a, answer each of those questions, like, what is the context?

[00:24:37] What did you observe? What is the result? Every time I do that, every time I go through that exercise, it automatically puts me in a different kind of mindset where I start to wonder about how much of this is my perception, how much of this is like, really what sort of, what happened, in air quotes. Uh, and why did, why did this happen? And so very often, my first next step when I’m thinking about giving someone, uh, feedback, especially about something that bothered me, will be to ask the question, did it land the same way for you as it did for me, is a, is a very common next step for me. And that’s because as I go through that list, I often find, I don’t know, I have no idea what the person was thinking. 

[00:25:19] Kim Scott: Or what they’re going, what they’re going through.

[00:25:21] Jason Rosoff: Correct.

[00:25:21] Kim Scott: Like for example, I mean luckily my husband knew what I was going through, but he said something to me at breakfast the other day and I jumped down his throat. And the reason that I jumped down his throat was not because I’m an asshole, but because, uh, I was trying to, I was trying to do this intermittent fasting and I was hungry and, uh, and 

[00:25:49] Jason Rosoff: This is, this is real life.

[00:25:50] Kim Scott: Yes, this is real life and I do not do well, uh, when I am hungry. And, but, and I wasn’t even aware of it until a few days later. I said to him, I said, you know, I don’t think this intermittent fasting thing is working for me. And he said, oh, thank God. Said, I knew I couldn’t talk to you about anything until after lunch. Um, and so, yes, uh, so it is very useful, uh, to have people in your life who know your context and who will sort of navigate it. Uh, so, but, but it’s also, that’s why it’s useful, Jason, what you said to, to sort of ask someone a question or to try to understand ’cause, ’cause very often you’re not aware of the full context. And just being humble enough to, to realize you’re not aware. Like my kids were there too, and they had no idea I was intermittent fasting. They just thought, you know, mom’s a big you know what. 

[00:26:49] Amy Sandler: Yeah. Well, we will not be changing CORN to keto apparently for

[00:26:53] Kim Scott: No, no, no. I, I, the intermittent fasting is not for me. I decided better to be fat and happy. 

[00:27:01] Amy Sandler: Which is maybe the name for this episode. I know we were, we were in search of one. Um, I wanna bring up something that came up for me as, as Jason and I, and I were having a chat a little earlier, and as we were going through the use of CORE, CORN to take things out of personality, to be specific. And the question that came up for me, and I don’t think I’m alone, which is that even if someone gives me the most specific context, observation result, next steps focused on work, product, or behavior, I still hear it as, you’re terrible and you’re on your way out and sort of, I go to worst case scenario, um, in terms of this, a very high negativity bias. And so I just wanted to bring that in in terms of our very own fundamental attribution error for ourselves that even if someone might say it and tee it up a certain way, we still might hear it and internalize it, um, as a grand statement on ourselves. So I can reflect on that for myself. But I’m curious, Jason, if you wanted to add in what, what, a little bit from what you and I talked about with that. Have you ever felt that way, first of all? 

[00:28:17] Jason Rosoff: Me? Oh, of course. Yeah. I, I would, I would categorize myself as someone who’s pretty sensitive to criticism, actually. Like it took me a long, an embarrassingly long time to realize that it had nothing to do with the person delivering it. Like I always assumed that there must be a better way to tell me that I screwed that thing up. It probably wasn’t until I was about 35 years old that I realized, no, there, the problem is not what the person is saying. The problem is before what that person is saying has gotten all the way into my brain, there’s a little evil translator in there that turns it into, like that says it back to me in the meanest possible way. Um, and the voice that I hear is not the person sitting across from me, but that voice inside my head that is like, they’re, what they’re really saying is, you’re a you’re terrible, you’re completely incompetent. There’s no possible way you’re going to succeed. It’s a miracle that you managed to tie your own shoes and make it into the office this morning.

[00:29:13] Amy Sandler: Has my voice been talking to your voice lately? They seem, 

[00:29:17] Jason Rosoff: That, that’s what’s going on inside my head and what, it took me like literally 35 years of life, it took me to realize, like I wasn’t actually hearing the other person, I was hearing the, that, that internal voice. 

[00:29:28] Kim Scott: Where did that voice come from? 

[00:29:30] Jason Rosoff: I mean, I think, I don’t wanna turn this into like a full blown therapy session, but I was a, I was a first child, I was pretty successful. Things went pretty well for me in my life. There was like a high bar for me, both, like expectations set by my parents. My mom was, uh, first generation in her family to go to college. There was a lot of like, you know, you’re going to succeed and you’re gonna do, like, you’re, you’re gonna do what, we’re, our family’s gonna do what my family didn’t do, which is like, we’re gonna pursue this sort of like life of the mind and all, anyway. So there’s a lot of pressure indirectly placed on me as a result of like the dreams that my, my parents, and especially my mom had for me.

[00:30:09] And so I unfortunately internalized that in a way of like, if I fail, no one will love me. Uh, and that is unfair to everyone. Like that, that’s not what my mom was saying. And there, I have failed in my life and she still, she still loves me. So like it all worked out. But somehow my brain came up with a story, which is that the only thing that is acceptable is success. Like the only thing that is acceptable is to be the best possible version of yourself. And, and I think that a lot of highly successful people have that voice inside them that says that failure is death. Like there’s no separation, to fail it is literally to die. And thankfully, I have a very supportive family.

[00:31:00] I’m incredibly fortunate in that respect. Uh, I’ve had enough financial success to have good mental healthcare and like other professionals to help me like figure out, there was a difference between like what the world was saying about me and what people were saying about me and what I was saying about myself. But not everybody has that benefit. So I think a lot of people live without realizing that that, that there’s a voice inside their head that is telling them this stuff and they feel as though the world is constantly attacking them and telling them that they’re, they’re not worthy. 

[00:31:31] Kim Scott: Which it’s not. I mean, some, in some cases there may be people using those terms, but usually not. What about you, Amy? Why, why do you think you have this mean voice? ‘Cause you’re so kind to everyone else,

[00:31:49] Amy Sandler: Shut up, Kim. Um, I mean I’ve done done a lot of work exploring that voice. I think part of it, you know, my nickname as a kid was Amy the Great, and, you know, it was a similar thing of Jason of just failure was not an option. And I think the, the sort of potential downside of all of the, the success and things coming easily was that, very similar to Jason, sort of failure equals death or, or maybe even worse than death. You know, lack of love or not belonging, you know? And I think with all of the different communities that I’ve been in, there is this fundamental sort of song that we all have.

[00:32:30] Whether it’s, I’m not enough or I’m not worthy, or I don’t deserve love, there’s some flavor of that. Um, and so for me, I had to do a lot of work just to get to a place of, of Radical Candor. I would say the, if I’m really honest, one of the biggest ah-ha’s when I started doing a lot of mindfulness practice and started actually getting to know that voice, was that the voice was not only an asshole to me, but it was also kind of an asshole to, to everything around me. Like, well, you’re, that’s terrible and that’s terrible and this is terrible and I would’ve done it this way.

[00:33:04] I mean, of course, hardest on me, and yet very high bar and very high expectations. And so I do think as we develop more, um, awareness of those internal voices, we also see the ways in which we are, you know, so quick to judge the world around us. Um, and then probably turning it most of all on ourselves. So I think there’s something really important here to break out of the fundamental attribution error or the sort of, not about personality, not just the tool of CORE, but some of what Jason was talking about, of, of empathy, putting yourself in the other person’s shoes, how would they be looking at it? And then, you know, for yourself just does the self-compassion, realizing that, you know, we sort of do have this common humanity.

[00:33:48] And there might be this part of me that always sort of is tending to beat myself up and yet I can sort of remind myself of all the more positive things. And I think having, having people around you that, that do get you at least to neutral. I mean just, just today Jason and I were having a one-on-one and I’m doing something new. And Jason’s first thing to say was, Amy, you’re gonna do, like, I know you’re gonna do great and I think it’s important for you to be aware that, like he has to almost correct me to get me to, to neutral. I don’t know, Jason, if you wanna say, just ’cause it might be helpful for our listeners, like what was in your mind, managing someone who’s self-critical, how to speak to that voice. 

[00:34:29] Jason Rosoff: Yeah, I, I, I was recognizing something, which is, uh, you put this meeting on my calendar pretty early in the morning, especially for someone from the West coast. I know you happen to be on the East coast now, but I knew it was gonna be like, your brain was just waking up. And I saw that and I was like, this is telling, there, there’s like something else going on here beside the content of this meeting if like, Amy’s willing to like get up early and, and have this conversation with me. And so that, that was what actually triggered it for me. It made me curious about the context, like what else could be going on here. Um, and that’s when I said, I don’t think I’ve said to you throughout this process as we’ve been preparing to do this new thing, I don’t think I’ve said to you, I am 100% confident that if I disappear tomorrow and you couldn’t ask me another question, that you would do a great job at this. Like you are an expert in how to teach this to other people and me asking you to teach it to somebody else, like, there’s no part of me that is not 100% confident in your ability to do that. It doesn’t, that that voice is not in my head. And I was like, I don’t think I’ve said that. I feel like I owe that to Amy so that she understands how, how I actually feel about this. And especially given the context like given that I, I, just by the, the timing of the meeting, I could sense the stress that, that, that was, that was there, so. 

[00:35:50] Amy Sandler: I, well first of all, I really appreciate it, but I think that’s also just a really interesting thing for our listeners of, is there, going back to, you know, what you, Kim and Jason, we’re talking about of like what might be underneath it, what’s not being said, getting really curious. So thank you, thank you for that. Anything else, Kim, before we, we wrap up on how to take things out of personality? 

[00:36:12] Kim Scott: Yeah. I think for people who don’t like CORN, I don’t know why you don’t like CORN, but I love it. But here’s another couple of ways to think about it. Uh, one is, get curious, not furious, right? So just if, if that’s easier to remember. Another way to think about it is the, the little sticky that I have on my computer when I sit down to write is, show, don’t tell. Don’t, if you, if you just say, she is smart. That doesn’t, that shows, it doesn’t tell anything about the person. So instead say, when she sat down to do the New York Times crossword puzzle, she could complete it in 2 minutes or what, I don’t know, what’s a fast time?

[00:36:56] Amy Sandler: Kim, just just to clarify, I think did you mean that tells not shows? 

[00:36:59] Kim Scott: Yeah. You, you want to, you, you want to, you want to show, don’t tell. Yes. Sorry. I conflated the two.

[00:37:08] Amy Sandler: That’s okay.

[00:37:09] Kim Scott: Confused them, whatever. Uh, so, so you wanna make sure that, that you’re not saying, she is, or he is, or they are X. You wanna talk about what they did. Because what’s fundamental to all of this is not an attribution attribute, but a growth mindset. 

[00:37:30] Amy Sandler: Yep. 

[00:37:30] Kim Scott: And if you believe that if there’s a problem, the other person can fix it and you can help them fix it, then we’re cooking with gas. But, uh, but otherwise, if the person made a mistake, then they are stupid, then that, then there’s no point in telling them about the mistake. ‘Cause all it proves is something they can’t, that that’s difficult to change, so. 

[00:37:52] Amy Sandler: Yeah. And a growth mindset, I love what you’re saying actually. ‘Cause what Jason and I were talking about was, for me at least, and Jason, I won’t speak for you, but the journey from a fixed mindset, and again, credit to Carol Dweck in the book Mindset, but the journey from fixed mindset to growth mindset for myself, but also having that mindset for other people that they are capable of growth as well and empowering them. So with that, are we ready to wrap up? 

[00:38:18] Jason Rosoff: Let’s do it. 

[00:38:19] Amy Sandler: Well, it’s time for our Radical Candor checklist. These are tips you can use to start putting Radical Candor into practice. Tip number one, remember solicit feedback before you give it. If someone is doing something that’s bothering you, remain open to the possibility it might in fact be your behavior that’s contributing to the situation. You can use these triggers as warnings to signal to you, as Kim said, get curious,

[00:38:50] Kim Scott: Not furious.

[00:38:52] Amy Sandler: Maybe you could still get a little furious, but, well, sometimes we might get a little furious, so I’ll just change that to, um,

[00:38:58] Kim Scott: When furious, get curious.

[00:39:02] Amy Sandler: I love, that’s even better when furious, get curious.

[00:39:08] Kim Scott: Tip number two, when an argument is about an issue, keep it about the issue. Making it about person rather than the thing you’re talking about, will only make the issue harder to resolve. Instead of saying, you are wrong, say, I think that’s wrong.

[00:39:25] Jason Rosoff: Tip number three, instead of saying you’re a genius or you are careless, for either praise or criticism, think about using the CORN method to keep your feedback about the context, where and when the thing happened, the observation, what you noticed about the thing, the result, or the impact that it had on you or other people who were there, and the next steps. That will help you avoid making it, uh, about the person’s personality or something about that person’s personality and focus on the behavior, which is much more changeable. 

[00:39:58] Amy Sandler: Tip number four, if you like me, are someone who struggles with self-criticism, it could be really helpful to give your self, as well as the people around you, more compassion. So self-compassion, as well as greater compassion for those around you. And there’s three ways to really cultivate self-compassion. The work of Kristin Neff, which we’ll put in the show notes, more kindness towards yourself rather than judgment, A sense of common humanity, that we’re all human, we all struggle. And finally, developing a greater non-judgmental awareness, more mindfulness rather than over identifying with the issues.

[00:40:36] For more tips, you can go to RadicalCandor.com/resources and download our learning guides to help you practice Radical Candor. Show notes for this episode are at RadicalCandor.com/podcast, and if you like what you hear, go ahead, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. If you’ve got a career topic you want us to discuss, go ahead email us, podcast@RadicalCandor.com. Now, normally I talk about our swag, which you still of course can get on the shop link at RadicalCandor.com, but we have got a very special announcement for you. And with that over to our co-founders, Kim and Jason.

[00:41:16] Kim Scott: We are so thrilled to be a part of the Sessions by Masterclass to bring Radical Candor to all Masterclass members. If you are not yet a member of Masterclass, you can get 20% off a new membership when you sign up using a link Masterclass.com/RadicalCandor. 

[00:41:38] Jason Rosoff: And the thing that I’m most excited about for Masterclass, for the folks who are familiar with Radical Candor, is we got to go even deeper than we typically do in a lot of our public facing things. Like Kim’s keynote is typically an hour, but the session that we did, you know, on Masterclass is closer to 3 hours in total runtime. It includes not only Kim’s, uh, wisdom, but conversations with me, uh, with Lele, one of our Candor coaches, with a fantastic actor, uh, who did improv scenes with, uh, with Lele named Berto. And in those scenes, you get to see people try and fail at Radical Candor. And that is one of the best ways that I know to learn, is to see other people, uh, uh, trying it, struggling with it, uh, and then eventually, uh, succeeding by applying the principle. So if you have a couple of hours and you wanna dive a bit deeper on Radical Candor, check it out. Masterclass.com/RadicalCandor. 

[00:42:39] Kim Scott: Thanks everyone.

[00:42:41] Amy Sandler: Thank you. Bye for now.

[00:42:42] Kim Scott: Bye.

[00:42:44] Amy Sandler: Thanks for joining us. Our podcast features Radical Candor co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff, is produced by our Director of Content Brandi Neal and hosted by me Amy Sandler. Music is by Cliff Goldmacher. Go ahead and follow us on Twitter @Candor and find us online RadicalCandor.com.

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Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer.

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